CEO Diaries: Bozoma Saint John on Growing Through Grief & Leading with Purpose

Summary

CEO Diaries: Bozoma Saint John on Growing Through Grief & Leading with Purpose

In this compelling episode of The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett, host Steven Bartlett engages in a profound conversation with Bozoma Saint John, one of the most iconic brand builders of our time. Bozoma shares her remarkable journey through personal tragedies and career milestones, offering invaluable insights into leadership, marketing, and personal growth.

Finding Destiny and Career Path

Bozoma reflects on her serendipitous career trajectory, emphasizing that destiny often finds us when we remain open to unexpected opportunities. She recounts her move to New York, initially an attempt to escape her perceived destiny of pursuing medicine.

Bozoma Saint John [02:36]: "I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead."

Her initial encounter with Spike Lee's advertising agency on Madison Avenue marked her first significant career move, setting the stage for a series of impactful roles in major companies.

Letting Go and Self-Prioritization

Bozoma delves into the philosophy of "letting go," distinguishing it from passive surrender. She explains that letting go involves actively releasing preconceived notions to allow new opportunities to emerge.

Bozoma Saint John [03:10]: "The letting go is an action. It's not surrender. It's like you just lay down and it's gonna find you."

This approach has been a recurring theme in her career, allowing her to transition seamlessly between high-profile positions without wasting time or energy on unfulfilling roles.

Coping with Personal Tragedies through Career

Bozoma shares how personal losses, particularly the death of her partner Peter, have instilled a sense of urgency in her life. This urgency translates into a focused and purposeful approach to her career.

Bozoma Saint John [07:05]: "I think especially Peter's death made me impatient. Impatience is the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life."

This personal tragedy has propelled her to live authentically, ensuring that her career aligns with her true self and passions.

Quitting vs. Persevering in Career

Addressing the stigma around quitting, Bozoma emphasizes the importance of prioritizing one's happiness and well-being over societal expectations.

Bozoma Saint John [08:24]: "I am selfish, very much so. But that is not a bad thing. I am at the center of my life."

She argues that leaving situations that no longer serve you is not a sign of weakness but a crucial step towards personal fulfillment and professional excellence.

Handling Career Transitions and Safety Mask Analogy

Bozoma likens career transitions to the safety instructions on an airplane: "put your mask on first before helping others." This analogy underscores the necessity of self-care as a foundation for effective leadership.

Bozoma Saint John [09:16]: "Save yourself first. It's like, get your mask on before helping others."

This perspective has guided her through numerous high-stakes roles, including her time at Uber, where she focused on rebuilding trust and brand integrity.

Advice to Younger Self and Future Leaders

Bozoma offers heartfelt advice to her daughter and aspiring leaders: prioritize yourself and follow your intuition. She stresses that there is no one-size-fits-all path to success.

Bozoma Saint John [15:12]: "If somebody tells you, do these steps in order to get to where I've got, they're lying to you."

Her counsel encourages individuals to listen to their inner voice and pursue what genuinely resonates with them, rather than conforming to external expectations.

Skills and Strengths in Marketing

Bozoma identifies her unique ability to "see the forest" as a key strength in marketing. This holistic perspective allows her to address underlying issues rather than superficial problems.

Bozoma Saint John [11:30]: "I can see the forest. I can see the whole thing."

This skill was pivotal during her tenure at Uber, where she tackled complex challenges by understanding the broader implications of trust and brand perception.

Importance of Storytelling and Curiosity in Marketing

A great marketer, according to Bozoma, is a master storyteller who can connect deeply with people. She emphasizes that curiosity about human behavior and motivations is essential for effective marketing.

Bozoma Saint John [14:16]: "Be more curious about people. Ask a lot of questions about people. Why do they do the things they do?"

This relentless curiosity drives her ability to create authentic and impactful marketing strategies that resonate on a personal level.

Parting Words to Aspiring Leaders

Bozoma concludes with empowering advice for those aiming to emulate her career success. She encourages self-discovery and authenticity as the true pathways to leadership.

Bozoma Saint John [15:16]: "Get to know yourself better. That's it."

Her message serves as a guiding principle for aspiring leaders to build careers that are not only successful but also meaningful and true to their essence.

Final Thoughts

Bozoma Saint John's narrative is a testament to the power of resilience, self-awareness, and authentic leadership. Her insights offer a roadmap for navigating the complexities of career growth and personal fulfillment. This episode stands out as a profound exploration of leading with purpose amid life's inevitable challenges.

