William H. Macy: From Shameless to Soul on Fire

Summary

Podcast Summary: "William H. Macy: From Shameless to Soul on Fire"

Podcast: The Determined Society with Shawn French
Host: Shawn French
Guest: William H. Macy
Date: October 10, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores resilience, empathy, authenticity, and transformation through a heartfelt conversation between host Shawn French and acclaimed actor William H. Macy. Centered around Macy’s latest film, Soul on Fire—the real-life survival story of John O'Leary, who was severely burned as a child—the discussion ventures deep into the human spirit, the impact of being truly “seen,” and the ripple effects of kindness. The episode is punctuated with Macy’s personal anecdotes, reflections on the craft of acting, and stories of family, growth, and adventure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Macy’s Role in Soul on Fire and the Power of Human Connection

[00:00–08:38]

• William H. Macy describes first reading the script:

  “I read the script early in the morning and I wept like a baby... The older I get, the easier I cry.” (Macy, 02:40)

• Macy plays Jack Buck, the legendary St. Louis Cardinals announcer who supported John O’Leary during recovery.
• The real-life Jack Buck was “empathetic, supportive, and quietly generous,” consistently visiting and encouraging John O’Leary.
• The theme: The lasting impact when someone “sees” another person—especially a suffering child—goes beyond any physical gift.
• Shawn French highlights how O’Leary’s perseverance made him reflect on the smallness of his own problems compared to great adversity.

2. The Thank You Note Story – Kindness Inspiring Recovery

[07:48–10:15]

• Jack Buck gives John a signed baseball, with a note: Write a thank you note to get another.
• O’Leary must learn to write again, despite his injury—motivated by Buck’s challenge.
• Macy:

  “He learned how to play piano with the stubs of his fingers. So writing was a big deal...He has a collection to this day of about 18 baseballs signed by his favorite baseball players.” (Macy, 09:21)

• The “small” acts compounded into real, lasting change for O’Leary.

3. The Importance of Being Seen and Respected

[10:15–12:45]

• Macy (and wife Felicity Huffman) discuss the healing power of being “seen” for who you are, not just pitied or overlooked:

  “Jack Buck walks in and he sees this kid... That’s powerful medicine to be seen.” (Macy, 11:21)

• The voice and presence of a childhood hero offer hope and connection, even on the brink of death.

4. Performance, Process, and Authenticity in Acting and Life

[13:40–16:30]

• Macy reflects on fame, humility, and the unpredictability of success:

  “We have control over the process, but it’s none of our business what the result is... Our purview is the work we do to make it.” (Macy, 13:58)

• Both Macy and French emphasize the importance of marrying oneself to process, not outcomes.
• Authenticity wins; trying to “be what people want” leads to failure and loss of self.

5. Lessons from Playing Jack Buck & Balancing Craft with Truth

[18:01–22:07]

• Macy discusses the challenge of portraying a real person, meeting his family, and not wanting to feel like a caricature:

  “I was self-conscious and shy about it... I prayed that [his family] knew I wasn’t making fun of his father or denigrating his memory...” (Macy, 19:19)

• Community support and collective willpower have profound healing power for those facing impossible odds.

6. Vulnerability, Self-Consciousness, and Celebrity Perception

[22:07–24:16]

• Macy addresses the misconception that actors are immune to insecurity:

  “I’m just an actor and that’s my purview...The actors have an inordinate amount of power on one hand and zero on the other...But my faith is in this, that when people see the film, they’ll have a moment...but God willing, that won’t last long and they will be subsumed by the story...” (Macy, 22:48–23:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity:

  “If you try to figure out what they want, you will fail. If you figure out what you want...do that, you still might fail, but you’ll keep your soul.” (Macy, 16:08)

• On Acting:

  “I say to young actors, lookit, you have to learn how to be genuine and sincere. And the second you can fake that, you can have a great career.” (Macy, 17:24)

• On Determination:

  “Envision it. If you can imagine it, you’re a lot farther along... Determination is figure go-arounds. Don’t give up. Get a good night’s sleep. Don’t despair. And don’t worry—because I’ve tried it. It doesn’t help.” (Macy, 45:04–46:21)

• On Parenting & Success:

  “I know a lot of people from Harvard or Yale...and they’re dumb as a bag of hair.” (Macy, 44:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to Soul on Fire and John O’Leary’s Story: 00:00–02:40
• Why Macy Took the Role; Portraying Jack Buck: 02:40–05:21
• The Human Connection, Faith, and Small Acts: 06:46–11:32
• Being Seen & Power of Presence: 10:37–11:56
• On Authenticity and Process: 13:40–16:08
• Vulnerability of Portraying Real People: 18:01–22:07
• Perception vs. Reality of Fame: 22:48–24:16
• Family, Growth, and Adventures: 27:31–34:37
• Parenting, Daughters, and Keeping Kids Grounded: 36:15–41:54
• Philosophy on Determination: 45:04–46:41

