Mark (2:00)

What's up everybody? Got a special one for you today. I'm here on site at White Sands Treatment center in Fort Myers, Florida. They are our powered by sponsor. So I just want to say thank you again White Sands for one heck of a partnership and collaboration. We're out there helping people get better, helping people get healthy and living better lives. So today I have with me someone that I go way back with. Stephen Sundquist, man, so good to see you. Welcome to the show.

Stephen Sundquist (2:25)

Appreciate you having me on, man. We finally did it, dude.

Mark (2:28)

I mean, we talked about it, man. We've talked about it at agnostic nauseam. And finally we found a way. And so for the viewers, man, you want to work with someone, you want to do some cool stuff, wait for the right moment, because if you're paying attention, it'll sneak up and bite you right in the ass. And here we are, man. It's cool, dude.

Stephen Sundquist (2:43)

I love it.

Mark (2:44)

So it's, you know, every now and again I get to, you know, have conversations, you know, with people that I go way back with. And it's always fun, man, because the energy is different, Right? So you know where I was in 2008 or 9, right? I mean, dude, I was living with my mom there. I lost everything prior to the mortgage meltdown. You know, you were dating my sister, and that's how we met. And. And here we are. So, dude, we had an amazing tour of the facility. You know, prior to us sitting down here today and shooting this episode, what I found most amazing, right, you're out, you're driving by on Colonial Road. You see this big building, White Sands Treatment Center. And it's like, you see, you know, this building that we're in, I'm like, oh, okay. Like, that's all it is, huh? But what this place actually is, there's nine model homes back there that you can't even see from the street. It's like these individuals that get to come to this treatment center and recover and heal and get healthy, they're living an actual, you know, life where they can make coffee in their. In their house. They have a bedroom. They could do their laundry in there. There's a full scale cafeteria right over here to my right. You walk through those doors is a badass gy gym that they can go move their body. So they're working on their mental, spiritual, right, and physical health. I mean, this place is amazing, man.

Stephen Sundquist (4:05)

Yeah, it's, you know, it's definitely a top option, I'd say, based on my experience of what I've seen, you know, working in this space after finding myself through recovery, you know, and it's, it's a safe place. Everybody really cares here, and they go the extra mile. The clinical is above average, I'll tell you that, man. You know, there's. There's a lot of great things White Sands has to offer the community, for sure.

Mark (4:25)

You know, I walked in here, man, and you know, a lot of times when you walk in a place and you got cameras showing up, people kind of look at you sideways like, who the hell is this guy? And what are we doing here? Everybody here, I got, I got to tell you, man, from everybody here on site with Mark, you know, you, Mike, and then even, you know, Casey over there on, on, on the other coast, man, I wish she was able to be here today. I was really looking forward to meeting her soon. Girl, you better get your butt over here. But, but everybody's been amazing. Everybody's welcoming and, you know, I wasn't expecting it.

Stephen Sundquist (4:59)

Yeah, and that's, that's pretty much how it's like for the patients to come in, right? They're met with love from the, the embrace at the doors, you know, letting them know, hey, listen, you're not alone. You know, there is help and you know, just kind of grab our hand in a sense. Let us, let us take you through this journey, you know, and just trust one person. If it's one person.

Mark (5:15)

What do you like most about working with White Sands, man?

Stephen Sundquist (5:18)

I think the company culture, I think they empower their employees, okay. And that's really important to someone like me. But I, I just think it's, it's a well oiled machine. You know, they have systems in place for, you know, certain things that other places don't have. And it's just a great setup and there's great structure and, you know, there's activities for people to do. You know, they have choices, right. It's not like you have to go here. You know, there are certain groups where they have the ability to pick which ones they want to do based on what they're going through.

Mark (5:51)

I think it's really cool. And you know, I'm going to come back to another point in that that I want to make. But what I, what I'm digging about this place is that, you know, you talk about structure, but we're also talking about an actual lifestyle because I, and you know, I've never been in recovery and I'm grateful for that. Right. I've, I've done some messing up in my life, right. But it never turned into, you know, an addiction or, you know, a long extended lifestyle type situation. But when people think of, in treatment centers, they think of hospitally environments, sterile environment, you know, someone shoving pills down your throat, being mean to you. But what I've seen here Is. And I alluded to it at the beginning of the episode, man, they have community time where they can get out there in a, you know, like a gazebo and sit around in a circle and have some conversation. They can. They all eat in the cafeteria at the same time and then go out and play cornhole and some Connect four, get a lift in, but also not disconnect from their families and have their device time when it's. When it's Approved.

Stephen Sundquist (6:54)

Right.

Mark (6:55)

To FaceTime their family and stay connected with the outside as much as possible. I think it's important for people to know that about this place.

Stephen Sundquist (7:04)

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's. It's kind of like a thing. Right. You know, we don't. We don't want to completely disconnect you from your. Your lifestyle and your family and friends, but, you know, also having just that fine line with a boundary of, you know, are you applying yourself here for the day? If you did great, you know, here's your reward, in a sense, I think it's great. You know, I didn't have that when I was in treatment, and I definitely could have benefited from it, I think.

Mark (7:26)

Yeah. So let's talk about that, if you don't mind. Like. Okay, so I don't remember what year was. I remember you opening up to me about it. I mean, I think it was several years ago. Years run together for me now. Dude, I don't even. Sometimes I don't even know what Freaking Month is.

Stephen Sundquist (7:37)

2017.

