What Real Fatherhood Looks Like

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Real Fatherhood Looks Like"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Determined Society with Shawn French
• Host: Shawn French
• Episode: What Real Fatherhood Looks Like
• Release Date: June 20, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of The Determined Society, host Shawn French engages in an impactful conversation with Nate Norman, a close personal friend and accomplished author. Nate returns to share insights from his upcoming book, A Bow of Bronze: The Arrows of Masculinity, exploring the true essence of fatherhood and masculinity through personal adversity and growth.

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Nate Norman's Personal Journey

Early Beliefs and Vision of Fatherhood

Nate begins by emphasizing the importance of a father's vision in family life. He criticizes the modern tendency to prioritize distractions—such as excessive phone use—over meaningful interactions with children. Nate asserts, “[...] telling your kids not right now is not the thing. [...] you're sending them a message that you care more about that than them” (00:00).

The Turning Point: Injury and Identity Crisis

Nate shares a pivotal moment in his life when a severe back injury left him bedridden, forcing him to confront his identity, which was heavily tied to physical strength and active engagement. This period of suffering led him to reevaluate his understanding of masculinity and fatherhood.

Notable Quote:

"I knew everything there was to know about parenting and then I had kids. It felt like I knew what there was to know about parenting, that I had kids, and I'm like, I'm just figuring it out." (08:01)

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Development of "A Bow of Bronze"

Inspiration from Biblical Figures

Nate draws inspiration from the biblical story of David, portraying him as a "warrior poet" who embodies both strength and vulnerability. This duality forms the foundation of his book, advocating for a balanced approach to masculinity.

Notable Quote:

"By my God, I can bend a bow of bronze. I'm a bow hunter. So I love the idea... I can bend a bow of bronze if God is with me." (29:20)

The Concept of the Gray Man

Nate introduces the concept of the "Gray Man"—the part of a man that loses focus, becomes purposeless, and drifts through life without engagement. Overcoming the Gray Man requires intentionality and daily disciplines.

Notable Quote:

"The Gray man doesn't give a rip about marriage. He doesn't care about whether his kids are doing well or not. The Gray man only cares for self-preservation, existence." (18:13)

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Key Topics and Discussions

Daily Disciplines and Consistency

A central theme is the significance of small, consistent actions—referred to as "a thousand yeses." These daily disciplines, such as waking early, exercising, reading scripture, and fostering meaningful relationships, build the foundation for a purposeful life.

Notable Quote:

"A man ought not to be... Somebody has to be. And here's the reality... if you're not willing to be the first one through the wall, somebody else will." (47:56)

Authentic Relationships Over Social Media Metrics

Nate critiques the modern obsession with social media followings, advocating instead for genuine, face-to-face interactions. He highlights that true value lies in authentic connections, not in the number of online followers.

Notable Quote:

“Everybody was nobody until they were somebody. Right? And you build your brand over time through connections, through doing good work, through helping people out.” (05:02)

Fatherhood: Being Present and Building from Day One

The conversation underscores the necessity for fathers to invest time and presence from the earliest stages of their children's lives. Nate warns against the long-term repercussions of neglecting this foundation, emphasizing that being a friend to one’s children starts with being actively involved from infancy.

Notable Quote:

“If you want to be friends with them when they're teenagers, you got to be friends with them when they're in diapers.” (00:10)

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Insights and Conclusions

Overcoming Inertia Through Purpose-Driven Actions

Nate advises that when facing life's obstacles, breaking down challenges into manageable, daily tasks can prevent feelings of being overwhelmed. Whether through physical activity or expressive outlets like writing, taking actionable steps fosters resilience and progress.

Notable Quote:

“Do what you know and you'll know what to do.” (53:16)

Empathy Through Personal Struggles

Having navigated his own hardships, Nate emphasizes the importance of empathy towards others facing similar battles. His journey illustrates how personal adversity can transform into a mission to support and uplift others, reinforcing the role of men as pillars of strength and guidance in their communities and families.

Notable Quote:

“I'm willing to be the tip of the spear, as a man ought to be, to walk through the darkness, to deal with my bag of shadows so you don't have to walk into that darkness.” (46:43)

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Final Takeaways

Nate Norman's discussion on fatherhood and masculinity offers a profound exploration of identity, purpose, and the daily commitments that shape who we are. By embracing consistent disciplines, fostering authentic relationships, and confronting personal challenges head-on, men can cultivate a fulfilling and impactful life both for themselves and their families.

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Additional Resources:

• Nate Norman's Website: natenorman.com
• Book Release: A Bow of Bronze: The Arrows of Masculinity available for pre-sale until February 9th.
• Follow Nate Norman on Instagram: @natenorman

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This summary provides an in-depth overview of the episode, capturing the essence of Nate Norman's insights on fatherhood and masculinity. For a more comprehensive understanding, listening to the full episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Shawn French]

I want the audience to understand, like, telling your kids not right now is not the thing. Like, you can tell them not right now. But when you're consistently telling them not right now while you're scrolling on your phone, you're sending them a message that you care more about that than them.

[Nate Norman]

A father ought to have a vision for the way that he conducts his family, for the way that he interacts with his family. And if you come home and you get on the couch and you crack open the beer and you doom scroll for the rest of the night and you give your kids a tablet and you send them off, they're going to come home from school one day and you say, hey, how was school? And they're going to say, fine. If you want to be friends with them when they're teenagers, you got to be friends with them when they're in diapers.

[Shawn French]

Come on.

[Nate Norman]

Right? Not handing her a tablet and saying, you just go over here so I can go over here.

[Unknown Artist]

This one Luck. I let the pain inspire me. I put my all in. Everything I'm doing up until it's done, I'm me for the entirety. I put it in nova time. I'll be working. Just know I'm a go for mine.

[Nate Norman]

Cause I earned it.

[Unknown Artist]

They watch and I know it's time I confirmed it. The whole society. Determined.

[Nate Norman]

Determined. What's up, everybody?

[Shawn French]

Welcome back to another episode of the Determined Society. I am your host, Shawn French. Before I introduce today's guest. Yes. You understand what I'm about to do because you watch show all the time. Hit subscribe on YouTube, Spotify and Apple and share this show with somebody you know love and trust that needs to hear this message because I have a feeling lives are going to change today. The second. The other thing I want you to do is I want you to go follow at the Sean French on Instagram and and at the Determined Society as well. So thank you for that. Today I have a great guest, a good personal friend of mine who I met at the way way start of everything I was doing. He's written two books at this time and just an amazing human being. And he's been on my show before. He's back. He's a repeat offender, guys. So that says a lot. He flew in this morning from South Carolina just to be here with us to share his mission and to share his book with you. It's brand new. It comes out very, very soon. It's called a bow of bronze, the arrows of masculinity. And I cannot wait for you Hear the backstory of this book. But without further ado, my man, Nate Norman.

[Nate Norman]

Welcome to the show, Sean. Thanks for having me, brother. You know, they didn't have. The Starbucks weren't open this morning, so I had to come to Florida to get some coffee today.

[Shawn French]

You did? You didn't have coffee like before 3am.

[Nate Norman]

Dude, I woke up.

[Shawn French]

Hold on. But so what? Like, when do people drink coffee?

[Nate Norman]

I mean, in my state, everything's early morning, but 3:00am Nothing's rolling, dude, unless you want to hit that QT, right?

[Shawn French]

Yeah. Is that like a gas station? Yeah, and it's like gas.