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After the Film: Macy’s Current Life and Future Projects

[27:31–34:37]

• Macy shares his excitement for new projects: The upcoming Running Man remake, TV series The Land, indie films (Train Dreams, Brian)—even performing ukulele gigs.
• He recounts recent adventures: Motorcycle trips across Europe, horseback riding in Kenya with family, and embracing new challenges outside his comfort zone:

  “Last couple of years, I have scared the crap out of myself. I did a motorcycle trip through Europe... I want to take a year off.” (Macy, 31:18)

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Family Reflections: On Raising Grounded Daughters & Parenting

[36:15–44:43]

• Macy beams with pride at his daughters, Sophia and Georgia—“the finest broads I’ve ever met,” emphasizing their empathy, frugality, and work ethic despite growing up in privilege.
• Parenting advice is focused on character, effort, and common sense, not just achievement or pedigree.

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Defining Determination and Success

[45:04–46:51]

• Macy recounts the story of a writer’s mother advising: “Find a different dream” after years of unfulfilled acting ambition.
• Imagination, persistence, adaptability, and not giving in to worry are Macy’s key ingredients for determination.

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Tone & Closing Thoughts

The conversation is warm, humorous, and deeply honest—balancing laughter with raw insight. Both host and guest show humility and self-reflection, illustrating the value of perseverance, empathy, and authenticity. Macy’s takeaways resonate far beyond Hollywood, offering lessons in embracing the process, nurturing genuine connections, and living a full, determined life.

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Highlight Reel:

• “There’s not a shred of self-pity in [John O’Leary]. We’ve got a phrase in my family: No self-pity in first class, honey. We’re lucky, we’re blessed.” —William H. Macy (02:49)
• “If you try to figure out what they want, you’ll fail. ... But you’ll keep your soul.” —William H. Macy (16:08)
• “Determination is figure go-arounds. Don’t give up. Get a good night’s sleep. Don’t despair... And don’t worry. I’ve tried it, it doesn’t help.” —William H. Macy (46:19)

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Transcript

[A]

I read the script early in the morning and I wept like a baby. Come on, John, stay with me. Wake up. Coming through, coming through. How bad is it? He has burns to 100% of his body. And then I think the thing that really set the hook for me was John o'. Leary. He is the most positive, upbeat guy in the world. There's not a, a shred of self pity in him. I think a lot of us, I know, I do, can feel sorry for ourselves very, very easily. In my family we say no self pity in first class. Honey.

[B]

My wife's an empath and she goes, hey, honey, I really want to watch this with you, but you're going to have to wake up early and watch it because I'm already anxious.

[A]

Probably when you're burned that badly, when you're in that much pain, you don't want to be seen, you want to disappear. Jack Buck walks in and he sees this kid and that's powerful medicine to be seen.

[B]

Just such a feel good story. I mean the whole thing, you know, that human connection and how humans really truly do at the heart of it, care for one another. All right, everybody. We are here today with William H. Macy. He's an absolute legend on the screen and he most recently in October, this amazing movie is coming out called Soul on Fire. And it's based on a true story about John o' Leary who as a young boy had a freak accident at home and burned 100% of his body. I read this book way back in 2016 when it came out and it changed my life. It told me that if this man can get through one of the toughest things in his life and, and basically get through a 0% chance of survival, that I can get through some of the smallest issues and, and the adversity that I have going on in my life. And today I'm so blessed to have William here and to talk about the movie. So welcome to the show, sir.

[A]

Thank you, brother. It's good to be here.

[B]

Oh man, I tell you what, you know, this weekend I watched the full. I Woke up at 5am and watched the full screening and it not only was it really. Yeah, it was. Not only was it really cool to sit there and watch something, you know, ahead of time that you're in, but to be able to really digest my experience with the book so long ago and then watch you and the other characters bring the story back to life for me, that made me just remember so much of the book, even to your character. You played Jack Buck, man, that was such a pivotal character in the movie, but also the book, you know. So tell me about your experience with. With this film.

[A]

It's similar to yours. Memory serves. I read the script early in the morning and I wept like a baby. I don't know. The older I get, the easier I cry. It's getting embarrassed. My daughters love one. They howl at me as we're watching television. A commercial comes on and I'm crying. And then I read the book afterwards. It's a magnificent story. And then I think the thing that really set the hook for me was John o'. Leary. He is the most positive, funny, upbeat guy in the world. There's not a shred of self pity in him. And I think a lot of us, I know I do, can feel sorry for ourselves very, very easily. We've got a phrase in my family. We say no self pity in first class, honey. We're lucky. We're blessed. And it was such a great story. And I got to play Jack Buck, the famous announcer. Fabulous voice, wonderful guy, interesting character, really interesting. Joe Buck, his son is still an announcer. And if I can be candid, I don't look anything like Jack Buck. And I like the idea of doing all that makeup. And as it turns out, I didn't do that much makeup. There's a bit of it, but it's his hair, which is his signature. And I decided early on that if my hair looked like his hair, I'm halfway home. And I thought that was enough. But Jack was an interesting guy. He was interestingly. And I got this from Joe, his son. He wasn't warm and runny with his family. He was a bit of a distant father, but so empathetic with these. In his position of being an announcer and famous in town, these stories would come across his desk. And he was so empathetic and he helped so many people. He did it quietly too. And this story, John o' Leary's story, is a perfect example. He didn't make a big deal out of it. He just showed up and he kept showing up. I love the guy.

