Podcast Summary: "A Second Helping from Satan: Satanic Injustice"

The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall (CBC)
Date: December 4, 2025
Guest: Josie Duffy Rice, journalist and host of Corruption Uncovered

Episode Overview

This bonus episode dives into how the U.S. legal system enabled and sustained the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 90s—a period when widespread moral panic led to false accusations, wrongful convictions, and cultural paranoia around supposed Satanists. Sarah Marshall and guest Josie Duffy Rice explore the systemic failures that let such panic thrive, examining how flawed justice processes, fear-driven narratives, and collective blind spots blurred the line between villain and victim. Throughout, they consider how these phenomena echo both in history and the present.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legal System as a Mirror (01:49–03:48)

• Systemic Reflection: Josie frames the U.S. criminal justice system as a reflection of broader societal weaknesses—driven by fear, incentives for punishment over problem-solving, and a lack of logical consistency.

  • Quote:
    “Our criminal justice system is a microcosm... of us. Right. It's prone to and corrupted by the same things—lack of logic, the same negative instincts, the same negative incentives we're all prone to, but on a much broader scale.” (02:27, Josie Duffy Rice)

• Fear as a Driver: The society’s approach to crime is primarily fear-driven rather than rational or proportionate to actual risk.

  • Quote:
    “We are not good at problem solving. We're good at punishment. And so much of how we justify terrible institutions and harm... is fear.” (03:12, Josie Duffy Rice)

2. Harmful Incentives and Systemic Punishment (03:48–04:58)

• Punishing Juveniles: Examples of how U.S. justice punishes children harshly and rewards false confessions through plea deals.
  • “We currently sentence some juveniles... to life without parole. We tell kids, we are going to put you in prison, and there is no chance you can ever leave.” (03:53, Josie Duffy Rice)
  • “Some parts of [the system] are really threadbare. It's not looking great...” (04:52, Josie Duffy Rice)

3. Historical Parallels: Salem Witch Trials, Modern Panic (05:00–08:22)

• Proof & ‘Junk Science’: Chat about how previous systems demanded actual proof for witchcraft—and how modern equivalents rely on dubious expert testimony and “junk science” instead.

  • “The concept of science, regardless of how it's being executed, can just, you know, it's a little bit like spectral evidence. You just don't need anything else.” (05:59, Sarah Marshall)

• Gendered Constructions: The demonization of women persists, with language echoing old tropes (e.g., framing women as “promiscuous” or “manipulative”).

  • “Women suffer a particular kind of cruelty in our criminal justice system and are still kind of framed as promiscuous or manipulative, crafty or masterminds. Right. The same kind of language that we used [in the witch trials].” (07:40, Josie Duffy Rice)

4. The Return and Persistence of ‘Satan’ (08:22–10:37)

• Projection and Guilt: The conversation spotlights how perceptions shift based on narrative. Once someone is a suspect, everything they do is scrutinized as suspect—even their grief.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Once people see you as guilty, it's very difficult to work yourself out of that perception because everything you do... is seen as, ‘Well, he would also… That’s what he would say if he were guilty, too.’ Right. It becomes very hard to kind of, like, keep hold of reality when you can spiral down the... ‘What if this person's a Satanist’ rabbit hole.” (09:47, Josie Duffy Rice)

5. Flaws in Human Judgement & Narratives (10:37–12:56)

• Faulty Intuition: We overestimate our own ability to ‘read’ others, illustrated by the Kuleshov effect and stories of jurors misjudging defendants based on emotional displays.
  • “None of us have a perfect trust thermometer, let's put it that way.” (12:19, Josie Duffy Rice)

6. The Folly of Outsourcing Investigations to the Untrained (13:01–14:10)

• Children as Witnesses: The lack of expertise in handling child witnesses led to poor investigations—a vacuum filled by parents and police with little relevant training.
  • “Being a police officer does not actually make you an expert at communicating with parents of toddlers who may have been sodomized. And the idea that, like, this is your job, so therefore you can do it, is so backwards.” (15:19, Josie Duffy Rice)

7. Single-Issue Focus and Neglecting Real Harms (15:32–16:31)

• Distracting from Real Issues: Panic over Satanists allowed avoidance of examining why abuse happens in the first place.
  • “One of the things about focusing on that problem is that you don't have to think about what causes people to sexually abuse children... we have been really great at finding distractions from that.” (15:54, Sarah Marshall)

8. Systemic Shortcomings in Addressing Harm (16:31–20:53)

• Reluctance to Understand Harm: The system resists preventive or rehabilitative approaches for fear of appearing to ‘endorse’ wrongdoers.
  • “We don't like that because we think that by trying to understand people, we are endorsing them.” (16:31, Josie Duffy Rice)
• Legal Limitations: The challenge of establishing sexual harm “beyond a reasonable doubt” and the resulting inadequacies of the justice system.

9. Lullabies of Evil: The Comfort of Simple Narratives (20:53–23:48)

• Good vs. Evil Distinction: The simplistic belief that “bad people do bad things” keeps us comfortable and distanced from the possibility of personal or peer wrongdoing.

  • Quote:
    “My inherent frustration with the narratives around this system is that they are lullabies. They are told to us to convince us that bad people do bad things, and as good people, we would never do those things…” (21:24, Josie Duffy Rice)

• Preference for Villain Narratives: It’s easier to imagine a vast Satanic conspiracy than to accept random or mundane causes for horrific acts.

