Shirin Amre (3:08)

We did get, of course, a lot of media traction from Europe. Ooh, exotic. It's hard sometimes seeing reality if someone wants to narrate it for you all the time.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (3:24)

Through it all, Shirin has resisted being pinned down to one label, something clear from her band's ever evolving sonic identity, sometimes infusing traditional Egyptian melodics, sometimes a jazz sensibility, and other times leaning in to that aggressive heavy metal vibe that drew Shirin to the genre in the first place. And this is a track from Shireen's latest EP essayed. It's called Schoolgirls, and it reflects on a point in Egypt's recent the opening up of higher education to upper and middle class women. It was recorded in Montreal, where Shirin has been living for the past 10 years.

Shirin Amre (4:19)

When I immigrated, I had to find a way to play music and keep the band going. But then the band members couldn't come, so I had the opportunity to work with other musicians and that opened the door for different type of music and different sides that I just stepped into. This new kind of thing.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (4:39)

That new kind of thing is actually something quite old. It's called Tsar.

Shirin Amre (4:46)

Tsar is a type of ritual where there is a belief that people can get sick because they're haunted by an outsider spirit. And Tsar is the ritual where you reconciliate with the spirit. So the Tsar leader would play the Tsar songs to get you into a trance and then based on your interaction with with the songs, the leader would know which spirit is haunting your body and then will guide you into a reconciliation. So it's not an exorcism, you're actually making peace with it.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (5:17)

Shirin is not just a woman who makes music about communing with spirits. Thirteen years ago, she was publicly accused of actually being possessed by one.

Shirin Amre (5:28)

It's so funny, because how did we get here that you might have planted the idea?

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (5:35)

In 2011, the Arab Spring sparked off in Egypt. It was a series of popular protests against political repression, economic inequality and police brutality. The mass demonstrations soon forced Hosni Mubarak, who had been in power for 30 years, to step down and paved the way for the election of Mohamed Morsi in 2012, a first for the country. But with all that uncertainty and unrest, the ground was ripe for a moral panic and Shireen was pushed to the front and center. This season, we've focused on satanic panics in the US and Canada. But satanic panics can happen anywhere. So let's find out what it really meant to be accused of Satanism in Egypt in 2012 and how being accused of making the devil's music led to Shireen rediscovering her own voice. I'm Mary Stephanhagen and this is the devil. You know.

Shirin Amre (6:38)

I remember there was a girl, we had a cabin close to the beach, and there was a girl that was way older than me and she used to sit with her guitar. And I said, wow, this is a very nice song. Who wrote this song? She said, I wrote this song. And I'm like, people can just write songs. This is like, I don't know why didn't hate me that I can just write songs. And then friends told me that my songs are nice, but also they told me it's dark. I just wanted to express. And there is a familiarity when you hear someone telling something that you're feeling and you can't express the intensity of the music. Also, there's a community, you know, there is a tight community in Egypt.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (7:26)

So how did you find bandmates? How did you find women who also wanted to do this?

Shirin Amre (7:31)

Oh, my God, it was hard. It was so restrictive. Like, I hate it. I hated the fact that I have to go and find girls to play music with. I did not choose that. Like, of course I love my bandmates, my ex bandmates, I love them. We still talk, we're still friends, and I owe them so much and they are fantastic people.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (7:54)

So it was not necessarily your intention setting out to have an all female band?

Shirin Amre (7:59)

No, my mom forced it on me.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (8:01)

Why?

Shirin Amre (8:02)

Well, you know, you see, I was in an all girls Catholic school. There is a segregation of, like. And I'm from Alexandria. This is kind of like conservative in a way. So when I wanted to play in the band, there was a band and I was singing in a band. And then I brought my mom to the jam session and she looked at the very isolated room that we're in and she's like, no, honey, it's not gonna happen if you scream, if they do anything to you, nobody would hear about you. I would have done the same. In a country with, I mean, sexual harassment laws were only introduced 10 years ago. So before that there was nothing. So, yeah, with lack of boundaries. Yeah, I understand. I would have done the same.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (8:49)

How were you treated initially by men in the scene? I mean, I imagine it's like a male dominated scene to begin with. So did they take you seriously? Like, how were you treated?