[B]

You know, William, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of times if. If someone of great power, like the voice of the Cardinals in this instance did maybe go to the hospital once, right? But this man made it his mission to not just be there for him while he was in the hospital, when he asked, hey, shoot me straight to the nurse. What are the chances? And they're like, just to be candid, 0% chance that he'll make it through the night. But he told the chilling scene isn't really is because. Yeah, because that, that accident could happen to anyone. I remember growing up and I don't know about you, but I remember being a little bit risky. If I would find some matches outside. Kids are fascinated with fire. And this specific incident where John o' Leary was burned, he saw some kids in the neighborhood or in this community playing with gasoline in the open. His brother. Open area. Brother, was it? His brothers. Oh, wow. And raced home to do it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He saw the older kids at any rate, doing it. And yeah, I've been there. You've been there. And our parents have always said, don't do that. Kids are natural little pyromaniacs. It's so magical fire. And it's a danger. There's a left in here too.

[B]

It sure is. The thing that I really, again, obviously, the story is so real and, and it hits home because like we, we talked about, it could happen to any child, to anybody in this world. Right. Because it's, it's, it's not a plane crashing onto your house or something like that, some low percentage problem. It's, it's. You can grab a match, you can grab a lighter. Right. There's candles in houses. Right. You know, so it, it was interesting to me and it, my wife watched. My wife's an empath and she goes, hey, honey, I, I really want to watch this with you, but you're gonna have to wake up early and watch it because I'm already anxious because she takes on that pain. I'm like, babe, this is like a feel good story. This guy's life kept going. Like, I promise you, he lived and he made a huge impact and is still making an impact. But you know, when I look at everything that he went through and what was so heartwarming to me were the little things that your character did for him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Thank you note thing. The thank you note thing to me blew me away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk to your viewers. I want the audience to really. Yeah. They really need to dive. They really need to understand this portion. And we're going to take a quick break to hear from our Powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands and treatment centers and the Determined society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury top rated addiction treatment. From medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long term aftercare. Their resort style campuses, expert clinicians and holistic programs create real, lasting recovery. Together, we're committed to bringing hope, resources and healing to those who need it most. White Sands treatment centers.

[A]

He was. Jack was nothing but supportive of the kid, and he gave him power. I mean, when young John was still in a coma, Jack goes up to him and says, you're going to survive. And he says it in such a way that you just know that it gets through somewhere to his brain. And what you're referring to is that he invited him out to the ballpark to sit next to him during a Cardinals game. And one day in the mail, a baseball arrives signed by his favorite player. And there's a note saying, if you want another baseball by, I can't remember what player it was, write a. Write a thank you note. And what was significant about it was that his hands were horribly burned, probably worse than any other part of his body. And his mother famously said, okay, let's get back to our piano lessons. And he learned how to play piano with the stubs of his fingers. So writing was a big deal. And he refused to do it because he was in pain all the time, and he refused to do it. But when he could get another baseball writing a thank you note, he wrote it. And that goes on. He has a collection to this day of about 18 baseballs signed by his. His favorite baseball players. And Jack Buck did that. And he learned how to write.

[B]

Little things like that in this memoir and in this movie. Now, chronicling that memoir just touched me. And what really. I think what we're really talking about is, you know, that human connection and how humans really, truly do, at the heart of it, care for one another. And this was such a feel good story. I mean, the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah, the whole thing, yes. I think in our family, we talk about this. My wife Felicity, smartest person I've ever met. But the way she refers to it is being seen, especially for a little kid to be seen, that you're not just a kid, you're you and John o'. Leary. Probably, I'm just making this up, but probably when you're burned that badly, when you're in that much pain, you don't want to be seen. You want to disappear. You. And that was a theme in his life. The love affair is just great in this film, isn't it?

[B]

This really good.

[A]

He's really good. Good.

[B]

It's really.

[A]

Anyway, Jack Buck walks in and he sees this kid. He sees him. He really looks at him and he sees him. And that's powerful medicine to be seen.

