Body Language Expert: This Small Mistake Makes People Dislike You! This Is The Real Reason You're Still Single! When You Do This You Look Like A Loser Sorry But You Do!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

Episode Title:
Body Language Expert: This Small Mistake Makes People Dislike You! This Is The Real Reason You're Still Single! When You Do This You Look Like A Loser Sorry But You Do!

Release Date:
April 10, 2025

Host:
Steven Bartlett

Guest:
Vanessa Van Edwards – Renowned body language expert and author who has empowered over 400,000 students to decode human behavior for better personal and professional relationships.

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Diary Of A CEO, Steven Bartlett engages in a profound conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards, a leading authority on body language and human behavior. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of nonverbal communication, first impressions, and the subtle cues that influence our relationships and professional interactions.

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Can We Change Who We Are?

[00:57] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"They've actually researched this and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium or low."

Vanessa introduces the concept of the Big Five personality traits—Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism (OCEAN)—and discusses their heritability and potential for change. She emphasizes that while genetics play a significant role, there's ample room (30-40%) for personal development and behavioral adjustment.

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The Power of Communication

[03:12] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes."

Vanessa underscores the transformative power of effective communication. Whether it's fostering meaningful relationships, advancing in one's career, or building a supportive network, mastering communication skills is pivotal.

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Mastering First Impressions

[08:50] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"We can work on it. But nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person."

The conversation pivots to the significance of first impressions. Vanessa reveals that people form judgments within the first few seconds of meeting someone, with body language playing a critical role. She highlights common mistakes, such as checking one's phone or adopting a closed posture, which can inadvertently signal disengagement or disinterest.

Notable Quote:
Vanessa Van Edwards (09:57):
"Every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser."

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Decoding Profile Pictures

[11:21] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"Different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions, which means we are in control of our first impressions."

Vanessa discusses the impact of profile pictures on platforms like LinkedIn and dating apps. She explains how subtle changes in posture, facial expressions, and accessories can drastically alter perceptions. For instance, holding hands in a photo can convey warmth, while a serious expression paired with professional attire exudes competence.

Example Analysis:

• Woman with Head Tilt and Glasses (13:07):
  Warm and nurturing vibes combined with competence indicators like a watch and glasses.

• Man with Genuine Smile (14:00):
  Appears warm and approachable, though possibly too warm for highly professional settings.

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Navigating Conversations and Avoiding Dead Ends

[22:52] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"Break the script. So, like, I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the Script."

Vanessa provides practical advice on steering conversations away from mundane topics. She encourages listeners to adopt unique openers and share personal anecdotes to foster deeper connections, rather than relying on clichéd questions like "How are you?"

Notable Strategies:

• Unique Openers: Instead of "Hi, how are you?", try "What's been good for you lately?"
• Sharing Anecdotes: Offer personal stories to make conversations more engaging and memorable.

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The Role of Personality Traits in Relationships and Professional Settings

[96:05] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes."

Vanessa elaborates on how different personality traits influence both personal relationships and workplace dynamics. She explains the interplay between the Big Five traits and outlines the importance of recognizing and adapting to varying personalities for harmonious interactions.

Key Points:

• Openness: High openness individuals are curious and embrace new experiences, beneficial for roles requiring creativity and adaptability.
• Conscientiousness: Highly conscientious people excel in structured environments and are reliable, essential for leadership and detail-oriented positions.
• Extraversion: Extroverts thrive in social settings, making them effective in networking and team-based roles.
• Agreeableness: Highly agreeable individuals are cooperative and empathetic, valuable for collaborative tasks but may struggle with assertiveness.
• Neuroticism: Individuals with high neuroticism may experience higher levels of stress and anxiety, impacting their interpersonal relationships and professional performance.

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Recognizing and Addressing Micro Expressions

[86:08] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"When you feel that anywhere on a date with someone you're hiring on a team, you should trust that feeling, because it is something that we cannot. We have not explained with science yet."

Vanessa introduces the concept of micro expressions—subtle, involuntary facial expressions that reveal genuine emotions. She categorizes seven universal micro expressions: Fear, Disgust, Anger, Happiness, Sadness, Surprise, and Contempt. Understanding these can enhance one's ability to read others' true feelings and respond appropriately.

Notable Insights:

• Fear: Indicates uncertainty or a threat; look for wide eyes and raised eyebrows.
• Disgust: Signals aversion; characterized by a crinkled nose and upper lip raise.
• Anger: Conveys frustration or antagonism; manifested through tightened lips and stern expressions.
• Happiness: Genuine happiness engages the upper cheek muscles, distinguishing it from a forced smile.
• Sadness: The most contagious expression, evident through drooping eyelids and downward mouth movements.
• Contempt: A sign of superiority or disdain; often seen as a smirk or one-sided mouth raise.

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Enhancing Leadership Through Communication

[62:25] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"Master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the person. They're making people feel super full of dopamine."

Vanessa discusses how effective leaders utilize communication to foster trust, collaboration, and a positive work environment. By understanding and applying body language cues, leaders can enhance their charisma and influence.

Strategies for Leaders:

• Vocal Variety: Use different tones and pitches to maintain engagement.
• Hand Gestures: Complement verbal communication with appropriate gestures.
• Eye Contact: Maintain sufficient eye contact to build rapport without staring.

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Overcoming the "Busyness Trap" in Personal Connections

[50:22] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"We're so busy with our self-care rituals and workouts and our work that we are missing opportunities for connection."

The conversation shifts to the societal emphasis on busyness, which often impedes meaningful interpersonal connections. Vanessa argues that prioritizing relationships over rigid routines can lead to greater happiness and longevity.

Key Takeaways:

• Prioritize Connections: Allocate time for relationships amidst busy schedules.
• Flexible Routines: Incorporate social interactions into daily habits.
• Mindful Engagement: Be present and attentive in interactions to foster deeper bonds.

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Practical Challenges for Personal Growth

[53:08] Vanessa Van Edwards:
"How you're wired. You're not set up right to be getting energy from people."

Vanessa presents actionable challenges to help individuals improve their social skills and reduce reliance on digital interactions for dopamine boosts.

Challenges:

1. No Mirror Challenge: Avoid looking in the mirror for 30 days to boost self-confidence and foster genuine relationships.
2. Social Media Blackout: Limit or eliminate social media usage to increase in-person interactions and derive dopamine from real-life connections.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of how body language and communication skills profoundly impact our personal and professional lives. Vanessa Van Edwards provides invaluable insights and practical strategies to decode and enhance nonverbal cues, foster meaningful connections, and develop effective leadership qualities. By understanding and applying these principles, listeners can navigate social interactions with greater confidence and authenticity, ultimately enriching their relationships and achieving greater success.

Final Thoughts:
Steven Bartlett and Vanessa Van Edwards conclude with a reflection on the importance of serving others and continuously improving one's ability to communicate effectively. Vanessa emphasizes the profound impact of genuine interactions and the necessity of prioritizing relationships for a fulfilling life.

Closing Quote:
Steven Bartlett:
"The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with?"

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Connect with Vanessa Van Edwards:

• Instagram: @vanessavandedwards
• LinkedIn: Vanessa Van Edwards
• New Book: Check it out here

If you enjoyed this summary, please follow the podcast to stay updated with more insightful episodes!

Transcript

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A lot of people do this on dates and it drives me crazy. Look, watch this.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Vanessa, yesterday you and my team did some matchmaking.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay, so we had the very first date and I pre coached a gentleman and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece and I was shocked by these dates. Please don't do that. This is why we're having a baby crisis. I got angry after this date.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Why?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. She was physically attracted to him. And I asked her, would you like to go out with him again? And she said to me, really? Yeah. Yeah. And now we are missing opportunities for connection, the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior, decoding universal body language and sharing science backed secrets for better dates, smoother conversations, and bigger career wins.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back. The first place I want to start is can we change who we are?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They've actually researched this and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium or low. And they're somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable. For example, neuroticism, which is how you worry. And high neurotics like me produce less serotonin more slowly. Serotonin makes us feel calm and so like I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room. And that's genetic. But there is 30 to 40% potential for change. You want a better relationship, you want a raise, you want a promotion. If you want more friends, the good news is anyone can learn these cues and techniques, such as decoding the seven universal micro expressions we all do unconsciously how to spot a liar, the number one mistake, make people making a first impression, and how to become a master communicator. Can I teach them to you?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Geez.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Let's start with.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening to this, I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make this show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The the show gets bigger, which means we can expand the Production. Bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thank you for having me back.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How you been?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. Your folks are so kind. Can I just say, since the last interview, the incredible people have reached out and just been supportive and kind. They ask amazing questions, and so I'm just so grateful. So I've been really good.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Just in case anybody doesn't know who you are and what you do, you're gonna have to take me back. What is it you do and who are you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm a recovering awkward person, and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate. I have books and courses, and I love helping very, very smart people share.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Their ideas better communicate online and in person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, all of it. All of it. Slack, text, email, online, in person, on the phone, we can talk about vocal power, video power. You are communicating all the time, even if you don't realize it. And that's the hidden opportunity.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How important is it? Like, how pivotal is it and can it be for someone's life if they master the skill of communication, first impressions, and all the things that you educate us on so articulately, it will get.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You everything you want. You want a better relationship, you want a soulmate, you want a raise, you want a promotion, you want a business, you want more friends, you want a support system. It will even get you longevity. That's how strong I feel about it. If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But is it not genetic? You know, like, are we set in our ways?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Look, there are certain people born out the womb. Charismatic. Great hand gestures, great eyebrows. Right out the womb. There are those very unique people. But most, most of us learn charisma. Most really, really charismatic leaders, they've learned, ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile. Oh, this vocal power. People pay attention and lean in and they've accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma. And the good news is, I think anyone can learn it. Anyone. No matter how awkward you are, believe me, I'm proof you can learn it. You're proof I'm a recovering awkward person. I was so awkward. I had a really hard time communicating with people. I was not well liked. I was. Had very few friends. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it. I promise.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's almost impossible to believe that you are an awkward person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I promise. You know, also, awkwardness dresses up in different ways, right? So I think most people, when they think of awkward, they think of that stereotypical, robotic, unreadable, saying weird things. That was not my brand of awkward. My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn't telling funny stories that were not funny. Talking too much. Shocker, right? It was saying the wrong things and over communicating. I also had that Labrador energy, you know, like that golden retriever energy where I'm like, do you know what I mean?

[Stephen Bartlett]

She just stuck her tongue out for me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm like super into people. And that was awkward. Cause people would be like, back up. It's okay. And that was awkward because it created. I was so overeager. I so wanted people to like me that I feel like I was leaning into everyone all the time. And that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So when you see many people write into the show or speak to me in the street, and it's so surprising that the thing. Even if they live in these densely populated cities, the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is I don't know how to make a friend. And it's funny. Cause sometimes they say, like to me in a gym, and it's like there's 300 people surrounding us right now and not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, but a lot of us, I think, have casual friends. We have like, you know, acquaintances, people. They know what we do, but then we don't know how to level up. Like, I believe that everyone should have core friendship values. Mine are for me personally, respect, meaning they don't show up late. They respect my time. Self honesty. I actually like honesty, but I prefer self honesty in a friend. I had friendships that didn't work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things. And I am not a liar. So I would be like, but he's terrible to you. And they'd be like, what? No, he's not. Self deception doesn't work for me. That's a core friendship value. Cannot do it. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Self honesty.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Self honesty specifically. And the last one is depth. So once I started going deep, I realized I need that. I cannot have a surface level friend. Like, I want to know, how is your marriage, but how is it really? Like, I want to go really, really deep. And if I sense that there's any kind of hesitation there, we're not going to be friends. So I think it's important to think about. Yes. Hobbies, great. Like, you want to do activities with these people, but what are your core friendship values?

[Stephen Bartlett]

And how do I figure out what my core friendship values are?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends. Okay. Okay.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Think about friendships that didn't work out, that had a lot of potential, but, like, you just. They fizzled. You never quite had a good time with them, or friends that you get together with them all the time, but they still wouldn't be a best friend. Why?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, what is blocking what is missing there? And it could be on either side. Right. It's, like, not all just up to them. So think about what drives you crazy, and then, like, what makes you feel healed, what makes you feel good, what makes you feel calm, what makes you feel like yourself?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Personal responsibility is a big one for me, I think.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Ooh, give me an example of that.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Just, like, it's a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are in control of your outcomes. Because then it's like, almost the antithesis of victimhood.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Totally.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And you don't want to be dealing with a friend who's chronically engaged in, like, victimhood, you know?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So that was. You want heroes?

[Stephen Bartlett]

And how many people have you taught this skill of better communication and better connections to in the last decade?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. Well, at least 400,000 students who I can count, but millions more. Millions.