[Nate Norman]

I pay the light bills for qts.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, Come on.

[Nate Norman]

I'm in business, bro.

[Shawn French]

I just don't understand these coffee shops. If you guys are listening, get your shit together as simple. Like, be open at 4, why not, right? I mean, like, look, that's when the.

[Nate Norman]

Rollers are moving, right?

[Shawn French]

That's when the moving stakers, they. They need their coffee, right? You go to the airport and you get a really beat up cup of coffee and it just never sits right. You know, you got that, that, that bubble in your stomach for the rest of the day and you get that heartburn. But, dude, I'm glad we're able to get you coffee in Florida.

[Nate Norman]

I'm. I'm here. I'm ready to roll, dude. I've got coffee in my system. I'm excited.

[Shawn French]

I know, dude, I can never have enough coffee. Super happy to have you back on. Super happy to see you in person. You know, I feel like we've built this friendship, you know, from afar for so many years. And just to have you here means a lot to me. For you to take time out of your day to fly here and invest in me in order to talk about your story. Like, dude, I just. I don't take it lightly, man. It means a lot.

[Nate Norman]

I mean, dude, kind of like what we were saying earlier, you know, you never know who these people are in your life, why they're in your life, what are they doing here. And these key connections that just pop up. Dude, it's all. It's all orchestrated, man. It's all. All part of the plan, right? It's all part of the picture.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, man.

[Nate Norman]

You know, and these people that you don't think are anything at the time or random happenstance meetings end up being something, right? And dude, meeting the people on the street in a way that you're going to impact their life on a normal basis.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

That's how we're about to live, right? You never Know what they need. You never know what someone needs you to be for them.

[Shawn French]

How did we meet? Was it Gia? Was it G. McCool?

[Nate Norman]

We were. We were talking about that. Who. Who actually introduced us. Dude, I think I might have had 230 followers. And I link up with Tyler Todd.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And. And then through him, Gia McCool. And then through her, you.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And, dude, I was a nobody. These people don't have a reason to mess with a small account like me, but they all did. And they exemplify what it means to interact with a nobody.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And I'm so grateful. And I want to remember that. Right? I want to remember that. Dude, I was just so eager to get to know the people that were doing it. Get to know the people that were rolling.

[Shawn French]

It's funny. Like, we'll start with this because I want the audience really clue it. Just. Just key in on this main point, like, the word nobody. Right? We're all somebody.

[Nate Norman]

And.

[Shawn French]

But.

[Nate Norman]

But.

[Shawn French]

But here's the thing. Like, the true. The truth is, everybody was nobody until they were somebody. Right? And you build your brand over time through connections, through doing good work, through helping people out. And the one thing that I've always pride myself on is if you approach me the right way, I'm gonna do some stuff with you.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

But if you. If you jump into my DMs and talk about how great you are and how you can increase my listenership with not even understanding what the show is actually doing, that's an insult. I don't really work with those people. But. But, like, dude, like, we all had to start somewhere. And. And for me, Gia was also that person. So if I remember it correctly, I watched one of her videos. It was called the Dark side of Modeling. I saw that, and I really loved it because it showed a side of her that I thought was really, really cool. And speaking out about the bad things that go on. People using your. Your name, image, and likeness without the, you know, permission to do so. You know, artificially generating certain things. And, dude, I really want to interview this woman because I feel like this is a great topic. And most people come at her because of the way she looks. And I didn't do that. I was like, I. I was like, I want to have a conversation with your mind. Like, this. This right here is. Is great. And her team at the time actually advised her against it, but because I wasn't big enough, and now we have this great friendship. Like, we don't talk all the time anymore, but, like, she needs me. I'M there.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

You know, if. If. If I need her, she's there. And she was that person for me, too, man.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah, well, you know, there's a. A downside to the social media, where there's now a value attached to the numbers on your account. And, you know, we don't mean to do it, but we attach a value. Oh, you've got X amount of followers. You are somebody. So naturally, what we do is we feel like a nobody if our follower count is low. And I've said this before, man, I've met some of the realest, most authentic people who have no following. Yeah, they're actually living a decent life. They just don't brag about it. They don't flex on it. And they're stallions, dude. They're studs. These are men among men who. I'm like, dude, I need to be around you. You just got 140 followers, and the world thinks you're nobody. Then you meet somebody who has several hundred thousand followers, and you're like, dude, you're kind of a slump dumpkin.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

You're kind of a trash can.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

I don't think I can learn from you. And there's no disrespect to you. I just.

[Shawn French]

You're not my vibe swamp donkey, man.

[Nate Norman]

That's it, dude. Dude. And I. Who cares if you got 140 followers, right? You're actually living a life worth following.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Without the following. Yeah, exactly.

[Shawn French]

And that's the thing, like, you will find more people doing real life. Like, my. Like my buddy Brad Miller comes to mind. That was just, you know, we just dropped his show on Monday. He doesn't have a massive social media following, but he's more successful than anybody I've ever spoken to.

[Nate Norman]

Live in life, dude.

[Shawn French]

Come on, man.

[Nate Norman]

Live in life.

[Shawn French]

Come on. It's just. It's wild to me. But. But, dude, let's give the audience a peek behind this book. Right? Comes out soon. We're gonna have show link. We're gonna have links for it. Don't worry. You guys can go check it out. Because I think you're especially men and women, too, that want to take a peek behind the curtain of a man's, you know, thought process, but walk everybody through the creation, the bow of bronze.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. John, you ever heard it where you say, I knew everything there was to know about parenting and then I had kids?

[Shawn French]

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

It felt like I knew what there was to know about parenting, that I had kids, and I'm like, I'm just figuring it out. Kind of like my dad was, and my parents were just figuring it out. And with this book, I felt like going into the onset of this book, the eight eras of masculinity, I knew, or thought I knew what I needed to know about this book. And through life and happenstance and chance and things that took place in my life, all of that knowledge that I felt like I had for this book was kind of just pulled away, and I was left with this raw presentation of. Of what I thought or believed a man should be at the end. And so it just changed. The dichotomy of this book just morphed over time. So. I'm running a race, man. It's called Dam to Damn Relay. It's one of my favorite races in South Carolina, and it's from Lake Murray to Lake Greenwood, and it's a relay race. And I'm out there, dude. And my. My. My. My entire structure of my body changes while I'm running. I'm running head up, and I'm. I'm affected in my legs, but I don't know what's going on, right? So I go out and I try to run again the next weekend, and I'm in absolute pain in my legs. I start stretching. Dude, I'm getting on YouTube. Figuring out how to fix, you know, athletes is what we do. We get on YouTube, we figure out how to fix the injury, right? Do I roll it? Do I ice it? Do I. Do I, you know, get one of those bands and. And roll my shoulder?

[Shawn French]

Dump, right?

[Nate Norman]

We've fixed all our injuries our entire life. We don't go to the doctor. That's what we do, right? Same thing. Couple weeks, man. I'm still in pain. I start calling out of work, and now I'm like, dude, something's going on, right? I'm. I'm. I'm in pain. I'm missing work. Something's happening. Well, ends up being my back at a herniated disc affecting my sciatic nerve. I go from epidurals into surgery within a matter of weeks, and, dude, I'm laid on the couch. My. I'm out of work. I'm not doing anything physical. I'm not. I'm not running.

[Shawn French]

I'm not big for you, dude.

[Nate Norman]

And, dude, it was. It was everything, right? And here I am. I'm writing this book about what it means to be a man, right?

[Shawn French]

Okay, Physical's gone, right?