[B]

You know, especially from somebody that you look up to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, he looked up to Jack Buck. I mean, he Would ride around the neighborhood, have his radio on, you know, just listening to Cardinal games. And quite honestly, when you're in a coma, I've never been in one, but I can only imagine they say that you can actually hear things. And I would venture to say that that man's voice to John o' Leary changed everything for him.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I know a bit about this because I've been making movies for a long time, and sometimes, well, for. I'll be in an elevator and I'll say something to someone, and I can see people go, wait a minute. I know that voice. Voices are powerful. Really powerful. And if all you are is a voice, I mean, Jack Buck did a lot of work, altruistic endeavors. But mostly we grew up listening to his voice on the radio. And when that voice is in the room next to you, it's mind altering. It's so bizarre.

[B]

It is. And, and I'll. I'll say this right now, right, because people ask me all the time, how is it interviewing these people? And when I'm in the interview, like right now, I'm in this amazing conversation with somebody that I've watched on the screen for how many years, and all of a sudden I'm having this amazing dial. It's a compliment. Okay? It's a compliment. You're an absolute icon. But, but, but I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, 10 years ago, I never thought I would be on a call with William H. Macy, but. But here I am. And then you. The voice happens and the connection happens, and it just. It does mean more. It truly does. So I think people, if they ever get to experience that elevator moment, the camera moment. Surreal, you know, but it's important to continue to dive deeper into that connection and the conversation once you're in it. And it's one of the things that I'm most blessed to have.

[A]

Yep, it's powerful. Our film and TV and, you know, the actors were. It's. It still has me flummoxed a bit. I mean, I'm me. I don't know how I got to be this. I don't fully understand it. I love acting, and I get that part of it. I know what the difficulties are. I know what to do when I pick up a script, and I know when I'm good and I know when I'm bad. But I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert who said, we have control over the process, but it's none of our business what the result is. It's none of our business what people think about the Book or the film, that's their business. Our purview is the work we do to make it. And so it's. It's a weird position. I'm not going to lie to you.

[B]

No, it is. And I. I'm relating to this because I always say, you know, it's one of these cliches ever says, marry the. Marry the. You know, marry the process, divorce the result. Right? So everything that I've done in my life, I really dive into process. Right? It's the why. It's screening the movies, it's understanding what I can understand, and then from that point on, have the conversation. I can't control how it's received. I can control how I am in the moment based on my prep work, based on what I've done to get here. But I fully subscribe to it's none of My Business on how people take what I say. Now, again, I know that loosely. Right, But.

[A]

And I know you've experienced it. I know you're walking around, somebody goes, dude, you're that guy. I watch you. I watch you all the time. It's heady, isn't it?

[B]

It's weird. It's. It's starting. You know, I'll be honest with you and the viewers right now, it's starting to happen. It's starting to happen at the gym. It's starting to happen at the baseball park. It's starting to happen in the gas stations. And it's really cool because the best compliment I get, they're like, wow, you're the same guy on camera as you are in person. I'm like, well, because I'm being me. This isn't an act. Like, I'm like. I'm real like it. This is exactly who I am. And I would venture to say because of who you are. Like you said in that. That thought process you have of yourself, you're like, I don't know how I got to be here. I'm just me. Well, that's what wins.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. That's. That's wisdom. I learned a long time ago, if you try to figure out what they want, you will fail. If you figure out what you want, what you think is good, what you think is funny, and do that, you still might fail, but you'll keep your soul.

[B]

Oh, man, that right there is so powerful because in a world of distraction, everybody's shooting or gunning for be somebody and something big, whether it's for themselves or they're for their families, they sometimes lose themselves and lose their integrity big time. Right. And I have an amazing accountability partner. You've mentioned Felicity, my wife Jacqueline, you know, she promised, she made me promise from the very beginning. She goes, you will always be you. You will never lose your integrity or you have to quit. I said, that's good. Done. It's good. And, you know, and it's, it's so important because that's how I feel. You can be massively relatable to anybody is when you be that authentic version of yourself and, and come from a place of a burning desire. Soulfully.

[A]

I say to young actors, look at, you have to learn how to be genuine and sincere. And the second you can fake that, you can have a great career. Oh, man.

[B]

Let me ask you a question. This movie, I mean, obviously it comes out in October, right? What for you? What. How did you learn from or grow from playing Jack Buck?

