Trey Tucker On Why Young Men Are Being Forgotten

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: The Determined Society with Shawn French
Episode: Trey Tucker On Why Young Men Are Being Forgotten
Release Date: March 2, 2026
Guest: Trey Tucker, Therapist and Author of Tough Enough

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Overview

This episode of The Determined Society features a powerful, candid discussion between host Shawn French and therapist/author Trey Tucker. The centerpiece is Trey’s new book, Tough Enough, and a probing conversation on why young men are being overlooked by society, the impact of father figures, and the emotional injuries and patterns that hold men back. Expect transparency, vulnerability, and actionable takeaways on mental health, personal growth, and parenting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Journey to Tough Enough and the Mission for Young Men

• Why Write the Book?
  • Trey explains the inspiration: "So many young guys have been coming to see me and they have no guides. Guys in their 20s have been tossed aside. That pisses me off. So I thought, well, if they want a book, I'm going to write something for a group that has been forgotten or worse, like, they've been told, we don't really need you." ([01:31])
• A Book for a Forgotten Generation
  • Trey wants to reach men in their twenties, a demographic he says has been neglected not only by media but even by the publishing world.
  • Not about sensationalism, but addressing a real crisis in male mentorship and father figures: "There's a father or father figure crisis going on in the country." ([13:43])

2. The Value of Father Figures and Mentoring

• The Stats & Realities
  • "One in three households has no dad present... If somebody does grow up with either a father or a father figure, they are 130% more likely to take on a leadership role." ([25:32])
• Female-Headed Households: The Honest Plea
  • "Most of the comments that come from women, they're literally asking, please help. How do I raise my son on my own? And then how do I get him around father figures?" ([24:37])
• Practical Guidance: Sports, mentors, and coaches can fill gaps when a biological father isn’t present.

3. Sean and Trey’s Parallel Journeys: Corporate Work, Emptiness, and Pivoting to Purpose

• Sean’s Experience: Left a lucrative sales career, haunted by emptiness and craving direct impact.
• Trey’s Experience: From corporate world to teaching, then to therapy after realizing a deeper calling.
  • "Even a bad day in my current world is better than any good day in that [corporate] world." ([08:27])
• Finding Fulfillment: Both emphasize the deep satisfaction in impacting lives directly, whether through therapy, coaching, or podcasting.

4. Normalizing Vulnerability: Men’s Emotional Realities

• Owning Flaws:
  • "I fall short, you know, so much. And I fell short yesterday... I could have done better." ([27:11])
  • Trey commends this openness: "I don't think 25% of men would be able to verbally say that stuff out loud. They're going to come up with some excuse or they're going to blame." ([29:03])
• Impact of Shame and Internal Injuries:
  • Trey reframes “trauma” as “injuries” to better resonate with men: "Those moments from your past... left injuries inside of you... It’s the same cycle that keeps going over and over." ([36:54])
  • Men often act from wounds and limiting labels adopted in childhood or teen years.

5. Emotional Management, “Cavemen,” and Breaking Cycles

• The Caveman Metaphor:
  • Trey explains our subconscious, emotional brain as a “caveman” whose job is survival, but can trip us up: "He thinks that anything might kill you... He was helpful back in the days when we were out hunting, but now... he kind of has no job.” ([41:13])
• Patterns of Reactivity:
  • Shawn’s ‘explosions’ at home, especially frustration with his daughters, becomes a case study on men’s emotional triggers.
  • Trey: “You’re never going to be perfect enough to never have the reaction. So if you keep beating yourself up for having the reaction, nothing’s going to change. But if you remove yourself, so that you don’t do more damage, then you can break the pattern.” ([45:05])
• Practical Tools:
  • Physical removal (e.g., “I jumped in the shower...I went to the grocery store.” — [45:49])
  • Using cold/hot sensations, belly breathing, and simple rituals to calm the nervous system.
  • Recognizing emotions pass in about 90 seconds if you don’t feed them: "If you can remove yourself for at least that long...you can break the pattern." ([47:28])

6. Talk Therapy, Subconscious Work, and the Limits of Words

• Talk Therapy Limitations:
  • “Talk therapy generally does not work for men. A conversation works for men... But in terms of making the actual changes at the root, talk therapy doesn’t get it. The roots are in the subconscious brain.” ([40:06])
• Alternative Methods:
  • Trey introduces EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) and Internal Family Systems (IFS) as more effective for trauma/injury.
  • “IFS is the only type of therapy that really broke through for me.” ([43:12])
  • The concept of having “parts” (like in Disney's Inside Out), and making peace with or understanding them.

7. The Cycle of Achievement and Feeling ‘Not Enough’

• Achievements vs. Fulfillment:
  • Trey: “People who reach big goals, within three months of reaching that goal, they go back to their normal level of happiness...” ([60:30])
  • Both discuss the perpetual striving for “enough”—success, achievement, being seen—can rob present joy.
• Shawn’s Core Wound:
  • “My whole life, I grew up as a baseball player...I never materialized into what was expected...when I feel stagnant in growth or feel like we’re not being seen, nothing will trigger me more.” ([58:50])
• Trevor’s Story of Self-Acceptance:
  • “There’s never going to be a finish line if that’s how we’re shaping things.” ([63:04])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fatherhood and Men’s Craving for Guidance:
  “[Men in their 20s] have been tossed aside, that pisses me off...I’m going to write something for a group that has been forgotten.” — Trey Tucker ([01:31])
• On Emotional Ownership:
  "Even a bad day in my current world is better than any good day in that world.” — Trey Tucker ([08:27])
• On Admitting Flaws:
  "I need to be better. I don't think 25% of men would be able to verbally say that stuff out loud." — Trey Tucker ([29:03])
• On Reactivity and the Caveman:
  "When the caveman feels threatened, he thinks you’re literally going to die." — Trey Tucker ([41:11])
• On the Poison of Achievement Addiction:
  “There’s never going to be a finish line if that’s how we’re shaping things.” — Trey Tucker ([63:04])
• On Parenting and Self-Growth:
  “I’m damn sure responsible for not passing on that generational thing to my kids.” — Shawn French ([52:03])
• On the Call for Positive Role Modeling:
  “Let’s start that wave of highlighting good people and giving love to where it matters the most.” — Shawn French ([69:37])

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Important Timestamps

• Book Inspiration and Forgotten Young Men: [01:31], [15:07]
• Fathers, Father Figures, and Leadership Stats: [23:40], [25:32]
• Shawn’s Self-Reflection & Parenting Challenges: [27:11] – [36:54]
• Caveman Model & Emotional Management: [41:11], [45:05], [47:28]
• Talk Therapy vs. Subconscious Work: [40:06], [43:12]
• Achievement, Identity, and ‘Never Enough’ Mindset: [58:50] – [63:04]
• Episode Wrap-Up, Book, and Contact Info: [68:29] – [69:37]

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Additional Resources & How to Connect

• Trey’s Website: www.RuggedCounseling.com
• Book: www.ToughEnough.com
• Instagram: @RuggedCounseling

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Final Words

This episode goes beyond surface advice—Shawn and Trey unpack the inner worlds of men, how past injuries shape present reactions, why mentorship for young men is urgent, and how everyone can break cycles and seek growth. It’s a recommended listen for parents, coaches, mentors, and anyone invested in the mental-health and development of the next generation.

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“You’re never going to be perfect enough to never have the reaction... But if you remove yourself so that you don’t do more damage, then you can break the pattern.” — Trey Tucker ([45:05])

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Here we go.