[Stephen Bartlett]

400,000 students, yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it's actually probably way more than that, but that's just what we can count.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And what is, like, the essence of what they're trying to get? Because obviously a skill is a path to something that they want. What is the thing that they want?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They want to be master communicators.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Why?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They want to be able to ask for what they want and get it. If you are a master communicator, no matter what you want, again, if it's a partner or a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Can you make me a master communicator?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

For sure.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Let's do it, then.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Let's do it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

The first place I want to start is with first impressions and how one can make a great first impression. Because first impressions are like, I make them all day, every day. When I meet people on the podcast, in business, in the street, at the gym, someone might listen to the show. They come up to me. So I'm constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression. Because from the work that I've read of yours, they really matter, right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They really matter. They really matter. How much. Our first impressions are actually very accurate. They find 76% accurate with our personality traits. In other words, people can accurately guess after a first impression how extroverted you are, how agreeable, how neurotic. Actually, neurotic is the hardest one to guess. We can hide that really well. Openness and conscientiousness. We're pretty good at guessing that. Like, I could guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction, which means they're lasting. So if you've made a bad first impression, it's hard to recover. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. We can work on it. But nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person. So it's very important that we don't throw them away. And this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression. They do it like this. Oh, hi. Nice to meet you. Looking down at their phone or their iPad or their computer or their notepad or their book. When we are looking down, it looks very much like the universal defeat posture. Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest. We usually have our very little space between our shoulders and our earlobes. We have our arms close to our sides. This. Yeah. Don't you feel kind of horrible? You look horrible.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Oh, thank you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

When you check your phone, Every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser. And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning. So in a first impression, you're waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview. You're waiting for your date for possibly your perfect person. And what are you doing? Checking your phone.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So I'm sat there looking like a loser.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. That first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you. And this is another mistake introverts make. They think their first impression happens starts the moment they start talking. No, your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you. That's when they walk into a room, open the door, walk into a restaurant, or look at your profile picture. Profile pictures are even more important. They've found that people make a first impression of you within the first hundred milliseconds of looking at your profile picture. That's so fast, you barely even realize you saw a picture. But we are so attuned to look at someone's facial expressions. Their body posture, what's visible, our clothing, our ornaments. And what's fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions, which means we are in control of our first impressions. If different pictures of the same person. Like if you have five different pictures of yourself and you put them up all in different LinkedIn profiles, people are going to make different judgments of you, which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture, but also having the right body language when someone first sees you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Someone did a study on that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I think Sumin Vazir, I think did this study. Yeah, don't quote me, but I believe Simon Vazir does a lot on digital first impressions. And what's incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression. So, for example, I've played around with this on mine where I'll have my hand in my picture. Like, there's a big difference. If you were to see me like this with my face on my hand. It's called a face platter.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay. So for anyone that can't see you, you've got both of your hands out and your chin resting in the middle of it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it's called a face platter. Right. Think of like my face on a platter. For anyone who's listen, this is a very different impression than this. Like, same face, face platter, warm, almost feminine, kind of girly, versus this very professional, very competent. Just that one difference. So all these cues are changing, especially if you're first impression happening on dating profile apps, on LinkedIn, in your email, like a little picture in your email, your website. It is changing the way people treat you and think of you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay, so let me show you some.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Profile photos I would love to see.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And you tell me what they're giving.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, right.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay. What is this giving?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so she's leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand first. Immediately. A head tilt. Head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth. She's giving me nurturing vibes. Don't you want to tell her all your problems? Like, I would guess she's a therapist or a life coach. She has a watch on, which is a good ornament for competence. So she's probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst. Probably has a degree. She also wears glasses. We like women in glasses and makeup for very competent. That actually ups our competence factor, by the way. This is just the research, not my opinion. And she Has a sweater tied around her top and that's very conservative. So I would say warm and nurturing. Could be a grandmother, likely in a self help profession.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Correct.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So some cues there we can learn from is we want to balance out the friendliness, the warmth, the approachability with the take me seriously. So you take her seriously because of her watch and her glasses and her lack of a smile. Those are all cues of competence. We like that. We also like those cues of warmth, head tilt, hand on face and a soft smile. So in that way it's a perfect balance or blend.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about this guy? Profile photo.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so we are seeing a gentleman with no hands. So we see no hand gestures, just his face. He's also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward. You also see a genuine smile. The best thing about this picture is he's doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated. Upper zygomaticus. Terrible at saying that, but these muscles are activated. So very likable. Oh yeah, I like that. Good job.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I love this smile. So we love that authentic smile. So he's very warm and approachable. He's also making eye contact with the camera. Slight head tilt. I would actually say this is very warm, Almost too warm. If he is a doctor or a professor or someone who needs to be taken seriously, I don't know if I'd go to him with my problems. It's a lot of warmth for that photo. And by the way, I want to make this as helpful for folks at home. So think of your impression like a thermostat. You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues. So if you want to add warmth or trust or likeability, you can add a head tilt. You can show your hands. Movement is also one. So sometimes you'll see people who are like leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk. That's why all those photographers use wind. Yeah, it actually adds like this weird element of warmth. If you want to dial up competence power. If you want to be taken seriously, especially if you're in a career where you've been challenged or interrupted or not taken seriously or underestimated. You really want to dial up competence in your profile picture. Like the COVID of my books. I am not smiling and that is because I'm quite a smiley person and I want people to take me seriously. So I made a choice to not smile on my covers.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about this chap? This is a dating app. Profile photo.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Look. I love it. Okay. This guy has a cat around his neck, and you know what? I love it. Why? Because if you love cats, you're gonna love this guy. If you hate cats, you're gonna swipe. We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose, right? Like, I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat, because certain people are gonna love it. Certain people aren't gonna like it. He's gonna find his people. We're in Austin, Texas, so it would be weird if he, like, weren't in London or something like that.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Dee, what do you think?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I do not like sunglasses in photos at all. And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin, which is the chemical connection even through a lens. When you can't see someone's eyes, it puts a little barrier in our head of, like, I don't know. I don't know about this person that's chemically your body being like, I cannot see her eyes, so I'm a hard no on sunglasses. This is, like, she's very distant from me, even though she has a beautiful smile. I can't see the upper cheek muscles, and I can't see your eyes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Does that apply to real life, too? The sunglasses point. Like, does it disconnect us from people?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, I haven't seen research on that. I've only seen research on sunglasses in photos. So I'm gonna say in person, I think it's okay. But I will say, like, have you ever been with someone and they, like, take off their glasses to see you better? Has that ever happened to you?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It feels good.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah. Like, they can.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you want to show someone, I'm gonna really listen to you. Take off your glasses or roll up your sleeves. So there's also. We know this is a cue is like, let's get into it. I often see, like, leaders, when they're getting into the get into it part of their speech, they roll up their sleeves. Another one that I like is this one. Rubbing your hands together. Okay, so this is a universal get ready cue. If you are about to share something really, really good to your team, you want to go like this, guys, I got something good today. You would like it. You would like it if you were in a team meeting.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah. Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. It's a universal cue of warming up.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So going back then to first impressions. How do I make a really bad first impression?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A really bad first impression?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah. So we'll do the bad first, then we'll do the good. You said one of the worst Things one can do is to walk up on their phone, on a device, etc.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so bad is taking up as little space as possible.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. No space between our arms and our torso. No space between our shoulders and our earlobes. The second thing is hidden hands. So hands in pockets, hand to the table, hands not in shot. We like to see hands, especially right away. It makes us feel intentioned.

[C]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We like to know what's gonna happen. So I'm like, hi, good to see you. I put my hands. A lot of my hands are in my profile pictures. That's a bad one, is hidden hands. And the last one is avoidant gaze. We really do like to make eye contact in the first few seconds of meeting someone. It makes us feel like someone's avoiding that oxytocin. It gives us a chemical burst of trust. They even, you know, have you all do nose sprays full of oxytocin, and it immediately makes them share more, open more, connect more. Yeah. So we want direct eye contact, visible hands and a broad body.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I call it the triple threat, by the way.

[Stephen Bartlett]

The triple threat.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's the triple threat.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about when sat at a table like this? Because I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to people.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And I am. I've never said this before, but I'm always really quite conscious about my body language because I don't want to signal the wrong thing. But because I'm thinking about so many things at once, I'm, like, doing research while someone's talking. I'm reading my notes, I'm writing. Sometimes I'm jotting something down and I'm thinking about the next thing. I'm thinking about the edit. There's a lot going on in my head. I never want them to misconstrue it as, like, a reflection on them. So how would you recommend that I conduct myself, whether it's as a podcaster or in a meeting when you're with a client or whatever? To signal that I'm warm and competent and all the good stuff.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. So first, easiest one is you're always angled towards me. I'm so grateful that you don't have us angled at a V. So many podcasts I do are like that. And it is very hard to connect with someone when they're like that. So you're already laying the groundwork of being aligned in your office right now. If you work in an office, move your chairs so they're not at an angle towards you, that they're right at you. That's already gonna set you up for success, because I know we're on the same page. Even if you're looking at something else, then you want to think about 60% eye contact. It's very specific. In Western cultures, they find that the ideal, the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60 to 70%. Some East Asian cultures, it's less eye contact, so that's okay. But if you can hit that 60%, that's not 100%. Especially when I'm making an important point. Like you'll often be doing nose and you'll look up at me when I'm making an important point. That's all I need to know. I got this. Keep going. And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point. So you could be talking like this, explaining this, remembering something. But let me tell you, at the very end of my point, that's when it matters.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I think you actually do that pretty naturally. I don't know if you realize you're doing it, but if you're in a meeting or presenting or you're an interviewer, that's actually what matters more, is that at the end of your sentence, you're sealing it with that eye contact.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, because I look away. So I'm doing it now. I look away because I'm struggling with my ideas, trying to articulate them. And then once I've got it, I come back to you and make the point like that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And that actually is good. It shows me that you're processing. We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact. Yeah, we can't do it. And so actually it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40%. You're not looking at me when you're gathering that. Actually, leaders do that because they're showing I'm authentically coming up with the answer. It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact, because I would feel like it was scripted. That's one of the reasons why I think presenters make this problem. And whenever I watch Shark Tank or Dragon's Den, a big mistake they make is they're so rehearsed, they don't break eye contact. And it gives you sort of a robotic feeling. So if you're practicing a presentation, you actually want to have a little bit of ad lib in there. You want to be processing around because it shows you're authentically grabbing the information and that shows competence. Right. Highly competent people, they don't Need a script because they know their stuff so well, they can just grab it out for you. They can think on the spot. Low competent people are memorized. That is why, like, the TED talks that we like the best, the pictures we like the best, they're basically having a really smart conversation with you, and you like it. So I like that you're gathering away from me that you're thinking of a question. The worst interviews I have are where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so gestures, eye contact. It's okay to make only 60% eye contact. That's the triple threat. The other thing in a first impression that I really like is breaking the script. Right. I think in a first impression, it's okay to be like, hey, good morning. But when we do the how are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? And you get, like, that horrible, like, loop. I'm going to challenge everyone to try to break the script with how are you? So when someone asks, how are you? Don't say good. Don't say busy, but good. Try to answer with, like, a little bit of humor if you can. Now, I'm not funny, so we should take this advice with a grain of salt. You're welcome, but I'm not that funny. But there's a couple things you can do. So one is you can answer with a number. So, like, you laughed. I didn't even do it yet, and you already laughed. Right?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Seven.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Most people say seven. I was gonna say seven.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Oh, really?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. So if you're like. If someone's like, how are you? And you're like, 7 on the 10 scale. Right? Like, it just. It breaks the script a little bit. I also love when you say what you're wrestling with. So I might be, like, just been fighting my inbox all day, but a good 10 out of 10. Like, sometimes it's good to give, like, a little bit of context of, like, what you've been dealing with for the day. Or if you know that you look a mess, you can be, like, better on the inside than the outside.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Better on the inside than the outside. Okay, Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, something that just gets people thinking a little bit, it kind of breaks the script, and it makes for a very nice first impression.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So first impressions make sure the conversation doesn't hit a dead end, essentially.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And break the script.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, break the script.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Break the script. So, like, I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the Script. Right. Because then you're gonna make a way better first impression.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that also means not asking, how are you? But instead being like, what's good? So, like, when I start a conversation, like, anytime I try never to ask, how are you? I try to say, what's good? Anything good today? It's a very subtle, subtle change on that. And it makes people think for a second, in a good way. They're like, oh, yeah, what's good? And it totally changes the nature of the conversation.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I do this here sometimes. So when a guest comes in, the question that I always ask, pretty much everyone that sits down is like, what's front of mind for you at the moment? Is that a good one?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I like that one a lot. I would prefer.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay, fine.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What have you been looking forward to? Are you looking forward to anything in your life?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is that because it's positive?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it's juicing, excitement. So, like, our. I think our job, if you want to really be a master communicator, is you are gifting good chemicals. You know that phrase, like, leave people better than you found them?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I take that quite literally. I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the person. They're making people feel super full of dopamine. Dopamine is, like, very simplified. Excitement, motivation, energy. They're gifting testosterone. You feel capable, you feel smart. Wow. You're good at what you do. Right. And you leave feeling like. Like, I'm so good. This is for men and women. You're gifting serotonin. Calm, belonging. You got this. You can be yourself with me. I give you permission to be yourself. I love you for who you are. Like, I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me, like, they tell me everything about their lives, I think it's because I'm, like, trying to gift them serotonin. I want them to feel like they can be absolutely themselves, and I accept them for exactly who they are. So serotonin, dopamine, and testosterone, if we can gift those out, I call it, like the chemical cocktail. Like, that's the cocktail I want to give to everyone in my conversation. And that's what master communicators are doing.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And how would I give you all those things?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so you break the script by just waking me up. Right. Like, this is going to be different. Then you ask, what have you been looking forward to? Like, if you ask me what's been in front of mind, I'm going to probably give you a negative answer to be quite Honest with you. Do you usually get negative answers to that question?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Negative or neutral or. It's typically something work related. So they'll say, my book tour, I'm trying to get this published, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you're bored, aren't you?

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's somewhat interesting to me because I write it down and then I'll talk to them about it. But I mean, if it was a social conversation, it wouldn't be interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. And I would argue, like, you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer, even in this setting. So you're bored. They're bored. So one, if you're, like looking forward to anything, got any fun plans coming up? Those are all, like, gifting little bits of dopamine, then capitalizing on any moment that. I call it a me too moment. I have this theory, it's called thread theory. And it's this idea that in conversation we are throwing threads at each other. So, like, if we have a shared thing, I've thrown a thread, you get it and you pull it. It's like you're trying to get even more out of me. The more threads that there are between you and me, the more we like each other and the closer we get. Me too. Moments create serotonin. When I say I like X and you're like, what? I like X too. We're like, like chemically. And that makes me feel. Serotonin makes me feel calm, belonging. I can be myself. So anytime in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with or you feel like I have that too, you want to capitalize and be like, thread me too.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How do you stop it feeling like you're making it about yourself, though? Because if you said to me, you've got a cybertruck outside, if you walked in and said, oh, I've just bought a cybertruck, and I go, I've just bought a cybertruck.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so there's a big difference between how you said it and how I said it. Okay, So I say, I just got a cybertruck. Oh, yeah, Join the club.