Mark (7:38)

2017. Okay, so not. Not too long ago, right? What was the deal, man?

Stephen Sundquist (7:43)

Oh, man, it stems back to high school for me. You know, I was a great baseball player like yourself and had a lot of potential to play at the next level and had a freak accident happen on the mound. And that was my introduction to pain pills. Took him as prescribed. And essentially, when I healed from my surgery, my arm wasn't nearly as strong, so I only knew myself as Steven the baseball player. I didn't know who I was without sports, you know, so it was kind of like an identity crisis thing. And I spent the next seven, eight years, you know, searching for that high that I never found, you know, and obviously, a lot of hurt, a lot of consequences along the way. And it's just, you know, a lot of. A lot of athletes go through a similar process I've experienced, you know, with working with others today. You know, it's just, you know, some people. Some people, you know, find their calling in a sense in life. And, you know, I feel like, you know, anybody that goes through this process will have the same calling in a sense, and that's just to, you know, pay it forward, you know, help the next person in line. That's just what I've done. I've found a great career and, you know, helping people now and it's just, it's something that found me, you know, based on my experience. You don't find that that often.

Mark (8:51)

Hey, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our Powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands Treatment Centers and the Determined Society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury top rated addiction treatment. From medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long term aftercare. Their resort style campuses, expert clinicians and holistic programs create real, lasting recovery. Together, we're committed to bringing hope, resources and healing to those who need it most. White Sands Treatment Centers. I think that when you are put in the path where you finally listen to the higher power of going in your path of where you're supposed to be, you fall into it, right? Like I fell into this. It was an accident. Now it's on purpose, right? But you know, I, I was really bad at it for a very long time. And you know, with you, you know, getting the healing and the treatment that you needed put you on this path to be involved in this amazing treatment center here at White Sands. You know, I, I, I, I want to go back to your experience and treatment and here's why. Because I want the listeners and the viewers to understand the difference. Because you alluded to it, right? I wish I would have had something like this in my recovery. So what does that look like on the other side of it?

Stephen Sundquist (10:15)

Yeah, sure. So, you know, for me, Baton Rouge, Louisiana is where I got sober. Do you know that?

Mark (10:20)

I didn't know that.

Stephen Sundquist (10:20)

St. Christopher's Addiction Wellness.

Mark (10:22)

How do you get sober in Baton Rouge, bro?

Stephen Sundquist (10:24)

Our connection.

Mark (10:25)

Come on, man.

Stephen Sundquist (10:26)

But yeah, I just feel like, you know, obviously over a period of time, like things can become mundane and I just looked at it for what it was, right? I was like, you know, because I had been in treatment a couple of times, I'm, you know, I'm not like a one, one time wonder. You know, I had to fall on my face a couple of times to really feel it. But I feel like, you know, it gets mundane and repetitive and, you know, you miss your family and friends and I feel like, you know, like, yeah, I was able to make calls through the therapist's office. You know, like once a Week. But, you know, sometimes it's just nice to check in, you know, just let. Let someone know where you're at, you know, someone that knows you for where you've been, you know, So I love the concept here of, you know, how things are done. And obviously, you know, after a certain period of time, you know, the. The clients are viewed here as guests, you know, because their. Their day's done is kind of what Mike was talking about. And I just think that's. That's. That's important for them to feel that, you know, because they. They feel that sense of responsibility to do when you're given a leash, in a sense, you know, it's like, you know, show. Show us that you want this, you know, and then those are the. Those are the people that typically get it, you know, And I just. For me, right, it was just, you know, I came down to a point where it was just like, all right, am I gonna allow this stuff to consume me, or am I gonna put an effort to, you know, put the action forth of just getting better and not ever having to go back into one of these places again? That's just really what it got to for me. Just being sick and tired of being sick and tired, you know, getting the same result every time, wondering why, you know, in a sense. But I realized I never really put forth the effort to be disciplined with my recovery, to be disciplined with other things in life, you know, so that's. That's really where it is for me today.

Mark (12:05)

It's pretty awesome because I can. I can look back, and I remember seeing on Facebook and LinkedIn, all of a sudden, you know, you're having new spots, you're doing amazing things, talking about your recovery, I'm like, damn. And this is brave, you know. In your healing and in your treatment, was there any training on kind of how to reintroduce yourself to society and be open and vulnerable about your experience?

Stephen Sundquist (12:34)

Yeah, I think it just came down to just walking through that fear and just freeing myself from whatever I thought I was holding back, you know, and that was kind of like the aha moment for me when I shared about some stuff that had been, like, kind of swept under the rug over the years, you know, and just voicing that and seeing the feedback from other people that were in the group at the time, like, damn, like, thanks for sharing that, man. You helped me so much. It's just like something clicked for me in that moment, you know, And I was like, wow, okay. I see the importance of the power of my voice. And me sharing my truth, you know, it's just touching so many lives. So that's been a constant theme for, you know, most of my sobriety.

Mark (13:11)

That's good, man. I'd imagine, you know, White Sands is the same thing, right? They. They really prepare people to go out there and feel comfortable and not pay for the past. Because I think, I mean, look, man, let's be honest. Like, you know, we had an off camera conversation just about life situations and how a lot of times people hold you hostage, who you were at that time. How is it for people, you know, coming out of White Sands and even for yourself, reintroducing yourself back into society and people have that label on you, Right. Or might, you know, because. Because for me, dude, I didn't know that. I didn't know that about you. Like, it wasn't like an overall, like arguing like this dude is, you know, addicted to, you know, medication. Right. It wasn't in my circle. Like, I didn't, I had no idea. But my, my long winded question is, is actually pretty simple. I'm just having a hard time getting to the point, which a lot of times I do. Right. I ramble. But. But it's like the people that come out, right, and they feel like this new lease on life and they get back into the same circle potentially, and the people on the outside hold their past against them. That can't be good for them.