[A]

You did the stitch where you're reacting to this man trying to toughen his son up by kicking him in the ribs. And I'm like, this son of a bitch is genius. I thought you were gonna get torched. And like, everybody's like, book, book, book, book. I can relate to that because when I watched it, I said, sean, are you raising a strong young man? Like, I'm not gonna kick mine. Walk me through the journey of the book.

[B]

So many young guys have been coming to see me and they have no guides. Guys in their 20s have been tossed aside. That pisses me off. And so I thought, well, if they want a book, I'm going to write something for a group that has been forgotten or worse, like, they've been told, we don't really need you.

[A]

I mean, look what's going on in the world right now. All the shootings, all everything. And a lot of them points to, like, not having a present father figure. This is a big deal.

[B]

It's heartbreaking because most of the comments that come from women, they're literally asking, please help. How do I raise my son on my own? And then how do I get him around father figures?

[A]

What up, everybody? We are back with another episode of the Determined Society. Before I introduce today's guest, I want to remind you, yes, once again, I need you to go to thedeterminedsociety.com, sign up for our newsletter and get free access to our school account where there's gonna be a lot of coaching there for free behind the scenes and a lot of different things that you don't see on the Social platforms, and the opportunity to be locked in with our newsletter every single week that will give you insight on amazing episodes. Like our guest today, my boy, Trey Tuckard. Listen, this guy, I ran into him on Instagram. He was doing these podcast ratings and he. He'd flash the big shows across the screen and he rate them and tell them why he gave them that rating. And I just instantly loved this man because that's a brave thing to do. But what I learned about him is that his mind worked differently than everybody else's. He rated shows based on the amount of value that he was getting or the value that was presented to the audience and not what the Internet wanted him to say. So I truly appreciated him. But I got again with me, my boy Trey. And. And listen, he is an amazing dude. He is a therapist and just an awesome guy. Even though he went to the University of Florida, I'm not going to hold it against him, but, you know, you were. You guys are going to love this conversation today. And he recently came out with a book, Tough Enough. And I do have it in my hands, and I'm super blessed to have it. It's about honing your habits. Cultivate purpose and forge genuine strength. And that, you know, the genuine strength thing is. Is something that I think is really needed today. But, man, let's get into it. Welcome to the show, dude.

[B]

Thank you, brother. Good to be here. I've been looking forward to this.

[A]

Dude, come on, man. You drove all the way from Nashville just to see a little old me, man?

[B]

Little old you?

[A]

Whatever, dude. I tell you what, when. When guests come from wherever they're at, to actually sit down with me, it just. It makes me feel so good because I remember a time when they wouldn't.

[B]

Yeah, I bet.

[A]

You know, so thank you for being here, dude.

[B]

Hey, thank you for having me. But you're right that the effort to make face to face interaction, whether it's for a show or any sort of relationship, that resonates with people, because face to face is so rare anymore.

[A]

Yeah, dude, it is, man. Covid screwed all that up. It sure did. But it helped out in a lot of ways, right? It. It got people to be home. And corporations learned that their employees can make money at being home. And yeah, I got this nice little hybrid work situation that a lot of people have now, so it works. But listen, man, for the audience that doesn't know about you, why don't you walk them through a brief 50, 000 foot level of your background, what you're doing, and where you're going.

[B]

Yeah. So I am a therapist now, but I wasn't always. I started out in the corporate world and learned a ton, met some amazing people, some amazing mentors, but every day it just felt empty. It just felt like I was pursuing something that didn't really have meaning, fulfillment to it. And so I jump into education, start teaching and coaching. And then as I start looking back, I'm thinking, okay, these students are bringing me stuff that I don't really know how to help them with. You know, deeper life questions. Looking back, even from middle school on, I always love to listen more than talk. And I always loved figuring out, like, what makes somebody tick, like, why did that guy get so successful? And then like, for example, there's a new Elvis movie out. I was always fascinated with Elvis because he was like one of those guys, like he made it to the apex and then he tore it all down. Like, what's that? How did that happen? So I just always got fascinated by reading biographies and watching documentaries, just figuring out why people did what they did. And so, like a dummy, it finally hit me, like, I need to be a therapist. So I go, I go back mid career, get the counseling masters, and ever since I have no problems of my own because, like, I can fix them all just like that.

[A]

I wish it worked like that.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

No, yeah.

[B]

The little secret is every therapist really goes into that field to fix themselves first and then we can help other people. But that's, that's what I do now. And like, thankfully they're, they're. I have a little niche in the therapy world. It's like there are, there are not a ton of male therapists and then there aren't a ton of male therapists who just kind of talk normal. Like, I hate lingo, like therapy speak. I just much rather talk. I mean, you and I, we're both played baseball, so I'd rather talk. Like I'm talking to a baseball player in a therapy session. And I think that that helps me reach guys, that, and women too, that otherwise would have no interest in psychology.

[A]

That's such a good point, dude. Because when I'm being coached by somebody or I'm talking to a friend or a therapist, you know. You know, therapy is a tricky thing for me because, you know, I always jump to talk. Therapy doesn't work for me and it truly doesn't the way it's been done. Yeah. You know, tell me about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why did you feel that way? Like, look, my fucker, I don't know why I felt that way because if I did, I wouldn't be feeling this way, you know? But I need you to talk to me normal, like, how do I fix this? Like, just shoot me between the eyes and tell me what my problem is. And, you know, it was just one of those things, man, that I truly respect. And then, you know, leaving the corporate world and doing something scary like this, that. That's a big move. What. What corporate business were you in and what did you do before this?

[B]

So this is going to age everybody that I that is probably listening, but there was an old portrait studio company called Olin Mills.

[A]

I know Olin.

[B]

You know? Yes. Okay, let's go.

[A]

Yes. Hell yeah, bro.

[B]

So, like, I was their only new hire in five years.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is when digital was taken over and they weren't adapting well. And so all of a sudden I show up and everybody's looking at me like, are we growing again? Why are they hiring you? And it was. There was no match because I was a 22 year old fresh out of college, and the target market for Olin Mills is young moms with kids. So how am I going to create marketing materials for them? Because that was my job is to create marketing materials for them. Like, I don't know why it happened, but I'm glad it did because now I have the perspective of even a bad day in my current world is still better than any good day in that world. So. And the people were great. It's just like I say, the job wasn't fulfilling. So anytime I feel like I'm complaining, I'm like, nah. Like, let me put myself back in those days because now I'm good.

[A]

It's so funny because you're talking to your about your story of why you left because you didn't feel fulfilled. You felt empty.

[B]

Right.

[A]

See, I have the same story. And that's how this started. Right. It started in me feeling so empty and depressed. Like, what am I actually doing right now? Like, what? Like, okay, great. I have this amazing sales career and I'm. And I'm helping. It was. I was in medical sales and I was also in payroll sales. But it's like, I'm helping people. I'm helping business owners or I'm helping patients, you know, the end user, you know, recover, you know, with less pain and quicker, you know, by different intraoperative therapies. Like, but was. Was a dead end for me, man. And. And I was. I was getting so angry and so bored.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And this thing came up and it was just like, okay, this is what I want to do.

[B]

You probably get to see the direct impact for what you're doing now. Compared to then you. There were two or three people in between. The impact.

[A]

Yeah. You know what, man? Like, the impact is funny with. With this business. Right? Because, you know, for a long time, the people closest to you are silent because, like, what are you doing, dumbass? Oh, you're doing a podcast. Okay. Until it works. Right. And then they start coming around and listening. Hey, it's actually pretty good, you know, But. But for me, the direct impact comes few and far between. And you know what I'm going to say to the audience right now and to you? I want them to take advantage of it. Because when someone goes and leaves me a written review on Apple that I don't know, that is the highlight of my day. I got one from this lady. It said biz lady, and I don't know who it is. So if you're listening, you obviously listen to the show. Thank you.