[A]

It's. It's a complicated question and it's. With all due respect, it's not a legitimate question because I, first of all, to make a film in order to teach people is probably the worst reason to make a film that I can think of. It's called Entertainment. Our job is to tell a story that is. Is true, first of all, true to the human experience and is entertaining. It's got a beginning, middle and end. That's the job. What did I learn? That's a complicated question. Do you know he's a real character. It's a lookalike. And I haven't really thought about what I've learned to that extent, except that if I ever do it again, I know this will affect that. And you asked earlier, what was it like to meet his son and his widow and his friends? And it was bizarre. And I was self conscious and shy about it because here I walk sort of dressed like their dad, their husband. And I didn't want it to be like a Saturday Night Live sketch. I wanted to make sure that they knew. I thought that in order to tell this story, it was important that I look like Jack Black Buck. And I don't know why I thought that. Well, I do know some of the reasons why I thought it was important to look like him or at least take some steps in that direction. And that's because he was so well known. And a lot of the people that will see this film grew up watching Jack Buck and grew up knowing what John o' Leary's story was. John, as you've hinted at, he gives speeches a lot. I don't know, 300 a year, something like that. Maybe that's not that many, but 150 a year. And they're very inspirational and they change people's lives. So everybody knows all the players. And I thought to tell this story well, I should take some steps toward looking like Jack Buck. But to get back to my point, when I walked in and there was his son, I was self conscious and a little shy and I just prayed that he knew that. In no way was I making fun of his father or denigrating his memory. Because it's close, but it ain't the same. It's just. It's weird. It has to be weird for them. So going forward, I mean, you know, to play Abraham Lincoln, you don't have to apologize to his wife. What else did I learn? I think I always knew it, but you touched on it. The power of a community surrounding you when all hope is lost. I really believe that the group has more power than the individuals. And I think that has a lot to do with why John o' Leary survived this. Because people willed it. And you can call it prayer and you can call it divine intervention. And I don't know whether it is that or not, but I do know that the community thinking the same thoughts and willing this thing to happen has power.

[B]

That was very beautifully said. And one of the things that you said in there is that you are self conscious, right. And I think that's a basic human emotion. But my viewers and my listeners, a lot of times and even myself in the, you know, maybe even back in the day, we would look at somebody like you or somebody on screen and be like, there's no way they have any self conscious thoughts going on. Touch on that a little bit. Because what I've found is that everybody in your position is really good at their job. Right. But they're also human being. And I think that a lot of times the public seems to disconnect the two.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm just an actor and that's my purview is rather small when it gets to a film that it takes a lot of people to make a film. And interestingly, the actors have an inordinate amount of power on one hand and zero on the other. If you don't believe me, just wait till they wrap you. You know, if you're a day player, once you're wrapped, get out of here.

[B]

See you later.

[A]

Before that, it's like, do you need anything to drink? My faith is in this, that when people see the film, they'll have a moment if they grew up in the area, if they were cardinal fans they will go, oh, yeah, he looked kind of like Jackpock. That's good. That's not good. That's him. But God willing, that won't last long and they will be subsumed by the story and they'll stop judging whether I'm a good look alike or a bad lookalike and be more interested in what I'm going to say next. That's the faith you have to have. And that's why when I met people that knew him, I was self conscious because it's not that good a look alike.

[B]

We were totally two completely different perspectives. Right. Your perspective and then mine as the viewer. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought, zero, I know who Jack Buck is.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I know who Joe Buck is. Right? I know, I know. I'm a baseball guy. I played, you know, Division 1 college baseball. I mean, I'm big baseball guy. That thought never crossed my mind. I was more diving into the seat. Right. So I think a lot of people really won't even go there for that. But I just, I just want you to know that it was a masterful performance. You were amazing. And it was, it was on the spot. It was on the spot, man. You crushed it.

[A]

I can't wait to see the finished film. I've seen, I've seen the cut when it was locked, but I haven't seen the finished film. And I'm, I'm going to be there for the opening and God willing, I'll be able to sit back and watch the film and not just stare at myself. I've discovered the first time I see myself on film, all I can do is go, how did I grow two years older in one year? But the second or third time I see it, I can get lost in the story and lose myself. And that's when I go, all right, I had some good moments. I had some stinky moments. Live and learn, Jubilee.

[B]

Yeah, it was a, it was a really good story. You guys told the story really well from what I know about it, obviously, and from the book. And then watching it, just like the love story in that as well. We, we alluded to it earlier. You alluded to it.

[A]

Macy was.

[B]

She was.

[A]

My favorite line is, how did you manage to nail her? That was, that was brave to write that. You, you got this gorgeous young woman. What the hell's going on?

[B]

I think one of the more powerful things is not underestimating people, because then, you know, and again, this will come out, obviously after the movie is out. Right?

[A]

But.

[B]

So there's no spoiler alerts here. But you know, when you look at certain things that, you know, his, his, his wife said in the movie, you know, when he, when he was courting her, is like a year. Why didn't you, why did it take you a year? And never underestimate me like that ever again. Because he just assumed that she would not be interested because of what he looked like and the things that have happened to him and that he had this wall built up.

[A]

Yep. They did a cagey thing by not canonizing him from the very beginning. He survived. That's the end of the story. No, he had his foibles and he, he's still growing. I know John o'.

[B]

Leary.