Shirin Amre (9:03)

Never. Never taken seriously? Never to the extent that I, for the longest time, and I didn't realize this until I read Someone reviewing my band and. And they belittled in me all the time. All the time. And when the band started playing shows and touring, it pissed. It pissed them off. Oh, it's because they're girls. I'm like, go get a female singer and let me know how you're gonna. We were just working so hard to be there, putting stuff out, sending to promoters. I know that I had very strong boundaries with them and we weren't friendly, but nobody can deny that we existed. That after us, more girls wanted to play. And our shows were packed. I had so many girls coming in with their parents. And we were good girls. We, you know, we're good girls. So the mothers came. They just wanted to see, you know, a respectful quote, unquote girl on stage. And we had that, you know, and I think we just played it within the. In a way. Still being criticized for doing it though. Had my siblings hated me for playing music. Nothing wrong was happening. But you know, it's pushing at that time, pushing the. Pushing the boundaries bit by bit. So it was not nice.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (10:25)

Do you remember your first public performance?

Shirin Amre (10:28)

Yes.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (10:29)

What was it like?

Shirin Amre (10:30)

We were just a three piece. It was at the Bibliotheque d', Alexandrie, the Library of Alexandria. It was just when it has opened, they had an art center. My mom was there and she said, you know, if any of your family, member of our family found out that you played that show, I'm gonna say I didn't know that you were playing that show. I remember someone coming to me backstage. Not even backstage, I'm still collecting my stuff. And my mom was there and she's like, I really liked your show. When is your next show? My mom responded, never. She's never gonna do that again. Never. And now that I've done what I've always wanted to do, her's done. Halas, stop it. You just wanted to do it. You did it. Done.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (11:17)

Yeah. Like, okay, let's let her get it out of her system now.

Shirin Amre (11:20)

Yes. Yeah. The only reason why the band got famous because we were in a movie that documented the underground scene in Alexandria. But yeah, metal is not famous at all. It's no. People who play metal are privileged people who have access to music in a foreign language. Guitars, all these instruments, very expensive. Access to specific type of education. Because when you access a foreign culture, it means that you have the means and the tool to access different type of education, which is not free. Languages are colonial. So the moment a country gets colonized, they change its official language and they do that to be able to control. So in order to access jobs, you have to speak that language. And in order to speak that language, you have to go to specific schools. But colonizer wouldn't just let anyone get into these schools. So there, there are some social barriers and they exist until now. And this is why it's a privilege. You can't just go in. Even if you have money, you can't just go in. You have to be born into it. When I was four, I was interviewed four, I was interviewed in my school and mind you, my school that I went to, it was not expensive. It was not expensive. It. It just had the barrier. I had to at 4 speak French. So yes, my mom made sure, my dad made sure to get the interview and then access the language. And then when you access the language, you access a culture.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (12:54)

Is that true of kind of what you remember of the metal scene? Like it's all in English and English, English focused?

Shirin Amre (13:01)

Yes, yes. Very westernized community. Yes. He want to be Americano. He was born in Italy. That was us. You know that song, you want to be an Americano, Americano, he was born in Italy. It's the same thing. Like you very Americanized communities, they speak in English all the time.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (13:25)

This idea of westernized. Can you tell me more about what you remember from that time about how metal was being talked about or treated by larger society?

Shirin Amre (13:41)

Media, metal, techno, trance, all of that was demons music, like, was very foreign, very weird. It was satanic music.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (13:54)

And when you say, like, people said it was satanic, people say that about metal music here in the US too. But I guess, like, you know, I guess you could call the US very Christianized. Very like Christian influence is very strong. So Satan can mean a lot of things, I guess. But there are some dominant ideas and ways of seeing Satan as like a real being active in society. So in Egypt at the time, how do you think the idea of Satan was being used? Like. Like what did people mean when they said this metal music was like satanic? Promoting Satanism, all that.