Stephen Sundquist (14:18)

No, I think it just comes down to, right, you re evaluating, you know, what's important in your life. Like, I had to do, and I still do it like every year. Right. It's like a thing that's just become naturally. It's like, you know, if it's not serving you, unfortunately, it's not really as important in your life as it once was. And that goes for friend groups and places to hang out and just things change, you know, and it just comes down to what is, what is adding to your recovery. You know, if someone's, you know, talking negatively about you all the time and they're probably not the best for you to have in your life, you know, so my friends groups changed over the years. Obviously, you know, I'm not finding myself hanging out in bars anymore and things like that, but it's just, you know, things change.

Mark (14:58)

So, you know, here, you know, is there, is there with some of the treatments here and even, I mean, there's outpatient therapy. So to be clear.

Stephen Sundquist (15:07)

Yeah.

Mark (15:07)

This is just not an inpatient facility where you come to detox for 10 days, you can become a guest here for 30 days, and there's outpatient stuff. There's family counseling. Right. There's a bunch of different things. Do you guys prepare them for the potential? Like, hey, this, this is, like, this could be imminent, that you're changing friend groups and you're gonna have to leave people behind.

Stephen Sundquist (15:29)

Yeah, there's constant redirection with that, you know, preparing for discharge. Obviously, there's a whole process that we do before someone is ready to discharge. We're going to make sure that they have resources lined up for. Have that support and accountability. But yeah, man, it's. It's. It's something that's always being addressed. You know, it gets brought up in groups, too. They'll have process groups where everyone will give feedback around, you know, the things that, you know, they're talking about like that.

Mark (15:55)

I think it's important, right, because when you're in treatment and you're healing to have that open conversation about going back out there and the, the adjustments that you may have to make in your life, I think it's really cool for people, especially here. I mean, you know, and again, we got a lot of video of this place, man. I can see this place as people hanging out, you know, when it's rec time and being like, you know what? I'm really scared about this when I leave here. And it could be this conversation that one person's vulnerability, you know, about their fears, opens up everybody else to talk about it, and then all of a sudden become like a community and support group that when they do get reintroduced back into their normal lives, they're able to call on each other, man, and go over these things.

Stephen Sundquist (16:44)

Yeah, there's a. There that. That was probably one of the most, you know, beneficial times. Right? Just, you know, conversing with the community and conversing with, like, the. The support staff like we were talking about out there. You know, those were some of the best conversations I had in treatment, you know, and eventually it's cool to see where you know, the other clients or guests, you know, they're. They're. They're able to hold another client accountable, you know, for. For where they're at. And that's the, that's the coolest part about this whole thing.

Mark (17:12)

Well, the thing that I really love, too, about this place is not just the bells and whistles, man. It's the people that work here. I, again, I alluded to it earlier, but most people in here that work here have gone through it. Now, everybody always says, what do I do in this world? Like, who am I most equipped to help? And the answer always is you're equipped to help and support the person you once were.

Stephen Sundquist (17:38)

Exactly.

Mark (17:39)

You know, I mean it. That's a mission here, you know, like you, you can't lead people from their hell, you know, out of their personal hell or their personal jail unless you've been through it, because you don't have, you don't have any sympathy. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. Not because I wouldn't want to, but like, I don't have the reference, I don't have the experience in this.

Stephen Sundquist (18:03)

Yeah, those are, those are the things that I love to touch on, man, and, and talk about on, you know, platforms and stages. Like that vulnerability piece, man, like if, if I didn't tell somebody, they probably wouldn't know I had been through that today, you know, whereas, you know, I can literally bring up the exact emotions, the exact feelings of how it feels to be stuck in that place and a slave to a substance, you know, and it's just, that's the relatability factor that sometimes can help people get through those early phases. Because I know that I couldn't have done it if someone else hadn't came to me and said, hey, listen, I've been through this, you know, just, I'm gonna take you through this, you know, just trust me, you know.

Mark (18:42)

Well, I'm interested because I've, like I said before, I've never been, you know, addicted to a substance, to where it has a stranglehold on me. What goes on psychologically when you're in the middle of it, you know, you need to stop because it's potentially going to ruin your life or lose your life, and then, you know, still go and like, okay, well, last one, right? This is my last one. I would imagine there's a lot of that, but psychologically, what, what do you go through during that?

Stephen Sundquist (19:08)

Just, it's. It's like a never ending rat race, man. You know, you, you can have the best intentions one day and wake up, say, you know what? I'm not gonna do it today. And then, you know, an hour or two later goes by and some. Something happens right out of our control like most things are in life. And, you know, that's. Then it restarts the insanity in your head where you can't get that obsession out of your head until you put one in your body. And, and you know that that is the stuff that people want to hear, right, of just like how to break through that, you know, and typically, you know, there's never a good time. That's, you know, you're gonna align that says, you know, today's the day. I'm gonna go get help. It never happened like that for me. But, you know, I can tell you if you're, if you're in that place, you're feeling stuck, there is a better way out. And there are people like us that are willing to help at any given moment. But it's, it's just, it's an insane cycle, man. It's just, you know, you, you, you, you can try to trick yourself any which way on. Okay, I'm gonna use just on the weekends or I'm gonna use only on Friday or, you know, and it, It'll never, It'll never, you'll never, you'll never get out of it like that.

Mark (20:15)

You know, it's. It's crazy to me because, you know, now it's different. And what I mean by that is I want everybody to hang on here. It. One pill can literally kill you now.

Stephen Sundquist (20:24)

100.

Mark (20:25)

So, you know, back in 17, you know, granted, you're probably getting it prescribed or whatever, but, you know, people getting, you know, these pills on the streets, it can literally kill them. Story for you. Two years ago in, In July. Two years. It was two years in July. My former first baseman at Canterbury, Evan Ames, had an injury at Chipola Junior College where he dislocated his elbow. And he was in a lot of pain. And in my humble opinion, he rushed back. He should not have played that that same year. And he did, and he did okay. But, you know, he came home for the summer, right? Had his 20th birthday or something like that in June. And, you know, he was going through a lot of. And his prescription ran out and he went down to San Carlos, you know, Fort Myers, got one, and there was, there were six pills in there. And he took a quarter of one. He died. And I just.

