The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall

Episode 7: Four Lesbians and a Baby

Date: December 1, 2025 | Podcast by CBC | Host: Sarah Marshall

Episode Overview

This episode of "The Devil You Know" examines the devastating consequences of the Satanic Panic on four young queer women in 1990s San Antonio, Texas—Anna Vasquez, Liz Ramirez, Cassie Rivera, and Kristi Mayhugh—collectively known as the San Antonio Four. Their story encapsulates how homophobia, family values politics, and lingering satanic panic hysteria combined to upend their lives, resulting in wrongful convictions and years in prison for crimes that never happened. Host Sarah Marshall returns to the intersection of anti-LGBTQ panic and the myth of satanic ritual abuse to dissect how the most outlandish fears can, over time, be woven into the fabric of mainstream reality—with catastrophic consequences for the marginalized.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to Anna Vasquez and the Found Family

• Anna’s Aspirations and Upbringing (00:30–01:18)
  • Anna grew up in a hardworking, single-parent household, dreaming of becoming a nurse to help others.
• Love, Friendship, and Safety in Queer Community (01:33–03:07)
  • Anna meets Cassie Rivera, and quickly forms a close-knit friend group with Cassie, Liz Ramirez, and Kristi Mayhugh—all lesbians in a conservative city.
  • Their group grows even closer with Liz's pregnancy: "So, you know, baby Hector was like our baby. Four lesbian women that want to raise this baby." (Anna Vasquez, 03:22)

2. Culture Wars of the 80s and 90s: Family Values and the Satanic Panic

• Backlash Against Queer Visibility (04:29–11:04)
  • The episode traces the shift in public rhetoric—from explicit claims equating queerness with child predation and satanic ritual to more coded accusations embedded in "family values" politics.
  • Archival audio of Anita Bryant (07:45–08:58) illustrates early anti-gay activism: "Homosexuals cannot reproduce biologically, but they have to reproduce by recruiting our children." (Bryant, 08:49)
  • The rise of the Christian Right and the AIDS crisis further stigmatize queer people.
  • Parallels are drawn between the anti-LGBTQ panic and the mechanisms of the Satanic Panic: "They're out there actively recruiting vulnerable teens… they're preying on your children." (Sarah Marshall, 11:04)

3. Love and Closeted Existence in 1990s San Antonio

• Closeted Lives and Family Rejection (14:18–19:28)
  • Anna and Liz discuss navigating conservative, often homophobic, families.
  • Liz describes coming out and being sent out of her home at 15: "My mom gave me my emancipation papers when I was 15 and so I've kind of been on my own ever since." (Liz Ramirez, 17:38)
  • Their apartments become essential safe havens for queer friendship and love.

4. The Catalyst: False Accusations and the Role of Javier

• Javier’s Role and the Allegations (21:43–23:39)
  • Liz’s brother-in-law, Javier, asks if his daughters (Liz's nieces) can stay with Liz. After, he accuses Liz and her friends of horrific sexual abuse against the girls.
  • The accusations quickly spiral into lurid, implausible claims, e.g. forced nudity, drugging, and threats of violence—all without evidence.

5. Investigation, Prosecution, and the Role of Homophobia and Junk Science

• Coercive Investigations and Homophobic Bias (23:10–31:38)
  • Liz and the group cooperate with police, certain their innocence will save them.
  • Prosecution casts Liz as the ringleader and deploys inflammatory rhetoric:
    • "The evidence is going to show that young woman over there held a nine year old girl up as a sacrificial lamb to her friends…. We’re going to ask you to believe a nine year old little girl who was sacrificed on the altar of lust." (Opening Statement Read by Anna Vasquez, 26:46–26:59)
  • Their sexuality is wielded against them throughout, often more than any evidence.
  • Dr. Nancy Kellogg, a pediatrician, testifies the alleged abuse may be “satanic related” (31:00), and her sole “proof”—a scar—is later debunked as normal anatomical variation.
• Quote: "It feels like what the state was getting at was not that the women were child abusers and gay, but that they were child abusers because they were gay." (Sarah Marshall, 29:33)

6. Trials, Conviction, and Shattered Lives

• Conviction and Devastation (36:35–39:27)
  • Liz is found guilty, sentenced to over 37 years:
    • “I remember when they said that the jury had found me guilty and I had to stand up and they were taking me to the back. I remember hearing my mom was like, no. Like she screamed…. as soon as they shut the door behind me… I fainted.” (Liz Ramirez, 36:41)
  • Anna, Kristi, and Cassie are each sentenced to 15 years on similar charges.