[B]

Your.

[A]

Your review made my day, and it was so sweet, and it was just like, Sean has a way of talking to his guests and relating, and for me, I'm like, damn, she sees me. Yeah, she sees what I'm doing here, and that's the value we're trying to give. So those moments right there, those direct impacts or the DMs. Hey, I'm battling brain cancer right now. I've been listening to your show. I mean, wow. Like, that, for me, is why I do it.

[B]

Yeah. There's no higher honor.

[A]

No, there's not. Yeah, it's incredible, dude. I mean, it's just, you know, what about you, man? Like, when you're able to help somebody get through some tough shit, like, how does that make you feel?

[B]

Oh, I mean, it's not even work. I can count on one hand the number of days in the last 10 years as a therapist where I felt like, all right, this is actual work. I just get to do what I'm wired to do. And, yeah, like, I get up in the morning, I don't need a snooze button. And it's not because I'm so disciplined. It's just, like, I'm looking forward to doing this. And so walking with somebody face to face, one on one, there's nothing more fulfilling. And I've done, like, speeches and all the things that seem like they're going to be, like, the. The top of the chain, but there's just nothing better than sitting with somebody, especially when they have that aha moment. And Then you see the next few days and weeks where their life turns around.

[A]

Like, when you see someone's lights come on right in front of you, it's like, there it is. Like, that is the moment, you know? And, dude, to your point, man, you've been on a ton of different press. Npr, some. Some big tv. You've been on stages. And that is. That wasn't even a prerequisite for you coming onto the show. I didn't know it until recently. I'm like, oh, damn, this is really, really cool. Right? Like, for me, I wanted you on the show because I vibed with you, right? And I loved your approach. And, dude, I love your freaking content. Dude, it is so damn good and must come from your marketing background, but you've built a really good platform that I. That I know speaks to men most importantly and can speak to women, too. But, you know, you wrote this book and tough enough, and you did this. You put this.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

Oh, my God, dude, I'm trying to find words, but you did the stitch, I guess, or something like that, where you're reacting to this man trying to toughen his son up by kicking him in the ribs. And when I watch it, I'm like, I can't comment on this one yet. I gotta. I gotta remove myself and see what is trying to be said here. But the overall message was, is like, you know, not enough fathers are raising strong young men. And I think that's true. Like, I'm not gonna kick mine in the rib cage, but I understand that. I. But, dude, like, I saw it and I'm like, this son of a bitch is genius because I thought you were gonna get torched. And like, everybody, like, whatever the. The comment was for the book, I can't even remember. It was like, book, book, book, book, book. I'm like, there's like 400 people here that just asked for his book. And so it was just. Let's walk through that, man. Like, how. How scary was that putting that out, by the way?

[B]

You know, it wasn't scary because I've. I've seen that scenario, not that video, but I've seen other versions of that in real life so often that I know, number one, I'm going to get disagreed with. And I'm okay with that because I'm not trying to be sensationalistic or anything like that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I truly see that there is a father or father figure crisis going on in the country. And then I see how many young guys are struggling and craving that most of them don't even know they're craving it. So I just knew, all right, this is a visual representation of what we're missing in the country. And so I wasn't nervous at all. I was excited just because I knew nobody, not nobody, very few people talk about this stuff. And so I at least wanted to kind of throw that out there just to get something stirred up. Because like you said, I knew there was a hunger. Like, there's a. There was a story of a buddy of mine, he's in meetings all day in his office, walks out onto the street, and all of a sudden, smells from food trucks hit him. And in that moment, he had been so busy until then, he smells that food. He realized, I'm so hungry. But he didn't know he was hungry until he got the hint of it. And that's the kind of stuff that was shown in that video where, oh, we need this. And we didn't know we needed it.

[A]

No, I can relate to that because when I watched it and then thought further, thought a lot further on it, I said, sean, are you raising a strong young man? You know, like, I feel I am, but, you know, I do it a little bit differently. But, you know, it made me think, you know, and that's what I really love about what you put out there. You make people think, man. And I think that is so important.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

So walk me through the journey of the book.

[B]

Yeah, the. The book, it. It basically happened because so many young guys have been coming to see me and they have no guides, no in person guides, and then no real content. So the publisher came to me and I wasn't even thinking of writing a book. Like that just wasn't on my list of goals. So they came to me saying, hey, we want you to write a book for men. And I was like, okay, but they're thousands of books for men, so why would I write another one? Because there's plenty of good ones. And then two things hit me. I can't get a. I have a list of like 10 to 15 books that I would love for every guy to read, but reading is so in decline right now. I knew that's never going to happen. So what if I took the best of those books and put it into one? And then I have always known that guys in their 20s have been tossed aside and that that pisses me off. And so I thought, well, if they want a book, I'm going to give them. I'm going to write something for a group that has been forgotten. And as best as I can tell. And as best as Harper Collins, the publisher can tell, there's not been a book written for guys in their 20s. And so that like this, this book is like, it's not going to be this mass wide seller that goes on Oprah or anything. But I don't care. I want to reach guys that have feel like they're either forgotten or worse, like they've been told, we don't really need you. Like,

[A]

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And from now until the end of March, in your first order, you get 15% off your first order. Not every order. So if you're going to buy some stuff, load up there in that cart for that first time and you get 15% off, go to therabody.com and at checkout, the code is determined. So let me know how you guys like it. Until then, stay determined, dude. And what a great publisher. Harper Collins. Like, dude, is this your. This your first book?

[B]

First one, yeah, man. And there's. There's such kind people. I love them.

[A]

They're great. I've worked with our. Their PR department on some guests and things like that. They're a great group and. Great group. But no, I think you're right, you know, because when I look back to my 20s and I'm in college and I'm out playing baseball, and I'm not going to say my dad stopped fathering me, but there was a big disconnect because I was out doing what I was doing, right? I'm in Louisiana, you know, he's here. And it's like those critical years, man, are so important because if you do not have direction, I mean, look what's going on in the world right now. All the shootings, all everything. And a lot of them points to, like, not having a present father figure. This is a big deal.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But yet there's a big narrative going around. Like, I can raise my son on my own. He doesn't need a father. And I don't know that life, you know, And I'm not gonna judge it. I. I will say that there's so many strong women out there that are doing such a fine job, but also, a man can't do what a woman can in raising, and a woman can't give what a father can. They can give a ton.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I don't want that to be misconstrued. Ladies, I truly believe that you guys are way better than us. But there's certain things that a young boy needs from his father. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know why it has to be a competition between men and women.

[A]

Because, you know, social media, dude, we're going to get torched on that one right here.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Maybe we'll put that out as a clip because we're going to get torched on it, and that's okay. Yeah, but. But yeah, man, it should not be a competition.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, it shouldn't be.

[B]

Yeah. Well. And because it's complimentary, it's like peanut butter and jelly. Like, you got to have both to. To complete the sandwich here. And so you talk about the women in the comment sections or women saying, like, I don't need a man. Most of the comments that are in those type of videos that come from women. It's heartbreaking because they're literally asking, please help. How do. How do I raise my son on my own? And then how do I get him around father figures? And I don't have enough room in a comment to really help guide them. And so I just, I pray, like, God, help them find somebody that's going to actually show them the way in person. And I give them a couple tips in the comments. As much room as it allows. But the stats, I always like to flip it. Positive, but we'll start with negative. One in three households has no dad present. And then there's no way of telling. Like, with the dads that are present, there's no way of telling how good of a dad they are. But you and I anecdotally know it's probably pretty low.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. But the, the positive side is if somebody does grow up with either a father or a father figure, they are 130% more likely to take on a leadership role. In things like a company, a team, anything a little bit later in life, 100, 130% more likely just from having a father figure don't even have to be real dad.