[A]

He's still growing and learning and he's still wrong. Sometimes that makes you love him even more.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, surely. Amazing film. And again, the whole cast did great and I can't wait for it to come out and, you know, see it out there on the big screen and everybody else be inspired by it. But look, man, you got a lot of things coming up. You're, you know, you're about to get back to work again. I don't know if you're able to talk about it, but I would love for you to share what you can.

[A]

I got a couple of scenes in the new version of the Running man, which I have not seen, but I saw some coverage of it and it's really exciting and I like my role. I'm here back in LA because there's a series starting called the Land about Cleveland and it's about the NFL and I play a team owner and I'll be doing that until March. Nice role, beautiful writing. And I've got a couple of other films coming out. One of them is called Train Dreams, which I saw it just killed it, Sundanced and sold for a whole bunch of money. Netflix bought it and I went to the Toronto Film Festival and I saw it there and it's a beautiful film.

[B]

Oh, I can't wait.

[A]

And I'm really. I just love doing it. I was really good in it. I thought it needed more of me and I did a film with my daughter. She. She's one of the stars of it. It's called Brian. It's a very small indie, a coming of age teen story, and it's delightful. She talked me into doing a couple of scenes in it and it's delightful. I can't wait for that to come out. And a bunch of others. I did a bunch of indies. I'm still working, I'm still, I love it. Plowing away at it. And I. The aforementioned ukulele. I do a gig at this theater called Taka in Basalt, Colorado. I've done two of them. I'm going to do four more. And I invite singer songwriters from the Roaring Fork Valley. And I do a set. They do a set, and I am sort of the master of ceremonies. It's sort of a retake of A Prairie Home Companion. And it's scary, brother man. It's scary to get up there and sing songs on a ukulele. But I screwed up my courage, and I've done it. The first one we got over. Second one was really good. So I'm now showbiz, you know, you would think, well, the second one was really good. You're home free. No, it makes the third one even scarier.

[B]

How can you do that?

[A]

We were going to do it every other month, but I got a job as here I am. So the next one is in January, the middle part of January, and then, depending on my schedule, the next one will be about two months after that. It's great fun. It's great fun and very casual. And I work with some fabulous musicians, and I am not a fabulous musician. Turns out I can write really good lyrics, and my tunes are passable, and my ukulele playing is good enough. But they say things like, what key is that in? And I go, I'm so sorry. I haven't a clue.

[B]

I don't. I have no idea. How'd it sound, though?

[A]

Watch my fingers and just do my. And then so they tell me, you know, you did a key change. I go, what's a key change? I did.

[B]

The thing that I love hearing is that you've built this amazing career, and now you, you know, you go and you. And you venture to something completely uncomfortable, you know, playing music in front of people and. And really diving into the ukulele. It just. It just goes to show that, you know, as human beings, we have to continue to challenge ourselves, stay uncomfortable, and look for growth any way we can. And ultimately, I think it may help your main thing that you do.

[A]

Oh, totally. And it keeps you young, keeps you alive. Yeah. The last couple of years, I have scared the crap out of myself. I want to take a year off. I did a motorcycle trip through Europe with these guys who were in their 20s. I thought I was going to die for 11 days. We started in Rome.

[B]

Tell us about that. That's wild.

[A]

We started in Rome. I did it with the folks from the Woody Creek distillery, and they were my age. No, nobody's my age. I'm the oldest guy on the set. I'm older than the teen now. It's daunting.

[B]

You ain't that old.

[A]

Started in Rome, we went up through the boot of Italy into the out. It was breathtaking. And then ended up in Germany for this big liquor show at the, whatever their version of the Coliseum is. And. And then about three months after that, Felicity and both daughters and her brother Moore Huffman and a friend, we went to Kenya and rode horses across Laikipia, which is just above the Maasai Mara, which is, I mean, all the animals are there. All of them. We saw them all. And we rode horses all the way. It was glamping, I will tell you that. I think there were eight in our party and about 25 people to take care of us, which I thought was about right. And I never fell off. They're all horsey. I'm not horsey. So I took, I took lesson for three months before we went. I never fell off the horse. But again, crazy. I got home and I said, I, I'm just going to take a Vicodin and stay in bed for a while now.

[B]

So when you say all the animals are there, what was the scariest moment, scariest animal that you encountered? Thinking like, wait a second, you're about 10ft from me.

[A]

The scariest animal animal was the horse between my legs. I didn't know what would happen. I saw my brother in law, Moore, these warthogs, a whole family, mom, dad and five kids went running out between the legs of his horse. And he had a hot horse. And this horse jumped two feet off the ground. All four legs were off the ground and Moore was right on it. He never lost his saddle. He was so cool. He wasn't ever in danger. I would have been in the trees, but we saw five. We weren't on horseback. At night we would take a jeep and go out and we had this magnificent Maasai guide who knew where all the animals were. And I finally said, how do you know where the big cats are? And he said, look at the zebra. I said, yeah. He said, look where they're looking. That's where the big cats are. And so we went and saw four lionesses, two juveniles, big but juvenile, and two older ones. One was clearly the, the alpha female. And we watched them take down a cape buffalo and eat it.