[Stephen Bartlett]

That's what you want me to say?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I wouldn't say it like that, though. There is a difference here. Cause I'm British and British people are very like. We're very like.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You know what I mean?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're so demure.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is that what it is? Which is very. Oh, yeah, Join the club. Could you imagine?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I would have liked it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You would freak out. Now you're saying that you would like it. Cause it's so weird.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Not because I like weird people.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is there anything else in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions? And what I mean by that is really, like, how do I then cement and invest in that relationship so I can keep it?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Mm. Okay. So if you've made a good first impression, you are set up for success. It's great if you're making a second impression because you weren't sure how the last one went. Right. Or you want to kind of build on it further. Your best bet is to show them how much they were on your mind. Everyone's number one worry in this world is, did I leave an impression? Am I memorable? That's what we want to know. So the very first thing you want to assure them is, oh, I loved our last meeting. I've been looking so forward to this lunch. Right. So can you assure them that you're so happy to see them, talk to them, hear from them, Same thing on the phone. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you called. Like, that warmth of, you were right to call. You were right to text. You were right to show up. Right. Like, if someone texts me, of course. Like, not if I'm texting someone all day long, but if someone texts me and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you texted. I will literally say that I was just thinking of you. Right. Like, oh, I'm so glad you reached out. I always love our conversations. Like, that immediate. You're good here is serotonin. That's that belonging feeling of, like, you're already safe. You're letting someone be themselves right off the bat.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about online first impressions? Is there anything that I need to think about if I'm on. Cause so much of our lives runs on Zoom or Google Hangouts now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay, so first, can we talk about just, like, dating apps, first of all? Okay, so they've actually done research on this. You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just, hi. Hello, how are ya? So, like, howdy if you're in Texas. Even if you're not in Texas, howdy. Aloha. What's good? Anything that's not that high or hello is a little bit different. It's gonna make you stand out. So if you can.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Hey.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Nope. You're defeating the spirit of the study here. Okay. Okay, so, like, not a hey, not a hi, not a what's up? Not a how are ya?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But, like, can you have like a. Like a signature phrase or, like, bingo, I would take it. You would take it bingo. I'm in your inbox. They studied this and they found that there's so much noise. There's so much noise that if you can be the red apple. So this is a story when I was. I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger as how I made money. And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break. And usually it was all red apples or all green apples. And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple, every single camper had to have that red apple. But I would ask them, do you like the red apple better? And they'd be like, no, I just want that one because it's the only one. And I've never forgotten that. In that I think that really special people, master communicators, are the red apple. They're not oranges. They're still fitting in with everyone, but they're just like a little bit different. And that's, I think, how it should be both in business and also in romance is can you be a red apple where you're still the same? You're not like wacko crazy, but you're like a little different than everyone else. So like a bingo or a howdy or an aloha or a shalom or whatever it is. I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of peak effect. The peak effect is like you piqued someone's curiosity a little bit. And that, that really works. That's why marketing campaigns that are a little different, they always work better.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And what about then on zoom and other sort of business professional environments?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so in zoom and professional environments, please turn your camera on.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yep.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Please turn your camera on. This sounds obvious, but more and more people are turning their camera off, especially if you have back to back meetings. But if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds, it is a game changer for people's perception of you. So one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative. Here's how this happens. Can you see me? Can you hear me? Oh. Oh. Hi. A lot of zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they're in the middle of like, can you see me? Can you hear me? And they're fixing themselves and then they make a first impression. No, your first impression already happened. It happened the moment your camera turned on. Remember, your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you, not when you start talking. So your first impression is usually, hey, morning.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So you raised Your hand there.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I always. I always give a wave or a hi. I make sure my camera is at least 3ft away from my nose. Like, I literally have measuring tape to make sure I'm not too close. I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera. And then usually I have a question ready. And here's why. In person, it's so much easier to make conversations, especially around context or like, oh, you know how it was easy getting here. I loved your cybertruck. Very hard on zoom. And so what happens is you get on and you go, hi. Hi. Weather good where you are? It's like, it's so awkward. Be ready. Be ready with an anecdote or a question. I like an anecdote. So if you've done anything good, interesting, seen anything good or interesting, I want you to be ready to share it. It sounds like this. Hey. Morning. Oh, my gosh. I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin. Best breakfast taco in Austin. Have you ever had a breakfast taco? Whatever. But, like, I was ready to go with that anecdote. I think that that's how we should pre start all of our video calls is like some small anecdote or story. And that also helps in conversation. Like, I believe everyone should have a story toolbox. So in conversation, there are certain topics that will always come up. Weather, traffic, and where you're from. So here's my challenge. This is what master communicators do. Whenever those three topics come up, I want you to have one story about each of them. It could be a trivia, it could be a story, it could be a fact that you're ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting. When someone asks, where are you from? You should say, oh, I'm from Los Angeles. Interesting fact. Interesting story. That little interesting story. Like, someone the other day said to me, oh, I'm from this place in England, maybe Liverpool.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Liverpool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And he said, oh, it's where Banksy's from. And I was like, oh. And we had a whole conversation about Banksy. And I was like, that was it. He said where he was from, but instead of being Liverpool, I'd be like, cool. Never been there. He was like, liverpool? It's supposedly where Banksy's from. I was like, really? But don't we. Do we even know who Banksy is? And he's like, well, we don't know, but he could have been. In my high school, we had a whole fun conversation about Banksy. And I asked him afterwards. I was like, do you always share that comment? He's like, yeah, because it creates the most interesting conversation. So when you say where you're from, have an interesting fact or interesting story. I read a book about traffic, literally to have interesting stories about traffic. Like, for example, in Los Angeles, everyone says the 101, the 5, the 10. That's the only place in the world where we say that. So sometimes I'll even like, someone will be like, oh, traffic. And I'll be like, oh, so are you a the person? Do you say the. Then we get in a whole conversation about. So, like, I have little things that create a little bit of juice and I'm always rotating them out. So in your phone, create a note called story toolbox and have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It is the same stuff. It's like 80, 90% of the time, it's the same stuff. It's the same questions. How are you? Where are you? How's the weather? Traffic?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm constantly adding to that story toolbox and I'm rotating out my facts and trivia because I get bored.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What if you, like, stumble across the same person twice and you don't realize you've hit them with the same story? Cause if you. If we do.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But I don't talk to the same people again, I'm just joking.

[Stephen Bartlett]

If we did a couple of zoom calls and you kept coming on going, are you a the person? Or I'd go, wait a minute.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, no. If we were doing regular zoom calls, you would know that I'm probably gonna ask you what's good? And you'd probably be pre thinking about what's good in your life. Like, I have a friend who always asks, what are you learning? And whenever I go hang out with him, I make sure I'm learning something. Like, it actually preps me in a good way. So you would know me for certain questions and that would. I think my experience is when you're known for asking better questions, people actually come into the conversation more excited with better expectations to interact with you. So, like, be known for it. Like, fine, be known for the traffic trivia. Or like, worse comes to worse, someone says, oh, yeah, the, the thing we talked about that last time. And I'll be like, oh my gosh, yes. And then I forgot you're from Ohio. Great, I remember you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How important is the background on your zoom videos?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, pretty important. I also have a thing against, like, blurred out fake backgrounds. I don't like when people use A fake background. I think there was actually some Harvard Business research on this, but it was during COVID so it kind of changes, you know, the research. But as a human, we get very distracted by fake backgrounds. So please think twice. Blurring out your background or putting a fake background around you, like, you know, one of those backdrops, the eye, it's like a green screen. You know, when you see on a green screen, your eye is like, something is not right. People will perceive you as more inauthentic. I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you. Right. Like, you have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues in Captivate up there. Right. Like, my books, which I love. And you rotate those books out. So as I'm talking, if I wanted to make conversation with you, I could be like, oh, my gosh, yes. Peter Attia's book outlives so good. Did you like it? What was your biggest takeaway from that? Where, like, it gives me gifts of conversation. I also noticed, like, one time I was looking at Kevin Hart. He was on a zoom call, and his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him, and it was, like, a great conversation starter. And he even had one of the comedians behind him was, like, holding up his hand like this, like, literally in a permanent hello. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, Kevin Hart doesn't even realize he's doing the best nonverbal cue there is, which is palms. Like, we love a poem.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And what about looking at the camera versus looking at the face of the person?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I try to make them as close as possible. So, like, just physically speaking, if you can try to make your camera and your. And the person as close as possible, it's gonna help you be more authentic. Right. So, like, my screen is not over here. I see. Some people will have the mistake of, though. They're like, you know, they're off to the side and then, like, kind of looking over their shoulder at the camera. Please don't do that. So I have mine even, like, propped up. So, like, your face would be very close to the top of the camera. If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera, I'd be very happy. Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Really?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Yeah. Even though it's not real, our brain is still sort of, oh, yeah, they're looking at me. They're talking to me. They're not hiding anything. So 50, 50. If you could do it now.

[Stephen Bartlett]

We were talking a second ago about first Impressions, then second impressions, but also dating profile photos. Yesterday or the day before, my team here took you to a bar in Austin, Texas, and you met two different couples that were going on a first date. And your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date. And on that first date, one member of the couple had an earpiece in so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do. We're going to play some videos for anyone that's able to watch, but you give me the context and what happened and what you observed.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I was shocked by these dates. I was shocked because every single person except one hid their true feelings and that did not serve them. So we had the very first date and they were very well matched. By the way, like, I liked both of them. What was shocking about this date, though, is the female Ashley. I could not tell if she liked him. I literally had no idea. And I was in her ear, so I was whispering in her ear things to say and to ask. I was giving her all the warmth because she looked very cold. You would never have known she was into this guy. You would not have known. She said, oh, yeah, I'm really physically attracted to him. I was like, what? You didn't act attracted at all. And her questions were all very fact based. What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth. So we can watch it if you want.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Let's watch him.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

See? Are you ready to meet your lady? Are you ready? Yeah. Okay, so what is going to be your opening line? This is the we got to prepare a conversation starters because we can't do a how are you? A how are you? We can't do that.

[C]

What if I started with a who are you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, that breaks the scripts. I like it.

[C]

That, I mean, yeah, that's like, what.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Can I give you another one, though? Can you consider what's been good? And remember, this could also the same tip. If you were to see someone in a grocery store, someone in the park, like, what's the opener when you. It's cold, right? So like, I. I don't like a how are you? I don't like a what's up, doc?

[C]

Yeah, weather's great, right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, no, no.

[C]

I know.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So like, like, what's. What's been good? Or like what feels good to you? If you see something you like about her, feel free to authentically compliment if Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you're like, oh my gosh, you look beautiful, you know, like, that's a good one. So I think you can ask like, what's the goal you're working on? Like, CAS still a little. Good. Because then they'll say, I mean, what do you think you're gonna be in Austin forever? That's a very casual way of being. Like, what's your five year plan? My goal is a little bit of depth. I know you can make friends with anyone, but I want you to see if there's like an actual connection there.

[C]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. And then to see if it's. If you want a connection with her in a way at the end of the day. Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So what did you observe there when you watch it back?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so do you see? He got nervous.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah. His body, like he was.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Ugh. Because I knew it's easy for him to make friends with anyone. And very likable men sometimes have a. Have really a hard time getting serious relationships because they're so likable. They can make friends with everyone. They get confused about where the. Where the depth is.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's a defense mechanism and it's also what he's good at. We want to do what we're good at, which is, you know, making a chit chat. And a lot of people do this on dates. They'll be like, where are you from in Austin? No, that's the wrong question. What you ask is, what are your favorite secret spots in Austin? What do you love about Austin? What are the most underrated restaurants in Austin? That is breaking the script. And that happened to them on the State. There was a good five or ten minutes of boring fluff because they were on that. And I was like, get to the deeper questions. So when you're asking these questions to prepare ahead of time, what's the most underrated thing? What's your favorite thing? That would have been better. But he got very nervous when I started. I challenged him on Depth.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So the next video is the meeting. Feel free to pause it if there's anything pertinent or anything interesting. You want to show me what's your.

[C]

Favorite spot to go to around here then?

[D]

To be honest, I don't go out very much.

[C]

Okay, nice. What do you do?

[D]

I.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. She.

[Stephen Bartlett]

If someone said that to me, I'd assume they weren't interested in me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly right. Okay. So this is called dream killing. In conversation, when someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying, I don't do that. I don't like that. I don't want that. With nothing else left, like, she just stopped. I don't To Be honest. I don't really go out that much. And he said to me afterwards, that's the thing I'm most nervous about is that she sort of shut that down. So when you don't like something, don't dream. Kill the conversation. A better way to answer that would be, you know what? I do love to be in my jam jams at home, on the couch, watching Netflix. But for the right occasion, I can get out and party sometimes. That would have been a better way to answer that question because it's a little bit playful and it's not totally dream killing. His charisma. And watch this. She's gonna act like she's not interested at all, but she's actually very attracted to him. She said that to me.

[D]

Work a lot.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Tell him something you love. Tell him something you love.

[D]

What do I love? What do I love? What I love to do? Work out. Be outside. Be active.

[C]

Yeah, these are waters.

[D]

Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like, I don't know what this is.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. If you'd like one, always, always do a cheers. Cheers, Stephen.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Cheers.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Cheers. Cheers.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What does that do?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Cheers. Mm. It immediately warmed her up. She was very, very stiff in this. And I was like. I said to her in her ear, by the way, he did not know Kendrick. Poor Kendrick. He still doesn't know that I was. We never told him. I never told him. O Surprise. He didn't know that I was in her ear, whispering. She was so stiff. I said, tell him what you love, because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all because she was so stiff. And then she still. She was like, what do I love? I work out.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I just can't believe that she actually liked him.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Because everything about her is giving. I can't wait to leave.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

This is why we're having a baby crisis is because we are afraid to show that we like someone. She was physically attracted to him and into him. You would never know it. I was the one saying, cheers him. Say what you love. Ask him about his family. And so I think that this is a crisis because we think we're being obvious, but we are not being obvious. Yeah, I don't know.

[C]

I know. I was just sitting here like, this is a Tuesday, which is crazy. How long have you been in Austin?

[D]

Two years.

[C]

Okay. No, that's great.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right? Like. Like, that's why that didn't work. You just heard it. That's why I don't want you to do it on a date. It's a conversational dead end. No numbers questions. Unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation, you're willing to ask a follow up. But it was like, how about you follow up? Horrible.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How long you been in Austin? She went four years and then there was a gap. She had no intent at all of asking a follow up question.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right? No intent at all. Ask a follow up question. And he didn't know what to do with it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's funny cause when I watch this, I think he really likes her because he's leading the conversation and she's just hitting the ball back.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's right. But actually she was very into it. She just didn't know how to hit the ball back. Right. So if you're going to be in conversation, you want to be a master communicator. By the way, there are drivers and passengers in conversation. This is what I'm researching right now. You actually don't want all drivers. You don't want two people asking all the questions. But you have to be a good passenger. But she should have said two years. But actually I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years. Have you noticed that? Have you been here for a long time? She should have added one more thing to not dream kill.

