The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall

Bonus Episode: "A Second Helping from Satan: A Closer Look at Michelle Remembers"

Date: October 30, 2025
Guest: Shawn Horler (Filmmaker, director of Satan Wants You)
Host: Sarah Marshall

Overview

This bonus episode of The Devil You Know brings Sarah Marshall together with filmmaker Shawn Horler to delve into the origins, legacy, and disturbing details of the book Michelle Remembers. Focusing on Victoria, BC—the "witch capital of Canada"—they discuss how growing up there in the shadow of the Satanic Panic shaped Shawn’s childhood, why Michelle Remembers became a cultural phenomenon, and how the book’s personal and societal consequences echo even now. The episode is both memoir and investigation, blending personal recollection with documentary insight, and draws connections between the past and present-day moral panics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Growing Up in the Shadow of Satanic Panic (03:39–06:36)

• Childhood in the 1980s: Shawn recalls how Michelle Remembers and Satanic Panic were inseparable from his upbringing in Victoria, BC, saturated into everyday life through media, public service announcements, milk-carton campaigns for missing children, and community gossip.
  • “You had this constant threat that you are going to be… And plus, with my mom telling me… you’re responsible for [your sister]. …Cars would slow down because you’re on your bike and you’re like, is this the moment that it’s going to happen?” (05:00 – Shawn Horler)
• Local Myths and Scapegoating: Stories about Satanic cults, defaced cemeteries, goths as lurking dangers, and stores rumored to hide sacrificial altars dominated neighborhood lore among kids and adults alike.

The Unique Culture of Victoria (09:45–12:19)

• A British, Isolated, and Weird City: Victoria’s identity was a mix of colonial Britishness and liberal artistic eccentricity, with a significant presence of witches and magical practitioners—adding layers to its Satanic lore.
  • “It’s this weird mixture of that sort of conservative colonial traditions plus this new-age spiritual, very artistic folks…” (11:29 – Shawn Horler)
• Local Celebrities: Authors Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder (Michelle and Larry) were woven into community celebrity culture, discussed by neighbors, and fixtures in local media.

The Social Impact of Michelle Remembers (12:39–16:50)

• Rumors and Real Crimes: The disappearance of a child, Michael Donahy, years after the book’s release, was reflexively linked by locals to Satanism, compounding the trauma for his family.
  • “Not only did your child go missing, you would have to endure these ridiculous rumors that it was a satanic cult that stole him.” (13:23 – Shawn Horler)
• Book’s Ubiquity: Michelle Remembers loomed in many households, forbidden yet ever-present on bookshelves, with its disturbing cover art sparking nightmares and morbid curiosity.
  • “It's the kind of thing that would give you nightmares… my parents forbade, like, I wasn't allowed to read it. Sat on the shelf, my Mom.” (16:58; 17:48 – Shawn Horler)

Examining the Book as Literature and Phenomenon (20:25–29:58)

• Structure and Writing: The much-noted contrast between the gripping first chapter (“the promise that first chapter delivers is a book I would want to read…”) and the rest of the book devolving into undifferentiated therapy session transcripts.
• Ghostwriters and Publishing Motives: Discovery of multiple ghostwriters—one confirmed via letter—helped shape the book, perhaps explaining its uneven tone. The publisher, Thomas Congdon (who edited Jaws), saw the book as a major commercial venture.
  • “[Ghostwriter] I quickly discovered that Michelle’s story was difficult to believe. I eventually produced a manuscript… I don’t think they used it, but I’m not sure about that.” (26:26 – Reading of a letter to Horler)
• Role in the Panic: The authenticity conferred by therapy session transcripts made the book more compelling and “useful” for police and social workers, who built checklists from its content to validate other claims—fueling the panic’s spread.

Moral Ambiguities and Motivations (31:53–34:27)

• Gray Areas of Responsibility: The podcast dispels the binary of total innocence vs. outright manipulation, exploring Michelle’s partial culpability in perpetuating the panic after claims were debunked—such as continuing to give seminars and interviews fingering others.
  • “It raises an uncomfortable question for me. Like, what happens when a victim becomes part of a system of abuse and in a way becomes an abuser themselves?” (33:37 – Shawn Horler)
• The Role of Empathy: Both Sarah and Shawn reflect on ways people, driven by a longing to make sense of their own pain or the world’s, can get swept up in dangerous narratives.