10. The Danger of Collective Blame and Moral Crusades (23:48–26:42)

• Scale of Evil: Skepticism is warranted when a theory requires broad, organized evil by many people.

  • “If it seems like this thing requires many, many very evil people... not just kind of callous... you should ask some questions because usually that's not how people function.” (25:16, Josie Duffy Rice)

• Hero Complex: For law enforcement, finding “Satanists” fulfills a need for drama and validation in otherwise routine work.

  • “To be the cop who stumbles upon the Satanist cult, I think is in some ways probably validating of why the world needs you and why law enforcement is so important...” (27:20, Josie Duffy Rice)

11. Systemic Change & Community Accountability (28:23–31:13)

• Outsourcing Harm Reduction: Societal reluctance to address underlying causes fuels the myth of “evil others” and prevents authentic change.
• Community Solutions: Lasting accountability and prevention require real community investment and connections, not just emergency services.
  • Memorable Moment:
    Marshall and Duffy Rice recall Miriam Kaba’s prompt: “You hear your neighbor beating his wife. What do you do?”—illustrating how unprepared society is for non-police forms of accountability. (29:39–30:56)

12. Risk, Paranoia, and Missed Opportunities for Progress (31:21–34:58)

• Paranoia about Neighbors: Halloween panic is used as an illustration—true horror exists, but the majority of people are kind; still, fear persists.

  • “People compliment your child. People decorate for kids... And yet there is this fear of the candy that's been laced. It's not that it's not possible, but that it's not likely.” (31:55, Josie Duffy Rice)

• Addressing Boring Problems: Instead of sensational solutions, issues like child care and nutrition are crucial but overlooked.

  • “Maternal mortality is a problem in this country. Infant mortality is a huge problem in the US... We don't want to have a big headline task force about that because... we can't shift the blame to somebody else.” (33:13, Sarah Marshall)
  • “The system we have basically punishes people for poverty, takes kids away from their parents... puts them in foster care... doesn't address any of the problems...” (33:52, Josie Duffy Rice)

13. Society’s Role and Acceptance of Responsibility (34:58–36:39)

• Responsibility for Harm: Absurd tragedies (like a mother dying in a chase for stolen baby formula) are the result of collective social failure.

  • “At what point are we willing to take responsibility for our part in people's... If someone is killed running from cops for stealing fucking formula. That's on us as a society. That is. That's on us.” (35:26, Josie Duffy Rice)

• Comic Relief and Sad Truths: The hosts use The Incredible Hulk as a metaphor: perhaps the problem is not the “monster,” but the circumstances that create him.

  • “The Incredible Hulk is just a guy who gets really mad and then... scares the people around him and is uncontrollable. Like, that's crazy.” (36:03, Josie Duffy Rice)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “None of us have a perfect trust thermometer, let's put it that way.” (12:19, Josie Duffy Rice)
• “We are not good at problem solving. We're good at punishment.” (03:12, Josie Duffy Rice)
• “If it seems like this thing requires many, many very evil people... you should ask some questions because usually that's not how people function.” (25:16, Josie Duffy Rice)
• “Maternal mortality is a problem in this country. Infant mortality is a huge problem in the US...” (33:13, Sarah Marshall)
• “There's this real kind of sense we all have of, like, this guy could be scamming me... our vigilance makes us... better able to read people's true intentions versus worse...” (11:16, Josie Duffy Rice)

Segment Timestamps

• Introduction of theme & guest: 00:42–01:49
• Legal system as reflection of society: 01:49–03:48
• Harsh incentives for juveniles/admissions: 03:48–04:58
• Historical context: Witch trials vs. modern justice: 05:00–08:22
• Narrative-shifting & projection in criminal perception: 08:22–10:37
• Limits of intuition, Kuleshov effect, juror bias: 10:37–12:56
• Satanic Panic: flawed investigations, handling childhood evidence: 13:01–15:19
• Issues of distraction from underlying harm: 15:32–16:31
• Shortcomings in addressing sexual harm: 16:31–20:53
• Comfort of binary good/evil lullaby narratives: 20:53–23:48
• Scale and fallacy of collective evil: 23:48–26:42
• Law enforcement’s hero complex: 26:42–28:23
• Accountability, abolition, community connection: 28:23–31:13
• Halloween paranoia, real community, and risk: 31:21–33:52
• Child care, poverty, societal failures: 33:52–34:58
• Responsibility for system-created tragedy: 34:58–36:39

Tone & Language Notes

• Conversation is thoughtful, wry, and direct—often using humor to underline serious systemic critiques (e.g., polycules for toddler care, The Incredible Hulk as metaphor).
• Language is empathetic yet incisive, focusing on systems not sensationalism.
• Both host and guest emphasize complexity, pushing back against comforting binary narratives.

Summary Takeaway

Sarah Marshall and Josie Duffy Rice argue that the Satanic Panic was an inevitable outgrowth of a culture and legal system built on fear, faulty incentives, and a preference for scapegoating over systemic change. The episode asks listeners to recognize these patterns—not just in historical panics, but in the justice system and collective logic today. Ultimately, the hosts urge a shift from villain-hunting and paranoia to preventive, community-based solutions addressing harm at its root.