[C]

Like three years.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, I'm from Ohio.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Like the Akron area.

[D]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Ask him, what do you love about Ohio?

[D]

Do you love. Do you miss Ohio?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No.

[C]

No, not really. I mean, I'll go back. My whole family's there. Right.

[D]

Can I ask how old you are?

[C]

Guess.

[D]

Oh, okay, guess.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

30.

[D]

30?

[C]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Why did you say guest 30?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I was giving her a microwin so she remember, we're trying to gift dopamine, serotonin and testosterone. Very simplified. It was not going great. Right. I was watching and this is like, oh my God, we're talking about Akron, Ohio. We're in trouble now. Right? So he tried with her. So I knew if she guessed right, it would like make her feel good. And I needed her to feel good. So she would start driving. She would start driving the conversation. So that's why I made. I told. I knew his age.

[C]

I'll be 31 in like a week.

[D]

But okay, I know you're not supposed to. Oh, wait, you're birth. So you're an Aries. Yeah, I'm an Aries too.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A me too moment.

[D]

My.

[C]

They set this up on purpose. They literally did. Yeah.

[D]

Wait, so what day is your birthday?

[C]

April 1st.

[D]

Okay. Oh, I'm March 29th. What are you doing?

[C]

Are you serious? Yeah, I think that's My mother's birthday.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What's her body language? Giving here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Very closed.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And in. I'd never done this before. I wanted to say to her, open up. Laugh more, Touch your lips, touch your hair. There's a lot of things that women can do to show, I am feeling physically attracted to you. But I was like, oh. Like, I wasn't sure she was physically attracted. So here I am thinking, is she physically attracted? If she wanted to show him I'm into you, she could have touched her hair, she could have touched her lips. She could have touched the side of her face. All of those are gestures of, like, self touch that show interest. But she didn't show any of that. She also was. See how tight. See how little space she's taking up. Defeated body language, let's say. So very, very closed off. We are gonna be in trouble if we can't show that we like someone. I also want you to notice as soon as they had the me too moment, the thread theory, they both warmed up.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, they did. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, once we get a me too moment, it's, like, so much faster to laugh more. She actually, like, literally physically relaxed because we.

[C]

I love dancing. And they, like, always have a dj. It's more like clubby.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You love dancing. See, I love dancing.

[D]

I love dancing.

[C]

Yeah. I love throwing ass. That's what I.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

She was gonna let that go, but I was trying to give her a thread. I love dancing, and also I'm trying to get her to say love. So a lot of the questions I were like, what do you love about Ohio? Do you love dancing? Like, when you use more words like that, you're actually queuing for that. I think we talked about last time that when you use. Like, when they had people split up into Wall street and community, people who were told they were playing the community game actually acted in a more communal way. When you use words like love and excitement and good and looking forward, you actually create those feelings. So on a date, you want to be using the words that you're trying to create, Especially because she actually felt something. She liked him a lot.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But even beyond a date, Right? In a professional context, yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Then it would be like, let's have some wins, like, what's good? Right? You're trying to have efficiency and productivity and trust and collaboration. If you want to have a collaborative meeting, literally in your calendar, call it collaboration meeting. If you want to say, hi, team. Every time you say team, you're priming for team. Right? So those words really matter.

[D]

I'm. I'm Kind of like. Like a early bed kind of person.

[C]

Yeah. No, I love that. I. I'm not. I, Like, I could, like, every night.

[D]

Or just, like, the weekends.

[C]

I'm extremely extrovert. So it's like, okay, absolutely. Let's go. And then it's like, I'm so tired.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[D]

I'm extroverted and introverted. Like, once I'm out, like, I'm not. I'm probably not going home.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But then it's like, I also love my, like, alone time.

[C]

I'm learning. Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So do you hear? She's using vocal fry. When you use closed body language, it affects your voice. So I. Vocal fry is when you're like, I love going out, and I kind of love. Right. So she started to go into a little bit of vocal fry here, which is not attractive. We do not like vocal fry.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Why is she doing that?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think she's doing it because she's so closed. It's very hard to get good vocal power when you're that closed. Okay. So you can hear it here.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Wake up and it's next week.

[D]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What?

[D]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Who did that?

[D]

But then it's like, I also love my, like, alone time.

[C]

I'm learning to love it more.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

We could still go get a drink if you wanted, if you're not busy, or go another day after your birthday.

[D]

Okay. If you're interested, we can do that. After my birthday.

[C]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Can I ask you a question on that?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

He seemed to bottle it there. He said, we can go get a drink if you want to, if you're interested, or we can go.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But I. It's because she didn't immediately be like, yeah, no. I got a little angry after this date. Tell me you'd love. You'd love to go out.

[D]

Yeah. Just like, no, I would love to go out when I get back.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's make it happen. It's.

[D]

That's in about 45 days.

[C]

Because you're going to Europe.

[D]

Yeah. For 30 days.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Maybe something sooner.

[C]

Are you leaving, like, right on your birthday?

[D]

No, I'm leaving on the 21st, but that's in 10 days, and I haven't finished booking the whole entire trip.

[C]

Yeah. To run those numbers.

[D]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

She rejected him.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I was real mad after this date because I asked her, are you attracted to him? Yes. Did you like him? Yes. Did you have fun? Yes. Would you like to go out with him again? I'm real busy. I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. He's fun. You're attracted to him and you're too busy. Busyness is not a mark of success. Busyness is going to prevent you from finding your person. And this is a problem we have. We're so busy with our self care rituals and our workouts and our work that we are missing opportunities for connection. And connection is the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. We have to stop saying we're too busy to connect with good people.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Was she actually too busy like, or is she scared or something? Because I just don't understand that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I literally think she thought she was too busy. And I was like, get your priorities straight. And so this is not Even if you're looking for your person. I also see this with friendships, Friends, where we put our friendships last. But actually, if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis, who do you want? Your support system and your friends. We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life, especially with good people. And so it made me angry because I thought this could be a great person for you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you know what's really wild is had they met in a village a hundred years ago, they'd be married.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Married, babies.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But I guarantee if you hadn't intervened in this situation and this wasn't. If you weren't sort of coercing them to like to hang around with each other, they'd never see each other again.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. And I said after the mics were off, I was like, go get him, girl. Go get him. And they did. And they sat in the bar and they chatted for the entire hour and they walked out together.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, they left together a house.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

By the way, let's get some DAOC babies.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I know some babies.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I will be an officiant at the wedding. We can do it together.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I imagine. Imagine if they. But it's so I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We were talking about it as a team. I was saying one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options, too many choices.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So jams are choices.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you know the jams though?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, yeah. You have, you know, 20 jams on a table. People will pick none. Cause there's just too many when there's only three. People Buy more.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Very simple.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And this is going on in dating at the moment. Do you know what? It was a friend of mine, we were having a debate actually in the room over there a couple of days ago, and they were saying to me, I just need to meet more Guys. And I'm sat there thinking, your actual job is networking. Like you get paid to meet people. You know, more people than anyone I know. I could say right now, I could say to this person, I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas. And this person should go, I know the guy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, wow.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So I was saying, like, the issue might be that, you know, you have.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Too many options, too much jam.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Too much jam.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so too many choices is one. But I also think, like, we are so accidentally, we become so obsessed with our morning routine, our evening routine, our rituals, our self care. Self care wasn't even a thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago. So what happens is I see rigidity. There's a new rigidity happening for both men and women, but a lot of women too, where, oh, I can't go on that date because I have to do my morning routine. I can't do that thing because I have to get my workout in. And I think that we are putting our connections in last place when actually if we wanna know what's really good for our health and our longevity, it's our relationships. We get the most of the good chemicals of the good happy laughs and the endorphins when with other people. And we keep putting it last.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You must meet people, though, that they've been on like 100 dates and they tell you that they just can't find the person. And you go, 100 dates, like 100 years ago, you wouldn't even know 100 people and you'd be happily married.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, yes. I also think our checklists are getting in the way.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Checklists.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So many single people, I know they'll tell me they have a list. They have a list of things that they really want. When I met my husband, I did not have a list, but there was just a connection there. And even though we were very different on paper, it just worked. And so I think that when people have a checklist, it actually blinds them to seeing a connection right in front of their face. And she said to me, I don't know if this is on camera or not, so hopefully it's okay if I share it. But she's like, you know, I just. I don't know if he's as career oriented as I was. Like, that's really important to me. And I knew that was on her list. On her list, on her internal list. Career is right up top now. They didn't even talk about career. So I said, well, did you even know what he does?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Will know so she was judging him based on his personality.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. And it didn't check the list. And so what can happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional. What do you do? Check. Where are you from? Don't know. Check.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So you're trying to get.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You want kids. Mm. So these checklists, I think, are creating a lot of rigidity. And then you add in the busyness, the busyness trap, which is, I'm so successful. I'm so busy. Busy is not a mark of success.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you think there's also an element that we've got more and more ambivalent with the more and more we date, the more it becomes transactional, the more we show up without passion or interest or curiosity.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't know if that's ambivalence. I think that is numbness. Like, people have gotten really attractive. I don't know if you've noticed this.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, they have.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

My goodness. People are so pretty. Like, I'm on Instagram and I'm like, how does everyone look so good? Like, I didn't really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school. Like, did you? No. Cause that wasn't really a thing. I'm, like, old, right? Like, no one had that. There was no social media. So, like, people had, like, you know, normal looks. Now people are extremely attractive. And so I think that the bar has gone up so that we're all, like, numb to how beautiful people are, how funny people are, how kind people are, because we've been on a thousand dates, or the funniest, best thing they ever did is on their Instagram, and we saw it. So anything else is like, eh, seen it. Like, nothing is impressive anymore. There's two challenges I recommend for people who are in kind of a funk. If you're in a. You're burnt out or you're feeling lonely, or you're like, things are not working. There's two challenges you could consider. The first one is really hard, and it's the no mirror challenge. It's. You go 30 days without looking in a mirror. Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like. And it's especially powerful for women. I did it for 30 days and I went, you have to do all your normal things. You have to go to meetings. You have to go out without looking in a mirror, which means usually you don't wear makeup, you don't do your hair. You kind of just go out as you are first. You realize that people still like you even if you don't look perfect. So no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships, your true friends are. The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge, which is if you don't have any dopamine from your phone, you have to go get dopamine and oxytocin from in person relationships. So if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone and you have to go out in person, you actually do. Like, I remember when I used to travel for work and I'd get to a city and there was nothing to do. Like, there was no phone in my hotel. I did not have an iPad. You could read a book or you could try to go out. And that's what I would do. I would, like, get to a city and I'd be like, well, I have nothing to do in the hotel room. There's literally nothing to do. I had my book or I could go to the hotel bar, I could go walk around the city. And I met more people in that time of my life than I do now, even though I'm connected to more people than ever.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago, which links to what you're saying. Someone said to me that much of the cause of the incel culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games. And the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment, the sense of building. It also gives them the dopamine hit when you win a sword or some coins or something. And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being a workaholic. If I'm working all day, every day on a screen and I'm constant, which is what I do when it comes to, like, going out and meeting people and networking, for me, it's like hell. And I'm wondering if there's a link there. I'm like, maybe if I wasn't on the screen for like 12 hours a day, I'd have more dopamine left over to go speak to somebody.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Dopamine. And also the energy flip wouldn't be so massive. The energy that you're using on your computer is very much output, right? Like you're putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind. When you go out, it's a feedback. It's back and forth. Having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring. And if you already get dopamine from your screen. What's the motivation for going out in person? There's only downside.

[Stephen Bartlett]

My computer has never energized me, but these conversations always do.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Why would you go out? You're already having the best conversations you can do and you're in control. And look, I don't know. Just saying. I think you like control.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you think I like control? In what context? What do you think I like control in?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The reason I bring up the control thing is if you are on social media, you are in complete control. You decide how often you scroll, you decide where you click. You decide when you're done with someone, you just exit their video. Well, you know, in conversation, if I don't like your answer, I can't go off. I can't turn your volume down. I can't double click on your. Like, I actually have to sit and listen to you. And I think that if you're in control of your conversations, and even at this table, you are in control, I'm talking a lot, but you can interrupt me anytime you want and I will answer whatever question you ask me. And so I wonder, don't be mad at me if in real conversation I could ask you anything that I want. Right now I have a thousand questions for you, but I'm trying to not ask them.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Ask me the questions.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Well, I asked you the one about control, but you didn't really answer. You tossed it back to me. You don't think you're a control freak?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Probably.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, thank you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, probably. It's all context dependent because when you said control freak, I was like, well, I don't have any control in that part of my life that's like a democracy, but typically in business, I think that I'm a control freak.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And that's why you say, so my team. Yeah, I'd say, yeah, he's a control freak. So I would argue, am I control freak?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Am I?

[Stephen Bartlett]

He's laughing.

[D]

He was already laughing about it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I. Thank you, Jack. You're welcome.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Am I a control freak?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

This is.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No, I am.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So I think. Look, I don't know, but my guess would be why you don't want to go out with people is because you have to give up control and you have to be in a conversation where you might be asked something that might be boring or you don't like it and like, why? Why?