[Nate Norman]

Friendships I felt like were gone. Not because they. They weren't around. It's just A guy. I couldn't go meet him. You could.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, you could.

[Nate Norman]

You.

[Shawn French]

You want to show your face.

[Nate Norman]

I felt so hollow that I wasn't going out. Right. I'm in pain. I'm at the baseball game with my kids. I'm trying to be a coach, and I'm sitting in a chair. Hunker down because I can't move, dude.

[Shawn French]

Damn it.

[Nate Norman]

Right? And it just broke me, right?

[Shawn French]

This was like Aprilish, right?

[Nate Norman]

April of 2024.

[Shawn French]

Okay.

[Nate Norman]

And I'm in the process of writing this book, been working on it, and I start going through some of these pages talking about a man ought to be physically strong. Well, now I can't be, right?

[Shawn French]

Can't be. Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And I felt like part of my identity was getting snatched out of me. And the truth of it is, Sean, that our identity is not wrapped up in what we do. Right. Our identity is who we are.

[Shawn French]

Yeah. Right.

[Nate Norman]

I can still be a good husband. I can still be a good father. I can still be a good friend. I can text people. I don't have to wait for my friend to come over and, and say, hey, Nate, how you doing? Why don't I pick up the phone?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Text them and say, bro, how you doing? Yeah, man, and, and, and I'll tell it to you like this, man. We should do. This is what I had to learn. I need to do for others what I want them to do for me. If I want. Text, ought to text.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Nate Norman]

If I want somebody to invite me over for dinner, man, I should invite them.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, right.

[Nate Norman]

If I want greeting cards or gifts or text messages, phone calls, emails, supporting books, buying their shirts, if I want that for me should do that.

[Shawn French]

You got to do it for other people, man.

[Nate Norman]

You got to pay it forward.

[Shawn French]

But it's hard, man, especially when you get into where you were at, because we had the off air conversation where in the audience is probably tired of hearing me talk about it, you know, but for those that are listening to the show or watching for the first time, like, I got into a deeper, you know, depression because of, you know, I got really overweight and I didn't like the way anything looked on camera. I didn't like, you know, I shouldn't like anything about it. And I struggled and I hid, you know, it was like, you know the deal, man, if you've ever been fat for people, like watching, like, you know, one pair of jeans fit, you know, one shirt fits, and you're constantly washing that one shirt or buying multiple of those shirts, right? And so that Was like, kind of the prison I was in, and. But through that, like, I feel like I came out the other side and, you know, I'm building now and to a point where, you know, I look at things a lot differently, you know, but. But for you, like, that's the same thing. So you have. Your identity is completely ripped apart because you had your identity wrapped up and going to the gym, taking the selfies and the jorts. I was really hoping, you're gonna wear those jorts today, bro. I told my buddy Pat that's coming out my presence, partner. I said, hey, I bet you he's in jorts. And you show up and you're not in jorts. It's disappointing.

[Nate Norman]

Jordan, jorts are the most versatile p. Equipment you could ever own. Let's just put that in writing. Put that down. They're the most versatile piece of. Of clothing you can own. You can hunt in them. You could go to church in them, you can work out in them. You could make babies in them. Whatever. Whatever.

[Shawn French]

Just. Just out the zipper. Just out the jorts.

[Nate Norman]

They do something.

[Shawn French]

They do something.

[Nate Norman]

They do something to your swagger.

[Shawn French]

That's a clip. Jesus, that's. That's nice. I don't want the B roll on that one, but no, dude. So, like, that. That moment, though, when you had to realize, like, to your point where I cut you off was you. You are talking about a man must be physically strong, but at that point, you could not be physically strong. And we had this conversation of, like, God has a funny way of putting you in situations for you to grow. And so to me, and I've mentioned this off air before, I'm going to mention it now, I've always believed in identity crisis. I don't believe in it anymore. It's an identity shift.

[Nate Norman]

There you go.

[Shawn French]

Okay, so you were forced to go through identity shift, walk the audience through that shift, and how you allowed it and used it to maybe tap into a different empathetic part of your being to help people through things that you thought were easy before.

[Nate Norman]

That's good. That's good. I think when I went back and started reading this stuff as an injured man, as a man who could not be physically strong and could not do what I'm actually writing about, I started seeing that I was pointing. You know, pointing a guilt arrow and saying, if you don't do this, you're not a man.

[Shawn French]

Just shooting people right in the heart.

[Nate Norman]

Right?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And I was coming from this. This haughty state of. Of arrogance where I'm Saying a real man ought to be able to fill in the blank, change a tire, change his oil workout, run a 5k, lift his own body weight, push, pull, whatever the case may be, all of these stereotypes that we see from social media, I, I was writing about in a forceful way, and now I'm in this condition where I'm like, man, I'm hearing my own words and I'm feeling so condemned because I can't do them. I can't do it. And so I think it was an Easter service, dude. My kids are at church, my wife's at church, and I'm watching the Easter service and I'm like, dude, I just want to just get up and go. I just want to be with my family. I want to get up and do what I'm writing about. I can't write anymore. I cannot continue this same thread of thought. I've got to change, right? And so I begin to write from my point of view. And it was just like, what can you do right now to be the man you're called to be? Okay, okay, so I can't move this big stone, but I can move this little stone. I can love my wife, I can engage with my children. I could put the phone down and stop doom scrolling and I can engage with my family. What can I can control? And this sentence began to form a thousand yeses in the same direction.

[Shawn French]

Wow.

[Nate Norman]

Right? Moves them out. A thousand yeses, A thousand small stones. Yes, I can do that today. Yes, I can do that today. And I begin to work towards moving these little stones, forming these disciplines, forming these habits that will eventually lead me to move this big mountain in my life. And, man, the empathy that flowed for injured guys, the guys that have been hampered by life's situations, man, they're. They lost a job, they lost their wife, or they lost their income, or they lost their health or they lost their fitness. And now they're in the spot that I'm in. My message to them was, what can you do today? What can you do right now that's going to make your life a little bit better? Can you read the Bible? Can you say a prayer? Can you text a friend? Can you turn on the TV and encourage yourself through the myriad of motivational videos out there? What can you do today?

[Shawn French]

I love it.

[Nate Norman]

To not feel bad about yourself.

[Shawn French]

See, that's what I want people to listen to, right? Is, is that message. A lot of times where we hear people and like, you know, people that have big platforms, it's always a pointed message, you know, and especially the fitness people in the industry, man, I don't want to say all of them, but a lot of them are like, you know, if you're not shredded, you have zero value, and no one should listen to you because you don't know. John Maxwell is not shredded. Les Brown's not shredded. Those are goats.

[Nate Norman]

Good point.

[Shawn French]

Right? So, like, just because they're not disciplined in that part of their life, you know, or they're not displaying the level of discipline that you think they should have, does it make them unsuccessful? Does it make them less valuable? Does it make. Does it make anything less than? No, it doesn't. Right? But I think the interesting thing that you went through is seeing that from the other side now, right? Because, you know, you might have been able to come up to me at that point like, hey, bro, you look like shit. And I've been like, okay, but somebody else might not have been able to do that, right? Like, it would have. It would have caused some issues. Like, I would have been like, yeah, you know, because I. Because I just can't control it right now. Literally can't. And they look me in the eye and say, you can control it. You just don't want to. I was like, no, that's not true. There's a bigger thing at play, right? Some people cannot control it.

[Nate Norman]

It's true.