[B]

That must have been a wild experience to see that.

[A]

It was. Half the people in our party couldn't watch and the other half couldn't look away. It Was.

[B]

You were the latter, weren't you? You couldn't look away, huh?

[A]

Couldn't look away. It was as violent as anything I've ever seen. But there was no hatred, there was no animosity, there was no cruelty. It was just life. We saw. We didn't see any crocodiles, but we saw hippos, elephants. We rode with the zebras. It was stunning. It was stunning.

[B]

That's crazy. Did you guys see anything from the hippos? Because they're supposed to be the meanest, aren't they?

[A]

They are really mean. The cape buffalo, the most dangerous because they got a bad attitude and they can't see. There was a story of one of the guides. This is the third time my wife has done it and her brother. They saw this guide one time. They heard about the guide, the cape buffalo attacked the group. They all ran away. One of the ladies fell off the horse. He jumped off his horse and grabbed this cape buffalo by the horns and put him in the hospital. Broke almost every bone in his body. But it saved this woman. That's, that's brave.

[B]

That's, that's brave and selfless. Good Lord.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, man. And you've had some amazing experiences. You know, just you think about, you know, working, you think about being married and being a father. But I think truly one of the most, the, the greatest experiences that you could provide children is these types of things and, and creating these moments when you can.

[A]

Yeah, well, I can't take credit for it, but my daughters Sophia and Georgia are the finest broads I've ever met. They are fabulous women, just amazing. I'm so proud of them. They're Both in their 20s, they're 18 months apart. So it was sort of World War Three growing up. But they're now they're becoming the best of friends. They live about five blocks from each other in New York and they're successful and just great women.

[B]

That's amazing. It's funny because I have three children. I have a son who's almost 12, a nine year old daughter and a six year old daughter. So those two girls, it is like World War Three every flipping morning. William. Oh my God. Sometimes, man, I'm just like, I'll text my wife because she'll be at. If I get them from school or something or if I take them to school that day and she's already at her pre. My wife's a teacher, she's already gone. I text. I'm like, I don't know what's going on this morning. Like, I Am just trying to stay calm, but it just. I can feel my blood boil at times because you can't stop it. It's like this thunderstorm. It's this hurricane underneath your roof and in your home, and. And they're going, oh, it's. It's wild, that phrase.

[A]

She fights like a girl. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[B]

I mean, I see it every morning, you know, and it's also, too. I don't. I don't know what it was like for. For you guys, for your girls when they were, you know, school age and coming home, but I. But I feel like after school is always a dangerous time. Always a dangerous time in my household.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was an adventure, though.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, you're on the other side of it, though. You're watching.

[A]

We were all. We'd be sitting or we tried to have dinner every night, and we were successful with that. But they would start talking, especially when they were teens, they would start talking. And sometimes I would have to say, I'm here, I'm here. I'm a guy. I'm sitting here.

[B]

You know, it's wild like that. Because sometimes you can't control it because we do every. In the morning, I'm doing the breakfast, you know, and the kids are. All three of them are sitting at the. The kitchen island, and I'm having my coffee, and I'm just talking to him, you know, I'm. I'm there with them. And then on the weekends, we do breakfast, lunch, and dinner together. And every night we eat dinner as a family. Sometimes, to your point, William, the conversation gets away from the man, and the man does not know how to interject themselves back into the conversation because it just goes back and forth like, hey, guys. And because to me, here's what I say. There's a lot of arguments that happen at the dinner table. And I always say to my wife and I. And I look at everybody go, hey, I don't know what's going on, but, like, this is sacred time for me. Like, this is dinner. This is where we can connect. I want. I don't. Hey, listen, you want to tell me something bad that went on, that's fine. But I want to know how you can contribute to make it better. And I also want to know how you help somebody. Hey, I want to talk about some good stuff. But sometimes, man, it can get wild. It can get wild.

[A]

It's the table. It's the dining. Pete Gurney, AR Gurney wrote a play about it called the Dining Room. And the star of the Play is the table, and you go through the generations. A couple of actors play all the parts. All the big movements in life happened around the dining room table. It's a great concept. And it happened with us. And my daughters both said, we grew up with two actors, so it was tough to be a kid there because they said, I bet we'd start telling a story and both our parents would go, cut to the chase, honey, you're losing me. You know, drive to the curtain, drive to the curtain. You know?

[B]

You know, you mentioned how. How your daughters, you know, in your words, I think you said the most amazing two broads you've ever met. What about them do you love so much? I'm sure they're both different in their own right.