Transcript

[Bosma St. John]

This is the way it feels to.

[Host]

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[Bosma St. John]

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[Host]

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[Bosma St. John]

Flexibility of the new Lululemon Align no line pant in select stores [e-mail].

[Host]

In today's Moments episode, we're featuring one of the most iconic brand builders of all time. The former CMO of Netflix and Chief Brand Officer of Uber Bosma St. John. Bosmer's perspective on marketing is fresh because it's not just about algorithms or trends. It's about something far more powerful. It's about curiosity. Curiosity about people. Why they choose, what they choose, what moves them, what scares them, and what makes them say yes. In B2B marketing, just like in life, we're not talking to businesses, we're talking to people. So if you want to understand the real edge behind influential marketing, this is the moment to listen in. Your first sort of real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

So for people that don't know, who is Spike Lee? Okay, and how did that happen?

[Bosma St. John]

Spike Lee is blackity. Blackity black. First of all. All the blackness. No, but he, he is a film director. Really at his core. Filmmaker. Let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes. But he has a. An advertising agency in New York. When I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. So Madison Avenue is like the place for advertising in the world. Right. It's the place where the show Mad Men was made from. So DDB is one of the biggest agencies, and Spike had a JV with them.

[Host]

What brought you to New York in the first place?

[Bosma St. John]

Curiosity. I was. I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Milton, Connecticut, and it was just time to apply to med school, and I really didn't want to. And New York was right there. It was like an hour and a half from school. And I really didn't have a plan. I just went trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. And like many people say, I think sometimes in this business I kind of fell into this. But I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.

[Host]

So many people are in. In that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to help, trying to figure out a way to let their destiny find them.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be. And you think about that first moment where you, you know, you went to New York and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee, and you find. You find your destiny or it finds you. If your. If your daughter comes to you and says, mum, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny? Like, what have I got to do to actively bring it about?

[Bosma St. John]

Have you ever heard that statement, like, let go and let God?

[Host]

No.

[Bosma St. John]

Have you heard that before?

[Host]

No.

[Bosma St. John]

It's a very Christian thing. I feel like in the, like, black church, there's a lot of that, let go and let God. You know, as if God is just gonna just sprinkle magic dust over you, you know? And I'm like, no, I don't necessarily believe that. Just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. You know, it's not surrender. It's like you just lay down and it's gonna find you. You're not gonna find your destiny sitting on the couch. You know, the letting go for me is like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do. Letting go of sometimes you're like trying to do something and keep hitting a wall. You ain't just like, oh, if I just hit it one more time, it's gonna break. Sometimes it's like, you know that's a cement wall, right? If you just move five feet to the right, it's actually plaster and you're gonna go right through it. You know, it's like sometimes just the letting go of this thought that you had, which is like, oh, I'm going to do this thing right here is the magic. And I'll tell you this, look, it didn't just happen at that stage of my life. It's happening right now where, you know, I'm like, okay, well, I think I am done with my corporate CMO work. I believe I'm finished. So I'm going to let go. Let go of it. I'm not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job. I want whatever is coming for me to come. I'm gonna allow space for it now. It doesn't mean I'm just sitting around. I'm also, you know, trying to polish other skills. I'm trying to create, you know, because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space. I can feel it, like in my spirit and that understanding of, like, your intuition and if you're listening to it, it's like a magnet. It's going to just draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do. And it has happened every single time. Like, every time without fail. Like, every job, every move I've made hasn't been because somebody said, oh, you know what? This makes logical sense. One plus one equals two. Sometimes I'm just like. But it's not math, though, you know, it's physics. It's not the addition, it's the subtraction. I'm just going to sit here and I'm going to get up and I'm going to go talk to this person, and I'm going to talk to that person. I'm going to sit back down again, and I'm going to write this thing out. And then, like magic, because I don't know how else to describe it. It's like the destiny appears, I'm telling you, every time it has happened. Every single time. Even when people were like, oh, that is never going to happen. Like, you're wasting your time. I don't know why you'd go over there and do that. I'm like, mmm, I don't know. Something. Something inside, I'm telling you, telling me that this is the way to go. I'm gonna go over there every time. It's worked.

[Host]

You worked at Endeavor, big company that owned, like, UFC and WWE, etc.

[Bosma St. John]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Host]

Beats Uber, Netflix, Apple. Apple.

