The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall (CBC)
Episode 2: "Marylyn Remembers"
October 27, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode explores the origins and repercussions of the Satanic Panic in North America, focusing on the infamous book "Michelle Remembers." Host Sarah Marshall sits down with Marilyn Harris, the ex-wife of Dr. Lawrence Pazder—the psychiatrist behind "Michelle Remembers." Together with other voices, including Michelle Smith’s sister Cheryl Proby Ostman, the episode investigates the personal and cultural ripple effects set off by the book: how it tore apart families, distorted memories, and ignited mass fear. Through deeply personal interviews and careful narrative, Marshall illuminates both the private pain and lasting societal damage caused by the Satanic Panic.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Spark: "Sybil" and the Power of Suggestion
[01:10 - 02:31]
- Marilyn recounts watching the movie "Sybil" (about a woman with multiple personalities and recovered memories of abuse), which deeply moved her psychiatrist husband, Larry.
- Larry immediately saw parallels between "Sybil" and one of his patients, Michelle Smith, believing she might have repressed traumatic memories.
“He just watched it for a few minutes and he said, oh, I've got a patient just like that.”
— Marilyn Harris [02:40]
- This encounter leads Larry to contact Michelle, initiating the events that would birth "Michelle Remembers."
2. "Michelle Remembers": The Book That Lit a Cultural Fire
[03:10 - 08:00]
- "Michelle Remembers" (1980) was co-authored by Dr. Lawrence Pazder and Michelle Smith, alleging Michelle suffered ritualistic abuse at the hands of a satanic cult as a child—memories supposedly recovered with Larry’s help.
- The therapy tapes were emotionally intense, often consisting mostly of Michelle’s agonized screaming and crying.
- The book was marketed as a true story, endorsed (even tacitly by the Catholic Church), and became a media sensation, shaping the cultural landscape.
“The conditions were right, the kindling was everywhere. But Michelle and Larry lit the match.”
— Sarah Marshall [03:10]
- The alleged abuse stories are recounted in graphic detail, including animal sacrifices and deeply disturbing rituals, sometimes read in Michelle's own words.
3. Family Reality vs. Book Mythmaking
[11:44 - 16:01]
- Cheryl Proby Ostman, Michelle Smith’s sister, gives a very different portrait of their childhood than the book.
- The Proby sisters were raised in a strict, sometimes fearful home, but nothing resembling satanic ritual abuse. Regular parental neglect or strictness was common for the era.
“We moved around every year and a half... I saw six homes in 10 years.”
— Cheryl Proby Ostman [12:25]
-
Both sisters recall quirky childhood incidents (like hospital visits from eating household items), some of which appear distorted in the book.
-
Cheryl and Marilyn both note that the book exaggerated and invented major details, turning the family’s mundane dysfunction into hellish fantasy.
4. The Real Pain: Domestic Violence and Loss
[16:01 - 21:44]
- Cheryl describes genuine trauma—their father's alcoholism and abuse towards their mother, Virginia.
“It was hard seeing your mom being beaten up... you know, he just got so nasty when he drank.”
— Cheryl Proby Ostman [16:30]
- Virginia’s death (from cancer) during Cheryl and Michelle’s adolescence led to further family fracture, not ritual abuse.
- Both women emphasize the crushing silence about abuse and emotion in the mid-20th century, highlighting how this cultural context allowed for stories like "Michelle Remembers" to fill the void.
5. The Aftermath: Book Fallout and False Memories
[22:08 - 24:06]
- After their mother’s death, the sisters drifted apart, and Michelle's life changed as she rebranded herself not only by marriage but via the "Michelle Remembers" persona.
- Cheryl recalls the confusion and doubt the book seeded, even within her—questioning her own reality and memory.
“I was lying in bed last night and I was thinking about how you create memories and how you create false memories... it totally distorted my thought.”
— Cheryl Proby Ostman [23:03]
6. The Love Affair Behind the Panic
[25:22 - 36:09]
- The episode details how, beyond Michelle’s “memories,” the therapy led to an affair between Larry and Michelle—both married at the time, with devastating effects on Marilyn and Larry’s family.
“It wasn’t just like an affair. They were just joined together. He was totally, totally, totally, completely obsessed with her and her story. And he truly believed it.”