The Affair, Personal Fallout, & the Unsung Hero (37:35–40:55)

• The Personal Betrayals: Credible research and oral histories reveal the book’s deep ties to the affair between Michelle and Larry, which cost their respective spouses dearly. Shawn sees the story now less as an exposé of cult crime than as an epic of deception and self-justification.
  • “The book…is basically a story about betrayal and the capacity to deceive ourselves and each other.” (38:44 – Shawn Horler)
• Mary Lynn (Larry’s ex-wife) as Investigator: Mary Lynn’s tireless efforts to uncover the truth and resist being gaslit are celebrated as heroic.
  • “Hey, Mary Lynn is an inspiration to me.” (40:07 – Shawn Horler)

Institutional Powers and Backroom Supports (35:27–37:35)

• Church Involvement: The Catholic Church played a real role, providing money and support for Michelle and Larry’s project. Father Guy and Bishop Remi de Roo are discussed as both facilitators and themselves figures of controversy.
  • “It was actually a donation from the church to help them write the book.” (37:07 – Shawn Horler)

The Legacy of the Satanic Panic & Hope (43:32–46:30)

• Echoes Today: The Satanic Panic’s dynamics—fear, scapegoating, moral crusades—have replayed in recent years with phenomena like Pizzagate, QAnon, and trans moral panics.
  • “How easily this can happen again. And really did, in a way, within our lifetime…” (44:19 – Shawn Horler)
• Reason for Hope: Despite mass delusion, a persistent minority always fights for evidence-based truth. That fact, for Horler, is the ultimate source of faith in humanity.
  • “There is always the subje[ctive] portion of the population will tell you, no, this is wrong, who believe in empirical evidence… Those people give me hope for the future of humanity.” (45:32 – Shawn Horler)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the ubiquity of fear in the 80s:
  “You had this constant threat… are we going to be stolen?” (05:00 – Shawn Horler)
• On local celebrity:
  “It’s not every city… has the bride of Satan living 10 minutes down the road from you.” (09:20 – Shawn Horler)
• On the book’s sensational material:
  “...piles of dead baby fetuses… all the Satanists from around the world bringing their own fetus and adding it to a big pile…” (22:48 – Shawn Horler)
• On the pleasure and horror of reading the book:
  “It's hard to read and it's not a pleasant read. And if you finish it, it’s an accomplishment, I have to say.” (29:48 – Shawn Horler)
• On the book as personal betrayal:
  “I cannot look at this book now without seeing it as… basically a story about betrayal and the capacity to deceive ourselves and each other.” (38:44 – Shawn Horler)
• On skepticism and progress:
  “There will always be people… who believe in empirical evidence, who will continue… to speak up and say, no, this isn’t happening, this isn’t real.” (45:32 – Shawn Horler)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:39–06:36: Childhood during the Satanic Panic; PSAs, community rumors, and formative anxieties
• 09:45–12:19: Victoria’s unique subculture and how it fostered witchcraft rumors and eccentricity
• 13:23: Real-life tragedies and how the Satanic Panic deepened the community’s pain
• 16:50–17:48: Michelle Remembers as a household presence and cultural artifact
• 20:25–22:48: Breakdown of the book’s structure; why the first chapter grips and the rest drags
• 24:00–29:58: Discovery of ghostwriters, publisher motivations, and the book’s sociological power
• 33:37–34:27: The uncomfortable ambiguity of Michelle’s role and the urge for simple villains or heroes
• 35:27–37:35: Church involvement and the practicalities of the book’s production
• 38:44: Reframing the book as a story of betrayal—real victims beyond the page
• 40:07–40:55: Mary Lynn’s story and citizen investigation
• 43:32–44:19: Parallels to modern panics (QAnon, Pizzagate) and warnings from history
• 45:32: Why skepticism and truth-telling are reasons for hope

Tone & Style

Informal, personal, and deeply researched; leavened with dark wit and empathy. Both host and guest are candid, occasionally wry, and committed to neither demonization nor blind exoneration.

Final Reflection

This episode doesn't just revisit the Satanic Panic's wildest claims and their eerie roots in a single book—it examines how stories like Michelle Remembers become social facts, the mechanisms by which anxiety and credulity spread, and the responsibility we all carry for sifting truth from fiction. Both Sarah Marshall and Shawn Horler argue for the crucial importance of skepticism, compassion, and learning from history—“because if you don’t, you’re doomed to repeat it.”