[Bosma St. John]

Oh, yeah. All the things.

[Host]

It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause and for, you know, because you just seem to get right back at it all the time. I mean, that's what it appears when you look at the chronological nature of these events.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

How have all of these personal tragedies fed into your career? And what role has your career continued to play in dealing with these personal tragedies?

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah. Well, I think especially Peter's death made me impatient. Impatience is the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life.

[Host]

Urgent.

[Bosma St. John]

Yes, urgent for sure. The urgent life. Because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or in my energy.

[Host]

Well, I look at your story and I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, and this kind of brings on another point because there's contradictory career advice. Often we get. It says, you know, you should stay somewhere long enough because if you leave too quickly, then people are going to look at your resume and think, why were you only there for two years? Or why were you there for a little while, but then if you know. So, like, where do you sit on this and when to know to quit? And also, there's this overarching phrase which is like, quitting is for losers.

[Bosma St. John]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ooh. Gosh. Well, look, I get criticism of that all the time, where people are just like, oh, well, she can't handle adversity. And I'm like, me? Are you out of your mind? It's like, if there was a poster child, it would be me. It would be me. You know, it's not that I can't handle adversity. I just put myself first.

[Host]

Are you selfish?

[Bosma St. John]

Yes, very much so. But that is not a bad thing. I am at the center of my life. No one is above me in my life. No one. Not even my kid. And she knows that, and I try to instill the same in her. No one should be above her in her life. Because the thing is that, like, look, the life that you're living is yours. And I cannot be a great contributor to society. And this sounds a little, like, counterintuitive, but I can't be a great contributor to society. I can't be a good friend. I can't even be a good mom if I am not living the life that I want to live, if I'm not wholly happy in it. So, absolutely, I'm selfish.

[Host]

When you left Uber, you're quoted as saying, you don't need to be the savior, I think when referencing the state of the company because it was going through a very tumultuous time. You can save yourself, too.

[Bosma St. John]

Yes. And save yourself first is what I should have said. You know, it's like, it's all of the ways in which we think about it now. Right. You get on a plane, they're going through the safety demonstration. They tell you to put your mask on first before you help anybody else. Yes. And in your life, too. Yes. Save yourself first.

[Host]

What was the career advice that you wish someone had given you? You know, like that young Spike Lee receptionist.

[Bosma St. John]

Be selfish in your life, in your career. Think about yourself all of the time.

[Host]

What does being selfish mean?

[Bosma St. John]

Meaning that when you're in a situation that doesn't serve you, you think of yourself first. Oftentimes we're in these situations that aren't serving us, and we're thinking about how the other person's gonna feel.

[Host]

But that means that I have to be. It's the uncertainty that that creates that scares people, Right? Like, well, I can. I've got this job, and I Quit it. Where am I gonna go? And, like, what am I gonna do if I leave this relationship? What am I gonna do? Where am I gonna go?

[Bosma St. John]

Well, but you should answer that. I'm not saying that you quit without the answer. I'm saying you quit. You know, it's like if you keep putting it off, if you keep saying, well, I don't know what I'm going to do, so I'm just going to. Then you're going to waste your life away. You're going to be so unhappy. You're going to have the Sunday scaries all the time. You're going to feel the ick when you're with that person. You are going to be unsatisfied with your life. And that is the scariest thing. I do not want to be on my deathbed being unsatisfied with the life that I lived. I could go tomorrow and I would be so satisfied with this life.

[Host]

Why?

[Bosma St. John]

Oh, because I've done the things I've wanted to do. Now, look, I have goals. It doesn't mean I don't have ambition. It's not like I don't want to do the next thing. I do want to go to Antarctica at some point. I have not been yet, you know, but if I went now, I've lived this life on my own terms. Like, there's nothing that I did where I feel like, oh, man, I should have made a different choice.

[Host]

What are you good at? Like, when you. When you do the diagnosis of your skill set and what brought you here because you've had these incredible, incredible, incredible career.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

But, you know, we're all bad at loads of stuff. And I think typically people are good at, like, a couple of things, but that's enough.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

What are you good at?

[Bosma St. John]

I'm good at seeing the forest, the whole picture. And sometimes in a forest, you know that, like, oh, you have to clear this area in order to make space for the little village, because then those villagers can take care of the rest of this part of the forest that is like burning. You know what I'm saying? But sometimes people are only down at the trees, and then they can't see the burning part, and they can't see that they should clear over there so that those people can get to the fire. I can see the forest. I can. I can see the whole thing. And I can see like, okay, this needs to move there. And this. It's helped me so much in my career, for sure. It's like the change maker.