Stephen Sundquist (21:22)

Fentanyl.

Mark (21:22)

Oh, it was definitely fentanyl. Oh, one. One billion percent was fentanyl. So, you know, all to say, you know, and again, there was. They, they found what was in there, you know, and there was only a quarter of a pill missing. He wasn't abusing it. An addict would have taken one or two. He took a quarter of it and he had a dirty pill. And it's something that I feel like it needs some major awareness, because it does. It could be one time. There's, there's, there's kids. There's kids that are in college that are under so much stress. Like, I just need Some Adderall. So they go buy Adderall and it kills them because it's laced with a deadly dose of Fentanyl. So this is a big problem in our country, you know, how do you think that? I mean, I don't want to get political, but I know there's, you know, different things going on in Texas. We're trying to keep fentanyl out of the country and everything like that, but, man, like, in my day or your day, if we were doing something like that, there was no such thing.

Stephen Sundquist (22:26)

Yeah, they're counterfeiting, you know, Xanax pills. I've even heard of it being laced in some marijuana for some of the adolescents to, you know, get a hold of, man, It's. It's terrible. But, yeah, that. There's. There's so many counterfeit pills all over the place. I've lost so many people to, you know, that stuff, too, man. It's just. It's insane. But, yeah, there. There's got to be something that. That can be done to prevent that. And it's political.

Mark (22:51)

I mean, it is political, right? But I mean, it. Let's go there. It's like, why are we not. It's just like school shootings. Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (22:57)

Yeah, right?

Mark (22:57)

Not just like it, but it's like, we're talking about deadly, right? I want Navy SEALs or retired veterans at every entrance of every school on the roofs. Like, you see someone going on site, boom, you're done. Like, why risk the life, right? Same thing with Fennel. We know it's killing people, but we're not doing anything about it. Or we may be. I mean, but it's. It takes a while to get it out, right? I think now current administration's doing. Very focused on. Very focused on it, right? But. But, dude, it. It is a scary thing, man. And to your point about marijuana, I was having this conversation with my wife one day. I'm like, when we were kids, if we decided to do something stupid, you know, out behind the. The portables or whatever, or, you know, with your buddies at a party, which was never what I did, right. I was always hitting in the ca. In the. In the. In the garage until my hands bled. So that was my excuse, not to go out and do stupid shit. It's like, no, I just got to get better, so I'm not doing that. But, you know, now you do something stupid like that, you could die. So it begs the question, right? Like, that substance is readily available out on the street, but also in dispensaries, it's almost Like I would. I would rather it, you know, like a 20, 21 year old kid when he's 21 to walk into a dispensary and get it and then not die. But I know we're not here promoting the legalization of marijuana, but my point is, could save them from getting a dirty dose or for sure a dirty dime sack. Is that what they call it nowadays?

Stephen Sundquist (24:31)

Playing Russian roulette, in a sense, out there with the drug dealers on the street, man, you don't know what you're gonna get. I mean, I know they got like these fentanyl testing kits, but how many are they accurate? I don't know. I mean, who knows? I never used one, so I don't know.

Mark (24:44)

Wow, man. I don't think it was even a thing back then, was it?

Stephen Sundquist (24:48)

Fentanyl was. Was slowly making its way towards the end of 2017 for me. There was. There's a couple of times where I feel like there was some stuff that I had expressed for sure.

Mark (24:59)

Wow, man. Wow. Scary.

Stephen Sundquist (25:01)

Yeah, it is.

Mark (25:01)

It's scary.

Stephen Sundquist (25:02)

Yeah. To be honest with you. I mean, I'll be real when I'm in that place. Like, I didn't care about living or dying, you know, it was just about getting the next one. That's how crazy this go on that. Because it's. You just get to this place where you're just. You lose all control and you need that fix to. To feel like you can survive, you know, and it's just. You just don't care, you know? And like, obviously, like, if I would have been real, I really didn't want to die at the time, but, you know, it's just like the emotions and just how dead you feel inside, you know, just. I didn't care at a time like, you know.

Mark (25:38)

Yeah. It's kind of like I'm gonna do this.

Stephen Sundquist (25:40)

Yeah.

Mark (25:41)

And if that's my fate, that's my fate. Yeah. And then I'm out of pain, right? Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (25:44)

Yeah.

Mark (25:44)

Does that ever cross your mind?

Stephen Sundquist (25:46)

Yeah, it did, but I always played it forward, right. And thought of like my family or, you know, my daughter now, you know, like that's a. That's a whole nother ball game, you know, but that, that would be. That would be tragic, you know, And I never wanted to leave my family with that. Thank God it never happened. But, you know.

Mark (26:02)

Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (26:03)

Yeah.

Mark (26:04)

It's heavy, man. You know what I mean? Because I don't know what it's like, you know, Like, I know, I know at a very small scale, I think truly There was a food addiction, but not the same. Yeah, yeah, not the same. But I can also relate to. I just need that cookie. And then I'd eat that cookie, and then I would have more and more and more, and I would binge. I would binge on it. Right. And so I would imagine something like that is infinitely less serious than having depend on, you know, a drug like a. Like a real, real drug that can literally take a hold of you and. And control your whole life. I can't even imagine because at times I felt like I couldn't control it again. It was painful, and it was like, you dress in the morning, you don't feel right in anything. You feel horrible. I can't even imagine what it's like overcoming what you and so many people in the center are. Are working to overcome.