Shirin Amre (14:41)

Promoting Satanism. Satanism is a religion that is against the Abrahamic religion. And there are rituals that involves killing cats, sacrificing people, all of this.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (14:58)

Were you ever accused of doing any of those things? Killing cats?

Shirin Amre (15:03)

Not killing cats, but yes, Satanism, Yeah. Even from my own family, yeah, yeah, it was, it was not just me, it was a bunch of bands that during the Muslim Brotherhood, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood took. After the revolution, they took. They took in charge of the country for one year. And in that One year, they just wanted to prove that they can do stuff and, you know, like, fix the society. And by fixing society is the women. Honestly, like, whenever you like. Religion only applies to women, whether controlling their bodies, everywhere states with abortion, anywhere, anywhere. So at that time, they have offices in every neighborhood. And the lawyer of one of the offices was passing by this cultural venue where a metal band was playing, was a big actually show. He came in and it was towards the end and the band was headbanging. And of course people were headbanging. And the man who has never seen that so was like, what is this? Took videos, filed a complaint, and then we had a show a couple of days after. I think it was interesting for them because I. I had. I was screaming. And during the investigations, that voice was questioned. Like, how do you make that voice? It's demonic. I mean, I get it. If you think about it, like, people have never heard that before. And then, bam, Very soft. And the way I swing between the two voices, like I sing and then I scream. So it's. It's that. But I was at work. I didn't know about it. The office manager came in with the paper in his hand and he's like, m. Do you worship the devil? And he was very serious. And I'm like, what are you talking about? No, what are you talk. What. What did even. Why are you seeing even this? And he's like, isn't this you? And I'm like, oh, my God, it is me. It is me smiling very innocently backstage with my bandmates. And it says, the Satanics of Egypt. I mean, now I'm laughing. But I was. I was scared. I was very scared.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (17:27)

What was scary about it?

Shirin Amre (17:29)

Because people get very intense with these things. There's a justification for you to die, you know? So I was scared to be killed. I was scared. I had to had a panic. I had to panic. Had to call the venue and then go to the station, police station and just see what the hell is going on.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (17:51)

And what exactly was the crime that they were making a police report over.

Shirin Amre (17:56)

Spreading foreign culture against a family tradition and. And not Satanism. Atheism. Atheism, which is a crime in Egypt. Yeah, they've been doing investigations about metal bands since the 90s. They knew our names. The studio manager in Alexandria knew that. He would go every couple of months and they would ask him about, like, oh, tell us any of them doing alcohol. They knew our names. They knew that there is a girls band. They knew. They knew. They asked about us before they have all the information, this is just a. A show that was pushed for political reasons. You.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (18:52)

Shirin and the rest of the country had seen her face on the COVID of Roz El Yousef, a national weekly magazine. The headline, the Devil's Music. Soon enough, other media outlets picked up the story, accusing Shirin and other metal bans of undermining Islamic values, promoting atheism, and of course, your garden variety moral decay. The lawyer from the Muslim Brotherhood who filed the complaint against the venue had included dozens of photos and videos from inside and essentially alleged that the concerts were satanic rituals.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (19:26)

Heavy metal in the west has had the fair share of satanic panic. But musicians, they do not get jailed because of satanic panic in the west, they do get jailed because of satanic panic elsewhere. My name is Paskolina Eckerstrom and I am a doctoral researcher in the study of religions at the University of Helsinki, Finland.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (19:52)

I wanted to zoom out a bit and contextualize what exactly Shirin was going through. What Egypt was going through at the.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (19:59)

Beginning was not only her missing scene as controversial, her presence as a woman in this space as controversial by the society or families, but also by the community, the heavy metal community in Egypt that was very male oriented, so to speak.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (20:24)

And.