[Stephen Bartlett]

I do struggle. I really struggle with going to networking events and stuff. I really struggle with that stuff.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't love a networking event. But I've found that if I have a very specific goal, it's better. So, like, for example, if I, like, I'm researching my next book, I'm looking for conversational case studies. So if I'm going to the event and I'm like, okay, tonight I'm gonna try a new question and see how it goes, you know, I'm, then I'm like, okay, I have a purpose. Or if I'm like, I'm gonna practice some new jokes, or if I'm like, I'm looking from a new, you know, business inspiration, like, that helps me. So I think no one really likes networking events, but if you have a goal, it makes it a little bit better.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Just for a second, I want to talk about a company I've invested in and who sponsored this podcast called Zoe. Like me, many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep. But how many of you understand how your body handles food? Metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food. And we all react differently. So Zoe created a test to help you understand how your body responds. And it starts with their famous test cookies, which are identical test meals with the same sugar, fat and calorie content of the average meal, and therefore acts as a metabolic challenge. You also wear a continuous glucose monitor that tests your blood sugar levels. I've done this test and it left me wondering how my metabolic fitness compared to others like me. And my results revealed everything. So if you'd like to learn about your body's response to food, head over to Zoe.com to order your test kit now. And if you want a discount, use code STEPHEN10 at checkout for 10% off your membership. As a Zoe member, you'll get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your health. That's Zoe.com with code Stephen10. We're talking about business there. If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business, are there any ways that I can become a little bit more? I guess there's different types of leaders that struggle with different things. But how do great leaders communicate? What do they do well?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, this is my favorite topic as a leader, especially if you're trying to get meet people and new people, especially your what do you do? Needs to be. I am a who helps. A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections. And so they'll be very either like intellectual with their answer so like or very vague. So like I've heard business leaders say, oh, you know, I run a tech company. Mm. That is a dream killer for a conversation. People don't know what to do with that. So what you're better off saying is, I have a tech company and we help aspiring cooks.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

If you click on the first link there with the. With the gentleman whose name is Tim. Tim.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, yeah, Tim.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I love Tim. So Tim is my person. Okay. Tim is my person. Let me tell you about Tim. So Tim is a code monkeysoftware engineer, which. We'll watch that video in a second. He is highly technical. He's very kind. He loves what he does. And on the date, he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time. And I didn't know. I even said to Jack, I was like, I think he's into her. And I asked him afterwards, I said, are you into her? And he said, no. And I was very impressed with him because he still showed warmth, congeniality, and kindness, even though he wasn't physically into her. And I was like, this is magic. I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward. And I was like, ooh, Tim, if we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth, you are gonna find your person. And so I love Tim. We can watch his interaction.

[Stephen Bartlett]

The first clip of Tim there I thought was fascinating. That one there.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Okay. You're gonna have a great date. First, I. Can I help you out with some advice? Yeah. Okay. So ignore the cameras completely. Okay. You're making great eye contact, which I love. She's probably gonna ask you, what do you do? Okay. What is your answer to that question? I am a code monkey or a software engineer. Okay, cool. So anytime I meet a software engineer, it's a good answer, but it's a conversational dead end. Because unless I'm a software engineer, I don't know what to say. So I'm like, so what I want you to do is actually create a hook. So you're going to say, so what kind of coding do you do? I do a lot of backend stuff.

[C]

That's probably too much.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Nope. Don't even know what that is. You have to think of a hook to give me so that you don't have this. What do you do? Software engineer. What do you do? Teacher? Because we have to have it. We can't. You can't say I'm a software engineer. Do you like art?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We can't do that, right? How long have you been doing it? How about that? I've been doing it for five to.

[C]

Six years and been loving my team so far.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So do you lead a team?

[C]

I hope to one day, but not right now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But you love your team. Okay, So I think that that could be your hook. So I think you could say, like, I'm a code monkey, AKA software engineer. The best part of my job is playing with code all day, but also like hanging out with my team. Then you're giving me a lot of hooks that I can then say next. Any body language questions for me? Your body language looks great. You're making eye contact. I love your visible hands. You already watched my Stephen interview? Oh, sometimes. Okay, perfect. So I think it's great. Mutual laughing is really good too. So, like, that's great. If you're ever nervous, just laugh. Okay. Yeah, it's gonna go really well. Okay. You got this. Okay. So this is exactly what happens with highly competent folks is they have an answer to the question. That's just the answer. That's not how good conversation works. Master communicators make it very easy for people to ask a follow up question or to get hooked in. So whatever your answer is, as a leader, you want to give people enough hook to be able to be like, oh, I want to know more about that. Software engineer. Didn't do that for Tim. Now. Her response to this question is terrible. Terrible. Did you see what happened on the date?

[Stephen Bartlett]

No.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my goodness. So what do you do? Cheers. Cheers to you as well.

[D]

I am an AI consultant and I make tech content.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, okay.

[D]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

In the tech space. In the tech space, yes. Awesome.

[D]

What about you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I am a code monkey. Or code monkey.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[D]

Oh, no, no.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Software engineer.

[C]

No, I love my job.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Tell them something good. Okay. Yeah, we love code monkeys. Yeah.

[D]

No, I used to be a code monkey.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No way.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, you used to.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

For like six years. Seven maybe.

[D]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Did you like it?

[D]

I did, but I.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[D]

I thought I liked it and then I realized I didn't.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No way.

[D]

Yeah, it was like one of those things where after it's over, you're like, wait a second, I wasn't that happy.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I have to say, I don't think he should call himself a code monkey.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it's a bit.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's demeaning.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. And also people don't know what it is really. Like, I didn't even really know what it was. I was like, what?

[Stephen Bartlett]

But it Sounds kind of. Her reaction was telling. She went, oh, no.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, no. And so she says, oh, no. So first of all, I said to her afterwards, why did you do that? If you disagree with someone, you can disagree with them, but then give them something else. So she was basically like, oh, no. And then he's like, yeah, I love what I do. Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But I think he has responsibility there because he shouldn't describe himself as a code, a monkey, anything.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

The minute you sound like you are a. Like a involuntary slave to something against your will.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Totally.

[Stephen Bartlett]

If I said I was a podcast monkey, you wouldn't think, oh, amazing, I'm so happy for you, would you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, I'd be like, weird.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Exactly. It's the word monkey that they're adding. Makes it seem painful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think you're right. He came up with a better answer. And this is the takeaway for leaders, is what question are you asked all the time? I know people in business are asked the same question all the time, either networking or in their business pitches. I always think this when I watch Dragon's Den or Shark Tank is like, you knew this question was coming. You want to have a really, really good answer. And so making sure that you're ready for the answer. And the more stories you can use, the better. Right. That's why I'm like, I want you to start. That note in your phone of all the stories, of all the different topics that come up is it's so important to have good answers with those questions that you know are coming your way.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What's a great answer? Then give me an example of a great answer. So if I'm the CEO of a media company, what's a great answer? If someone says, what'd you do?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I'm the CEO of media company. So you want to start with clarity. So what is it exactly you do? I don't like people who have, like, these crazy, weird metaphors for like. Right, right. So tell them what you do. I'm a CEO of a media company, and, you know, we work with amazing clients. Like, so tell me, who's the best client you worked for? The most interesting client you worked for. What's the most interesting project you worked for? Like, tell me that story or tell me how you moonlight. So if your job is boring, be like, oh, you know, I'm a CEO of a media company, but I garden on my free time. Give me the side hustle so I can say, oh, what kind of media? Or tell me about the gardening. So give an interesting story about who it is. You work for or give me a side hustle that's really interesting. Or passion.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And I heard you say that using the word because as a leader is important to getting people to come with you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Humans need reasons. When there is a reason, even if it's a silly reason, it helps us feel more motivated. So it was a very, very silly study that was done that looked at this, where they had people go up to a copy machine in a library and ask, can I make copies? Now everyone who's in the line for the copy machine has to make copies. They found that people who went up to the line to cut the line and said, excuse me, can I make some copies? They got rejected. They were like, no, dude, get in the back of line. We're all making copies. But if someone said, excuse me, can I make copies? I really have to copy this. Like, with a reason. People were more likely to let them cut, even though it was exactly the same thing as the first thing. The point of the study was to show that if you have a because, even if it's a silly because, people are more likely to do things for you. Now, I don't love this idea, but I think the important point for us is you want to know your why. That's why I said, tell people who you help. So if you're a CEO of a media company, who you help is your most interesting client. Or if you're a life coach, don't just say, I'm a life coach or I'm a consultant. I'm a life coach. I help women who really want to get their nutrition under control. Then I know who you work for. That's your why. And that gives someone a reason. Or, you know, I really love to work with you. I think that I could really, really change your nutritional outlook and put you in more control of your nutrition. That because even though it's implied, even though I already heard it, it hooks someone in to go, ah, if they have a why, I can buy into that why. And I don't think he did a very good job on that. However, he was very warm with her, even though he wasn't into it. And that was very respectful.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How are either of them supposed to know if the other person is attracted to them?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly. This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. The number one thing that is causing loneliness is we are withholding our liking, both with friends and in romance with all of these daters. None of them, 0% showed any kind of obvious liking. How are we going to have babies? How Are we going to have marriages if we're withholding our liking? How are we going to have friends if we don't know if someone likes us? I think we should be going around showing, amplifying our likes, the people that we're with.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So how do I signal that I like someone and how do I know if they like me?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so verbally, I think it's very easy, right? You can be very direct and be like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun. So like my magic phrases, right? If someone is interesting, funny, likable, fun, say in that moment, ah, this is so fun. This is so interesting. Being with you is always so interesting. So that's one way you can do it is affirming the adjective that you're already feeling and saying it out loud. Right? Like, I think that Kendrick was very funny and I actually said to him in our, like pre interview, I was like, oh, you're really funny. That must be a double edged sword.

[Stephen Bartlett]

He was the first guy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The first guy, yeah. I said, you're really funny. And that made him feel really good. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I am. And I was like, I think that's good. But also probably it's harder to get depth. He's like, yes, that's true. So if someone is funny, interesting, delightful, a good conversationalist, tell them. That's the first thing is like, don't withhold that.

[Stephen Bartlett]

We don't tell people, do we?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Never.

[Stephen Bartlett]

We don't tell people. Just thinking about a meeting I had last week and I was thinking, God, if I'd started that meeting just by telling the person what I thought of them, positive thing. It would have completely probably made them feel good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Goes back to your point about giving them serotonin or.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it makes you more likable. Like, we like people who like us. So the more obvious you are with your liking actually just makes you more likable. So affirming them, making sure that they know that you were thinking of them. So, like, I was just thinking of you. I was so looking forward to this. I'm looking forward to this all day. And then nonverbal liking. So for men, vocalizations. Hmm. Ah. Oh, we love those. We love a triple nod. We love a head tilt, we love a lean, all of those. See? Oh. You know, there was something funny that I read recently, which is women list humor as a number one trait they want in a man. Men don't care as much about humor in a woman. They want a woman who laughs at their jokes. Of course, Which I thought this was so good and so helpful that for a man, yes, it's good if you can work on being funny because women do like it. But if you're a woman, you actually don't have to be that funny. You just have to be willing to laugh. And that brings me back to liking being an easy laugher. Like, being ready to laugh is one of the most likable, complimentary things you can do for someone else. That was good. Thank you. I like this. Is this real or not real? We like it. I like it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You can't even tell.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Well, that's a very believable laugh. It was good. There's sometimes people will withhold their laughing or they'll be like, oh, that's funny. Right. So being an easy laugher is also the fastest way to tell someone, I like you. When we laugh, we are absolutely showing we like someone. So nonverbal. And verbal liking is like, what if you're not funny?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Cause a lot of people, we've sort of categorized ourselves as being a funny person or a not funny person. So is there a way, if you're not funny, to be funny?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And it's being the best passenger ever. If you're not a joke teller, the joke teller is the driver. Right. In a conversation, they're telling funny stories, they're telling funny anecdotes, they're very funny, they're driving. Well, drivers need passengers to laugh at their jokes. So you are going to be the best passenger ever. You're going to laugh at the joke, you're going to bang on the table. I love table bangers. You know, I have people in my life who are not very funny, but they love to bang on the table when I tell a funny joke. And that makes me feel so good. They don't need to be funny. I'm happy to try. Right. So if you're not funny, just be very good at hyping up other funny people. You also could be a curator of funny. You find the best funny gifs, you find the best funny clips, you share the best funny posts. Like, you don't have to be funny to be a curator of funny. Like, I have a friend who's not that funny, but he has the best clips and memes that he sends me. And so I think of him as funny even though he's never told a joke.

[Stephen Bartlett]

He's just passing on other people's funny.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Totally. But it's associated with him.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But that does make him funny because he knows how to select funny. Cause I've got a friend who sends the worst gifts, but it's never funny. They're like the never funny ones.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But doesn't it make you laugh?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Fine. Gifts.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What do I mean? The gifts are so strange.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I've got one friend, my friend ash. She sends 5G. But I got this other friend who I shan't name.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, please don't name him.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No, no.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Just in case everyone's listening, he literally sends not funny gifs.

[Stephen Bartlett]

We've all got a friend that sends the bad meme and they drop it in the chat and everyone's like, thumbs up, you know?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But doesn't it make you kind of laugh? Don't you love them for it?

[Stephen Bartlett]

I love them, but I think, could they improve their meme game? Yeah, I wouldn't take the risk. Especially if I hadn't hit any fire emojis in a long time. I wouldn't be high conviction.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, if that was them, if that was me, if I'm like, I'm not that funny, I can learn to be funny.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you think you can learn to be funny?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think I have, like, I think I've learned to be a little bit funny with, like, my sense of humor. I think take an improv class. Like, really, really take an improv class. A lot of humor is just trying things and seeing if they land. So if you're not funny and you want to be in, like, something good to work on, take an improv class and work on being funny on stage. I also think you can study funny people and see how they make their jokes. Like, you can have the same jokes. For example, I have a friend who, whenever he's over at our house and I say babe to my husband, he goes, yes. And it's always funny. It's always funny. It's the only joke he really makes. But I love it. And so I think that you can also have, like, sort of jokes that you've figured out that you just use over and over again.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And touch. Is that a cue of interest?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, I love touch. But you have to be a little bit careful with it, because if you do it inauthentically or awkwardly, it's like a total fail and looks terribly, horribly wrong. I love a high five. Like, I love, like, oh, my gosh, that was great. Yes. Oh, my gosh. We're both into that. Like, I love. Like, you're making up your mind and.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Then you can pull off high fives.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Like, I don't know whether this is a British thing or not, but if I started high fiving, people in meetings. People would think I was very strange.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, I think people would like it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No, I think, I think it's. I think people have like a model of you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, okay.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I think they understand like the upper limits of your enthusiasm when you're excited, you know, your playfulness. I think high fiving, it's outside your bubble. Jemima. Do you know Jemima out there?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Of course.