[A]

And so, like, that, right there is an important point for the audience, too. So, like, you know, there's a lot of different programs, right? Like, that you can go out there and get mentors for your sons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But sports. Sports is a big deal. Sports is a big deal because coaches become father figures. And we both live that life as coaches. And, you know, I didn't know until today you coach baseball. Right. And so, like, all of this makes sense, right? The easy connection, the. I mean, we're. We're in line with our ideologies here. Both baseball coaches like baseball. Baseball dudes. You can. Once you meet someone, you know, someone's a baseball dude. Right. But for me, there was been. There was a lot of different mentors through me playing baseball that taught me things that my father didn't. That, you know, maybe taught me patience, maybe, you know, taught me certain things on how to respond instead of react. So, you know, again, there's many ways to get that mentorship in your life, and it doesn't have to be a father. I mean, look, I grew up without a biological father, okay? And my mom married my dad, who I call my. I mean, he's my dad. My dad. And I was, like, eight or nine. That's my dad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, but I know what that's like, and I just think it's, you know, when I look at my children, you know, I'm not perfect.

[B]

Shocker.

[A]

I fall short, you know, so much. And I fell short yesterday, you know, I. I flipped my lid, you know, and I'm paying for that today because I look back at it, and it's like, I could have done better. Like, I could have done so much better. And it's funny because I never lose it on my son. It's my daughters. I don't know why that is. I think I know why that is. I. I just feel like with my daughters, like, sometimes I just can't win.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's like.

[B]

Can't connect fully.

[A]

Like, no, I can. I mean, like, I'm super close with them, but it's like, I feel like I. You can even go down to, like, what I cook for dinner. Like, there's only so many times, like, you can hear, like, I don't like that, or like, oh, that's what we're having. It's Like, I've just spent the last two hours doing this, you know? So, like, I don't claim to be this all the time. I am a human being, and I struggle. I think one of the biggest things that I have to work through is simply that, like, the response instead of the react. And it's so hard when you're in the middle of it. But it's like, my wife said this to me yesterday. She goes, if you can't control your emotions as an adult, how do you expect your children to? It's like, it really pissed me off at the moment.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Nobody wants to hear that.

[A]

It's like, dude, I'm. This is like 3% of my whole life that this happens. I'm 97% spot on. But, you know, and then I think another emotion that comes is, like, the disappointment.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

You know, like, I. I'm so disappointed in myself when. When. When things like that happen.

[B]

Can I pat you on the back, though?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

So the first thing you said, even before you went into the story, you owned up, I'm flawed. I lose my temper. Even before you talked about it, on who you were losing it on, like. And you said the quote. I think you literally said, I need to be better. I don't think 25% of men would be able to verbally say that stuff out loud. They're going to come up with some excuse or they're going to blame. Like, I was just talking to somebody's dad the other day, and it was after. It was after a sporting event, and he ripped his son. I mean, literally called him a pussy. Yeah, after. And this was after. After the dude had gotten injured and kept playing and lost because of the injury. Dad still calls him a. And I talked to him. I tried to keep calm because I wanted to.

[A]

You wanted to reach. Yeah, you. Yeah, I know what you wanted.

[B]

Exactly. And I just said, hey, what was your goal out of that conversation? And of course he's not going to answer that. He's too. He's too defensive. And I said, if you had it to do over again, would you do it differently? And he goes, no, because he needs to be tough. And, like, it's. It was always just pointing outward. So the fact that you pointed inward and said, like, I mess up. I got to get better, that separates you from so many men right now. Sadly, it's easy to separate ourselves from a lot of men these days. But the other thing you said in terms of the. I forget the word you said when you're talking about your Daughters. But there is a reason that so many men are workaholics is because we get the respect at work, because we can control the outcome so much or at least have more of an influence over the outcomes. But when we get home, especially with daughters, we got no control over outcomes, and we figured out how we got there. So we, we feel disrespected and we don't really know it. So we tend to start withdrawing from that, from the home situations, and stay more at work where we kind of get that sense of like, okay, I can make a difference. I can get the outcomes I want.

[A]

That's a great point, man. I mean, it's a really good point because it's like there's only so much a man can take. Right. And, you know, over the last month, you know, I've been told by my wife, like, hey, you're, you're escalating a little more. I know you're stressed. Like, you know, you're taking it out on me and it's hurtful. And I'm like, I don't feel like I am. And you know, I look back at it today, I was like, okay. Like, I see it. There are reasons, and it's not what she or they think. It's not the stress from the job. It's certain stressors to where I feel I'm falling short at home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not trying to. It's like I cook every meal. You know, I make sure the, the kitchen's cleaned. I make sure, like, you know, I help out with the laundry when I can. I, I, But I just feel like sometimes it's like it's not enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's hard for a man because I am so busy. I am doing a lot. I'm constantly moving. If I get a text during the day, can I got an order from Target or Sephora, can you go pick it up? Like, that's taking time out of my day.

[B]

Yeah. That you don't have.

[A]

That, that I don't have. But I, but I, but I do it because I want to serve and I'll get very agitated if I feel underappreciated.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's so common. We, we do need to be appreciated. It's like earlier you talked about people feeling seen and heard, whether it be in the comment sections, whatever. Like, that's what a man needs. It's like there's old book called love and respect and we need both. But generally speaking, women need a little more love than respect. And generally, men need A little more respect than love. And so if we just hear those words, like, hey, thank you, like, I appreciate what you're doing, we'll run through a wall for somebody, especially our wife. So, yeah, yeah, that you're, you're normal. Congratulations, I'm a normal man. But the pro. The other issue is whenever we blow up or we give some sort of reaction, if it's generally like, on a scale of 1 to 10, if it's like a 6 or above, that's the indication that it's not really about what's happening in this moment.

[A]

One billion percent. Yeah, one billion percent.

[B]

We carry around labels from, from our past and limiting beliefs. And so whatever happened in this moment probably hit that bruise that hasn't fully healed yet. And our nervous system doesn't know time. So it thinks that we're like in this moment, but it's also when we're 8 years old, so we just get all reacted and that's a hard thing

[A]

to unravel too, and unwind. So for the audience there, how, how does one go through? Because for me, like when that situation. Situation happened, it was like it was a 7.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't 8, 9 or 10, but it was, it was border. It was in between a six and a seven for sure. I'm gonna give myself a seven on that one.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

And you know, to a point where I barely spoke the rest of the day and this morning. Yeah. You know, and, and then I think, you know, as a father, it's like I just sent my kids off to school, you know, and you never know what's gonna happen in this day and age. Now again, I'm not saying that I had a bad morning with my children. I didn't, you know, I loved on them, but I wasn't 100 me. I was feeling a little wounded from last night. And also the shame of disappointing your wife two days before your anniversary.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

Yeah. So tomorrow's our seven year wedding anniversary. And you know, so that'll be after this comes out. It'll be the, you know, February 21st is our. Sorry, 24th is our anniversary. And I was just like, how do you fuck that up, Sean? Like, how do you, how do you honestly fuck it up so bad in that moment? And everything was fine, that one moment bomb goes off and it's like, what's wrong with him? Well, your guess is as good as mine. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah, you know, can I, can I dig on that? Yeah, please.

[A]

I don't want to go for it.

[B]

I want to pry here.

[A]

No, go for it. That voice is a job interview, by the way. I'm thinking about hiring you. For real. Let's do it like that. I mean, that is true, but this is not a job. But anyway, go ahead.

