The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall

Episode 3: Moral (Panic) Entrepreneurship
Original Air Date: November 3, 2025 | CBC Podcasts

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the mechanics of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 90s, with a focus on the role of "moral entrepreneurs": the experts, social workers, and media figures who legitimized and spread claims of satanic ritual abuse (SRA) in North America. Host Sarah Marshall investigates how moral panic took hold, how supposedly authoritative voices fueled it, and what it left in its wake—especially in the landmark McMartin preschool trial, which became a focal point of the hysteria. Insights are provided by Dr. Mary DeYoung, emerita professor of sociology, expert witness, and scholar of moral panics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Emergence of a New Crisis

• Introduction to Dr. Mary DeYoung:

  • Specializes in "deviant behavior," with a research focus on child sexual abuse.
  • Offers context on early 1980s America: cultural shifts, increased awareness of child abuse, and social anxiety (01:19–01:46).

• Igniting the Panic: The McMartin Preschool Trial

  • DeYoung describes being approached to testify as an expert without access to original evidence, a "shortcutting" of due process that sparked her skepticism (02:02–04:28).
  • Marshall explains that the McMartin trial brought the idea of SRA into public consciousness, amplifying anxieties about child safety (06:07–09:57).

• The Anatomy of Parental Fear

  • Marshall explores why daycares became focal points of fear: "They're full of some of our most vulnerable citizens, and we don't really know what they do all day in there." (08:43)
  • In less than a year, 400 children were interviewed in the McMartin case, fueling public hysteria.

The Role of Moral Entrepreneurs

• Who Are the Moral Entrepreneurs?

  • DeYoung defines moral panic as a collective reaction to social disruption, stoked by "moral entrepreneurs" who identify and sell a narrative involving "folk devils" (16:51–18:39).

    “I really like that term. But people who emerge, who sell the idea and target a particular group of people who are known as the folk devils, as being the source of the problem.” – Mary DeYoung (17:31)

  • Experts—often newly self-styled—on "satanism," "cults," and "ritual abuse" quickly emerged as authorities (17:44–18:39).

• Professional Fields as Vectors for Panic

  • Social work, therapy, and law enforcement, often loosely regulated, became breeding grounds for the panic (18:52–20:09).
  • Conferences, talks, and TV talk shows like Oprah and Geraldo spread suspicion and misinformation, serving as the "social media" of the era (21:54–22:55).

The “Evidence” and Its Flaws

• Symptoms and Diagnostic Lists

  • DeYoung reads from Kathryn Gould's widely circulated 1988 list of SRA “symptoms,” which included almost every childhood fear or behavioral problem (23:07–24:43).

    “Fear of ghosts, monsters, witches, devils, odd songs and chants. … Fear of closets, fear of being tied up… Mood swings, anxiety, poor self-esteem, withdrawal, regression…” – Mary DeYoung (23:15–24:20)

  • These all-encompassing lists “did not differentiate a satanic, ritually abused child from a child undergoing other kinds of traumas or stressors.” (24:50)

• Suggestive and Leading Interviews

  • DeYoung and Marshall discuss how interviews with children often became exercises in confirmation bias (26:10–27:04).
  • Interviewers, already convinced of abuse, “peeled the onion” with increasingly leading questions until children “confirmed” fears (27:13–29:41).

    "The child was really in a position of confirming the bias of the interviewer." – Mary DeYoung (27:55)

  • Even denials were seen as proof of abuse, a logic that trapped children and made true investigation impossible (42:25).

Why the Stories Spread

• Social and Psychological Rewards

  • Marshall and DeYoung discuss why involvement in uncovering SRA was attractive—offering drama, clear good-vs-evil narratives, and status for professionals (“reputation enhancement”) (30:37–33:22).

    "You're fighting evil, you are doing incredible work with something that, that no one has ever heard of before." – Mary DeYoung (31:19)

  • The SRA panic became an archetypal morality tale, satisfying deep cultural stories about innocence, evil, and rescue (33:26–34:59).

• Cultural and Political Resonance

  • The Reagan era bear-in-the-woods ad is referenced as an example of vague, fear-mongering messaging that primes society to react to unseen threats (34:59–35:58).