[Stephen Bartlett]

She could high five. She could get away with it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Of course. Cause that's like, I think, why have high five?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Jemima? There you go.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, okay, so, all right, find your thing. You have a flavor. Yeah, right. Everyone has a flavor. Your flavor is not high fiving, but it's probably something else, like a dry sense of humor. In fact, they did a study where they looked at worriers and not worriers like neurotics and non neurotics. Neurotics are known for making self deprecating jokes and we like it about that. Like they're constantly making fun of themselves and we like it. Whereas low neurotics, people who are not warriors, who are like really confident, they love to make jokes about other things, but never about themselves. So everyone has their flavor and that's good. You gotta find it. And you should study people who are like you. Right. Like there has to be like, I love to watch like those talk shows, like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel or whatever. And I pay attention to the interviews that have more than one laugh every 30 seconds. So my goal on a keynote, like I give a lot of keynotes for organizations. I try to have a laugh every minute if I can. I think that if you have a laugh every minute, you're considered funny. And that actually opens up the brain to more learning. So on interviews I pay attention to who are the interviews, what are the interviews, where they're getting a laugh every 30 seconds, 30 to 60 seconds. And I'm paying attention to how are they doing it. And that is how I've learned to be funny. Like, for example, like a really easy one for, for humor I've learned is like, if you have like one, two, three things, and the third thing is weird, people almost always laugh. So if you're like, oh, you know, Texas is great. What's the land of tacos, cowboy hats and hot girls? Like, if you make the third thing a weird one, people kind of like, ha. Like they think it's funny. And so like if you have, like you can begin to play with those things if you learn. But I've noticed that as a pattern, just like anecdotally by watching people. So I think that you can find someone who's like, you like, you should find a British smart guy who's a British smart guy who's funny.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Jack. Jack's smart.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, Jack. And just like, see what kind of jokes they're making. I bet you those jokes will work for you too.

[Stephen Bartlett]

They do, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I still, like, steal jokes from British.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Smart people, for sure. It's like, in that works. I also think there was a study that was done about, like, charisma, and we're talking about master communicators, especially leaders. I work with a lot of leaders, and what I tell them is you can actually channel your role model that will completely change your body language. They asked presenters to present on stage a little one minute presentation, which, by the way, very hard to do if you're not a presenter. So they have them give a little presentation on stage. And they took them off and they said, okay, now we want you to channel Steve Jobs and give another presentation. Now don't tell anyone what you're doing, but just in your mind, just channel him. When they got on stage, they were more charismatic. They used more vocal variety, they used more hand gestures, they were more confident. They spent almost double the amount of time on stage, and they liked it more simply by channeling Steve Jobs. So I share this because I think you don't necessarily have to be funny or charismatic on your own, but if you're channeling the most funny person you know or the most charismatic person you know, it can transform your vocal and nonverbal cues to be more like that person.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Micro expressions, yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I feel like when I ask you a question, every question's your favorite question.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I have some that are not my favorites, but you haven't asked them yet.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay, good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, good. This is what got me into this work. It was actually micro expressions. So there are many people, especially if you have narcissists in your life, who misinterpret neutral expressions as negative. So one of the problems I had early on that caused me to be awkward is I thought everyone hated me. I thought everyone was angry at me, so I'd misinterpret the expression. I would think they hate me, which made me even more awkward. It was a very bad cycle. So what? One of the first things I discovered with this work where I was like, why doesn't everyone know this? I was 20 years old and I stumbled upon this idea that some of our expressions are universal. That across cultures and genders and races, we make the same Facial expressions for the same emotions. Now, there's some controversy about micro expressions and how universal they are, but there's seven that we've found have a lot of universal applications, and I would love to teach you those seven, please. Okay, let's actually start with fear. So fear is a universal response, and when we make this face, it helps keep us safe. It's when we widen our eyes so our eyelids, our upper whites show. We raise our eyebrows up, and we usually open our mouth like that. The reason we make this face innately is because if we see a tiger, like back from caveman days, our mouth opens, takes in oxygen, and opens a case. We have to yell for help or run for our lives. Our eyebrows and our eyelids lift up so we can take in as much of the space as possible. The safest face I can make as a human is this one. Right. I can say anything. I can take in oxygen. I can see as much as possible. That is why we make that expression. When we feel fear, when we see it, and you see it a lot in business environments, you are spotting, oh, I just tapped into a little bit of nervousness, and it typically happens around confusion. So I will sometimes be giving a presentation, and I'll notice someone will go, and I know I just said something that they didn't like or they made them nervous or that makes them feel a little bit afraid. And I can say, this makes sense. Are we all good? Let me rewind and re explain that again. So I spot the fear, and I immediately address it. So what you want to look for is those upper whites of someone's eyes. That's how you know that someone just triggered. You triggered a little bit of nervousness in them.

[Stephen Bartlett]

When you say upper whites of someone's eyes, what you mean?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I literally mean the upper whites up here, so not lower. Like, when I'm afraid, my eyes peel up so you can see the upper whites of my eyes. It's very unnatural to do that. Right. Like, you would never do that. Normally, we do that when we're actually feeling afraid. Now, I tend to raise my eyebrows up to show, like, a punctuation, but this is, like. It's a much bigger expression. Yeah. So when you see it, make sure that you immediately address it so you calm that fear. Okay. So fear is the first one. The second one that I want to talk about is disgust. So disgust is a very negative emotion. We make it when we don't like something. So it's when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of Our teeth. Yeah, it's his face. We do it to inhibit our nasal passages, like when we smell something bad or taste something bad. But interestingly, we also do this when we don't like something we hear or see. I see this a lot with lie detection. So we do a lot of lie detection research. And I've noticed lying makes people feel dirty. We do not like to lie. And so people will often lie as they'll make the disgust expression as they're lying. So I'll say, you know, so what do you think of the new guy? Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, he's pretty good. And they hold this expression up, look for secret disgust. If you ask someone a preference based question, if they're lying, they will often show disgust because they're literally disgusted with themselves for having to make that distinction. So it's an inhibitor and you always want to look up here. We don't do that naturally, right? We don't do that naturally at all. So that's a really good one to look out for. Also, you can predict behavior better with disgust. Right? So if you ask someone a question and they go, um, you know that they're not in a good headspace, that's when you immediately want to give permission. Hey, look, I'm on your side. I'd rather just know what you really think. I have prevented lies by giving someone full permission to just tell me the truth.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, I think I pull that sometimes when I don't want to do something. So someone might say, do you want to go to this restaurant? I go, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you don't even realize you're doing it because we make it accidentally.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It looks like I'm mulling, but actually I've given away that I actually don't want to go.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And why not be in relationships where we can say, hey, look, we're good. We don't have to go to dinner. Yeah, we're like, I'd much rather say that. Okay, that's disgust. Anger is a really interesting one. So anger, they did computer generated faces and they found that when you make the components of anger, it makes your face look stronger. People perceive you as stronger. So the reason we make this from an evolutionary perspective is because when we are angry, it makes us look physically strong, which makes sense before we get into a fight. So anger is when we usually tense our lids. We pinch our shoulders together and we harden our lips and we often jut our jaw out. So jut your jaw at me. Mm. Mm. Like before a fight, people often will be like, what's Up. What's up? They jut their jaw out. Cause it makes you look stronger. It's a way of, like, showing territorial gestures. And we also tense our lips and tense our eyes. This makes us see better. So right before a fight. No, you look confused. Don't, Mickey. I'm sorry.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I'm trying to.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so harden your lips. Yep.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I thought I had it hot on my lips.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, you actually did it perfectly just a second ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you see those vertical lines appear. And then tilt your chin out at me. Yeah, that's like, what are you doing? I don't like this. And if you hold that expression, you'll begin to feel angry and defensive. Isn't that weird?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So it makes you look strong. That's why we make that face I always look out for. In the business environment, you don't often see that full anger. Right. But you will often see a chin jut. So if I'm like, in a meeting or I'm a team call and I'm looking and someone goes, yeah, I know that. I've just made them a little bit angry. Typically in anger, people do two things. They go on the offensive or the defensive. I want to prevent either. So when someone's angry, they go, it's not my fault. It's your fault. Offensive or they go on the defensive, not my fault. I don't want that. Right. So they'll often attack or they get very defensive. I want to disengage that completely. So I'll say, hey, look, we are on the same page. If you see someone in anger, you want to immediately go into shared mutual understanding. Mutual. Okay, so that's anger. Let's talk about a good one, which is happiness. So happiness we've talked about before, which is the only true expression of happiness, is when the happiness reaches all the way up into our upper cheek muscles. All the way up here.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I know I've tried so hard with the smiling thing since we last met, but it's really not going well for me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know, but when you are happy, like when you laughed earlier, authentically, it does it automatically. It already does it. So it's this upper cheek muscles. When we reach those upper cheek muscles, don't fake smile. I'd rather you real smile. That looks good.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Does that actually?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Yeah, it was good. Oh, yes, I like it. I'm always on the lookout for fake smiles. Right. Like, especially in the work setting, is if someone. Especially in sales. I do a lot of sales trainings. If someone's like, oh, yeah, I love this, but they don't love it. You're not done selling. Like, keep building rapport. So you're looking for the absence of real happiness. That's what you really want to talk about.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And that's really. You said it's about this section.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, this section of your face.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So this should go up and that should.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

All the way up. Yes. And you remember, anyone can fake smile. It's all in your upper cheek muscles.

[Stephen Bartlett]

All in your upper cheek muscles.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, here? Yeah, like that. That's it. That's why you have to be careful with Botox, because there's a lot of. I could talk a lot about Botox if you want to, but when people Botox their smile wrinkles, they actually feel less happy. So there's a feedback hypothesis of when you show an emotion, you actually begin to feel the emotion. So people who have Botox their smile wrinkles can't make a true happy face and actually feel less happy. It's also the same with negative emotions. So if you Botox your anger, you'll actually feel less angry. They've started to use it for anger management. As if you Botox your anger muscles, you actually are less volatile. So there's all kinds of things that happen with our face when we begin to change it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Damn.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so that's anger. Sadness.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Sadness is the most contagious of all the expressions. So sadness is the hardest one to fake. It's really hard to do. So the first thing is you pull your mouth down into a frown, and then you puff out your lower lip, and then you pinch your eyes together and kind of droop your lids. Uh oh. Made you yawn. You know what's funny is if you make a sadness expression, it will either make you yawn or cry. Oh, your eyes watering? Yeah, it worked.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I think the yawn made the eyes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Water, but it's all part of the same system.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Oh, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Isn't that crazy? Isn't that weird how that happens?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So, you know, you've made a good facial expression or a good sadness session when you actually begin to tear up. They found that when babies want attention, they pout out their lower lip. Cause we find it quite cute. Right? Like when babies do that, we're like, oh, we need to help you. So it's actually evolutionary that when we do that, it actually is a way that we get help. So when I see that downward frown, he'll pull their mouth into a downward frown. I know that something is going on for them. And I'm careful with this at work especially, it's empathy, compassion, or space. Like, if someone's going through something at work, you don't always want to be like, well, tell me about your divorce. Go ahead and tell me about that. No, you might want to be like, look, if this is not a good time for a meeting, we can reschedule. We don't have to do this. Right. So I think that space is sometimes the best thing. Or can I help?

[Stephen Bartlett]

But it's hard to tell the difference. It's hard to tell, so I guess you've just got to ask.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, and I think, like, that's the mistake that people make when coding emotions is they think that they have to rely completely on their own reading. No, if you see an expression, you don't know what it means. Be like, hey, all good? Are you good? Wanna tell me anything? Like, asking for clarity. No matter what the emotion is, whether it's good or bad is always good. A little trick I also use. If you want to calm someone down and you're not sure what's bothering them, name an emotion you think it is and have them correct you. So I will often use the word upset because people will almost always correct you. So I'll say, are you upset? No, I'm not upset. I'm angry. Oh, good. Now we're at least on the same page. I know that you're angry.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that really works.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Well, sometimes that winds people up a little bit.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. But at least you hit the truth.

[Stephen Bartlett]

True. It does start the conversation.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And it gets you the truth of, like, what are they actually feeling? Okay, we did those ones. Contempt. Contempt and surprise, I believe, are last. So we'll do contempt last. Surprise is a very easy one. It's actually the longest of the micro expressions because we want to see it from far away. So. Right. We just, like, go as wide as possible. Surprise is not positive or negative. The most important thing about surprise is the difference between surprise and fear. Here's why. If I say to you, did you know about that email that was going to be sent out on Monday to the whole team? Surprise. I had no idea. Versus fear. I did know. So surprise versus fear is very important when you're trying to gauge, does someone know something or not know something? It works really well with kids and teenagers, too.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Cause they're bad at hiding it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're really bad at hiding it. And so if you're like, did you take my phone? Probably not. Or probably did. Right. Like, you know, I think. Did I tell you my favorite one with kids is Also nodding. Nodding cues work really well with kids and partners. But you didn't hear it from me. Where if when we nod yes in this culture, it means yes, when you nod no, it means no horizontally. With a kid you can often be like, do you want to go to the playground or do you want to stay here? Oftentimes they will pick the one that you associated with positive cues because they are reading your cues to figure out what the better choice is. So oftentimes with my kids, I'll be like, do you want to wear this shirt or do you want to wear that shirt? And I'll show discuss. And they're like, well, this one obviously. So you can also associate cues if you want to include encourage someone to make a choice. If you know that both choices are the same with kids, it works really well. Okay, the last one is contempt. Contempt is scorn. Disdain, pessimism. It's a mark of superiority and that's why it's so dangerous. When someone feels contemptuous, they're often feeling better than you or they know better than you or they think better than you. In marriages, it's particularly damaging. Dr. John Gottman found that when he observes silent videos of a couple, he can predict with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years. If one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other. That basically if you're in a relationship and someone is contemptuous of the other person, so they show a one sided mouth raise. Contempt is a one sided mouth raise or a smirk. Yeah, if they show that, it means they feel better than that person. And if that is not addressed, it festers and it grows into disrespect and hatred. So Gottman looks for contempt. Cause he knows if someone in the couple feels contemptuous of the other person, they feel better than that person. And that is not an equal marriage.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is that the only way that it comes out?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The, the smirk is the most reliable way that contempt can come out.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Measurably. Right. Like, what about the eye roll? You know, an eye roll can be sort of silly, but like I could like contempt, no matter the context is not good, right? Like if someone is like, I don't think so, you know, they feel better, then that's never a good thing. An eye roll, you could be like, ugh, you're being so silly. Right. So like contempt is the one expression where one, you don't want to accidentally show it in your profile picture. So never show an asymmetrical smile. And two, if someone is showing you contempt, you have some rapport building to work on now. You don't know what that contempt is. It could be about you. It could be about relationship. It even could be about self contempt, right? But you wanna immediately be like, what is going on? What are you feeling? What's going through your mind? What questions do you have for me to make sure you're addressing whatever the reason for that contempt is, so it doesn't fester.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It builds, though, doesn't it, with relationships? Do you think there's any turning back when you've built? Because people will think about the people they know in their lives and there'll be some relationships where they've kind of built up contempt over time. So the minute you see this person again, you're kind of on edge. You're probably already smirking, eye rolling, whatever.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The only way. The only way is shared experience. Talking more usually doesn't get it. Like, you can talk more. But if you have shared experiences where you're building oxytocin or you're building adrenaline, you're doing something new together, that scares you both a little bit. It creates all kinds of chemical connections and bonds. I think that's why sometimes when people go on, like a couples retreat or a big couples trip, it resets them. It really resets them chemically. If you are showing contempt, you might disrespect that person. You have to go into shared activities where you can build respect back.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Can we change? Can we? I guess this is a question that a lot of people. Well, it's quite foundational to learning from you and listening to you. Is this, like, deep belief that we can change who we are? Because so many of us think that we're kind of stuck in our personalities and that they are rigid and that they come from our trauma, our childhood, our genetics. But as it relates to, like, my personality, I guess, what is a personality and can I change my personality? Should I change my personality?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You can kind of change your personality. That's probably not the answer that you want, but they've actually researched this. And when you look at personality, it's composed of five main traits known as ocean openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism. Every person on the planet Earth has these five traits, and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium or low. These traits are somewhat heritable, somewhat genetic. So there is a portion of our genetics we cannot change. For example, personality traits are somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable, meaning some of it is Just literally our genes expressing themselves. But that still gives us quite a bit of wiggle room. What I like to focus on is, is if you are low on the spectrum in, let's say, neuroticism, which is how you worry. You cannot become low. You cannot become highly neurotic. It's too big of a swing. But you could probably dial up to medium if you wanted to. Or if you were high, you could probably dial down to medium. So you have, let's say, 30 to 40% potential for change. So if you wanna change your mindset, your goals, your personality, you have about 30 to 40%, I think, freedom to grow or change in a way that you want to if you're purposeful.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Can you give me the definition of those five?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay. So openness. Openness is how curious you are, how open to new experiences you are, how creative you are. Highly open people. And actually, I have your personality traits.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Uh. Oh.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Are you ready to look at them?