Stephen Sundquist (27:15)

Yeah, there's a lot that goes along with it, obviously, like the. The emotional and mental side, but the physical, like, your body just deteriorates. Like whenever I'm, you know, whenever I was, like, strung out on. On opiates or pain pills, man, like, I have lost so much weight drastically. Like, you know, it's just.

Mark (27:31)

That was a healthy.

Stephen Sundquist (27:32)

Very, very healthy. You could see it, you know, and, you know, everything within that person most of the time wants to deny that there's a problem, you know, and it's tough for a lot of men to ask, you know, for help, first of all. So I feel like that's kind of what prevented me from asking for help for so many years. Although I knew I needed help, I just couldn't, you know, get the courage enough to ask for it, you know, and it wasn't until someone came along that pretty much told my story. I'm like, all right, maybe this guy knows, you know, and those are the people that I kind of immerse myself with just to stay in the middle of it.

Mark (28:07)

The weight loss.

Stephen Sundquist (28:08)

Yeah.

Mark (28:08)

Is that just because you wouldn't eat? I mean, is that.

Stephen Sundquist (28:10)

Yeah, yeah. I think for the most part, curbs your appetite, but, you know, I think there's also some things in there that deteriorate muscle growth and stuff, too. Yeah, I would assume. Yeah.

Mark (28:20)

When you were doing that, were you still lifting weights? Something active? Now you're just. You're just out? Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (28:24)

Yeah. Just full blown. Yeah.

Mark (28:27)

Who was the catalyst for you, man, that. That led you to your recovery?

Stephen Sundquist (28:32)

A couple of guys that I met in AA that had been in the middle of the solution for years, and they were guys my age. You know, they just pretty much took me under their Wing, you know, introduced me to their contacts and just, you know, built a support group for myself.

Mark (28:49)

So you were trying, like you were, you were, you were actively trying and going to try to get help. It was just, you know, you needed a little bit more support.

Stephen Sundquist (28:55)

Yeah.

Mark (28:56)

Yeah. That's pretty awesome. Not awesome that you're in the situation, but also that you were trying. Yeah, because a lot of people are forced into it, you know, a lot of people that are forced into it. That's a longer road to recovery, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (29:07)

There's, you know, they have things like the Marchman act, which is a involuntary commitment to treatment. You know, if someone displays signs or symptoms that they're a danger to themselves or others, there's laws to get someone help.

Mark (29:18)

But how's that different from the Baker Act?

Stephen Sundquist (29:20)

Baker act is just more of a.

Mark (29:25)

For a message from McAfee, I'd say.

Stephen Sundquist (29:27)

Howdy, but I'm not a real cowboy.

Mark (29:29)

And I'm not a real alien.

Stephen Sundquist (29:31)

We're deep fakes. And because of fakes like us, it's hard to tell what's real unless you have McAfee. McAfee's scam detector automatically identifies text and email scams and even deep fake. And it works everywhere, even out on the range.

Mark (29:45)

Yee haw. But you're not even a real cowboy. If they're faking it, they're not making it past us. Get award winning scam detection today, mcafee.com/, keep it real.

Stephen Sundquist (29:55)

Like mental health. Correct. You know, if someone is, you know, say, suicidal. Right. You know, they're maybe not necessarily struggling with substances. It's just a psychiatric hold for 72 hours, get them evaluated, maybe placed into a facility where the Marchman act, it's a similar process, but it's more geared towards getting them to treatment for an extended period of time. So it saves lives. You know, it's there for a reason. But it's, it's definitely, it's not the prettiest process, you know, for, for having it all unfold how it does, but it does work, you know.

Mark (30:25)

Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (30:26)

Florida is one of the only states that has that law, too. Well, there's, there's another one in Kentucky called Casey's Law. It's very similar.

Mark (30:34)

But yeah, you know, it's funny, I was having a conversation. I can't remember what show it was. It was a journalist and was on Fox for many years and he's got his own thing going on now. If the Baker act and the Marchman act will work in Florida, why Can't it work in Massachusetts? Why can't it work in California? Why can't it work in Idaho? You see my point? So if you see something that's working.

Stephen Sundquist (30:53)

Why I feel all states should adopt that, because I don't get it. You know, in. In the work that I do for interventions, you know, there's. There's so many times where I've been in a state where there isn't like a involuntary order, they'll call it something else. I think Massachusetts, like a 5150.

Mark (31:10)

But it's California, too, I think.

Stephen Sundquist (31:12)

Yeah, it's. It's all, like, psychiatric stuff. There's nothing geared towards treatment and getting them, you know, committed to a facility for an extended period of time. So the Marchman Acts is actually up to 90 days, too. So that, you know, promotes, you know, healing at the end of it, you know, with the longer length of stay, you know, obviously will correlate to more sobriety for most people.

Mark (31:33)

But, yeah, it just. It's. It's a question that I really, you know, I wish we could find the answer to. And again, I'll go back to school shootings. There's a solution. Why aren't they doing it? My buddy Patrick Dearborn always says they. Whoever they are, they want us fighting. And it's wild to me because the human life is so valuable no matter what. There's. There's plenty of tragedy that goes on anyway, right? There's. There's car accidents, there's. There's work accidents, right? There's cancer, there's heart attacks. Like, why do we need so many other things going on if they could be fixed?

Stephen Sundquist (32:16)

Yeah, I agree.

Mark (32:17)

Is it money? I don't know.

Stephen Sundquist (32:20)

I don't know, to be honest with you. I just know that, you know, I feel like every state has the ability to do it. It's just something. What is it? What's holding them back?