[B]

So that voice that said, all right, Sean, how do you that up that badly? Did that sound like somebody from your past? That's first question. And then two. Did that voice carry with it like you're a failure, or was it more of a curious tone, like, how did you mess that up?

[A]

No. So I don't know exactly how to answer your first question. I will say that I grew up around a lot of yelling, and so I think what it does is it brings me there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it's like, I don't want my children to see that, but there's times where I fail, and they do see that. You know, I'm not aggressive. I don't throw. I don't hit things. I don't put my hands on people. But when I go, I go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because there's also a competitive spirit for me. Like, I know. I want you to know that I'm right. Like, this is not the deal. Yeah, right. And so I think it plays on, you know, Shame.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. Like, that. I escalated to that point to where I now responsibly have to do damage control. And those are hard moments, man. I mean, they teach me a lot. What they really teach me is. Is, like, Sean, you have a lot of growing to do, and. And I'm. I'm here for it, man. Like, I'm 47. I got a lot of life left, you know, Hopefully.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

But. But, like, yeah, to me, man, it just plays on. Like, I didn't like to hear that when I was a kid, and then I just put that in front of my kids. So I don't think it was a, you know, a moment of, like, constructive criticism. I think it was more a moment of shame.

[B]

Sure, sure. And I'm glad you used that word shame, because that really is the word. But I've also found that most men don't really want to use that word. They don't really resonate with it. So what I found is two things. The stuff from our past. I hate using the word trauma because it's just so overused.

[A]

It is.

[B]

And guys, again, don't really connect to it. So I use the word injuries because, you know, we're athletes. We know. Some of my favorite conversations were with guys like, hey, what's your worst Injury ever. Like, you can talk for hours. And so, same idea. Like, we get the internal injuries, and just because we can't see them, we think they're not there. But it's those moments from, like, your past when you were around a lot of yelling that left injuries inside of you. And then when something happens that makes you feel like you're not good enough, because that's what shame is. So we got injuries and we got not good enough. What happens is those moments in the past that leave those injuries in us. They also leave messages or, like, meanings that we attach to them or connect to them. And so often it's like, well, because this event happened, that hurt me, this must also mean that I'm not good enough, because if I was good enough, it wouldn't have happened. And so a lot of times the things that we react to in the moment is because, again, it's. It's hitting that old injury. And then the ways we talk to ourself, it usually sounds like, well, you did this again, so that means you're not good enough. And, like, how did you screw this up again? Like, it's. It's the same cycle that keeps going over and over.

[A]

Because, dude, thank you for that. Because, you know, and for the men and even the women listening, like, when you have a certain event happen with your kids, you can't take that back. And what. I think, what makes. I don't want to say me special, but. But, yeah, I'll say one of my gifts is, like, really feeling that and going, do I want to be the reason my daughter's hurting right now? Like, no. You know, and I. And I know my children think the world of me, dude. Like, I. I know. I. I know they know their dad. Those moments, man, like, those are so hard, dude.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, especially as a man.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Because we want to be the superhero and always come through. It goes back to when we're kids. Like, we want to be the guy that provides and protects. So when we don't do that perfectly, yeah, it's gonna hurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we gotta. Again, we gotta deal with the stuff in the past that keeps us in the cycle. Because if you don't deal with the past stuff, it's just. It's basically you arm wrestling with yourself. Like, I gotta do better today. Yeah, but you're. There's still something in you that's injured, and that's what's causing some of the explosive reactions.

[A]

Let's dig into that real quick because it is so Hard for people to go back and see what their past injuries are. And I know you do. EdMr. Does that help?

[B]

It can, yeah. If they're. So there's all kind of different ways to deal with the. The past injuries or traumas. EMDR is a. We don't have to say the fancy full name, but it's.

[A]

I don't even know the full name, dude.

[B]

Yeah. And it's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. There you go, man. So now we'd nerd it out, which I hate doing, but it works here. And let me go back to what you said about talk therapy and how it doesn't work for men. I will. I don't mind getting clipped on this. Talk therapy generally does not work for men. Like a conversation works for men, because we need to talk, we need to be heard. But in terms of making the actual changes at the root, talk therapy doesn't get it.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Because talk therapy hits the front of the brain, which is where our rational, logical thinking is. But the stuff. The roots are in the subconscious brain. And talking doesn't reach the subconscious brain because your subconscious doesn't speak English. Like I put it in the book. I have this. This concept called the caveman. The caveman is responsible for all those, like, outbursts and instincts. And he doesn't speak English. He lives in your subconscious. And so you could sit here and talk it out all day, but it ain't going to touch him because he speaks a different language. He speaks things like EMDR or breathing or other types of movements and therapy. So when I. When I meet with a guy in a. In a truly therapeutic way, we do a lot of talking at first, but that's just to build a connection, of course. And then once they trust me enough, then we get into subconscious stuff. So EMDR is one of those ways. And it works with eye movement, the kind of the back and forth eyes, or tapping with your legs or tapping on your shoulders. Because, again, it's. It's bypassing that brain, the front of the brain, and getting to the roots a whole lot faster.

[A]

What are some other ways that you reach that caveman in the subconscious?

[B]

My favorite way is internal family systems. Like, have you ever seen the movie Inside Out? The first or the second one?

[A]

Yeah, I've seen both of them. Yeah.

[B]

Like that. I. I hate comment or complimenting certain things that Disney does, but that movie, they took five years of my grad school and they shrank it into two hours of a movie. It is genius, really. I mean, I'm sitting there, I took my nieces and nephews to it, and they're laughing and having fun at the same time. I see what they're actually doing with the scene. I'm over there crying, so I'm like, don't look at me. So what happens is, in that movie, they really do show that these characters, there are these parts in us, and the parts are not us. So if we start beating ourselves up, like. Like in. With your explosion, like, yes, it came out of you, but that wasn't the real you that exploded. That was a part in you that felt threatened, like the caveman. And so when the caveman feels threatened, he thinks you're literally going to die. It's like, I'll give you the quick lowdown of the caveman. So he thinks that anything is. Might kill you. And he was really helpful back in the days when we were out hunter gatherers, like, having to kill our food and live out in the wild. Like, if you heard something rustling in the bushes, like, that might be a bear. So you need your caveman to put you into fight or flight mode now. I mean, we're in comfortable indoor settings, so he kind of has no job, but he's. He's pretty dumb. He's really good at the one thing of keeping you alive, but he's sitting there bored, looking for a job. So he'll look at something like a speech or a confrontation, like an uncomfortable confrontation with your wife or your boss, and he thinks, well, if it's uncomfortable, it might kill us. So we gotta. We gotta bow up or we gotta run away. And so we have to do things that are ways that speak to him. So again, ifs is like. It's. You kind of. You close your eyes and it's. It's a. It's a weird, spooky thing at first, but it's not spooky because there's research behind it. But you actually have to have little imaginary conversations in your own head with these little parts. And, like, at first, because I tried it as a client first before I ever got trained in it. And, like, that's the only type of therapy that really broke through.

[A]

Really. And so I've never heard of that one. Internal family systems.

[B]

Yeah, Ifs.