The Cost & Consequences

• Distraction from Structural Problems

  • DeYoung argues the panic distracted society from real sources of risk and abuse—namely, within trusted institutions like families, churches, and schools (36:18–38:00).

    "The question doesn't really lie with the child. It lies with us. It lies with the context... that's where the problem was." – Mary DeYoung (36:56)

• Flaws in the Legal System

  • The episode highlights how the panic exposed weaknesses in the legal system, especially in handling sexual assault (38:03–38:55).

• Lasting Outcomes—Good and Bad

  • Some positive changes resulted: more attention to daycare quality, licensing, and child interview protocols (39:05–40:30).

    "It really did draw attention to the state of daycare in America ... and to the way that children were being interviewed." – Mary DeYoung (39:47)

  • However, the human cost was immense: innocent people were accused, careers and lives ruined, children traumatized.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the absurdity of “symptoms:”

  “Would you say that it would be difficult to find a child who this list didn’t apply to after a certain point?”
  "Yes, yes." – (24:43–24:50)

• On the processes of suggestive interviewing:

  "I took a black marker and I crossed out everything that the interviewer said so that I only had what the child said ... page after page of the child saying, okay, yeah, yes, all right, yeah, that happened." – Mary DeYoung (27:39-27:56)

• On why stories of SRA are so captivating:

  “Basically, it is a morality tale ... it’s evil going after innocence... banished, confronted by, resolved by, destroyed by heroic rescuers. And so you have that triangle of perpetrator, victim, and rescuer that is really heightened in these accounts and ultimately becomes a morality tale about good triumphing over evil." – Mary DeYoung (34:16–34:59)

• On the episode's ultimate lesson:

  "Parents involved in the McMartin case formed an advocacy organization called Believe the Children. And that phrase became an unofficial slogan of the Satanic Panic as a whole. But what it seemed to really mean ... was believe the children when they tell us what we want to hear." – Sarah Marshall (42:25–42:44)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Trigger Warning: 00:39
• Dr. Mary DeYoung’s background: 01:10–01:19
• McMartin’s first unusual request for expert testimony: 02:02–03:35
• Sarah explains McMartin as ‘gallon of gasoline’ for the panic: 04:12–06:07
• Recap of McMartin trial and its snowballing hysteria: 06:33–09:57
• DeYoung on dawning anxieties about child abuse: 13:24–16:46
• Defining “moral panic” and “moral entrepreneurs”: 16:46–18:39
• Spread of ‘expertise’ and role of training conferences: 18:52–22:55
• Reading the SRA “symptoms” list: 23:07–24:43
• Dissecting flawed interviewing tactics: 27:04–29:41
• Motivations for panic & professional rewards: 30:52–33:22
• Cultural/political resonance: Reagan’s bear ad: 34:59–35:58
• Distraction from real risks & criticism of legal system: 36:18–38:55
• Positive but costly changes from the panic: 39:05–40:30
• McMartin trial outcome & legacy: 40:30–42:25
• Sarah Marshall’s closing analysis: 42:25–46:05

Conclusion

This episode exposes how a feverish combination of fear, authority, and cultural storytelling allowed the Satanic Panic to transform everyday social and legal institutions into theaters of suspicion and accusation. The voices of “experts” and the media enflamed anxieties, while the system's vulnerabilities left both children and adults unprotected from real harm. While the panic highlighted issues in childcare and interviewing techniques, it did so at immense human and societal cost, and left behind hard lessons that are often ignored.

Selected Quotes:

• "If urban legends were the kindling of the satanic panic and the book Michelle Remembers was the matches, then the McMartin trial was the gallon of gasoline poured over the fire." – Sarah Marshall (04:50)
• "A threat to your children or yourself will always look like the most evil thing you can conceive of. And it always leaves clear, incontrovertible, tangible evidence that you can uncover if you know what you’re looking for. Convict the Satanists, save the children." – Sarah Marshall (45:23)

For deeper insight, listen to the full episode of The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall, available on CBC Podcasts.