Mark (32:31)

Every. Every state in the Union has the resources to. To guard our schools, too. I mean, look, I hate to. I mean, like, listen, we're talking about it, right? Because, you know, it kind of ties in. You know, we're talking about fentanyl. We're talking about getting that out of our country and saving lives. We're talking about kids. Do you think it's fair that, you know, in three years when you drop your daughter off at school, that you got to worry if she's going to come home every day?

Stephen Sundquist (32:54)

Yeah. No, I don't.

Mark (32:55)

That's just because I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna be real with everybody watching. Listen, right now, my biggest fear every single day is when my kids go to fricking school and they're at a prep school, okay? And they have armed guards on there and they have bulletproof windows. It's still. Every time my kids leave the house, I go out in the car and I give them a kiss. No matter what's going on, sometimes I, I, I, I love bomb the shit. I'm like, let me get, let me get that other kiss. I love you guys so much. Have a, have a, have a safe day. Have a great day. Honestly, it scares me when my kids and my wife leave the house every morning. It's not fair. No. Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (33:35)

It's not something you should have to think about.

Mark (33:37)

But America is one of the very few countries, I want to say the only country, but the trolls and the fact checkers might hit me on this one, but I'm gonna say the only country where parents have to worry about their children every single day going to school. It's like, what are we doing? Like, what are we doing? Anyway, we're getting sidebar. But it, but it's important because it, again, I truly feel it all ties in. Like, there's ways to remove drugs, Fentanyl, from the streets. And again, I think we're, I think we're doing a better job at it now. I think there's a lot of focus on it. But all to say, I want to change lives. I want to help people's life get better. So just the opportunity to do that with you, for someone I've known for so long and watched grow into everything that you're doing and watch you grow in your recovery and you getting out there, you know, in front of cameras and press and telling your story, man, it just means so much.

Stephen Sundquist (34:31)

I appreciate it, man. And likewise for you, dude, you know, starting in your car and look at you now. Top, top ranked podcast in the entire United States and global, right?

Mark (34:41)

I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's hard because the rankings never have, like, global rankings, right? You have on Spotify, you have, you know, United States. And you can filter it down, right? And then you go to Apple and you can filter down to your category and then overall, right? And here's the thing, there's about 6 million in the United States of America. There's a ton. And I'll get pissed when I drop to like 60 overall, right? But the thing that's interesting to me is that there's you know, there's some softwares like Mopod, you can go and you can, you know, click on this, this link and it's, it's always changing. It's always updating so I can put my show in there and see where I'm ranked. Sometimes I'm, you know, top 20 in Turkey.

Stephen Sundquist (35:27)

That's awesome.

Mark (35:28)

You know, you don't, you don't know that, right? But it's like, it's one of those things that as long as we put good conversations out and we're having good conversations and we do things differently than everybody else, I think we'll always have a place there. And I think we're very close to a massive explosion. Like, it's just this energy I feel. I told a team that I was like, hey, I tell, you know, my friends that, you know, produce my show. Great media. I go, hey, put your seatbelt on, guys. They're playing things like, dude, we know. Yeah, we know you're gonna say it, you're gonna say it again. Like, but, but no, like. And it's funny because I'm pretty much right every time because there's a, there's a, you know, that, that hockey stick, right? It's like we're getting real steep and there's constant movement. And so with that said, when that happens, that's what I'm most proud of. That's what I'm most proud of. Like, you talk about the rankings, we can talk about all that. I love the rankings. I do. Would it be great if I, you know, got to number one? Absolutely. Because it means something different to me. See, this is, that's what people, most people don't understand. I put that stuff out there, I post about, I put my stories because I want to drive people to the show because I know at one point they're going to need to hear the guest. It's not about me, it's about the guest. If we can bring that value and help them change their lives, that's what I care about. The ego and the, in the pride. Dude, throw that out the window. I don't care. Yeah, I don't care.

Stephen Sundquist (36:53)

I think I'm all about, like, solution today and, you know, getting back to, like, the discipline part, man, like, that's, that's just like, I feel like every man aspires to have, like, that discipline where it's untouched, you know, like, you're just focused, deadlocked, you know, because that's when I feel like we're at our best. But yeah, I completely blacked Out.

Mark (37:19)

That's fine.

Stephen Sundquist (37:19)

I was just about to say what happened?

Mark (37:21)

Did he, did he, did he pass out on us? Guys, it's okay. It's fine.

Stephen Sundquist (37:25)

What the.

Mark (37:27)

But even with discipline, right? Like, let's just go out there because this is good. Yeah, this is what I, I like when we have real moments like that on the show.

Stephen Sundquist (37:34)

Completely just blacked out, though. I don't know.

Mark (37:36)

But that's normal. People can relate to that.

Stephen Sundquist (37:37)

Yeah, people.

Mark (37:38)

People are what? Like, yeah, I know exactly what happened because I do that all the time.

Stephen Sundquist (37:41)

Yeah.

Mark (37:41)

Right. But here, here's the thing with it. It is, is the discipline part, right? It pays to be disciplined. Because through discipline, discipline, you gain confidence. Through confidence, you gain momentum. Through momentum, you gain more activity. And through activity, you gain results. But at the same time, I think it's also super important for everybody. Watching and listening is like, there's a such thing as being overly rigid and disciplined. You have to enjoy your life a little bit, man.

Stephen Sundquist (38:07)

Like David Goggins type dude.

Mark (38:10)

But it works for him.

Stephen Sundquist (38:11)

It does.

Mark (38:11)

It does that. That's his playground. I mean, like, I was messing with Ryan before. I'm like, don't get me eating this donut on camera. No, how about that? And I was joking. I went like this to it. I was like, that's balance. Yeah, of course I'm gonna have that.

Stephen Sundquist (38:22)

Of course.