[Stephen Bartlett]

I am.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so you are highly open. The highest open you can be.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What does that mean?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Highly open means you love new things. You love trying new things, experimenting with new things. I think it's why you're willing to have new people in this setting is you like having new questions. Highly open people are extremely curious. Okay. The opposite is low open. Low open folks love habit, tradition, routine.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Jack just said I was a control freak, though.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Control is not about openness. Okay, Right. Like you're willing to move around the world, you're willing to meet a lot of new people. Low open people want everything to be the same. They don't want to travel, they don't want to experience new things. And the reason for this is actually they found that highly open people have a certain form of gene called DRD4, which means that when they experience something new, they get an extra load of dopamine. That is why extremely high open people are adrenaline junkies. They seek really new experiences all the time because they want that dopamine hit. They actually get more dopamine when they try new things. Low open people have less dopamine for new experiences. So they're like, why would I go travel when I have my perfect setup right Here they are. I think what's really important about personality is there is no bad, there is no wrong. We want diversity of personality because our high opens, they explore. They're the ones trying all the new things. Our low opens honor our traditions and our rituals.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So in terms of finding a partner.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, very important. If I were dating right now, I would probably make the dater take a personality test so we could see if we're matched. I would. Literally, I put up this test for free. So I have a personality test. It is up for free. I think every single person should take it. Know your own personality and also know your best friend's personality, your partner's personality.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What would you be looking for?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I know what ma what matches really well together. A high open and a low open are going to have trouble.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay, so someone who is spontaneous, wants to try new things, new experiences, versus someone who just wants to sit at home and do the same old things. Go to the same restaurant.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So let's talk about this very practically. I know very quickly. So yes, you can have hopefully have people take the test and then look at the results. Like you can actually screenshot it. And look. If you're not sure, ask someone. What do you usually do for lunch? A high open will be like, ugh, I love trying new places. The new thing, they always order the special. Every time a low open person wants to go to the same restaurant with the same waiter or to the same meal, and they would never try the special. Why risk it? Very different approach to the same thing. So in a relationship, every single meal, they're gonna have a problem. Like, it's really easy if you have the same level of approach to new experiences. Entrepreneurs as a leader. Leaders, very good leaders, are typically higher in openness. So it tracks for you that you're high and open because you're willing to try new things. You're willing to risk it for the biscuit. You're willing to say, okay, I'm gonna risk this new idea to see if it's gonna work.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I love risking it for the biscuit.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know. And that's cause you're driven towards more high dopamine. However, high open entrepreneurs have shiny object syndrome, where they are constantly chasing new ideas.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it doesn't always work.

[Stephen Bartlett]

No, not me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No. Okay.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I'm joking. Of course I'm joking.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Cause you do it right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that can be very distracting. So if you are working with a high open leader, you are probably extremely frustrated. They keep wanting to try new projects.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Do you think if I'm building a company, I should look for people that are equal in openness to me? Or should I look for counterbalances?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay. God, they're gonna frustrate me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They are gonna frustrate you, but they're gonna keep you in check. True, right? Like, you should never have your CFO as a high open person. True, that's so true.

[Stephen Bartlett]

That's so interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So like the best people. Diversity of hiring is so important in personality. The mistake, see in corporate, because I do personality trainings for corporate is managers hire their same personality and then they're all having the same problems. They can never have follow through. And that brings me to conscientiousness. Yeah, conscientiousness is where I think opposites attract. This is where I think that works. Conscientiousness is your approach to detail. So it's high conscious people love like I'm high conscientious. I love alphabetizing. I love color coding. Office supplies make me so happy. I love post it notes and files. I like purses with 15 different compartments. Am I losing you?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, you've lost me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, I've lost you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Cause you're medium open. I mean, sorry, you're medium conscientious.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I mean all the things you just described, I'm absolutely none of those things.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. Cause you're medium.

[Stephen Bartlett]

But I like detail in work. Like, I like work to be great and like us to care about details. But I'm not organized in the way that you described.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. And also you're not doing all the details. You have a team doing the really difficult details of the research or the editing because you can do it, but you're not super, super conscientious. I'm super, super high conscientious. So I love the details. I have a color coded calendar for my family, for example. I'm the only one who looks at it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I wish I was more like that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So highly successful people typically are more conscientious. And this is what we have to remember is they've studied this. Two low conscientious people in a marriage have more financial problems.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So unfortunately, this is one where high conscientiousness can help you a lot in marriage, with finances in business. But medium is okay. So if you're low, you can work on dialing up your conscientiousness with tools, with training, with habits books. That's why habits books are always on the bestseller list, is because all the low conscientious and medium conscientious people in the world know, ooh, if I want to be successful, I just have to get more habits. By the way, on the first date with Ashley and Kendrick, Ashley said that she had a spreadsheet for how she spends her days. And he was like, whoa, a spreadsheet? And she showed in that answer that she was super High conscientious. That is really good to know when a new relationship is someone's high or low conscientious. A high conscientious person, they will never be late, but they get very mad if you're late. So it's really good to know the conscientiousness of your team and of your partner so you can better predict their behavior.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is there an element of neurodivergence here as well? Cause I'm thinking if someone has ADHD or.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, I think that they're actively studying this now. I think neurodivergence, neurodiversity. There is personality trends with that. I don't know exactly what they are yet, but I know that they're looking at. How does the neurodivergent community deal with conscientiousness or openness? I know that also, for example, neurodivergent folks have a different chemical response to even eye contact. So like, I talk about eye contact a lot, but I have to be very aware for my neurodivergent community. Eye contact is harder for them. And that is because when they're connecting, they wanna be processing and thinking. So it's much harder, more distracting for them if they're making ey contact. So there's a lot of ways in which they are having a different response to an interaction or a connection. Okay, Extraversion. So this is the one that. This is the cool kid, I call it the cool kid of personality, is that everyone talks about extroverts and introverts, but actually ambiverts are much more interesting to me. And most people are ambiverts. They fall somewhere in between extrovert and introvert. Introverts get energy from being alone. Extroverts get energy from being with others. Ambiverts can dial up into extroverted energy, but they need a lot of recharge time. Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview, right? Like, I knew that it was gonna be a lot of intense, like interaction time. So I wanted like a lot of flat laying in bedtime. Cause I'm ambivert leaning towards introvert. I get energy from the right people, but I can't do a lot of socializing.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Are you like this off camera? Like, if I asked your husband what you're like when. If I said to your husband, do an impression of Vanessa, show me what that impression would look like.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Vanessa at home, it would be this but weirder. Like I'm like a weird person at home, but it would be Totally like this, but bigger. Cause at home I'm really comfortable. Like, I'm a silly mom. Like, with my girls. Like, I'm dressing like a dinosaur. I'm doing dance routines. Like, I'm very silly at home. He would probably say bigger if you were to ask him.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Bigger?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, like more animated than I am.

[Stephen Bartlett]

More animated.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. Do you think I'm that animated?

[Stephen Bartlett]

I thought you were pretty animated.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. I'm even more animated. Probably at home.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Really?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Cause I'm even more comfortable.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm putting on plays with my girls. I'll do the whole frozen soundtrack. I wouldn't do that for you here, but at home I would.

[Stephen Bartlett]

How many episodes we gotta do before you do the frozen soundtrack?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A billion.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No one will be with us if we do a billion episodes. Okay. So extroversion is important. Now. This happened on the date as well is he said, I'm a super extrovert. And she said, oh, I don't go out that much. This can also be an issue in a relationship. If someone is super extroverted, they need lots, lots of people time versus someone who is very introverted. They don't want the people time. That is constant tension in a relationship. You also have roles in a company where I'll notice that people will hire for a role where the role requires extroverting. For example, if you're in sales, you cannot be introverted. It's very hard to be introverted because you're having a cold call. You'll have to schmooze and build rapport. You have to enjoy those networking events. So it's important to factor in what is the ideal personality for this role. So, for example, I have roles in my company where I actually don't want an extrovert. Like, I don't want to chit chat. I don't want you socializing. Like, I want you to be super high, conscientious, and really direct. We've had this where I've had a role where I had to let someone go because she wanted to chat too much. And I was like, I can't. I can't chat. I don't have capacity to chat. I just like, let's work right side by side, but don't talk to me. Kind of not really. Do you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Where like, I knew that our team wasn't extroverted enough for her. And so you want to really be careful about hiring a role for your personality. So extroverts okay.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, by the way, the best leaders are high extroverts. They found this.

[Stephen Bartlett]

High extroverts.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What am I?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're middle.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Two stars out of three.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, middle.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Middle makes sense.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, I think that if you were out schmoozing more, it might help your business, but might not. Might be distracting to you. But that's what the research says.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I think if I was more extroverted, I'd be a better leader. I think my business would be more successful. Cause I think you'd find it easier to form new relationships and, you know.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And we could dial that up for you, but you couldn't completely change. Right. Like, we could dial up your extraversion, but it would take a lot of energy. That's the thing, is we can change anything we want, but you probably can only change it 30 to 40%. It's gonna take a lot of energy. And yet the question is, do you wanna do that? Okay. Agreeableness. Agreeableness is the hardest one to get. The agreeableness is your approach to teamwork. Highly agreeable people want everyone to like them and typically say yes to everything. They're agreeable. So the problem with agreeable people on a team is you ask them for something and they're like, oh, sure, yes, I know there's people, but they shouldn't say yes. And that is because they so want to be liked and they so struggle with people pleasing and boundaries. They don't have enough value in their own boundaries. They say yes to anything, but then they can't really do it. You have to be careful with a highly agreeable person because they often over commit.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, I tend to find someone that's very agreeable. They especially in the context of business where you're trying to figure out what the correct answer is. So you have a problem and you're trying to parse out what the correct answer is. You never end up going to them because they will say either what they think you want to hear, or they'll just take whatever your idea was. You never get good feedback from an agreeable person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You never get honesty.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Because they can't. I have trouble with highly agreeable people as friends. And that's because they'll often. I'll be like, hey, do you want to go to this concert in two weeks? Oh, yeah. And they cancel me last minute, always. Because in their minds, like, maybe, but probably not, but they're afraid to tell me.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You don't want your CFO to be agreeable?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No. Now let's Talk about low agreeableness. Low agreeableness. Those folks default to no. They are highly skeptical. They don't usually want. They will not do something for getting along. And because they default to no, they typically can be dream killers.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So if you're in a pitch or a presentation, they're like, nah, it'll never work. Nah, that'll never work. Or, you know, you're with a highly. A low agreeable person. If they Google fact check everything you say. Now, you have to know when to leverage them. I know when to leverage my low agreeable people. I know when I want to go to them. My husband can be very low agreeable. In fact, leaders are often low agreeable because they can't say yes to everything. They have to be willing to say no. They have to be willing to have people be angry at them. So I know when I go to my husband for an idea, I have to be ready, ready for the dream killing because he's going to be hard on me. And that's good. The last one, my favorite neuroticism. Neuroticism is how you approach worry. So you're medium. A high neurotic is a worrier. This is me. High neurotics believe that worrying is an investment in failure prevention. Yeah, we worry to protect ourselves. And here's what's really important to know. Low neurotics are very emotionally stable. They usually don't worry. They say things like, don't worry about it or it'll all work out. They do that because they actually have a different chemical response to negative events. What they found is that high neurotics, like me, we carry the short form of the serotonin transporter gene. Serotonin makes us feel calm. It makes us feel like everything's gonna be okay. High neurotics, we produce less serotonin, more slowly. So if something bad happens to me, let's say I get a bad email, my adrenaline shoots up, my cortisol shoots up, I begin to worry. My body is slow to respond with the serotonin that will say, it's okay, it'll be okay. So I literally have a negative response for longer. That is why we worry. High neurotics chemically feel things worse than low neurotics. So in a relationship, low neurotics are like, why are you worrying about this? You can't do anything about it anyway. And the high neurotic is like, because if it happens, it will feel very bad. And my serotonin hasn't kicked in yet. Yet. So my husband is low neurotic. I'm high neurotic. This is a great match.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is there a gender stereotype here?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So women are typically higher in neuroticism and higher in agreeableness. So they've actually studied the difference between genders. Women are higher in neuroticism and agreeableness than men. Men are also typically higher in extraversion.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So women are typically higher in worrying.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

People and people pleasing.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And men are typically lower in worrying and less likely to care about people.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

People pleasing and more extroverted by nature. Typically.