[Shawn French]

I could not control it. I could not until I could. Until I finally flipped the switch, until I finally opened up to my friend Jeff Delaney. I said, I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. Help me. I can't do this anymore. Right? And so. But. But. And then. And then, you know what he did? He hugged me. He's like, I got you. See you after Thanksgiving. Have fun until then. Right? But to your point, when you're writing this book, like, you have the opportunity to. To, like, literally separate from that arrow in the heart, right? Like that. That hook that influencers use. Like, if you don't do this, you don't give a. You're able to peel back the onion and say, hey, this is where I'm at now. And now I could help you. How did that change you as a person? And then. Follow up question, how did it change you as a father and a husband?

[Nate Norman]

Oh, man. You know, the ever evolving process of fatherhood and. And husbandry, and we're not the same people, right? When. As when we got married, as we are right now. And it's been an evolving road, and throughout my life, there's been this man that I call the gray man, who has Alert.

[Shawn French]

Go. Because I love when you talk about this. We talk this about this a little bit on the other show, but you know, like, recap, please.

[Nate Norman]

So the Gray man is the part of me that has lost its focus. His color, his passion. He's adrift, he's purposeless, he's missionless. He's into the void. He's clicking through life, right? He's waiting for something good to happen, which rarely ever does because other people are responsible and he's not taking action. And he's just in life but not engaged in it. He's alive but not doing anything.

[Shawn French]

Come on.

[Nate Norman]

And I've heard it said too. It's basically a rut with, you're in the grave. The ends are kicked out though, and you're almost there. All we need is the ends that we put on. You're alive, dude. You're breathing, but you're not doing anything. And as. And through the back injury, I could feel the Gray man lurking. I can feel him. It's almost like, you know, he's dead. You killed him. You started working this angle in your life and becoming a better man. But the Gray man lurks right at the edge of our surface. It's almost like one bad week away from jumping back into your life. And the Gray man doesn't give a rip about marriage. He doesn't care about whether his kids are doing well or not. The Gray man only cares for self preservation, existence, right? And coddling himself through comfort, avoiding any form of confrontation and bringing comfort into to get the pain out. So throughout that process, I had to fight to keep the Gray man at bay, right? And when he comes, it's just a slow fade too, right?

[Shawn French]

Oh, dude.

[Nate Norman]

It's that lurking element of comfort that eases its way back into our life. And next thing you know, we're fighting in our marriage. Next, you know, I'm telling the kids, not right now, or maybe later. And I, dude, I, I said this to myself recently, is there will only be a certain amount of maybe laters they'll take before they get the message, right? When they come up to us, we're on our phone, we're working, right? I'm doing something important.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And they're like, hey, dad, can you throw the football? Hey dad, can you jump on the trampoline? Hey dad, can we go for a bike ride? Hey, can we do this right now? And I say maybe later. They're only going to take so many maybe laters until they're like, I get the message.

[Shawn French]

This. Hold on.

[Nate Norman]

This One's hard, especially for us.

[Shawn French]

Because I don't mean to cut you off because, like, I, I, I can tie this to last night. My youngest was saying, daddy, can we play? I go, not right now. We're about to go to dinner not right now. And you're like, I don't want to be emotional. Like, don't make me cry. Because like, the, the worst thing is, like, I never want my children to feel like they're not worthy of my time. But how many times in building things do, do we let that take precedence over the children? Right then? Because we're trying to build something for them, but, like, by the time it's built, they might not give a that. Thank you for that, dude. Because it just, we always need certain checkpoints. Right?

[Nate Norman]

Sure.

[Shawn French]

And like, for me, like, I don't do it a whole lot, man, but when I do, I do, I'm like, dude, not right now. Right. And sometimes, like, saying a, not right now. And I want the audience to understand, like, telling your kids not right now is not the, the, the thing. Like, you can tell them not right now, but when you're consistently telling them not right now, while you're scrolling on your phone, you're sending them a message that you care more about that than them.

[Nate Norman]

That's right. And there, there's obviously times in your life where you've got to just say, hey, now's not a good time.

[Shawn French]

Fifteen minutes, right?

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. And if you have a hundred thousand times in your life to say, not right now. How many have you used and how many do you have left? And how many can you redeem? And that's part of the gray man. That's part of fighting the gray man is intentionality and fatherhood. Right. A father ought to have a vision for the way that he conducts his family, for the way that he interacts with his family. And if you come home and you get on the couch and you crack open the beer and you doom scroll for the rest of the night and you give your kids a tablet and you send them off. And how many of those days do you have left with your kid before you're gonna, they're gonna come home from school one day and you say, hey, how was school? And they're gonna say, fine. And you say, was that all? And they're gonna say, yeah. Anything good happen? No. And the years that you spent handing them a tablet will now come into full focus. And you're not gonna have that time back. If you wanna be friends with them when they're Teenagers, you gotta be friends with them when they're in diapers.

[Shawn French]

Come on.

[Nate Norman]

Right. You've got to invest in that child. That's a vision for your family. Right. I want my daughter to love me when she's 18. When she's 13. Right.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Starts when she's five.

[Shawn French]

Yeah. Come on.

[Nate Norman]

Not handing her a tablet and saying, you just go over here so I can go over here.

[Shawn French]

This is so funny. We, you and I had this conversation in the truck on the way down about how your daughter is going through certain now and not being accepted by her friends. She doesn't fit in. She's homeschooled. Let's be honest. Homeschool kids don't always fit in. But the. The fact of the matter is, she doesn't have a phone and all her friends do. And she may hate you now, but you're creating so much better, something better for her later.

[Nate Norman]

Watching the rejection in lifetime is terrible. Yeah. You're seeing the kids that you don't necessarily want her to be accepted by. Reject her. And it's hard for her. And I'm on the outside looking in saying, I know that you're going to respect this decision in five years.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, man.

[Nate Norman]

Or in 10 years. But right now, I'm watching you not have friends because of this. But I choose to stand on these morals. I choose to raise you in such a way that. That conversation with another adult with eye contact is more important than looking at your eyes. Right. I choose to raise you in such a way that you're going to believe certain things about the world and our construct and human interaction and social media and the Internet that are. That might make you a little bit of an outlier. But everybody that I respect is an outlier. Everybody that I was. No, dude, I don't respect anybody. That is a common. Go with the flow, dude. You've got nothing to offer me.

[Shawn French]

Just. You're just. Dude, you're bubble gum, dude.

[Nate Norman]

You're the same.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, you're.

[Nate Norman]

You're the same as every other person, man. And. And it's those people that think different. It's those people that have held their ground, that have stabbed their flag in the ground and said, dude, I'll die for this. Y. I believe this and I live this. This isn't a social media thing.

[Shawn French]

This is who I am 1000%. I think that's. I think that's apparent. Right? It's obvious to see that. And it's like I told you, my wife and I sand a. We signed a pledge. You Know at the prep school that the kids go to is wait until 8 and even then it's a flip phone.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

I'm not opening up that world for you. Yeah, like, dude, everybody's parents. Like, well, what if you need to go to hold of them? Like, hold on a second. Like, I didn't have a cell phone until I went to Louisiana State university. I was 21 years old before I actually had a cell phone that I could use. And my parents were always able to get a hold of me. You know why? Because they taught me how to be a good kid.

[Nate Norman]

There you go. Dude, is it that our world changed?