[A]

It's really interesting because, like, to your point, it's like when you. I've never. So again, conversation. Right. Helps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I've never had anybody break down to me what the subconscious is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, okay, it's a cave. It's It's Your caveman doesn't speak English. It's based on wiring.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, past injuries, the fight or flight. I have to protect or I have to kill or be killed.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Because that's what happened way back in the day. You know, that's just an interesting.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's pretty damn cool, man, because I. Now I kind of understand it a little bit more. It's okay. This isn't me. This is that guy, you know? But we gotta. We gotta find ways to tame him.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. And so, like. Because I. I don't find it helpful when he comes out. No, but he'll come out on. He'll come out on certain things, you know, for me. And I love conversations like this because it. It gives more connection with the guests, but also gives audience a really big peek behind me. And I think the one thing that makes this show really good is that I'm not afraid to share it.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

I'm not. Because if it helps someone, cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, dude, these moments, man, when. When they hit, it's usually because I feel threatened.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

It's like you're trying to take something from me. You know, it could be with the business. It could. You know, the show. It could be anything like that. In the moment, I feel like someone's trying to take my. I can't shut it off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and my wife always says, like, you go zero to 60 like that, and it's very few and far between. But when you do, like, I. I got. I got to remove myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's because I'm truly, at that moment in time, overly emotional.

[B]

That's right across from six up October. That's six gone. And what you're. What you just said is you got to remove yourself. That is the exact way to handle it. Like, you're. You're never going to be perfect enough to never h. Have the reaction. So if you keep beating yourself up for having the reaction, nothing's going to change. But if you remove yourself so that you don't do more damage and then just get curious, then you can break the pattern. But so many guys, because of past experiences, again, we beat ourselves up. And the very thing that keeps us stuck is shame or telling ourselves that we're not good enough. Well, what do you think is going to happen next? If that's the voice you keep telling yourself.

[A]

So, so crazy. Like, when that happened, I jumped in the shower.

[B]

Good.

[A]

And I went to the grocery store.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I went to go get the Stuff for dinner. I just needed to get away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And for me, I. I like to get away, but also be productive. I'm not the type of, you know, parent nor husband that's gonna get away and stay away. It's gonna be. Well, I'm gonna. When I get away, I'm still going to do something for the family. You know, I don't. I don't go play around. I don't head to the bar. Because back in the day, man, that's what the caveman did.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, like, you know, I remember, like, if my dad got pissed, he was like, sometimes he would not even come home that night. There was times. There was times, and I've never done that. But, yeah, man, the removal at. In the moment, right. Is so important, but it's also got to be done respectfully.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, like I told the kids, like, hey, I'm just going to the store. I will be back. I will be back. But I think what. What men and even women and just human beings in general, what's so important for us to understand how to, I guess, fix or temper is not ever feeling these emotions, because we're going to feel them, but feel them and then, okay, am I really under threat right now? Is my daughter really trying to kill me? Is what my wife's saying really trying to take my livelihood away? Yeah. And the answer is going to be 100% no. No. But the trick is, how does one not react?

[B]

Yeah, it goes back to what you just said. We got to respond and not react. And here's the thing. An emotion, it. It will run its course through your body because emotion is really just a chemical. It runs through your body in 90 seconds to two minutes. So if you can remove yourself for at least that long, and like you said, do it respectfully, say, hey, I just need a minute so I can come back as my best self, but get away. I love how you said you took a shower. I don't know if you did that on purpose or not, but when you put something, some different temperature on your skin, that's one of the ways to talk to the caveman. Because what he's doing, the reason that we. We actually is that he comes from the subconscious brain and shuts down your front of your brain. So he shuts down your rational thinking.

[A]

Is that why when people get mad, like, sometimes I'll get really mad, I'll say shit that I probably shouldn't.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

That's it. It's literally like if you looked at A brain scan. In that moment when you were reactive, the front of your brain would be almost. It would look like it's dead. Just like the lights turned off in the front of your brain, but the back of the brain would be so lit up and active. So doing something like, step one, remove yourself. Step two, do some sort of temperature on your skin or one little trick I like is you. If you put your hand on your chest for about two minutes and then breathe into your belly so your stomach starts expanding like a balloon, that tells your brain that you're getting a hug. It's. It's wild, like, the way the body is wired. It's like, okay. God knew what he was doing with the whole, like, interesting. All the nervous system and mind body connection. So if you do stuff like that or write out, like, okay, I'm. I'm feeling this. I'm having this thought. Like, when you see it on paper, it's so much less intimidating when you're just like, oh, it's just these little words.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And you slow yourself down enough to let the caveman know that I'm safe and I can lead us, because he thinks in those moments, like, you're about to get killed, I got to take over.

[A]

Do that. It's a crippling feeling, right? Because, you know, there's a level of me that knows that this isn't okay. Yeah. So. Okay. But once you get there, you can't shut it off. Right. And, you know, I think I might have seen it from you, but I. I mean, because you. You triggered a memory. It said, you know that that emotion is going to sit with you for 90 seconds. So if I just make it through 90 seconds. 90 seconds, like, that's a challenge. I mean, that. I mean, it doesn't seem like it would be a Dude, it's a minute and a half, right? Like, figure your out, bro. But, like, dude, that minute and a half feels like an eternity. Oh, it's a battle when you're in it. When you're in it, it's in it. The. The energy that it strips you of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I went to the store, came home. My son goes, hey, can we watch the king of collectibles? You know, the Ken golden? Like, we. Like, I've seen every season, every episode. I love that show.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

But I. I turned it on to my son, and, you know, we sat down, I turned it on for him, and then I was at this one into the sectional. He was way over there, and I'm like, no, I'm gonna go sit down. Like, in the middle, at least. And then when I did, he moved closer to me, and he. And, you know, he's 12, and he put his. He put his head on me and I was gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you know, and it's crazy because my wife says this, too. He's our Zen boy. Like, that kid can heal you in two minutes. He's always been extremely emotionally intelligent. It's scary. Like, he can walk into a room and he can read it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Oh, he can read it, dude. And he knows what you need, you know, how to give it to you. And it. Dude, I felt. I. Dude, like, I. I literally.

[B]

It's a super power.

[A]

I do. Truly, man. Like, I. I passed out. But the. When you expend that emotion and, you know, kind of start coming down from it, bro. Like, I don't know about you, but I'm wiped.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Everybody, I'm done.

[B]

Yeah. And if. If you're not, then it means you're still activated. It means you're still in that adrenaline.

[A]

You're a psychopath.

[B]

Right. Exactly. There's no hope. You're done.

[A]

You're done, bro. You're done.

[B]

But, yeah, like, it. You have to come down from that. Like, any adrenaline rush is going to wipe us out. It just takes so many resources to survive that moment of emotion. So, yeah, once again, you're normal.

[A]

Thank God. But, you know, I think it's one thing to be normal, but, you know, it's still. For me, it's like, okay, it's something to work on. Right? Like, I don't. I don't ever want to be like, okay, well, you know, Trey, you know, my new therapist said it's normal. I'm okay. Like, it doesn't give me permission. Right? And it shouldn't give any man or any woman or any child permission to act a certain way. But I'm damn sure responsible for not passing on that generational thing to my kids.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

And that's the thing that bothers me the most, because at that moment, I fucking failed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, it happens very few and far between. But, you know, I think it's also. Being a good parent is, like, understanding. Like, wait a second. That's not. I. I messed up. And I. When I sit down with my daughter tonight, when I get home, I'm gonna sit down with her and I'm gonna talk to her. No, I mean, we're fine. You know, we. We did the cuddles last night. We got her ready for school. Took her. But Like I still wanted to acknowledge, like, hey, I know you feel I'm stressed and I know you feel that I'm reacting to you in certain ways. Like I want to talk about it because I, I also want her to understand where I'm coming from, you know, so that way she can, you know, make adjustments on her end as well.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And say, okay, this, you know, maybe it's not. To me, it's like so funny. It's like it's not what you say ever, it's how you say it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know. Can I tell you what happened?

[B]

Please.

