Podcast Summary

The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall

Episode: One More Helping, for Good Measure: Satan (Taylor’s Version)
Date: December 13, 2025
Guest: Yvonne Eden, Assistant Professor, University of Kentucky

Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, host Sarah Marshall explores the fascinating overlaps between conspiracy culture and pop fandoms. Through a deep conversation with Yvonne Eden, an academic specializing in knowledge production within fringe conspiratorial cultures, the episode focuses especially on the “Gaylor” fandom—fans who theorize about Taylor Swift’s potential queerness. Marshall and Eden trace parallels between conspiracy theory communities of the past (like JFK assassination researchers) and modern online fandoms, examining how such subcultures can offer not just connection but also an avenue for self-exploration, especially for queer people. The episode is lively and reflective, placing the sometimes-maligned world of fan theorists in a more nuanced, sometimes even affirming light.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining Conspiratorial Knowledge Cultures

• What is a conspiracy? Yvonne introduces philosopher Matthew Dentith's framework:
  • Requires multiple agents, secrecy, and a goal.
  • “A conspiracy theory is … any kind of speculation theory, evidence, statement that alleges that these activities are taking place, that these conditions are being met.” (Yvonne Eden, 03:45)
• Populist Expertise & Folk Sociology
  • Conspiracy theorist communities are misunderstood as anti-evidence; rather, they build “alternative” knowledge systems, developing rigorous “mountains of evidence” and defining themselves in opposition to mainstream narratives.

Historical Context: Women and Early Conspiracy Cultures

• JFK Assassination Researchers
  • Early archival work done by women collecting news clippings, notes, and observations leading to shared networks. (06:07–07:06)
• Parallels with Fan Cultures
  • Early Star Trek’s survival linked to grassroots efforts of women fans; female engagement often dismissed as less legitimate than male “fan” obsession.

Gender, Fandom, and the Fangirl Stereotype

• Feminization and Marginalization of Fandom
  • Fan cultures tied to women (e.g., “fangirls”) are often trivialized, driven by emotion, and dismissed as “shrill” or “annoying,” whereas male-dominated conspiracy spaces are seen as serious. (08:53–09:20)

Contemporary Online Knowledge Cultures: QAnon, Larry, Gaylor

• QAnon’s “Bakers” and Collaborative Decoding
  • “People who are doing this decoding are known as bakers … putting them together using different kinds of techniques, including numerology … bring the bread back to the community.” (Yvonne Eden, 10:54)
• Larry Shipping
  • Larry = Louis Tomlinson + Harry Styles.
  • Served as a “gateway” fandom to Gaylor for some, with significant overlaps in narrative construction and community splintering. (12:00–14:21)
• Gaylor: Fandom, Conspiracy, and Community
  • Gaylor functions as a conspiracy theory, fandom, and community—building knowledge against “mainstream Swifties,” fostering intense bonds, and even micro-theories like “Zaylor” (Swift as nonbinary).
  • “They’ve learned so much about queer history through gaylor, they’ve learned a lot about themselves and their identities.” (Yvonne Eden, 14:42)

The “Long Gaylor Decade”: Major Events and Lore

• Key Moments and Muses
  • Early theorizing centered around Swift’s friendship with Diana Agron (Glee), then Karlie Kloss—photos, rumored “kissgate,” and lyric triangulation were all pivotal moments. (16:50–19:14)
  • Taylor’s active Tumblr presence fostered a sense of direct, if mysterious, communication with fans.

Emotional Resonance and Subcultural Fulfillment

• Benefits of Gaylor Participation
  • Primary: Connection and validation within a queer community, especially for isolated youth.
  • Pathway to learning queer history; analyzing Swift’s lyrics about secrecy, longing, and relationships as potential cues. (20:20–22:11)
  • “Folk literary criticism”:
    • Members specialize in lyrics, outfits, music video analysis—echoing academic literary and cultural studies.

Why Does Taylor Swift “Feel So Gay”?

• Subtext, Sapphic Longing, and Fan-Produced Meaning
  • Resonance of lyrics like “I don’t want you like a best friend” is deeply queer-coded for many listeners.
  • “There’s a lot of value to feeling as though something is sapphic that we often don’t admit to.” (Yvonne Eden, 24:35)
  • Even if never confirmed, these feelings become powerful sources of validation and solidarity.