Mark (38:23)

But then I know the rest of the day I need to load up on solely proteins and whole foods. Like, I can't play. I can't play later. I probably can't play tomorrow, but today I got me a nice Krispy Kreme donut, man. Like, that was good. It just, it's just the funny thing about discipline, right?

Stephen Sundquist (38:41)

Yeah.

Mark (38:41)

This is the thing is there can't be too much of everything. There's, like, there needs to be, you know, a healthy balance to what we're doing. And I. And back to White Sands. That's what I see here. See, I don't believe balance exists in a work life balance scenario.

Stephen Sundquist (38:59)

I, I, yeah, I've always tried to attain it, and it always seems like I'm searching for it.

Mark (39:04)

Do you know why?

Stephen Sundquist (39:05)

It's just things are always ever changing. I feel like you're. Nothing stays consistent.

Mark (39:11)

You're. You're in great shape. So you lift weights, right. You have your daughter, you have a job, you have to sleep. What else? You have to eat. You have to manage your friendships. A potential romantic relationship. That's seven things. Can you give eight hours a day to each one of them? Balance doesn't exist. You can't do it. Right. What we need to really shoot for is presence.

Stephen Sundquist (39:33)

Exactly.

Mark (39:34)

And so when you're with your daughter on the nine holes, right, the par three course that she took her two, three weeks ago, it's not about staying there for the 18 holes. She's two. She can't do it.

Stephen Sundquist (39:44)

Right.

Mark (39:45)

It's hot. Like, come. Come get your girl, bro. Right, But. But you had those moments with her, and you were present with her. That's what wins. So our children and our spouses and our friends, they just want us to be locked in on them, even if it's for an hour.

Stephen Sundquist (39:58)

Yeah, exactly.

Mark (39:58)

Right. And. And it sucks because these stupid devices, like, I'm sitting here with you, and, you know, at one point me and you're sitting down, ready to record the show, I'm like, oh, but we have to do that. I mean, it's, you know, in the morning, like, I'm not gonna let a, you know, a forest fire burn if I can put it out. And same thing with you. Right. We have people that are dependent on us, but balance is. Is something that I don't believe is achievable. If you're looking at it, to equate it to something like evenly balance things now or time, you know, must spend four hours here, four hours here, six. I mean, you can't do that. But here, this is a very balanced and neutral place. Meaning you have water features, you have all these different. A gym. So people can live a life and try to balance as much as humanly possible between mental and physical health and spiritual health.

Stephen Sundquist (40:55)

Yeah, it's the approach here Mike was talking about outside, it's just about the whole person. The whole person centered approach. Right. With just the holistic, you know, healing, you know, the mental approach, the physical. I mean, it all correlates to overall wellness for anybody, first of all, especially for people in recovery. So, yeah, I think it's. I think it's a great approach. I think it's the only approach that ever worked for me, to be honest with you. You know, I've tried a bunch of different modalities of therapies over the years, and, you know, just the. The holistic approach is. Is typically the most universal for most people.

Mark (41:28)

You brought up a good point. Because addiction and whether it's binge eating, whether it's drugs, or even, you know, certain websites for people, there's something going on with the person. Yeah, right. There's a root cause. The other stuff's a symptom.

Stephen Sundquist (41:47)

100.

Mark (41:48)

So you have to attack the root. Right. And that's a hard thing to do.

Stephen Sundquist (41:51)

Yeah. So that's kind of like what all of the clinical team's, you know, role here is, to kind of like push these individuals here to discover their why. Why, you know, why did they start drinking at 15 years old or why did, you know, they become addicted at 40 years old? Later in life, there's always an event, at least in my experience, that, you know, is traumatic in the sense that either shut someone down or maybe they learn a bad coping mechanism from that experience. And it just, you know, and then they find alcohol one day or they find, you know, whatever it is, you know, I feel like each person's journey is different in a sense, but, yeah, I feel like they're. Martha listens to her favorite band all the time.

Mark (42:33)

In the car, gym, even sleeping. So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live. She saved so much, she got a.

Stephen Sundquist (42:45)

Seat close enough to actually see and hear them Saw dog, you were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you.

Mark (42:54)

More Expedia made to travel savings vary.

Stephen Sundquist (42:57)

And subject to availability.

Mark (42:58)

Flight inclusive packages are at all protected.

Stephen Sundquist (43:00)

There's always an underlying issue of why people become addicted in the first place. You know, for me, it was, you know, underlying trauma as a child, you know, or, you know, how I chose to suppress things that were negative in my life, you know, and I just kind of pushed them to the side, you know, later in life, I realized that, okay, I'm a. I'm a runner, you know, and bad things come up. I. I'll just disappear. I don't. I don't address it, you know, and that was like a. Another awakening in a sense of, you know, I didn't discover that till a couple years into my sobriety. You know, it was like, okay, like, this is a. This is an issue. I need to. I need to look at this, you know, and. And. And put some effort into, you know, how can I, you know, not be that way? And, you know, now, like, the. The alternative to that is, you know, if there's an issue in a relationship or, you know, whatever, I have to address it immediately. And it's like that internal voice in your head that tells you, get up and make your bed or get up and, you know, do this. And then we choose to go against it, you know, that's when things get hairy for me, you know, and I.

Mark (44:01)

Feel like, yeah, no, sorry, great perspective, because Outside looking in, I would say your impending event was your injury. Now potentially your injury was the impending event that played on your childhood trauma that caused this. So it all you see this equation here is that you have to know these things, right? Why did I binge eat? It's not because I wanted to look like shit. It's not because I wanted to feel terrible in the morning and my body ached from inflammation. It was, it. No, it wasn't. It's because I didn't feel like I was enough.