[A]

Okay, so they had a late breakfast and I made a big breakfast and like all day they, they didn't ask for lunch. And I didn't realize it was 3:30. I'm like, oh shit. I go, Jackie. I go, they didn't eat lunch. She goes, okay. I go, so I call, you know, my son up, I said, hey, go down and talk to your sister. You know, it's already 3:30, so why don't you guys have some fruit, have a snack or something. And then I'm going to go to the store right now and I'm going to make dinner, an early dinner. Well, he told my daughter that. Oh, she didn't like it. She didn't like it. You know, she came, she came up and it wasn't like a, hey, I really would like to eat lunch. Can you please make something small so I can eat? Oh no. She came in with a half Ecuadorian attitude, like half crying, like looking at me and like, and it, it was just like that moment. I'm like, this seven year old is handing me my lunch right now and no pun intended. Well, actually pun intended, but it was like a, I read it differently than my wife, My wife read it as, she's just emotional, she's sad because she didn't have lunch. I'm like, dude, we don't starve our kids here. Like this is, it was one time but it was, it was the, the energy of like you disappointment. Like how it wasn't. If she would have came up and started, you know, like, but daddy, I'm really hungry. Like, I want lunch. I'm like, okay. You know, but it set me off, dude. I went downstairs, cut up some damn meat and threw a mandarin on her plate. I'm like, your lunch is downstairs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then she didn't eat her dinner.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

You know, yeah, but, but that, you know, and people might be listening. Like, Sean, that's not a big deal, but like you don't live in my house. You don't understand my programming. And, and, and how I perceive that moment. Yeah, but like, on a big scale, like, they're right. It's not that big of a deal. But at that moment, it was like, slow your roll. Like, who are you talking to?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and it was on the heels of the night before. You know, I'm making all this. I mean, there was rib eye, there was New York strip, and comes down and my daughter. I don't want people to think that my daughter is not. She's an amazing human being. She's a sweetheart. But she comes down and goes, I don't like lime cilantro rice. And I looked around. I don't like your attitude.

[B]

You know, there.

[A]

But, but here's the key. Here's the key. That only happens when she watches a lot of tv. Ah, yeah, we don't. We don't turn on the TV during the week, and then on the weekends, it's a privilege, you know, It's a. It's not. It's not a privilege. It's. No, it's not. Yeah, it's a privilege. It's like, it's not a given. It's like, okay, at 12 o', clock, you can turn on the TV and watch something. But what happens is my wife and I like to spend time together because we don't ever really get to. During the weeks, we're like, all right, cool, let's let them watch it. Well, then.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know, like, the monster comes out with that little girl, man. The TV does it. Right. And so, like, I don't know. I mean, I'm rambling at this point, but. But, but that's exactly what happened. And, you know, working through it, man.

[B]

Well, one thing you said, like, somebody from the outside looking in, they've got the vantage point of objectivity. So, like, they're in their logical brain, but if they were in your situation, they'd be in their caveman brain. And then the reactions. And your daughter was in her caveman brain because, like, when we're hungry. I don't know about you, when I get hungry, like, it's. It's an urgent situation, even though I know I'm not going to starve. But there's something illogical in me is like, I got to get food. And so. So she was probably having that going on. And then whatever, you know, what she said is. Made you feel like the disappointment was triggered the whole. The old injuries. But here's the thing. And this I Want to connect this to what you posted earlier today on your. On your account on Instagram.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

The. The fact that it made you feel like a disappointment, that tells me that there's something in you that is afraid of being a disappointment again, A part. It's not the real you, but there's a part in there that's afraid of being a disappointment. And usually if we're afraid that something's true about us, usually means something happened in the past that made us feel that way.

[A]

I can break that down for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you for bringing that video up, man, because that.

[B]

I want to keep going with that.

[A]

It was a very raw video.

[B]

Yeah. There's more about it I want to talk about. Yeah, tell me about the display.

[A]

But. But for me, you know, kind of what I'm talking about in that video is, you know, my whole life, I grew up as a baseball player, and I talk about this a lot. Like my identity shift or my identity crisis post sports, whatever. The moment I had my arm injury when I got to lsu, I never materialized into what they thought I was going to be, what I felt I was going to be. And that created this massive crater sized chip on my shoulder to where like, wait a second now, dad might be right, because I'm not going to succeed here and I'm not going to go play in the major leagues. I have no other skills. Right. And so when I feel stagnant in growth or when I feel like we're not being seen because nothing will trigger me more, I'm very protective of this company. I'm very protective of this show. And when I don't feel seen, I take that very personally. And I know I shouldn't. You know, if you look at the base, the four agreements, don't take anything personally. I'm breaking an agreement, right. Because I believe in that. But I'm also human, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, in those moments of where I'm saying, what's the next step? What's the next step? What is this? What is this? How do we grow? How do we grow?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

It's about being seen. It's about breaking through the white noise of the Internet. That's all it is. It's not gonna make my life infinitely better. I mean, it might financially, but I've already got an amazing wife and three beautiful children and a nice house. Like, I've got everything. I've got more than a lot of people have, right? But those moments right there is triggered on the fact that not being seen

[B]

and not performing and the magic part of this is those fears of not being seen and not performing, those probably have come in handy for you in building your success, measurable success. So we can't just take them and throw them out. Like, one of the reasons I'm meeting some of the stuff you're saying or all the stuff that you're saying with grace and curiosity is because you want to grow. And you've said it. You're not looking for excuses and looking to blame. If you were, if this were a real therapy session and you were looking at excuses and looking to blame, I'd be having a whole different approach, of course. But with somebody like you that wants to grow, I'm. I'm just saying, hey, like, it's not really you that's responding in this way. It's not really you that wants whatever happened in the, in that moment, the blow up and all that. So let's get curious about what's really underneath. And so those, that, that concept of not being seen and being a disappointment, I, I'll tell you a couple quick stories to help kind of give some context here. In the book, I talk about this guy. He walked in on the very first session. Young guy, late 20s. He walks in and he's mad. And I've never met him.

[A]

He's already pissed at you.

[B]

He's already pissed. Like, what did I do? And I'm, I'm a little nervous, like, do I need to defend myself? And he, he walks in and he takes out his car keys and he slams them on the table and it's the keys to like a Lamborghini, I think. And he goes, all right, I'll drive a Lamborghini. And he takes out his phone, shows me a picture. He's got a great looking wife, two cute kids. I got a wife, I got two kids, I make, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was per year. And he goes, now tell me, why the blank? Am I not happy? Just silence. I mean, he's like staring holes through me because, like, I'm gonna somehow come through for him in one sentence. So you talk about not wanting to be a disappointment. Yeah, Jesus, I gotta come through for this guy. And so what happened was we, we dug underneath the surface and we realized that he thought because of past events, he thought that if he can just achieve enough that he won't be running away from the label of disappointment anymore because stuff happened to him in his past where he really did feel like a disappointment. And all of his success, he thought, or a part of him thought in his Subconscious, if I just achieve enough, then I don't have to worry about being a disappointment anymore. And that's, that's so much. That's why your video from Instagram resonated with me. I'm like, oh, man, the, the fuel that, that causes us to achieve certain things, we got to keep that because if we throw it out, then we're throwing, throwing out some of our true DNA. But we got to harness it, because the stat is people who reach big goals within three months of reaching that goal, they go back to their kind of normal level of feeling, like, normal level of happiness, normal mood, whatever. So it doesn't last that long. Even the biggest accomplishments, about three months later, you're back to feeling normal. And so Viktor Frankl is a Holocaust survivor. He had a great concept. He said, it's not that achievement is wrong, it's just that you're making yourself the center of the story. And so if we can keep that in mind, it's like, achievement is great. And because two things are true, it's not a but it's an. And achievement's great, and it needs to be aimed at something in service of something bigger than ourselves. But so often we, that caveman takes over and it's like, just a little more, just a little more, a little more. It's like Rockefeller's quote was, how much? Somebody asked him, how much money is enough? He goes, just one more dollar. It's just never enough. And that's one of the reasons I put that, that word enough in the title is because, like, guys feel like we're not good enough, we're not strong enough, not tough enough, not good looking enough, not rich enough, whatever it is. And I'm like, yeah, there's never going to be a finish line if that's how we're shaping things.