[Shawn French]

Isn't it weird? You know, nothing's changed? Nothing's changed, dude. Like, you can't say, like, well, I need my kid to be able to get hold of me. Then make yourself accessible to. When you're. When you're around them, they will always tell you where they're at. Yeah. They will always be there in the world. Yes, the world has changed. I will. Before we get roasted. Like, yes, technology's changed, but also you've given in. You've given in. Like, I'm not giving in one.

[Nate Norman]

Dude, we gotta. We gotta give a Nod here to the 90s kids who rode their bike, bro, seven miles to the local gas station. We were so dope, right? No.

[Shawn French]

Yes.

[Nate Norman]

No phone, no nothing.

[Shawn French]

Nothing.

[Nate Norman]

I didn't even have a way to get in contact with the people if something were to the bad, right? I'm just out there on my Huffy or my BMX with a card in the spoke, right? I'm rolling.

[Shawn French]

Running from gang members.

[Nate Norman]

No.

[Shawn French]

That's what I my like.

[Nate Norman]

And now, you know, would I send my son without a phone seven miles to the gas station?

[Shawn French]

No.

[Nate Norman]

That's the question, right?

[Shawn French]

Would you.

[Nate Norman]

Are we more aware of the danger? Are we more aware of what's in the world through me media and news? Are we just seeing more of the evil? Or is it that, like, the world was always just as evil, we just weren't in tune to it 24 7. Like, I'll watch out. Did you hear about the. Did you hear about the person that got kidnapped in Uganda? And now I have absorbed. I'm like, oh, junk. Maybe I shouldn't. Yeah, I shouldn't let my kid ride the circle Cat.

[Shawn French]

How about I give you a ride, you know?

[Nate Norman]

Yeah, I'll take you. You know, Exactly. And there is evil. I'm not saying be. Be ignorant evil. But dude, what a life, right?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And we learned how to have conversations. We learned how to make force. We learned how to do things with our brains.

[Shawn French]

Yep.

[Nate Norman]

Instead of being raised by a device.

[Shawn French]

Well, that's the thing, dude. Like. And I think that's also back to the what a man needs to be or the. The pillars of masculinity, which I think that, you know, has been. I know that it's been tempered in society, especially the last five years. There's a. There's a major push to gaslight men into thinking that their masculinity is aggression. And it is not. Sure it is not. But let's talk about that. Right? So we've. We've given the audience a background of where the book came from. Start talking about some pillars that are within the book. Don't give them too much, because I want them to buy this data.

[Nate Norman]

Okay, I got you.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

So, Sean, when you meet a man and you say, dude, that. That dude. That dude is killing life, right? That dude is. He's living, right? Whether it be his business or his marriage or his faith, there's something in this man that stands out, Right. He's living a certain way. He's walking through. It's a bearing, right. It's a. It's a confidence. It's an aura that this man possesses.

[Shawn French]

An energy.

[Nate Norman]

An energy. What are the things that that man does that gives him this energy? Is he born with it? Right. Does he get it from other men? Does he glean from the world? Where does this man get these things? And so throughout the process of my life, I would just realize, when I lived good, I felt good, right? When I prayed or read my Bible, I just felt better going into the next thing. When I lifted weights or ran, I felt good going into my workday. And I began to realize that as I begin to make these habits and make these changes, that I was feeling good and I'm walking taller. I'm loving my wife better. I'm ministering to my kids better. I'm hanging out with friends better. I'm not being the slump, dumpkin, or the gray man. I'm living intentionally.

[Shawn French]

I love it.

[Nate Norman]

And so I would just notch these little things down. 8 disciplines or 9 disciplines or 12 disciplines or 12. Things I did today made me feel like a million bucks. Drank a bunch of water, gotten some cold water, worked out, read my Bible, texted a friend, encouraged a friend, laughed. Who knows? Whatever these things are that made me feel great, I wrote them down. And out of this begin to form these intrinsic qualities that a man ought to possess. Number one, I felt like spirituality. Every man that I've ever respected had a bearing somewhere they were going, an inner anchor, something that grounded them. They weren't just out there guessing at what it was to exist, right? They weren't out there just trying to figure out why they were here on the earth. They knew, dog. They knew. And there was a confidence that came with them knowing not only did they know where they were going and have an active faith, but they were encouraging others to do the same. Same.

[Shawn French]

Love it, right?

[Nate Norman]

They weren't just saying, I have an answer to my life and I'm hoarding this and keep it. They're shining a light for others. And I'm like, there's something attractive in a man that makes him a beacon of hope for others, right? A lighthouse shining a lamp from the shore to bring other journeys.

[Shawn French]

Come on, dude.

[Nate Norman]

Right?

[Shawn French]

Come on.

[Nate Norman]

You're not just saying, I figured something out. I'm keeping it.

[Shawn French]

Dude, look at your world, man.

[Nate Norman]

This works, right? Praying works, or reading your Bible works, or loving your wife works or. Or not sleeping around or not getting drunk every week. It works. And you're lassoing the lost.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And I love that element. So a man, for me, ought to be a spiritual person. He ought to have a bearing of faith. That's tenant number one. That's arrow number one. And I'm a bow hunter.

[Shawn French]

Okay?

[Nate Norman]

So I love the idea.

[Shawn French]

No, I know. And I love how you. How you name the book based on that. It's pretty cool.

[Nate Norman]

The arrows, right? And so there's this story in the Bible, and David is this savage, right? You know, I don't. I don't want to get graphic on your show, but come on, you know.

[Shawn French]

King Saul's like, they're used to me.

[Nate Norman]

So you can't have my daughter. I don't know. You go kill a thousand Philistines. Philistines, you can have her. So David's like, all right. Bet.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

David goes out there with a Crown royal bag and fills up the thing with the thousand foreskins of the Philistines and brings it back, throws them at the king's feet, like, give me the girl. Right? Savage, dude, right? There's another time where he's trying to get some food from this shepherd. Shepherd tells him no. He tells all his boys, strap up. We're going in, right? We're going to kill this dude. This is the type of dude.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And ends up becoming this king, writes the book of psalms and has this poet side to him, this. This warrior poet, you know, dichotomy within him. And he says this line, he says, by my God, I can run upon a troop. By my God, I can leap over a wall. By my God, I can bend a bow of bronze. I'm like, there's this concept here where David said, I have all of these qualities, but by my God, I'm able to do this as a man. And it resonated with me, man, wow. I can bend a bow of bronze if God is with me. I can love my wife. I can start this business. I could be that friend. I could be the man I'm called to be. If you lead me.

[Shawn French]

I love it.

[Nate Norman]

And that's where this whole premise of the bow of bronze came from. And these tenets, I feel like lead me to be the type of man that God can use to bend the. The bow of bronze.

[Shawn French]

How has writing this book and those tenets, those principles, changed your life?

[Nate Norman]

Well, you know, if I don't do them now, I feel awful. It's almost created the negative impact. You know, it used to be I could skip the gym and not feel a thing.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Nate Norman]

I could skip a discipline, and I felt fine.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And now I go a few days on vacation. Like, dude, something's off.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, something's not good.

[Nate Norman]

I got to get back to a routine.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

You've created such a necessity in your life for these things that it almost drives you to a state of normalcy with the 12 disciplines. But, dude, what I feel like it's taught me throughout this process is that there are things that a man ought to do every single day. Right. There's something that you need to put your hands on every single day. If you don't live your life on mission, you'll. You'll live adrift. Right. If you wait for something good to happen, you're just going to be waiting a long time. Right. If you wait for the right time to start the business, or if you wait for the right time to have kids, you're just waiting.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Get out there and move a stone.