Shirin Amre (20:24)

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (20:33)

I got stories about the pioneers, the.

Shirin Amre (20:35)

Rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (20:39)

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that.

Shirin Amre (20:42)

Fast with no tires on.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (20:44)

It almost feels like your eye walls are going to come out of your head.

Shirin Amre (20:47)

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (20:55)

So this patriarchy was not only in society, but was also in the heavy metal community. And she was used basically on the magazine as the face of the satanic panic.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (21:07)

This wasn't the first time that heavy metal bands were targeted in Egypt. Back in 1997, the press circulated stories that heavy metal bands and their teenage fans in Cairo were slaughtering house pets and drinking their blood, having group sex and urinating on the Quran and the Bible. Egyptian police raided the homes of nearly 100 metalheads. They interrogated some about their religious beliefs and threatened them with legal charges of contempt of heavenly religions. Most were released and not charged, but only after they'd spent weeks in prison. And the ordeal had a chilling effect on the scene for years. In the decade or so since, the scene tried to fly under the radar. Venues often reviewed bands lyrics and wouldn't allow acts that they deemed explicitly political or offensive to religion. But in 2012, for Shirin, that was no longer enough.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (22:01)

Metal musicians, they got scared at the time, and so, yeah, it was a bit effective from that point of view. The scene really went underground. And then you have 2012 happening. And that was very scary because it was very political, because he was in the Muslim Brotherhood. And Morsi initiated numerous legal action against the media and journalists for offenses against the president and Islam. Thus, media and the press, I would say, was also under attack. So, no, I don't think that metal music was the only one, but it was a very easy target. They are dressed in black and they have skulls on their T shirts. Yeah, this was a bomb ready to explode in the case of Maslow's career.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (22:59)

So how in 2012 were they targeted? Like, what was the media and the police actually accusing them of?

Paskolina Eckerstrom (23:07)

The propaganda was not just against all satanic music, but it was, the west is coming for your children. Of course, if we go to Egypt, there is a complicated story with the west, right? So it was a very easy tool of inciting fear to say that the Western culture is coming to remove our Muslim roots and replace the culture with the madness of the West. Right? And what the west was doing, possessing the country and the culture through your kids. And this is also why I always say we don't have to look so much into theology to explain the Satanic panic in some of these contexts, because they are highly political. One quote from one of my participants says, we play extreme because our lives are extreme. So that's why they navigate towards such an aggressive sound. They do specifically use this as a formal transgression to affirm their agency. And this is a resistance that is overt. They want to be seen. They don't hide.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (24:25)

And so all of this means this panic was overtly political in a way that feels different than the ones we've seen in North America. As much as some cops and prosecutors might like to, you can't actually criminally charge someone for being a Satanist or an atheist for now. And then, if you're a woman like Shireen, your very presence is political too.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (24:46)

The male musicians who were interrogated, they were suspected of being an terrorist group, while Shirin, being a female, was interrogated for being basically a witch, for doing black magic, and for being basically possessed by Satan. You see the patriarchy also in that male musicians, they were proactive, right? From a point of view, they were accused of terrorism. But Shirin, being a female, she was possessed, obsessed she didn't have an agency.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (25:30)

The panic in 2012 turned out differently than the 1 in 97, in part because of how the metal venues had adapted since 97. They and Shirin were able to point to the many different tabs that the government had kept on them and their reputation as relatively wholesome. Shirin went down to the police station, did an interview, said the right things, and the complaint was dismissed. But that didn't undo the fact that she had literally been the face of the devil's music. She started to consider leaving Egypt for good. And in 2013, President Morsi was ousted by a military coup, which led to more protests and more violent crackdowns. She was living in Cairo at that point, which had been the epicenter of the Arab Spring demonstrations. So in 2015, she moved to Montreal, and there was one moment when that sealed her decision.