Stephen Sundquist (44:34)

Exactly. Yeah. It could be simple as just grief and loss too, or, or you know, self esteem issues. Like it was for me at times, you know, like I was always thin growing up. I always wanted to be, you know, a little bit bigger, a little more filled out. So it was like inferiority complex growing up a little bit with that. There was a bunch of different things going on, you know, and it just comes down to talking about it to, to, to discover it, you know, and once you discover it, then you can start to recover.

Mark (45:00)

Amazing. I, I want to, I want to. I, I can't, you know, conclude the interview without touching on the clinical team. Dude, because you've, you've mentioned clinical once. That was the original thing I wanted to go back to. And then I blacked out. I just didn't admit it. I just kept fucking rolling like, baby, keep going, baby. Is the clinical team is second to none. And I want you to edify them a little bit. Talk about the experiences, you know. Met Lindsay here. She's diving in hard on the EMR system. She's like locked in at 8:30 in the morning and intense and super smart.

Stephen Sundquist (45:35)

Very smart.

Mark (45:36)

I like her. Even though she's from Vanderbilt. It's fine, it's fine.

Stephen Sundquist (45:39)

Yeah, very smart. So what I will tell you is that most of the therapists here have been here for an extended tenure, which says a lot. I feel like, you know, clinicians are hard to come by. Good ones that, you know, give it their all. And, you know, Lindsay's had it all starts with Lindsay. Lindsey Henry's the VP of Clinical services at White Sands. And she's phenomenal what she does, you know, has a grasp on everything that happens here. And all of her therapists are, you know, tenured by at least five, six, seven, somewhere here, 11 years. And I just feel like that speaks volumes of the programs, at least from my past experience working for other providers. You know, there's a revolving door of therapists, you know, and they never really seem to find the fit long term. That Makes the program up of what it is. And I just feel like once you have someone here that knows the program, knows how things work, you know, things just flow way better and clients get better experiences at that point.

Mark (46:35)

I think that's your guys secret sauce. Yeah. You know, yes, the facility's great. All the different things that they, that you can do here while you're, while you're a guest here. But the clinical aspect and the longevity of everybody here, that's what sets this place apart.

Stephen Sundquist (46:49)

Yes.

Mark (46:50)

Right, Right. We're not having a ton of turnover here. I say we like I work. We're part of it, man. I am right? This episode is brought to you by Espolontequila. Slow, sticky, snoozy. They call these the dog days of summer. But espolon, they don't do boring. Welcome to the mark days. ESPOLontechila 100% Blue Weber Agave. Born to shake up your summer. Just add lime agave and a little attitude. Visit. 40% alcohol, volume 80 proof. Copyright 2025 Campari America, New York, NY. Drink responsibly. It's a. It's a thing where, when. When people are at a place for a certain period of time. Every single clinician, every therapist, every. Every part of support staff knows the pros and cons of everything that happens here. And from that point, you're a solution based person. They can find solutions, implement systems and programs to make sure. Right. That that doesn't happen. I just want everybody watching and listening to understand what that really means. That's big.

Stephen Sundquist (47:58)

It is. It is big. And, you know, I feel like, you know, especially with the ratio to patients to clinicians, you know, they keep it under a certain amount. So it feels like that individuality in care.

Mark (48:12)

Yeah.

Stephen Sundquist (48:13)

Which is so important for a patient to have adequate time with their therapist. I mean, like, that's your time to unload. You know, in the beginning, for me, it was really about unloading in there until I felt comfortable of unloading in a group setting. But that's where it starts, man. That's where the healing journey begins for sure.

Mark (48:29)

I love it, man. I love it. Dude. This has been fun, dude.

Stephen Sundquist (48:31)

Thanks, man.

Mark (48:31)

It's been a good time. One more question for you. This is the determined society, right. So I like to ask this question, what is true determination? How do you define true determination?

Stephen Sundquist (48:45)

I think it starts with discipline. Going back to discipline. Determination. I feel like action. Action is determination. You know, you like, I can dream all I want in my head, but if I'm not applying Action to that word, it means nothing. That's the part when you need to do it, though. That's when you need to do it, because that's when. That's when. That's when the change is made, man. That's like. Like going back to, like, the little inner thoughts in my head just telling me to do certain tasks throughout the day. I can ignore him if I want, but that's not going to make me better. It's not going to make me feel good. Yeah. I feel like determination is. Is acting now good?

Mark (49:24)

I love it. I love it. It's not as gritty and sexy as people think, right? It's showing up because you said you would.

Stephen Sundquist (49:30)

Yeah, of course.

Mark (49:30)

And that's the one thing that we love to talk about on the show. And I love when my guests bring that out because the listeners, they. They pay attention, right? The viewers, they pay attention and they. Everybody's looking for that silver bullet. What is going to make me better? What is going to make me more successful? And it's really about the one thing, the one thing that's holding you hostage. You take care of that thing, then you've got it. Like, you've. You well on your way to becoming much, much better. Because now, now you're not bogged down by this massive boulder, right, you know, sitting on your chest or your shoulders. I just think it's important to always ask that question and tie in, like, what. What if you don't want to?

Stephen Sundquist (50:12)

Right?

Mark (50:13)

I mean, I don't want to run tonight. Yeah, I'm gonna run tonight. Like, I. I must, because my team told me that I had to do a Spartan race with them. And I hate them every day, but I love them when I'm done with the workout, right? I love them. I love them. But, dude, thank you so much, of course, for coming on. This was truly an honor. I love the fact that I was able to be infused into your world for, you know, a couple hours today. And for the audience listening, if there's anything in your life that you need to overcome, obviously around. You saw the ad in the show, but. But really, you know, pick up the phone and call. This is a great place. And we just want you guys to feel good. We want you guys to heal when you need to so you can be with your families and truly enjoy your life. And this is the one last thing I have to say to you guys. Until next time, stay determined.