[Stephen Bartlett]

We take our time when it comes to hiring at Flight Story, because I fundamentally believe the success of a business is directly linked to how good you are at hiring. And better hiring starts with smarter insights. LinkedIn, who's a sponsor of this podcast, has some of the strongest hiring data available to help you identify the best candidates for your business. Their platform will even pair you with those who match what you're looking for, which might lie outside of the job description and more in their unique skills and interests. Because these days, hiring isn't just about finding the most qualified person, but also finding the one whose experience, abilities, and interests align with your company's mission. And it goes beyond candidates who are applying for jobs, too. In any given week, 171 million members who aren't actively seeking jobs are open to new opportunities. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn and start today by posting your job for free just by visiting LinkedIn.com doac so if I'm sat listening to this conversation right now and I'm sat next to somebody and I'm like, I think they might be a narcissist.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh no.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And I'll turn to them now. So if you're sat next to someone who thinks a narcissist, just turn to them and say, hey, we should do this personality test on Vanessa's website. What score on the personality test would I be looking for to spot a narcissist?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, goodness, what would it look like? So narcissists tend to be higher in extraversion. They typically I love to be around people because it feeds their narcissism. Again, that does not mean that all extroverts are narcissists. I don't know about conscientiousness. I don't know if that correlates. Typically, narcissists are lower in agreeableness because they believe in themselves so much that they don't. They're like, I don't need people to agree with me. I'm totally great by Myself. Typically, they are lower in neuroticism because they don't worry. They're like, everyone likes me. I'm so great. Why should I be worried? And I don't know about openness. So luckily, whatever their answer is, you don't have to be too worried. But you do want to have a conversation that goes like this. I see that you're really low in neuroticism, which means you don't worry about things. When has that served you? And when has that not served you? The most important thing about personality is first, analyzing yourself, knowing where you fall. Second is analyzing someone else. How do they fit with you? And the last step is, do you optimize or compromise? A narcissist will not compromise with you. So you'll find out if they're a narcissist if, as you talk about the compromises, they won't. When they talk about how they're neurotic, they never had a problem with it. Oh, their agreeableness. It's always been great. Oh, their extraversion. They're perfect. Their conscientiousness. They do everything right. They've never made a mistake. Their openness. Their way is the better way. A narcissist typically believes their personality traits are perfect. Typically. So it's actually not their score, it's how they relate to the score that should be a red flag.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And you said at the start of the conversation, certain personality traits correlate with longevity.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, they've studied this. So you want to guess which personality traits last live the longest?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Well, I'd say if you're high conscientious, then you're going to live pretty long. Number one, because you're not going to take many risks, you're not going to fuck up.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But there's a close second. So high contentious people are very good at habits. Exercising, brushing teeth, taking their medication. And there's one more that correlates to longevity.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I'm gonna say high extrovert because you make more friends.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You have a partner.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. So if you are a high extrovert, you have a support system. You invest in your support system and you're getting a constant dose of oxytocin and serotonin, which makes you feel so good, which makes you feel belonging, which means you seek out people when needed, help. Do you want advice?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Extroverts live longer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, extroverts and high conscious people live longer. You want to know who lives the shortest? Can you guess?

[Stephen Bartlett]

You tell me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The people who live the shortest who have the lowest lifespan are high neurotics. We worry ourselves to death. We have more chronic stress, more anxiety, and more depression. So neurotics have an issue, and this is me. We have a problem with our serotonin. Serotonin is very complicated. There's doing a lot of research on this. If I don't produce as much serotonin and I produce it more slowly, I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room. Like if I'm in a car and we almost get in a car accident and I'm the high neurotic, that affects me all day long, I'm like jittery and jumpy all day. And people earlier are like, what are you talking about? We didn't even get an accident. It's because their serotonin kicked in right away, began producing. They're like, oh, we're good. Whereas mine is like a slow, faltering car.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's like, I know people like that. I feel sorry for them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly. And they don't live as long. So I am working very, very hard in my life to one, dial up my extraversion, to have a really strong support system, because I know that supports me both mentally and longevity wise. But I'm also working on how to curb my neuroticism to dial down my worry, to know that it's not an investment in worry prevention. Worrying more does not prevent bad things from happening. But having resilience does.

[Stephen Bartlett]

What about optimism and pessimism?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, optimism is not a part of the personality spectrum. However, high neurotics tend to be more pessimistic. Okay, so they go, right? So the more you worry, the more you think bad things will happen.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Did you hear about that study? A study in 2015 where they looked at the blood test results of extroverts found that they had stronger immune responses than introverts.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Mm. Doesn't that make so much sense? So extroverts, there's a lot of things happening for extroverts. One is they're exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems. So they're getting more antibodies by exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems. But two, when they're with people, they're happier. If you're an introvert and you're with someone and you're unhappy and stressed, your cortisol is up, your adrenaline is up, you're not having as good of a time. Whereas an extrovert is getting all this energy, getting all this dopamine, which is fueling them, which is making them Feel better, which is makes them stronger.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I was reading about something a couple of years ago as well that showed that if you have stronger social connections, it's like an insulator of stress.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

So that if you're lonely and you experience stress, you physiologically feel it worse.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's stress insurance.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like investing in your friendships. The reason why I talk about it so much, it is stress insurance. And by the way, lifelong singles, they can predict lifelong singles. So lifelong singles, typically low in openness, which means they don't want to try new things. They don't want to go to new places, they don't want to go to new restaurants, they won't go out and meet new people because they're low in openness, low in extroversion. So they don't get energy from being around people, and they're low in conscientiousness. They can't even plan it. That is the trifecta of you're going to have a hard time meeting your friends, meeting your people, because you don't get energy from people. You're not open to meeting new people, and you cannot have follow through with trying to get the habit to get those new people. This episode is really important for those people because it means a, you're not alone. There's other people who have this. 2. It could be your genetics at work. I think that sometimes people get, like, down on themselves for it. I'm like, look, it could be how you're wired. You're not set up right to be getting energy from people. Okay? We have to work on that. That means we have to find the right people in the right situation. So if I have that person, I have a lot of lifelong singles who are my students. I say, okay, we can do this, we can do this. Okay, you don't get energy from people. You're a low extrovert. Where do you get energy? Knitting. Okay. Books. Great. Hiking, Great. Extreme sports, great. That's where I want you to hang out. I want you to get energy from the activity, not the people. So that way you're getting all this good stuff from the activity. Meeting people becomes a side effect. And it's easier to be extroverted, to fight with that extroversion, because you're like, oh, they're doing the same activity. And you don't even have to be high, open, because if you love that extreme sport, go to the same place every week at the same time, but do it all over the city. That way, the first time is gonna be hard, but it's a Ritual, It's a habit. And then whoever is coming in new, that's your app. That's the already gain people. So there's ways to do this. You just have to invest a little bit in it. I truly believe that lifelong singles can find their person. They just have to be looking in the right way.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Is it important for me to know someone else's personality type when I meet them?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

When you first meet them, you don't have to know their personality right away. However, they've found that you can tell many of the personality traits from a handshake. From a handshake. So, like, if we handshake.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I'm, like, overthinking it now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

He didn't shake my head.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I was, like, overthinking it. Cause I was gonna do.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What were you gonna do? Don't do anything crazy.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Okay? Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, pretend that we just met. Just pretend. Pretend. Oh, it's so good to meet you. Okay. So extroverts shake firmer.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I usually do this as well, so.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Sometimes I do this very good. And that's typically a mark of extroversion. So, like, that speaks to, like, a little bit higher on the scale. We toll up from a handshake of the firmness, of the length, of the amount of pumps that happen. All of those things are informing that sort of, like our brains, like, figuring out someone's personality so you can actually pay attention to what your instinct is. That's probably right. They've even found the weirdest. This is like, the weirdest. They did a study where they observed people shaking hands, and they filmed them and found that in that minute, after shaking hands, almost everyone touched their nose or their face. And they found that their nasal dilation increased meaning. When we shake someone's hand, we're kind of smelling their hand. Like, I smell you. It's so weird. It's so weird. But that's what we're doing is. Cause we're sussing out something about their personality. So there's a lot, I think, under the surface that we don't even realize is happening. Like, I swear that when I shake a nervous person's hand and I smell my hand, I get a little bit nervous.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Really?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. I don't like to be around nervous people because they, like, trigger my own nervousness.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Weirdest thing ever.

[Stephen Bartlett]

That's a really interesting thing. Like, you get a vibe off people when you meet them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The vibe is real.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah, it's so real, isn't it?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's that first impression. That vibe is so real. Yes. That's why I encourage people to not go to places where they're uncomfortable, because people will pick up on that vibe. Like, go places where you thrive. Like, go to the activities, do the things that you actually like, because that's gonna come across. It's gonna affect your vibe.

[Stephen Bartlett]

This is so true. I did something the other night, actually, with the team. Do you remember that thing we did the other night? I probably shouldn't say it, but I went to a place which I'm, like, really uncomfortable in.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, why'd you do that?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Because they told me I had to go, Chad.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But you didn't like it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

I hated every minute of it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. Your vibe was for sure off.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And I looked at myself in the photos after. I was like, fucking hell. You're having a terrible time. You really don't want to be here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You cannot hide it. It's like. It's like my little thing. You're, like, terrified. You were probably really afraid. So I think that energy curation is important here. Yeah.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's so important. You can't fake it very easily, can you? When you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I don't think we should try to fake it. Right. Like, I would much rather you set yourself up for success than say no to the things that don't work for you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And there's one way that I kind of understand what I think about a person is my vibe. Because it's so interesting doing this podcast. I've met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and within the first five seconds, I can feel them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

And I don't know how to explain it other than it's almost funny. Cause I sit in my little room doing my research, and then I'll come out. I walk around the corner, and within, like, three to five seconds, I know whether we're good to go and we're ready and we're calm, or if there's something off.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That is real. There's something off that is real. So when you feel that anywhere on a date with someone you're hiring on a team, you should trust that feeling, because it is something that we cannot. We have not explained with science yet. It's pheromones. It's the shape of your face. It's the feeling of your hand and mind. It's. There is something happening chemically, physically, and you should trust it. Like, have you ever been led astray from that?

[Stephen Bartlett]

Hmm. We have a closing tradition, as you know, on this podcast, where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is what are you doing on a daily basis to improve the life of someone else? And how can you serve others better?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Hmm. This is weird. Of course. Of course it is. I knew I wanted to write books. I actually think of myself as a writer. Like I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer. When I started to be a writer in 2007, social media did not exist. Your job as a writer back then was to write books. And maybe if you were lucky, you had a three month book tour. To be totally honest with you, I did not know I was signing up for this. I didn't. I did not. If you had told me that being a writer would mean sharing videos of my home and my personal life every day, I probably wouldn't have done it. I don't love that part of my job, to be honest with you. And so I know, though, that I have to share on video every day. Every day. Right. To be able to get people to read my books.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Which part of it don't you like?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

All of it. I mean, all of it.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Which part do you ate the most?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Trying to synthesize something very complicated into 60 seconds? I don't like it. I think communication is very complex, but I know it's essential to boil down a tip into a hook and then a framework, and I don't love that. And so when my career started to change, like I was writing books, and then it was like, oh, it's, you know, 20% of your job is marketing now. 30% of your job is marketing now. 50% of your job is marketing now. Writing books is six months of writing and the rest of your life is marketing. I did not sign up for that. So I get up every day and I post videos on my stories and on my social media. And I do that to serve. I do not do that because I like it. And if I could skip it, I would, but I can't. And it's how I'm able to write books. And so that is how I serve.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Vanessa, you are an extremely rare force in this art form.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thank you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You really are. I love to. It's so funny on the podcast when I love having. I love the conversation I have with somebody and I walk away with it feeling like I need to watch it back again and take notes because there's so many new concepts that feel so valuable to me. But then to see the way that the world reacted to you, oh, my.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Gosh, it Was incredible.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It was unbelievable. It was insane.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I feel like I met, like, 8 million new best friends. That's kind of what it felt like. I mean, as of now, I think the video's like, 8 million. I don't even. That doesn't even count audio.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's the most downloaded audio episode we've ever had of all time. So it means that's probably another 6 or 7 million people or something.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it really did feel like I found my people. Like, I felt like, literally, it was like finding 8 million new friends where I met 8 million recovering, awkward, trying to connect, trying to figure it out. People who are, like, learners, and we were just flooded with love. And it re energized everything that I do because I was like, I have got to help everyone. Like, I have got to be more helpful. And so, like, it was just such a gift. Like, thank you for giving me the space and asking the questions, because I just have met the most amazing people.

[Stephen Bartlett]

You deserve it. Oh, it's a special gift.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thanks.

[Stephen Bartlett]

It's blown my mind how desperate and hungry people are for this information. Vanessa, thank you so much for being here again. I really appreciate you and thank you for the. You had a profound impact on our show. You brought millions of new people to our show that had never listened before. So we owe you tremendously, and thank you for what you're doing. You're a very unique person. You have all the right balance of wisdom, articulation. You're challenging, but in the best possible way. And you're weird, and you know you are, and you own it, which makes it admirable, endearing, and a force for change, because so many other people out there are struggling to step into their own sort of weird, authentic selves. Vanessa, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. It's wonderful to see you again.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thank you.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Thank you. From the gazillions of people that stopped me in the streets and in the gyms and everywhere I went and sent me messages and just, like, overwhelmed me with this wave of appreciation because of that episode and shared it with their friends like crazy. Thank you on behalf of all of them, too. Please keep doing what you're doing. Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I will.

[Stephen Bartlett]

Thank you. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? With? Every single guest on the diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary, and it's a question designed to challenge, to connect, and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand. On one side you've got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it, and on the other side if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it. 51 questions split across three different levels. The warm up level, the open up level, and the deep level. So you decide how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms, at work, in bedrooms, alone, at night and on first dates, and everywhere in between. I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below, and you can get [e-mail] oh.