7. Incarceration, Guilt, and Fighting for Justice

• Struggling to Prove Innocence (40:02–41:45)
  • The women endure prison, haunted by feelings of guilt and injustice.
  • Liz, in particular, shoulders enormous blame: “I felt guilty because… their lives were taken away because of, you know, my brother in law and my nieces…” (Liz Ramirez, 40:02)
• Emerging Hope: Recantations and Documentary Interest (41:45–43:34)
  • Documentary filmmaker Deborah Eskenazi takes up the case.
  • On camera, Stephanie (one niece) recants and asserts nothing happened:
    • "And we told them nothing happened. Nothing happened. Nothing happened. They didn't buy it." (Stephanie, 41:28–41:34)

8. Legal Breakthroughs: The Junk Science Writ and Exoneration

• Scientific Reckoning and the Fight to Reverse the Convictions (43:34–47:10)
  • The Texas “junk science" law opens a path to challenge convictions based on faulty forensic evidence.
  • Dr. Kellogg reverses her position; new research shows the “scar” means nothing.
  • The Innocence Project aids their case; Anna is paroled (and kept on the sex offender registry); the other three are released on bail (2013).
  • Memorable moment:
    • "We saw two girls kissing [after prison]. We were, like, all freaking out because, you know, they didn't do that… Before we went into prison." (Liz Ramirez, 45:39)
• Full Exoneration and Emotional Release (47:10–47:48)
  • In 2016, all four are fully exonerated. Liz describes the anticlimactic, text-message notification; hugs her adult son for the first time in years.

9. Legacy, Reflection, and the Persistent Danger of Moral Panic

• Personal Growth from Tragedy (48:37)
  • Anna reflects: “I feel like it made me into the person I am today. And that is, you know, stronger, more vocal, just wanting to help others. I have more empathy, I have more compassion, I am more transparent....” (Anna Vasquez, 48:37)
• The Satanic Panic’s Enduring Legacy (49:32–end)
  • Marshall argues the anti-LGBTQ panic has resurfaced in new guises—again targeting queer people as threats to children, policing family boundaries, and writing new laws to punish “crimes” of existence and care.
  • Closing insight: "It's a panic that puts real children in danger in order to protect imaginary ones…. The devil you know." (Sarah Marshall, 49:32)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the discriminatory fusion of queerness and satanic panic:
  “It feels like what the state was getting at was not that the women were child abusers and gay, but that they were child abusers because they were gay.”
  — Sarah Marshall (29:33)

• On courtroom trauma:
  "I remember when they said that the jury had found me guilty and I had to stand up and they were taking me to the back. I remember hearing my mom was like, no. Like she screamed…. as soon as they shut the door behind me, taking me to the back, I fainted."
  — Liz Ramirez (36:41)

• On personal transformation through adversity:
  “I feel like it made me into the person I am today. And that is, you know, stronger, more vocal, just wanting to help others… Just speaking from my own experience, you know, I really was living a lie for the majority of my life up into my conviction.”
  — Anna Vasquez (48:37)

• On post-exoneration freedom:
  "We saw two girls kissing. We were, like, all freaking out because, you know, they didn't do that when we were… Before we went into prison."
  — Liz Ramirez (45:39)

Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:30 – Anna's background; forming chosen family
• 03:22 – Liz's pregnancy: “Four lesbians and a baby”
• 07:45 – Anita Bryant’s anti-gay rhetoric, family values politics
• 14:18 – Growing up closeted, family rejection
• 18:01–21:47 – Found family becomes a haven; pregnancy news
• 23:10–26:46 – False allegations and investigation
• 26:46 – Salacious prosecution rhetoric at trial
• 31:00 – “Satanic related” junk science enters the case
• 36:41 – Verdict and severe sentences
• 41:45 – The recantation; documentary involvement
• 43:34 – Impact of junk science law; Innocence Project onboard
• 47:10 – Exoneration at last
• 48:37–end – Legacy, reflection, and warning about ongoing panics

Conclusion

Episode 7 lays bare how prejudice, panic, and junk science combined to destroy the lives of four innocent young queer women—whose only “crime” was building their own family. The episode not only documents their ordeal and ultimate exoneration, but warns that the forces underlying the Satanic Panic—fear and hatred of the “other”—are alive and well, merely adopting new faces as society changes. Sarah Marshall’s empathetic narration and the women’s firsthand accounts offer both a cautionary tale and a testament to survival, solidarity, and truth.