[Shawn French]

I love it, dude. It's so funny because we're talking about these pillars, these arrows, principles of what a man ought to be. I want everybody to really think of that one thing that they're trying to accomplish in their life, whether you're male or female. And tell me that there aren't pillars that you should be following every day. And if you. If you follow those pillars every single day, what shows up at the end of the week? Maybe nothing. I'm be honest. Nothing. And then two weeks and then three Weeks, you're feeling better, you're happy, you're walking around, you're moving a little different, right? You could be in better shape. And then all of a sudden, maybe work gets a little bit better. Maybe your conversations at home with your kids or your wife or your spouse gets better. Maybe, just maybe, your brand or whatever you're working on starts to blow the F up. And then you look back at it and you're like, what just happened? Well, the reality is you stayed within your process. You created something to stay true to what you believe in. That's going to get you to the next level. And when you don't sacrifice on those disciplines, you walk a little taller every day. It doesn't matter. When you don't skip and you do the next right thing. You can create anything in this world that you want. And people probably listen like, that's bullshit. Well, is it? Because I'm telling you, if you're saying it's bullshit, then you're not looking at everything you said you were going to do and doing it and not just doing it to check it off. Yeah, I know. I, I, I said I would read 10 pages, but I read five. Let me, let me, let me check that off. No, it's a fail. It's a pass or fail business, dude. You're either doing the disciplines or you're not. And when I look at everything, you know, throughout my day now, you know, wake, wake up at 4am is, is, is a discipline. It may not be that forever, but right now that is a, that is a principle. That is what I ought to do in my process to be the best me in the, and build the best show that I can is wake up at 4am, be in the gym by 4:30. So those are two things right there. But in the, in the middle of that, am I hydrating? Am I my protein, protein shake? Did I do all those things, like, even, even down to the thing like am I taking my vitamins? That is a discipline. If you, and if you don't do it one day, you, you are literally telling yourself it's okay to shortcut.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll say something like that on social media. I'll say, a man ought to rise early, right? That's something. I just believe a man ought to be up before his family, sharpening his body, mind and spirit.

[Shawn French]

Dude, if I'm asleep, if I'm, if my kids beat me awake, I'm pissed.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. And dude, I never saw my dad in bed unless he was sick. And even then it was for a short amount of time, but I'll say something like that on social media, a man ought to rise early, sharpen his body, mind and spirit, and here come the people right here. Oh, dude. Well, I work the third shift and I do this at night time. Fantastic. You still ought to be doing something prior to your family waking up or your family being away that you're sharpening your body, mind and spirit. So you're the best version of yourself 1000%. Right? And dude, it's never the people that are driven that come at me for this stuff. Like, it's not the people that are waking up early and know the benefit of the 4am Club or know the benefit of rising early that come at me. It's the people that aren't doing right. Like, everybody's different. Absolutely. Everybody's different. But even you, as a different man ought to do something daily that makes you a better man.

[Shawn French]

Don't even have to get up and work out.

[Nate Norman]

Get up and read, do anything.

[Shawn French]

Make your kids lunches.

[Nate Norman]

Do something right.

[Shawn French]

Make their breakfast.

[Nate Norman]

There it is. That's it, man.

[Shawn French]

Read the. Read the book with your kindergartner. I don't know. But hey, good morning.

[Nate Norman]

Anything is better than nothing.

[Shawn French]

Anything.

[Nate Norman]

Don't just do something, stand there.

[Shawn French]

Just don't. Don't just wake up at 6 because you know you got to be somewhere at 7 like that. You're still in a Beta. Like from the time I wake up at 4am I get in the truck probably around 4:18. I'm not even awake, dude. I'm autopilot right now. Like, I'm not like, dude, like that. That's. That's the daily discipline. That's the habit. And I know, like, okay, I don't like how I feel right now, but as soon as I get to the, the gym parking lot, I'm gonna do my normal daily blood type determined thing. And then that's my, that's my. That's my trigger. That's my switch. Okay, I got these feelings out. And now I'm gonna go in and I'm just gonna walk to the door. And now I'm gonna buzz myself in. I'm gonna hang my keys up, I'm gonna go upstairs, I'm gonna hop on the treadmill. I take it one second, one move at a time, and before you know it, I'm locked in.

[Nate Norman]

Isn't it funny how the idea of doing those things becomes daunting? Not actually the doing of them becomes hard, but, like, the idea of waking up Early. The idea of going to the gym, the idea is the difficult thing. But when you're actually doing, it's not difficult.

[Shawn French]

It's easy.

[Nate Norman]

Then the endorphins start flowing, the blood starts low, and you're feeling jacked, you're feeling excited. Right. The idea was actually stopping the action.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And so many men are existing there. Women too, right? No, just the idea of launching, the idea of moving forward. It's the magnanimous pile of rocks. Right. How do I move this entire structure in my life? Well, you don't move it all at one time.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, you can't.

[Nate Norman]

Piece by piece by piece again, a thousand yeses in the same direction with consistency, with perseveration. Right. Not looking at it like, you have to move the mountain by tomorrow. When I'm 60, I still want to be doing disciplines because I feel I'm the optimal self when I do so. I feel like I'm the best man that I can be for my wife, for my family, for my children, for. For God, so that I can bend a bronze bow when I'm 60, right?

[Shawn French]

Yeah, dude. Like, there's a certain power in what you said, Right. I want to be in these disciplines until I'm 60. Most people, when they look at something and they look at that mountain, they go, geez, how the hell am I gonna. There's no way. Like, how do I go from here to there? But what they're focused on is the gravity of the shift of, like, what does this look like compared to what does this look like? Where does my business look now compared to what I want it to look like? Okay, we're doing X, but we want to do 100k a month doing this or whatever it is, and they look at that number, they're like, oh, my God. Instead of the small rocks every single day, if you move the small rocks, and I call it moving the proverbial football down the field, just yard by yard, man. It doesn't matter. You don't have to move a mountain every day. You don't even have to be at your optimum self every day. It's good, but can you move forward a little bit?

[Nate Norman]

Do something?

[Shawn French]

Do. Like, to your point, can you do something today? What can you do? So there's days and there's people. Like, really? This is where I think people let off the gas. Like, what was it yesterday? I was extremely underfed. I woke up and went to the gym, and it was a hit day. You know, I was busting my dude. I just don't I'm not feeling good right now. I'm like, what happened? Why is my body so tired? I'm like, oh, you're extremely busy. Your last actual meal was at 1:30pm and your last shake was at 4:30pm and now it's 5am you're underfed. Okay, so. But now I know. Did I walk out? No, I said, okay, my 100% is at a different level right now. My 100% today is probably my normal 70%. But as long as I give 100% of that, then can I be happy about it?

[Nate Norman]

Excuse.

[Shawn French]

Most people aren't. They judge where they're at based on where they were yesterday or what they think they need to be doing. No, no, no, no, no, no. Just give everything you got at that moment.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. Or if you're anything like me, you allow that problem to become so pervasive that it takes up all your peripherals.

[Shawn French]

Come on, man.

[Nate Norman]

Right now, of a sudden, you can't eat, right? You can't sleep, you're frustrated, you're angry, you're pensive, you're aggressive. You're. You're ready to punch through bricks because you can't find the remote control, right? And it's because that problem is. It's. It's right here, dude. It's in my face. It's what I'm thinking about. It's what I'm talking about. It's just right here. And I can't see solutions because it's consumed my vision, dude. That's when that. Zoom out, right? Just backing up and then addressing one small discipline. And, dude, there was times during the back surgery where all I could do was get that phone out and text a brother and say, thinking about you today. I love you. I'm praying for you. Fight the good fight.