— Marilyn Harris [36:09]
- Marilyn describes a slow-motion loss, watching her husband become a stranger gripped by obsession.
- Personal belongings and life were gradually overtaken by Michelle’s presence, leading to hostility, confrontation, and ultimately, divorce.
7. Investigating the "Truth" of the Book
[37:17 - 38:25]
- Marilyn did her own detective work, finding yearbook photos and school records definitively proving Michelle was not missing or held captive during the dates described in the book.
“She’s in the yearbook... we asked them, when is this picture being taken?... The neighbors had said that the mother attended church regularly. Sure enough, the records were there.”
— Marilyn Harris [37:43]
- Journalists and others also failed to corroborate the book's claims; there was a total absence of evidence for the described events.
8. The Enduring Impact and Personal Pain
[38:25 - End]
- Marilyn shares the lasting impact: shame, grief, self-doubt, and the impossibility of recovering from betrayal by someone once loved.
“I don't know if I ever did recover. I don't think I ever did. I don't think you ever recover from something like that.”
— Marilyn Harris [39:19]
- Sarah offers a powerful metaphor: Marilyn tried heroically but futilely to “stop the fire” of the Panic at its source.
“You were the person at the very beginning who heroically tried to stop the fire before it got too big... you did what you could, and thank you for that...”
— Sarah Marshall [39:52]
- The episode closes with Sarah’s analysis: "Michelle Remembers" is most frightening not for its horror stories, but for how it reveals the ease with which personal and societal desires can conjure – and destroy – realities.
“It tells the story of a man who leaves his wife by starting a holy war and seems to have lost a little bit of his soul in the process.”
— Sarah Marshall [40:38]
- The actual cultural panic outlived the marriage: the book became required reading among law enforcement and social workers, infecting a generation with suspicion and fear of “recovered” satanic abuse “memories.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the origins of Michelle Remembers:
“Michelle and Larry lit the match.” [03:10]
-
On domestic violence and social secrecy:
“In the 60s everything was pretty tight lipped, you know, it was a different era. You didn't talk about emotions, you know…”
— Cheryl Proby Ostman [18:21] -
On the collapse of a marriage:
“He became increasingly hostile, and he didn't seem to care. He didn't care about us anymore.”
— Marilyn Harris [33:36] -
On the impossibility of closure:
“Maybe he never cared for us. I don’t know, you know?”
— Marilyn Harris [39:19] -
On the cycle of belief and destruction:
“You were the person at the very beginning who heroically tried to stop the fire before it got too big.”
— Sarah Marshall [39:52] -
On the spread of Satanic Panic:
“Michelle Remembers became a trusted source for social workers and police officers... so did the idea that Satanists could be out there anywhere.”
— Sarah Marshall [42:47]
Key Timestamps for Important Segments
- [01:10] – Movie "Sybil" sparks Larry’s obsession
- [03:10] – Marilyn describes Larry’s fixation on Michelle’s case
- [05:26, 05:59, 06:49] – Excerpts from "Michelle Remembers"
- [11:44] – Cheryl introduced, family dynamic debunked
- [16:30] – Cheryl on father’s abuse
- [20:22] – Virginia’s (mother’s) illness and death
- [23:03] – Cheryl discusses confusion and false memories post-book
- [25:22, 27:26, 29:06] – Marilyn on her marriage and Larry's transformation
- [33:36] – The marriage falls apart
- [37:17] – Marilyn investigates and disproves book’s claims
- [39:19 - 40:26] – Marilyn on never recovering, Sarah’s "trying to stop the fire" metaphor
- [42:17, 42:47] – The book’s social legacy and Dr. Pazder’s rationale
Tone & Style
The episode is empathetic and reflective, combining investigative journalism with emotional storytelling. The speakers, especially Marilyn and Cheryl, are candid and raw, their insights underlining the human cost behind media spectacle. Sarah Marshall’s narration is both sharp and compassionate, drawing broader connections between personal trauma and societal phenomena.
Recommended For:
Anyone seeking to understand the real lives upended by the Satanic Panic, the dangers of unexamined belief, and the devastating ripple effect of false narratives and “recovered memories.” This episode is both a cautionary tale and a moving oral history.