Shirin Amre (26:23)

I saw a woman getting raped in the square where people were protesting. It kind of, like, clicked that this could happen to me. If anyone recognized my face from that article, it was a panic. It was very impulsive. I don't know if it was rational or not, but it's been boiling up until now. I can't be in a crowd like people watching fireworks or chanting or shouting. All this is very triggering for me. I avoid all of this.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (26:51)

And, I mean, the music that you've been making since you left has been different. You know, softer pop music. And your solo stuff, do you feel like you've kind of left that behind as sort of like, things that you don't want to relive or. I don't know. Have you thought about it that way?

Shirin Amre (27:12)

At the beginning, maybe when I moved to Canada, but I feel like now I have reached a level of maturity to understand that the world is a very bad place. And Canada also is not that safe. If you're not cis, white straight, then, yeah, you're not. People are being killed for being Muslims or for looking brown here. So where does this leave us? So it's more of, like, looking for safety. You just have to surround yourself with people who accept you and who love you and. And I feel like maybe lately I've. With my marriage, I felt like maybe I'm at peace with that, that maybe it will come from here, my own family. But maybe that sense of belonging that I'm looking forward to and maybe missing, it's never gonna be there. And maybe this is the mourning and the grieving of home.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (28:08)

And so what drew you to this ancient tradition of tsar music? Like, what is it about tsar that Spoke to you.

Shirin Amre (28:17)

We've always had, of course, this tradition growing up and it was always frowned upon basically from the church and from the mosque because it's kind of like a. Like instead of reconciliating with God, you're doing this with an outside spirit.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (28:31)

And this idea of like the ritual being about making peace with the spirit rather than like an exorcism is casting the spirit out. What is sort of the idea from the beliefs behind it?

Shirin Amre (28:45)

Every spirit has a name and they embody you. So they visit you and they embody and it's like an inner dialogue between you and the spirit all the time and how you make peace with it. I feel it's from even a philosophical point of view if you don't believe in the spirits. But we do have those inner dialogues and we sometimes feel like it's. It's just not us sometimes, you know, when you're angry and you're blinded by anger and we never really personalized anger, but what is anger, you know, and how do you make peace with anger? And the trance is very interesting because once you are in a czar trance, you feel it. There is a similarity between a mush pit and head banging and a trance. There must be a reason why when we go into this mind of repetitive movement with very repetitive loud. Because the. The czar group is. Is around you. They playing the. Their skin. There's like skin drums and they are around you. They're here. The more you interact, they're here and it's like. It's like. It's like being in a metal show in a moshfield. Exactly. And I of course, resonated so much. And the metal musicians, the bizarre musicians, they've never heard of metal music. And at the beginning I was worried that they're going to feel like this is like what is that? But they just, they took it in. It just made sense to them. The screaming, the double bass, it's just. It's like a perfect marriage. It was weird.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (30:24)

How is R typically seen? I guess by like mainstream society in Egypt.

Shirin Amre (30:30)

Oh, demonized. The mask made a statement in I think late 80s that this is witchery. Sinful.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (30:39)

Yeah. And I guess as I was, you know, listening to your song and looking at our music, looking at your music and reading about it, I mean, I couldn't help but think there's a little bit of irony that you're making this music. Now, as someone who was once accused of like being demonically possessed, that's.

Shirin Amre (30:59)

It's so funny because how did we get here, you might have planted the idea.

Paskolina Eckerstrom (31:04)

Yeah.