[Shawn French]

You know, so crazy, because I'm thinking about your journey now. You know, it's like, April. I'm thinking about what was I doing in April, right? And where was I at? And where was I at the end of the year? And I said. And I. And I. I caught myself when you were telling me all this. I'm like, I didn't know this. Why don't you reach out? I didn't reach out to you and tell you where I was at. So, man, can we do better with this?

[Nate Norman]

It's good.

[Shawn French]

Like. Like, to me, it's like we get wrapped up in our daily lives, and we are in a certain energy, and we expect everybody else to be in the same energy and to operate exactly how we're operating. But how many times have I been at a very high energy, and maybe there's somebody in my life that, you know, is. Is a part of my every day, but they're not at that energy. And I'm operating here, and they're operating there. And I don't say, hey, are you good?

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. Reach out, dude. You know, give text.

[Shawn French]

Yes.

[Nate Norman]

You want it, Give it. I mean, and expect it if you're not offering it yourself.

[Shawn French]

And, dude, I feel like I do a pretty good job. Right. But I'm not perfect.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

I get wrapped up in my own.

[Nate Norman]

Dude.

[Shawn French]

Come on, man.

[Nate Norman]

This applies to marriage though, too, right?

[Shawn French]

Yes.

[Nate Norman]

You want your wife to text you a spicy text. How are you initiating any form of contact?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Right. You want your wife to reciprocate at dinner time or at the house? How are you initiating? Same with your kids. You want your kids to have conversations? How's your conversation with them?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

How are you talking to them? How's your eye contact? Are you saying. Not right now. Same with friendships, man. And one of the disciplines I encourage men to do when we do these 12 disciplines is encourage one person a day.

[Shawn French]

Oh, dude, that's minimum.

[Nate Norman]

One person.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, that's it.

[Nate Norman]

Just shoot a text off first thing in the morning, you wake up fired off. Right. It could be the same person. It could be your mom. I don't care. Right. One person, one time a day. Send the text out.

[Shawn French]

And dude. And it's so funny because it doesn't need to move mountains. No, it could be someone that reaches out to you on social media, just thanking them, like, hey, have a great day, dude. Have a great day. You're awesome. Oh, my God. You take the time to send me a voice note. Makes people's day, man. And people want connection for sure.

[Nate Norman]

And what I know about that is I need it. I need that encouragement text. Right?

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And I was too ashamed to reach out for.

[Shawn French]

But I didn't know that before.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

Now I know.

[Nate Norman]

Felt so, so weak reaching out to a man saying, dude, pray for me. I'm hurting. I'm struggling. Right. Pray for me. I'm going through the depths of despair right now.

[Shawn French]

That's crazy.

[Nate Norman]

Ashamed to do so. And I've got a few friends that I have a close enough relationship. Do that. But the vast majority, I can't do. Do that.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, Right? Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And so at random, that's why I said, I just need to send this. Who knows what people are going through? You know what, Sean? Nine times out of ten, they text back and say, dude, I needed that today. Hey, I lost my job.

[Shawn French]

Hell, yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Hey, I'm going through with my marriage. Hey, this is happening in life. And you're just. You're just being this oracle, this vehicle. You're firing arrows into the world of purpose. A lighthouse shining a lamp from the shore to bring others journey home.

[Shawn French]

There's just lighthouses, aren't there just to go check out? You know, when your family's at the beach, they serve a purpose. I think purpose is the big thing, dude. Like, if a. If a human being is off purpose and just existing, Gray woman, gray man, whatever it is, there's no. They don't have purpose. And I think it's important, and I know it's important to truly dive into your purpose, but also understand why you're doing it.

[Nate Norman]

Right.

[Shawn French]

It's like, for me, say, what's your purpose? Well, to have the show, like, this was my purpose my whole life. I didn't know. I didn't know that. But. But also, what's my purpose doing it? Is it to make impact or is it to make money? It's to impact. Will money come? Yeah, money comes. It has, it will. It'll continue, you know, Will. Will being known come? Yeah, it'll come. It has. It will continue to come. It'll get a larger scale. But for me, what it's about is getting the messages from a friend while I'm sitting at gymnastics. Hey, my book's coming out, beginning of February uni shows. I'm like, yeah, mine can you travel? But you see what I'm saying? Like, that's what I live for. Like, I live for getting the text messages like this. This episode helped me in this way in my life. Thank you so much. Like, dude, that's impact. Yeah, it's purpose. You have to have it.

[Nate Norman]

Is it possible that there's things that you had to go through in your life for those messages to come out?

[Shawn French]

We talked about that.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. You know, like, you had to go through the valley of the shadow of death for you to be able to appreciate the light.

[Shawn French]

Oh, yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And then when you. When you realize one day that you actually went through crap so you can appreciate the good you have, or even further still, that you went through crap so that you could show somebody else how to cut a road through it. Right? Like, you actually had to walk through a mess in order to make a map for someone else. That's crazy, dude.

[Shawn French]

I can sit there and tell you, from 2021 until very, very recently, there's. There's Been a lot of moments when I would sit in the. In the. In the office, in my house and just be in tears. Why. Why am I going through this? Why is this so hard? Why can't I figure this out? Why? Why? Why?

[Nate Norman]

Why?

[Shawn French]

Why? And then I started doing the principles that I knew that would just make me feel better. And then all of a sudden, holy. It opens up, right? And now I'm. I'm like, turn the faucet off. Not really. Please, God, don't turn the faucet off. But it's just like, okay, now I need, like, three more people to field all this stuff because, like, I can't do it. All right? And. And it comes when you become in true alignment with who that. That. That real dude is at the deep core. It opens up. And then you start to realize, oh, because now people are calling, hey, I'm thinking about doing. And I'm talking about close friends, dude. I had my. My. One of my closest friends my whole life. I've known since I was 11 years old. We met on a baseball field. He's a left hand. His name is Justin Higgins. Is playing second base as a left hander, which was because you don't do that. He threw a baseball and hit me in the neck when I was running down the line. We've been best friends ever since. But, like, I've gone through the mess. And he calls me yesterday. He's like, hey, I really want to start a podcast, but I want it to be in, like, the. The wellness. You know, I want wellness stocks to come on. I want to do xyz. Can you lend me some advice? I'm like a ton. And I'm gl. I'm glad to do it, but I. But I told him all the roadblocks, don't go there, go here. We'll hop on a zoom call. I'll come up to Orlando. I'll help you do this. You can be. You can come on my network. Let's do this thing the right way. Because I've been through this.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah.

[Shawn French]

And I don't want any of my people to go through it.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. You have to walk down some of the roads to know there's dead ends.

[Shawn French]

Dude.

[Nate Norman]

You got to walk down some of those. I hit a few in order to. To. To mark a dead end on a map.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

You got to walk down that road. You can reach back behind you, say, dude, I can tell you there's. There. It's bottomless pit.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Drunkenness. Right. It's an empty road in Pornography.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

Empty pit in adultery or whatever the case may be. Right. And you find out that the. That there's. There's emptiness there. And you. You reach back behind you, right? And you say, I've walked through this wood. I've cleared a path for you so that my son can walk unencumbered. Right. I took the scrapes on my arm swinging a machete through the woods and cleared that path so that you can walk on a clear path. Illuminated, clear, unencumbered path. I'm willing to be the tip of the spear, as a man ought to be, to walk through the darkness, to deal with my bag of shadows so you don't have to walk into that darkness.