Conspiracy Theories: Desire vs. Fear

• Utopian vs. Dystopian Imagination
  • Gaylor is rooted in desire, longing, and utopian hope (“the world as it could be”), versus QAnon and Satanic Panic as expressions of societal fear and anxiety (“the world we fear”). (33:53–35:26)
  • “For Gaylor, it’s desire, it’s longing, and that’s baked into queerness in general … sometimes conspiracy theories can come out of emotions like desire, emotions like love, also from loneliness, also from wanting to belong.” (Yvonne Eden, 33:53)

Ethical Boundaries: Fandoms, Power, and Vulnerability

• Harmlessness and Harm
  • It’s less damaging to speculate about a powerful celebrity’s sexuality than to target individuals or the vulnerable (e.g., transphobic “conspiracy” about non-celebrities).
  • “Trans people experience a kind of vulnerability in the world that cis gay people don’t … we need to take a step back before piling on to somebody just because we’re bored.” (36:15)

Cultural Reflections: Echoes of Satanic Panic

• Queerness and the Satanic Imaginary
  • Connections between enduring right-wing conspiracy tropes (Satanism, perversion) and suspicion about visible, successful women and queerness.
  • “Some people attribute Taylor Swift’s success to her being a Satanist and a Satan worshiper.” (38:39)

“Getting Gaylor-pilled”: Academics and Participation

• Personal Testimonies
  • Eden shares the moment she was “converted” to the Gaylor reading: listening to “Dress” and “Dancing with Our Hands Tied,” and later, being swayed by online evidence (e.g., Christian Siriano’s rainbow dress TikTok).
  • “It was really interesting … I feel this in my body, as someone who has felt this way before.” (39:56–41:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On What Makes a Conspiracy Theory
  • “Anything from thinking your significant other is planning a surprise party for you to thinking there’s one world government is a conspiracy theory. Right? It’s a highly flexible definition.” (Yvonne Eden, 04:21)
• About Mainstream vs. Marginalized Knowledge
  • “There needs to be a mainstream against which they define themselves and against which they’re developing and scaffolding their own mountains of evidence.” (Yvonne Eden, 05:01)
• About Fangirls and Gender
  • “The fan girl is driven entirely by emotion, by desire … she’s annoying, she’s shrill.” (Yvonne Eden, 08:53)
• On “Folk Literary Criticism”
  • “They’re creating their own little sort of insular knowledge community … in my work I call this folk literary criticism.” (Yvonne Eden, 22:11)
• On the Emotional Resonance of Lyrics
  • “I don’t want you like a best friend to me is so sapphic…” (Yvonne Eden, 25:27)
• On Utopian Desire in Queer Conspiracies
  • “For Gaylor, it’s desire, it’s longing, and that’s baked into queerness in general.” (Yvonne Eden, 33:53)
  • “Queerness is about desiring another person you’re not supposed to … desiring to see yourself reflected in other people and in culture in some way.”

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:24] – Defining conspiratorial knowledge cultures
• [06:07] – Female researchers and the JFK assassination
• [08:29] – Gender, fangirls, and authenticity in fan culture
• [10:21] – Modern online conspiracy cultures: QAnon and comparative examples
• [12:00] – The Larry (One Direction) conspiracy/fandom and connections to Gaylor
• [14:42] – Gaylor as conspiracy, community, and fandom
• [16:50] – Major moments and timelines in Gaylor lore
• [20:20] – What fans get out of the Gaylor community
• [22:11] – “Folk literary criticism” within the fandom
• [24:35] – On why Taylor Swift “feels so gay”
• [33:53] – Gaylor as utopian longing versus right-wing conspiracy fear
• [36:15] – Dangers of conspiratorial theorizing about non-celebrities and trans people
• [38:39] – Satanic Panic, Taylor Swift, and the queer/Satanist slur
• [39:56] – Eden’s personal “Gaylor-pilled” moment

Concluding Thoughts

This episode provides a rich exploration of how conspiracy culture is not uniformly harmful or pathological: when filtered through queerness and fandom, it becomes a space for collective imagining, self-discovery, and even love. Gaylorism, in particular, stands as a testament to the power of community, the search for meaning, and the endless yearning baked into queer experience—and pop music itself. As Yvonne Eden says, “Sometimes conspiracy theories can come out of emotions like desire, emotions like love, also from loneliness, also from wanting to belong.” (35:26)

The episode, through its thoughtful and joyful tone, demonstrates how the communities we build around our questions—even the wild, unresolved ones—can be both a refuge and a site of transformation.