Shirin Amre (31:05)

But there is one song called Ginni Alembu, which is a call for a jinn, a spirit. Right. It is that and it's a call, it's obvious call. So I remember it was one of the hardest song that I had to arrange. And I'm like, this is a very monotonic. There's not a lot of melody. It's more the, you know, the beats. And it's about the djinn of the fire and damn. And I used to wake up at 3am with the song looping and I'd be scared. Ironically, when I was sending the EP to my friends, some of them were scared of this song. Some of them were like, they were entering because we have this culture in Egypt that the bathroom is the house of the jinn. So one of them, who's very like progressive man, he's like, you know, as I'm going into the bathroom, I found myself having to turn off the song because I'm scared. And he's like, I have to shake this. Like, come on, come on. You know, like stuff like that. Another one. He's like, shirin, I had to leave the home so I can listen to this ep. He's like, I consciously made the decision I'm not going to listen to it at my home.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (32:18)

So it's not a song that people would probably be singing in the shower, let's say.

Shirin Amre (32:23)

No, I'm scared to sing it. I am scared of singing in the shower. I'm scared. I remind myself every time. Even with the Canadians, one of them is highly spiritual and he's like, are we. Is this. Are we doing any ritual? I'm like, no, no, there is no intention. We're just examining the cultural aspect and musical aspect of this tradition.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (32:44)

Are the spirits literal to you or is it more symbolic as like part of the music? Like, do you believe in any aspect of that?

Shirin Amre (32:53)

Yeah, I do believe. Yeah. As a Muslim, we do have that in the Quran. The Jinn. The jinn exists in the Quran, lives in the parallel universe. I think it's just spirits. It's impossible that we're alone. But we grew up. I'm Egyptian, so ancestry wither is always there. I believe in intentions. You know, when, when I fast in Ramadan, I have the intention of fasting. That's very different than me waking up and not eating. There is an intention and you have to set on the intention. And the ritual includes slaughtering an animal. And there is. It goes for three days, sometimes non stop. Non stop. So I. I know that I'm not doing the ritual and I do not have the intention. You know, funny though, I can't shake it. I grew up. I grew up into this culture. I grew up in it. So it's. It's hard. It's a little bit hard, yeah.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (33:39)

I mean, actually, this might be a good place to sort of wrap up, oddly enough, like with what you said about, you know, having this feeling of longing for just belonging, for home, for peace, for safety. Do you see your exploration of czar music as part of that? Within that?

Shirin Amre (34:04)

Yes. It was a healing thing for me. It was a healing project that when you listen to the lyrics, you will understand.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (34:11)

If you remember off the top of your head, can you give me like a line or two of those lyrics that, that you found to be sort of perfectly expressing?

Shirin Amre (34:20)

I have, I think, the translation. I asked the night about my loved ones, yet it returned no answer about those dear to me, those who have forgotten. I've been estranged for you for years. Reluctantly you forsook me and where can I find patience to endure? Thus the night unfolds in its brevity, seeming endless before me.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (34:46)

Is there a spirit that corresponds to that kind of feeling you just talked about, like searching, restlessness, longing?

Shirin Amre (34:55)

The Tsar group think that I have the spirit of the night. I haven't made peace with it, which makes sense.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (35:03)

Who is the spirit of the night? Like, what are they like?

Shirin Amre (35:07)

I also have a translation for that is a praise to the day and sun. The good are the spirits. Okay, so the good Aseid sings to the night, wishing it to end soon. Because the night is related to darkness, an evil spirit. I love how the the good as sings to the night, wishing it to end soon. So it's kind of like just. It's a beautiful conversation and I feel it every time.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (35:49)

Well, thank you so much for sharing with me and yeah, going back into those memories and feelings.

Shirin Amre (35:55)

Thank you so much. Bye bye.

Sarah Marshall (36:15)

Thank you for listening. Listening to the W know Our producer is Mary Stephanhagen. Fact checking by Katherine Barner. Production assistants by Nicole Ortiz. I've been your host. Sarah Marshall. Our sound designer is Evan Kelly. Roorkhni Nair is our coordinating producer. Our senior producer is Jeff Turner. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is manicure of crime growth for CBC Podcasts. Arif Nurani is director of CBC Podcasts.

Interviewer (Mary Stephanhagen) (37:32)

For more CBC Podcasts go to CBC CA Podcasts.