[Host]

And how, how does that make You a great marketeer?

[Bosma St. John]

Because I never look at a problem just as the problem. You know, it's like when I got to Uber, the problem was that there was a huge campaign that was like, delete Uber. Right? People are like, oh, they're mad at the company because of lack of diversity in the C suite, and they treat women horribly and they're not paying drivers and, oh, it's unsafe even to get in the car. And I went in and it's like, if I had just tried to, like, go after one thing, it would have been whack a mole everywhere. I did, okay, pop this one down and this one pops up. You hit that one and that one pops up, but I can see the forest. I could say, ah. This is not an issue about whether or not Travis Kalanick hates women or hates black people. This is not about whether or not your driver is going to kidnap you. This is about trust. Do you trust the CEO of the company? Do you trust the driver when you get in the car? Do you trust anything about this whole situation? Self driving cars? You trust any of it? If you don't trust it, nothing I do is going to make you like the company. I could fix the issue of, like, hell, make half of the C suite people of color and women, and you would still be like, yeah, but they're gonna kidnap me.

[Host]

The best people you've encountered in marketing, what do they have in common?

[Bosma St. John]

They're great storytellers. They can make you believe anything. Those are great marketers, the ones who make you believe that you put on a pair of Nikes and Somehow you're now LeBron James.

[Host]

And how do they. What constitutes what makes a great story?

[Bosma St. John]

It's close enough to the truth for.

[Host]

You to believe it.

[Bosma St. John]

Yes.

[Host]

Well, when I put on any pair of shoes, I'm no LeBron James.

[Bosma St. John]

But you probably walk more confidently.

[Host]

It's true.

[Bosma St. John]

So Maybe you weren't LeBron, but you're a better version of yourself.

[Host]

If I. If I want to be a great marketer, and I'm currently not, what would you, you know, if Leo comes to you and she goes, mom, I want to work in marketing, what's the best. What do I need to do to become a great marketeer? What would you say to Leo?

[Bosma St. John]

Be more curious about people? Ask a lot of questions about people. Why do they do the things they do? Why they like the things and ask. Keep asking the questions. Like, you've got to be really curious about people in order to be a great marketer, because you can't Just rely on what you know and your experiences. Even though I do say that you should be a focus group of one, it's like, if you like the thing, maybe somebody else will like the thing. If it makes you laugh, maybe somebody else will laugh. If it makes you scared, somebody else is going to get scared. If somebody inspires somebody else to be inspired, I believe that. But you also have to, like, be really curious about why people choose the things that they choose, why they like the things that they like. If you're not curious about people, you're gonna suck at this job.

[Host]

What's the most important thing we've not talked about? And I really want to focus this a little bit more. There's going to be so many young people, not so young people that are listening to this conversation now. They look at your career and they go, I want to walk that path. You know, I want to get to. I want to be the CMO of. Yeah, the biggest companies in the world.

[Bosma St. John]

Yeah.

[Host]

CEO of this company. What's your parting words to those people?

[Bosma St. John]

Gosh, that's such a hard one. Because the thing is that there is no. There is no path. You know, if somebody tells you, like, do these steps in order to get to where I've got, they're lying to you. You're not going to get there based on the things I've done. The only way you're going to get there is by listening to yourself, is by following your intuition, is by doing the things that you're really good at and leave the rest of that stuff that you're not good at that other people are trying to advise you. Leave that alone. So if there's any advice, get to know yourself better. That's it.

[Host]

We often confuse aspiration with admiration. We can admire someone without aspiring to walk their path. And I think, yeah, I remember reading a poem one day about, like, the only great person you can be is the greatest version of yourself. It's super cliche, but it's unbelievably huge because I could not be Steve Jobs or Thomas Edison or Martin Luther King. It's not my great.

[Bosma St. John]

No, exactly. Don't try to be me ever.

[Host]

If this conversation today has challenged your assumptions in any way, that's probably a good thing, because that's where growth begins. And if you're ready to start reaching people in a way that actually connects, our sponsor, LinkedIn, is offering you a $100 ad credit. Head over to LinkedIn.com diary to get started. That's LinkedIn.com diary, the diary of a CEO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some ca? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.