[Shawn French]

I love it.

[Nate Norman]

Right. I don't. I want to. I want to walk through that crap. I want to go through my junk. I want to go through my bag of shadows. I want to clear that path so that when you are come of age, you're not dealing with a dad who's depressed or anxious or frustrated. Right. I'm diving in my junk so you don't have to.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, man.

[Nate Norman]

Right. I'm clearing that path.

[Shawn French]

I think it's important, man. It's so funny. You said you want to be that spear that goes through first. You want to cut the path. This is. This is. There's a line from a movie called Moneyball. You ever watch Moneyball?

[Nate Norman]

No, sir.

[Shawn French]

Okay. It's about Billy Bean. When, you know, like the whole analytics and the statistical thing of. Is called. It's called. Yeah. You called it Moneyball.

[Unknown Artist]

Right.

[Nate Norman]

Okay.

[Shawn French]

And he did things every. Like so contrarian to what everybody thought. Everybody thought you had to have the big names in the lineup, right? No, you get rid of that big name and then you bring in a bunch of other people that can make up for the statistical value and then some. So you can win baseball games based on percentages. And everybody thought he was crazy. And no, he didn't win a World Series, which I'm pissed about because I'm an Ace fan. That don't even get me started. Like, I should not have brought that up because A's have just destroyed that organization. But there was a line in the movie says, the first one through the wall always gets bloody. Let me be that guy.

[Nate Norman]

That's what it comes down to. And so when I say a man ought to be the first one, and here comes the inner saying, a man ought not to be. You ought to be.

[Shawn French]

You ought to be.

[Nate Norman]

Somebody has to be. And here's the reality of adults and fathers and parents and men alike. Right. If you're not willing to be the first one through the wall, somebody else will. And if you're not willing to do what must be done for the sake of your family, your progeny, your future, your career, your ministry, your faith, whatever the case may be, if you're not willing to, somebody else will.

[Shawn French]

Yeah. Are you willing to put your hands. Put your kids in somebody else's hands?

[Nate Norman]

Send me.

[Shawn French]

Come on, man. Right.

[Nate Norman]

I don't want. I don't want somebody else raising my kids.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

I don't want them learning how to change their gender. Recess. Right. I want to be in control of what my kids are seeing. Right.

[Shawn French]

I love you for that. That's a whole other topic. But it's true. Like, I want them to learn how to change their dick. Yes. Thank you. Thank dude. That we can go a thousand different ways from here.

[Nate Norman]

Dude. I just want to have a hand how they're raised.

[Shawn French]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

I don't want to indoctrinate my kids and say, you're going to be force fed to believe the way I believe. But I want to present the facts in such a way that they have a cognitive way to rationalize what they're going to see in this world and how they're going to process the information from a worldview. That is what I believe to be true.

[Shawn French]

Right.

[Nate Norman]

Biblically based.

[Shawn French]

And I love it, dude. I love it. And I cannot wait for everybody to read your damn book. I can't wait to finish it. You brought me a copy today. Thank you. I'm honored. Let everybody know as we land the plane here where they can find you, how they could potentially buy the book when it comes out. Because, guys, I. Look, I only have real people on the show. Right. This guy's not pushing anything. He's. He's clearly an intellectual and he's got a lot of value to give men and how they ought to be and, you know, serving through his own failures and his own obstacles, but giving back to men so they can be there for their wife and their. And their children.

[Nate Norman]

Yeah. So natenorman.com is where you can find it. Comes out February 9th. I'm excited. It's on pre sale right now and so you can get you a copy. And I'm excited about what it'll do to see somebody walk through my journey or allow somebody to walk through my journey. And hopefully what it does is allow them to put their hands on something as well. You could be incapacitated like I was and still put your hands on something, right? You do not have to drift purposelessly through this life. And we know that mediocrity is a siren song that lures us to passivity. And if we as men can combat passivity by avoiding that siren song of comfort and put her hand on one single thing, we'll make the world a better fa. A better place.

[Shawn French]

I love it. There's a man right now listening that wants to move because you've inspired them or just because they know that they need to move, but they're so paralyzed. What is the one piece of advice, tactical advice you could give them right now, to start breaking that inertia.

[Nate Norman]

Motion is always attached to figuring things out for me. You know, throughout my life, I would disappear, right. I'm gonna go to the woods, I'm gonna walk. I'm gonna go on a run. I'm gonna go into the ocean. There was this action attached to my brain clicking in gear, and it's almost like I needed the endorphin and blood flow to get my brain around the idea of what I needed to do or how I needed to move forward. And I know this might be difficult for some, especially if you're injured like I was, because motion was gone. So everything that I had attached to my cognitive function, I could not do. So how did I get the juices flowing, the brain waves moving? And I just began to write. I just began to process. I begin to dump. And for a lot of men, the bag of shadows contains the depths of your being. It contains the junk, the dirt, the grime, the filth, the stuff you never post on social media. That's what's in the bag of shadows. And when you begin to process through your junk and just get it out, this is why therapy works. This is why taking your armor off with another brother works, where you're cracking open your chest and saying, look at my heart.

[Shawn French]

Yeah, that's it.

[Nate Norman]

When you deal with some of this junk, and the way I dealt with it was through writing. So if you can't get active and you can't move your body and walk and get into the woods or get into the water and begin to let the cognitive function flow, then dump it out on paper, and if you don't want anybody to read it, that's fine. Go have a funeral for it later. Take it to a gravestone, burn it up, tie it to a balloon, and send it off into the atmosphere. Who cares?

[Shawn French]

Yeah, get it out. I love it.

[Nate Norman]

Go through the bag, do what you can, and you'll be able to Move forward. And I say it like this, Sean, this is something I live by. Do what you know and you'll know what to do.

[Shawn French]

Oh, I don't know.

[Nate Norman]

I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do.

[Shawn French]

Do what you know.

[Nate Norman]

Do what you know.

[Shawn French]

Yeah.

[Nate Norman]

And you'll know what to do.

[Shawn French]

Come on, guys. Listen, I hope you enjoyed this conversation today. Don't forget natenorman.com go check out his book. It's on pre sale. We'll drop the links everywhere. By the time the show comes out, it'll probably be out anyway. So go get yours now. If you need to reach out to him, he's also on Instagram.

[Nate Norman]

What's your handle at underscore Nate Norman.

[Shawn French]

At underscore Nate Norman. Go check him out, have a relationship with him and learn everything you can from the guy because again, he's amazing. And thank you guys once again for listening. And Nate, thank you. Dude, this has been an amazing treat to have you fly in and have you on the show. I'm proud of you and I'm all for you, man. Like straight up, dude.

[Nate Norman]

Thank you, brother.

[Shawn French]

Freaking Jack to have you sit.

[Nate Norman]

Appreciate you, man.

[Shawn French]

So guys, please once again, share the show with somebody you know, love and trust. Someone who needs to hear this message. Someone male or female that is stuck because they're going through an injury or sickness or depression. Just help them move that one pebble at a time. And until next time, stay determined.

[Unknown Artist]

This one luck. I let the pain inspire me. I put my all in. Everything I'm doing up until it's done, I'm me for the entirety. I'm put it in overtime. I'll be working. Just know I'mma go for mine cause I earned it. They watch and I know it's time. I confirmed it. The whole society determined.