The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

Episode: CIA Whistleblower: They Can See All Your Messages! I Was Under Surveillance In Pakistan!
Date: January 19, 2026
Guest: John Kiriakou (Ex-CIA officer, Whistleblower)

Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Steven Bartlett sits down with John Kiriakou—former CIA officer and whistleblower who exposed the CIA's illegal torture program. Kiriakou delves deep into the shadowy realities of international espionage, surveillance technology, ethical boundaries of the intelligence community, psychological tactics in recruitment, and the personal cost of blowing the whistle. He pulls back the curtain on a world most people never see, demystifying both the romanticism and the gritty truths of spycraft for listeners.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Surveillance, Privacy & "Vault 7" Revelations

• Surveillance Is Everywhere: Billions are spent on spying domestically and internationally; technology now allows remote control of cars, TVs, and devices for surveillance.
  • "The CIA can take control remotely of a car's computer system…take control of your smart TV and turn a speaker into a microphone, even though the TV is off." (John, 01:07)
• No Such Thing as Digital Security: Data, messages, and metadata are all accessible to intelligence services—privacy is effectively an illusion.
  • "Nothing is secret. Nothing...If they want to get you, they're going to get you." (John, 42:55)
• Vault 7 & WikiLeaks: Disgruntled CIA engineer leaked top-secret info, showing just how sophisticated and invasive surveillance capabilities are.
  • "The Vault 7 documents…they became what WikiLeaks called the Vault 7 documents." (John, 01:31; 49:17)

2. Life as a CIA Officer

• Career Path: From growing up in Pennsylvania, to Middle Eastern studies at GWU, to being secretly recruited by a CIA operative posing as a professor.
  • "I'm not really a professor here. I'm a CIA officer undercover...Would you like to be a spy?" (John, 19:33)
• Dual Roles: Analyst (briefing Presidents, writing top-secret reports) transformed to counterterrorism operative after 9/11, leading CIA operations in Pakistan.
• Recruitment & Operations: Asset acquisition cycle (“spot, assess, develop, recruit”); exploiting vulnerabilities and human motivation.

3. The Psychology of Spying & Human Nature

• Sociopathic Traits Valued: CIA actively favors those with 'sociopathic tendencies' for their ability to operate in morally gray areas.
  • "Most CEOs are sociopaths...The CIA wants people like that…those are the people who are going to break into a foreign embassy." (John, 27:44)
• Motivation of Spies: 95% do it for money; remainder for love, ideology, revenge, excitement.
  • "95% of the people who agree to become spies...do it for the money." (John, 29:24)
• Transferable Skills: Manipulation, lie detection, reading vulnerabilities—high divorce rates among spies due to the constant need for deception.

4. Ethics, Whistleblowing & the Cost

• On Exposing Torture: Kiriakou blew the whistle because he found CIA’s actions illegal, immoral, and ineffective—paid for it with prison time.
  • "I'm not remorseful. I'm not contrite. I would do it again. I would let them send me to prison again because it was the right thing to do." (John, 04:12)
• Government Overreach: Argues US now regularly violates its own laws; “we just do it if we want to.”
  • "We've gotten to the point...where if we want to do something, we just do it." (John, 97:35)

5. The Nature and Extent of Espionage

• Number of Spies: Estimated 50-60,000 undercover intelligence officers (US and foreign) operating in the United States.
  • "50 to 60,000 altogether." (John, 59:42)
• Sleeper Agents: Russians excel at planting deep-cover agents; story of an East German sleeper who defected after fatherhood.
  • "Taken virtually from birth...trained to be of another nationality..." (John, 53:01)
• Espionage in Business and Academia: Special focus on foreign espionage in defense industries and universities.

6. Spy Tactics & Anecdotes

• Operational Techniques: Asset development can include befriending, feigned romance, or even adopting false sexual orientations to win trust.
  • "Headquarters says, we want you to pretend that you’re gay. I said, oh, come on..." (John, 36:29)
• Use of Sex, Money & Coercion: Overt coercion (sextortion) usually not productive; relationships based on trust work better.
• Israeli Spycraft: Mossad described as most ruthless, cunning, and inventive—"no rules," history of assassinations and sophisticated technological operations (pager bombings, etc.).
  • "The Israelis have no rules. They'll kill anybody." (John, 75:54)

7. The Epstein Case & Access Agents

• Epstein as a Spy: Kiriakou asserts Epstein was an Israeli 'access agent,' with his wealth and social reach enabling intelligence gathering and kompromat (compromising materials).
  • "Jeffrey Epstein is kind of the stereotypical example...of an access agent." (John, 82:37)