[A]

So, so interesting.

[B]

Like when I, when I was fourth grade, I was the only new student in the, in the school. I'm walking in on first day of class, I'm nervous. I don't know if I'm gonna fit in. They're all sitting in a circle. And I walk to the circle, just nervous as I'll get out. And one dude looks up and he goes, damn, I'm glad I'm not looking into a mirror right now. And I'm like, looking back, that's kind of a clever insult from a fourth grader.

[A]

Oh, that's pretty good, man.

[B]

That's right. But in that moment, I wanted to just crawl in a hole and disappear. What I didn't Realize was in that moment talking about injury. It left an injury in me. And I took away some messages or some labels, some limiting beliefs, like, I must be ugly. If I'm the new guy in a situation, I'm probably gonna get rejected. So anytime I. I can't avoid being the new guy, I better just be quiet and not bring any attention to myself.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So, like, for me, not getting rejected was the thing I kept trying to achieve more to outrun, like with you not being a disappointment or not being seen was the thing you potentially keep achieving to try to outrun. It's. It's the same playbook. It's just our caveman trying to solve a problem in a way that's not really helpful.

[A]

You know, it's interesting because my buddy Rich sent me a message on Instagram. He's like, bro, haven't you read Relentless by Tim Grover, like three times? He goes, well, cleaners are always searching. You know, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, that's not a bad thing. And he's right to an extent. And I think, you know, I may have said, you know, people are gonna say whatever to sell books. That is what it is. I do believe that high achievers are always pushing. But my point is, is when it robs you or robs me of the present joy of what has already been, that's a fucking problem.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

Okay. Because I'm going to tell you something. I. I know what's been publicized about Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Those are the two goats. Sorry. In the story, Michael Jordan never lost the finals. Yeah, sorry. You know, three peat twice. And didn't have to move teams. You know who I'm coming after here. He didn't have to move teams and recruit players to win championships.

[B]

Nope. He carried them.

[A]

He carried them. He. He made it work with what he had there. But. But at the same time, like, even with Kobe Bryant, man, like, he would win a championship and then he'd be in the gym the next morning at 4am shooting hoops and trying to get better. Yep. But that does not mean that he was not proud of what happened the night before. And where I get lost in where I think a lot of people get lost, especially in this industry because it's so hard, is like you. You can't help but to compare. Oh, yeah. Like you, like, well, how do I get there? And then it takes away from the growth of last 12 months. That's why I said, like, hey, you know, you gotta, you know, why aren't we looking back at the last 12 months. And seeing if there's any growth. If you haven't grown, well, then you have a serious conversation to have with yourself. But if there's been growth, then you're on the right path. The problem is the caveman wants it now. Yes, I want my kill now. I want to eat now. And that's not the way this shit works.

[B]

Right. Again, he wants it now because he thinks if you don't get it, you'll literally die. So we gotta, like. We gotta treat that urge with some care, as if he's a toddler that just doesn't know any better. Because if we try to squish him with distractions like staying busy at work or substances or sex or, you know, whatever it is, if we try to squish him down and try to ignore him or just silence him, it's. He's gonna get worse.

[A]

He'll pop off.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

He's gonna pop off. It's interesting because, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As we do. I mean, gosh, I could go there forever, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, the thing is, is, like, you mentioned earlier, like, when you have reactions or anybody has reactions, like, for the audience, if you have reactions, right. Or you're. You're popping off or your kids popping off, and you talked about the caveman with me, but then you said that was your daughter's caveman. That may be the fix, because now that could be a trigger for me in a good. In a good way. If they're popping off, like, that's their caveman.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

That's. That's like. I don't say it's a trigger, but it's like a checkpoint. Like, okay, well, now I need to be here for her, because I know what my caveman's like. I can't let mine come out right now. I got to. I got to help her.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

That's really cool, man. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The more we. More we understand how our bodies really work and how our minds really work, we see it in everybody. And, like, sometimes you got to be careful, because nobody, not nobody, but very few people want to have it pointed out in the moment. So you kind of have to keep it to yourself. Be like, oh, yeah, that's their caveman, or like, that's their past injury coming out right here in this moment.

[A]

I'll do. Women love to point out your. In the time. You know, right there in the moment. It's like, not the time, babe. Not the time. Can you wait about seven hours? You know, like, I'm shutting off my phone I don't want to read the text.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You know, but. But look, man, I appreciate you so much, man. This has been so amazing and. And such a great experience having you here, and look forward to getting up to Tennessee to see you.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

I've got a lot of people up there in Nashville, so I need to get up there, but come on, we'll

[B]

get you some boots and jeans.

[A]

Yeah. Come on, man. Some. Some Wranglers.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I can't wear. I can't wear. Can't wear express jeans and Chucks on the cow pasture, huh?

[B]

Yeah, your boots will show through the. Through the jeans. We can have that.

[A]

But no, man, for the audience. You know, obviously, I know where to find you, but let them know. You know your website. I believe it's Rugged counseling dot com, right?

[B]

Counseling dot com. Yep. The book website is toughenough dot com. And then, you know, the socials are easy to find. Just Rugged Counseling on those. But, yeah, I have. This felt like 15 minutes. So this is.

[A]

No, we're going on an hour and 15, actually. Pretty close, right?

[B]

Right, Ryan?

[A]

Like, about an hour. Hour. Yeah. I mean, we're killing it over here.

[B]

Oh, I loved it, you know, so much.

[A]

Absolutely, man. And it's just, again, it was an honor having you here, and sorry it took so damn long to get you here, man, but it's perfect timing. Yeah, man. You know, I just feel like it happens at the right time, and, you know, I truly, you know, enjoy everything that you do. And when I get to see your stuff come up, like, that's my guy. That's my guy right there doing it. You've. You built such an amazing platform. I think the book's gonna sell more than you realize, and we're gonna put it in the show notes, too, so that way the audience can, you know, go check it out, because there's. There's dads here, man, that listen to the show that, you know, I think this book could really help their relationship with their. With their sons or even their daughters. And not that it's broken, but, like, it can always be better.

[B]

Always be better.

[A]

Can always be better. So, dude, thank you so much, man.

[B]

Thank you, brother. Enjoyed it.

[A]

My guy. My guy. Well, there you have it, guys. My boy Trey Tucker broke me down, gave me a counseling session, literally on camera, and I kind of had a feeling that this was gonna happen. And I'm glad it did, because if I can show you guys that we all struggle and we all have our issues, and things that we need to work on, our traumas, our internal injuries as, as Trey likes to say, then we're all in this together and we're all normal. But, you know, it's our job to really find out better ways where we can cope and, and counsel ourselves and, and be better for our children and better for all the people around us. So I just want to remind you guys again, go to the determined society.com Sign up for the newsletter, please and share this show with someone you know. Love and trust. Go follow my boy Trey Rugged Counseling on Instagram. Go buy his [e-mail] and really consume what he's saying because he's helped me out tremendously, as you can see. And I just think he's a great dude. And, and in my humble opinion, there's not enough good people right now being highlighted on social media. So let's start that wave of highlighting good people and giving love to where it matters the most. And until next time, stay determined.