[A]

They're completely different, which is just flummoxes me. Same cook, same kitchen, same ingredients, and they could not be more different. What do I love about them? They're. They're disarmingly straightforward. They look you in the eye when they talk to you. They're kind, they're empathetic, they're smart as whips. They're not spoiled. And they grew up in rarefied air, and they are not spoiled. As a matter of fact, one of the recurring themes with me and my daughters is I would say, get a C. It doesn't matter. You don't have to have straight A's. Get a C. I tell them, if I had gotten a C, my parents would have bought me a car. I said, get a C. It's not that important. And the other thing is, with money, I say spend the money. They're so frugal, they're so worried about their finances, and they work really hard. They all have jobs. And I say, spend the money. You're a startup company. Go in debt. It's okay. So kind of not what you would expect with two kids that grew up in LA with movie stars. For parents, they are really down to earth.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, not just movie. You guys, you and Felicity are both massive movie stars. And to hear that you guys have raised children that are so grounded and so respectful of money and so respectful of everything, and even just working hard, it's, you know, like you said, they grew up in. In rarity. You know, it's in rare air where they grew up. And you, you brought up something very, very relatable for me. My son, when he hit the. The fifth grade and now he's in sixth, he says, I want straight A's. And I'm like, why? And he was waiting for me to finish. I'm. Why so? Because I want to be successful. I was like, dude, my GPA out of college was a 2.3. The only reason I graduated LSU is because if I didn't, I couldn't go play. Like, I couldn't play baseball. And, you know, now, again, I'm not knocking education by any stretch of what I'm saying, but, you know, I don't want the North Star to be performance. I want the North Star to be the effort. It's gonna be what it's gonna be if it's a 72. So he came home the other day with. He was, he was pissed off, got an 84 on a Spanish quiz. I was like, son, I studied with you for four days. Mama helped you. You know, you were doing your flashcards, you were doing your commands, you were doing your greetings, and you got an 84. He's like, I'm, I'm mad. He's like, I'm not mad. He said, daddy pissed. I was like, well, see, that's, that's your problem to get through. Because I'm proud because I saw you work, and if you earned a solid B, then great. Now your baseline is a solid B. So you give the same effort. Maybe next time you get an 86 or an 87, and then, and then you can continue to improve. I said, but, but, son, I don't need you to get straight A's. I need you to have a straight A work ethic, period. End of story. That's it.

[A]

I'm a little more blunt with him. I say, I know a lot of people from Harvard or Yale or Brown or the top notch schools. I know these people, and they're dumb as a bag of hair.

[B]

I've never heard that one.

[A]

Bag of hair. That's pretty good.

[B]

And bag of hair.

[A]

And I know a lot of other people that didn't go to college at all, and they're massively, massively successful. I, you know, what we push is common sense. Don't lose your common sense. I mean, we know what the answer is so often. I mean, sometimes we don't. It's a complicated life. But use your common sense. Does it make sense to you? You know, it's funny how we can talk ourselves into some really crazy stuff. It doesn't make sense.

[B]

I'm with you on that one. I'm with you.

[A]

It's been great, man. Thank you.

[B]

This is, this is so. It's so amazing. And just one more question before we wrap up here, but you know, the show is called the determined society for a reason. We live on stories of determination, overcoming adversity and, and telling stories. What, what, what to you is your best definition of determination?

[A]

I can't remember her name. Oh, I wish I could. She won an award for writing. I think a big award. Maybe it wasn't at the Oscars, but it was a big award and she wanted to be an actress. And her mother had said to her, follow your dream. Follow your dream. And after 15 years of not making it as an actor, her mother said, find a different dream. And she became a writer and she's massively successful. So that I get. I say envision it. If you can imagine it, you're a lot farther along. Imagine it. I'm a big proponent of that. And write it down, you know, make a list of what you want to do. Write it down. Once you know, determination is figure go arounds. Don't give up. Get a good night's sleep. Don't despair. And don't worry because I've tried it. It doesn't help.

[B]

I've worried nothing.

[A]

It doesn't help. It makes it worse. You've got to get lighter, not heavier. I don't know. Life is tough, man, and it's getting tougher. There's more and more and more and more of us. And the job mart is really tough. And I'm worried about it.

[B]

Yeah, I am too.

[A]

It's our. It's our goals. You know, what is a successful life? And I don't know the answer, but that's a good question to ask apropos of our film.

[B]

That is a good. Yeah, exactly. What is a successful life? Well, thank you so much, sir. I mean, it's been an absolute pleasure connecting with you and, you know, getting to have this conversation and talking about the film and all the other amazing films and shows you have coming up. You know, I'll watch them and you know, this platform is always here if you want to talk more about the other things you're doing so well.

[A]

Thank you for that.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much. And for the audience. Hey, don't forget, Soul on Fire coming out October. William H. Macy chronicling John O' Leary's life of being burned 100% of his body as a child. So thank you guys so much for watching, listening. Until next time, stay determined.