8. Global Adversaries & The State of Affairs

• Real Adversaries: China seen as most significant—patient, strategically brilliant, adept at technological and academic espionage.
  • "The Chinese are so good at what they do and the Chinese are so patient." (John, 87:54)
• China’s Soft Power: Wins influence with infrastructure investment abroad instead of overt force.
• Assassinations & Kill Lists: US (notably under Obama) maintains regular assassination lists; Israel kills with impunity.
• Multipolar World & US Decline: Concern over unsustainable military budgets, China’s infrastructural rise, potential American decline.
  • "We can't keep up this pace. It's not possible...The Chinese are letting us spend ourselves into oblivion." (John, 96:01)

9. Personal Transformation & Life After the CIA

• Mental Health & Resilience: Stopped feeling sorry for himself, rebuilt a career in writing, broadcasting, and public speaking.
  • "I told myself, no more feeling sorry for myself. I was going to go make a career on my own." (John, 101:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Surveillance & Privacy

• "Nothing is secret. Nothing...If they really want to get you, they're going to get you." (John, 42:55)
• "Be careful what you say, be careful what you write, even in jest, because it can be taken out of context to target you." (John, 47:24)

On CIA Moral Philosophy

• "Most CEOs are sociopaths...The CIA wants people like that." (John, 27:44)
• "My sociopathic tendency was to operate in legal, moral, and ethical gray areas." (John, 28:11)

On Spy Motivation

• "95% of the people who agree to become spies for us do it for the money." (John, 29:24)

On Whistleblowing & Ethics

• "I'm not remorseful. I'm not contrite. I would do it again...because it was the right thing to do." (John, 04:12)
• "Either we're going to be the good guys or we're not." (John, 97:49)

On Israel’s Intelligence Services

• "The Israelis have no rules. They'll kill anybody." (John, 75:56)
• "If they want to kill you...they'll blow up the entire city block where you live. They'll kill a thousand people just to get you." (John, 77:22)

On Jeffrey Epstein

• "I believe very strongly he was a spy. Yes. The Israelis. I'm confident it was the Israelis." (John, 82:27)

On China

• "The Chinese will plan for something big 25 years down the road because they will still be in power then." (John, 88:13)
• "There are more Chinese PhD students in the hard sciences here in the United States than you can shake a stick at. They're everywhere...so you can spy for China." (John, 88:17)

On Mental Health & Moving On

• "No more feeling sorry for myself. I was going to go make a career on my own." (John, 101:48)
• "Don't feel sorry for yourself. Do something about it. Act." (John, 103:57)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:07 – Introduction to CIA surveillance & "Vault 7"
• 04:10 – Whistleblowing on torture and the consequences
• 05:13 – Transition to counterterrorism operations post-9/11
• 09:55 – Operational anecdote: Recruiting an Al Qaeda member in Pakistan
• 19:33 – Recruitment into the CIA, undercover professor story
• 27:44 – Sociopathic tendencies in the CIA and business
• 29:24 – Money as key motivator in espionage recruitment
• 36:29 – Assignment: Pretending to be gay to recruit an asset
• 42:55 – On the illusion of privacy in the digital age
• 49:17 – Vault 7 leaks and technology vulnerability
• 53:01 – Sleeper agents: How they’re raised and deployed
• 59:42 – Estimating the number of spies in the United States
• 75:54 – Israeli spy operations: "The Israelis have no rules."
• 82:27 – On Jeffrey Epstein being a spy and ‘access agents’
• 87:54 – China as primary adversary and their patient approach
• 97:35 – Erosion of legal/moral boundaries in US government actions
• 101:48 – Overcoming depression and rebuilding post-CIA life

Lessons & Cautions for Listeners

• Assume Nothing Is Secret: Your digital life can be accessed, analyzed, and potentially used against you. Practice extreme caution.
• Ethical Ambiguity Is Real: In government and business, boundaries are often blurry and driven by incentives, not ideals.
• Understand Human Leverage: Most "turncoats" (spies) are driven by mundane needs for money, safety, or belonging—not grand ideology.
• Influence Is Everywhere: Media, Hollywood, and even podcasts can be subtly (or directly) influenced by intelligence strategies.
• Don’t Be Naïve About World Events: Covert actions, manipulation, and international plots are more common—and more banal—than movies suggest.
• Personal Integrity Has a Price: Blowing the whistle on wrongdoing may cost you dearly—but it matters.

Final Reflection

John Kiriakou’s candid storytelling and decades of experience reveal a world where nothing is as it seems; where ethics, power, technology, and psychology intersect—and the truth is often only half the story. His advice for the everyday person is sobering but empowering: protect your privacy, question your assumptions, and live—and act—by your values.