The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

Episode Title: Discipline Expert: The Tiny Habit That Finally Makes You Lose Weight! The 2-Minute Trick!

Guest: James Clear (Author of Atomic Habits) Date: December 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This engaging episode explores the real science and practical strategies behind habit formation with James Clear, author of the internationally best-selling book, Atomic Habits. James and Steven dive deep into why making lasting change is so difficult, how to make new routines stick, and why the tiniest shifts in behavior can compound into extraordinary results. James shares actionable frameworks—including the “2-minute rule” and “habit stacking”—to make discipline effortless, break bad habits, and win the crucial “first five minutes” of any activity. The conversation also covers the psychology of identity transformation, the importance of systems over goals, and why having fun is a necessary ingredient for sustainable change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fundamentals of Habit Formation

• Four Stages of Habits (Cue, Craving, Response, Reward) [00:24, 83:59]

  • Cue: What catches your attention (e.g., plate of cookies).
  • Craving: The desire or prediction about the outcome (e.g., “That will taste good”).
  • Response: Actual behavior/action (e.g., taking a bite).
  • Reward: Satisfying the craving, reinforcing behavior.
  • Memorable Insight: “Pretty much every habit follows that cycle.” — James Clear [84:44]

• The Four Laws of Behavior Change [86:05]

  1. Make it Obvious (related to the cue)
  2. Make it Attractive (related to craving)
  3. Make it Easy (related to response)
  4. Make it Satisfying (related to reward)
  • Example: Keeping your guitar in the living room makes it obvious so you’re more likely to play.

• Habit Stacking [100:38]

  • Link a new habit onto something you already do.
  • Example: “After I make my morning coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds.” — James Clear [100:40]

• The Two-Minute Rule [12:22]

  • Scale the habit down to something you can do in two minutes or less.
  • “Read 30 books a year” becomes “read one page.” “Do yoga four days a week” becomes “take out the mat.”
  • On Resistance: “Why would I fall for such a mental trick?” “It’s not about results right away; it’s about becoming the kind of person who shows up.” — James Clear [13:00-14:24]

Starting Small, Mastering the Start

• The most important part is mastering the art of getting started.

  • “So much of it is about mastering the art of getting started. Probably 70% of what’s in Atomic Habits are different strategies that help you get started or make starting easier.” — James Clear [08:15]
  • Reduce the scope, stick to the schedule. [10:24]

• First Five Minutes Matter [11:42]

  • “If you can master that little moment of inconvenience or discomfort, you gain an edge… Everybody works out on the good days.” — James Clear

Systems vs. Goals

• Why Systems Beat Goals [22:44 & 24:49]

  • “A goal is about the outcome you want. A system is about the process for getting there... If there is ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your habits will win.” — James Clear [22:44]
  • “You don’t rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems.” — James Clear [24:44]
  • Winners and losers have the same goals; it’s systems (not goals) that create separation. [27:29]

• Building a Life Around Systems

  • “The person who wants the lifestyle is much better positioned to get the result.” — James Clear [25:27]

Identity and Social Influence

• Identity-Based Habits [44:11, 49:04]

  • “Every action you take is a vote for the person you wish to become.” — James Clear
  • “We start asking, ‘What do I want to achieve?’ but what we should be asking is, ‘Who do I wish to become?’” [44:11]
  • Adopting an identity (e.g., “I am a voter,” “I am a runner”) increases the likelihood of following through.

• Social Forces & Belonging [51:15, 52:20]

  • “The desire to belong overpowers the desire to improve... Join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior.” — James Clear [53:12]
  • Environment (both physical and social) exerts a subtle gravity; set yourself up to “belong” where your good habits are supported. [54:26]

Breaking Bad Habits

• Invert the Four Laws [93:40]
  1. Make it Invisible (hide cues)
  2. Make it Unattractive
  3. Make it Difficult (increase friction)
  4. Make it Unsatisfying (introduce immediate consequences)
  • “If you add just a little friction, habits mostly curtail themselves to the desired degree.” — James Clear [94:07]
  • “Behaviors that get immediately punished get avoided.” — James Clear [95:45]

The Power & Pitfalls of Consistency

• Consistency > Intensity [109:59]

  • “Intensity is a good story; consistency makes progress.” — James Clear
  • “Consistency is often adaptability. Adaptability is resilience.” [109:59, 111:09]

• Handling Setbacks and Failures [114:04]

  • “The secret to winning is actually learning how to lose. It’s knowing how to rebound and bounce back.” — James Clear [114:30]
  • “If the reclaiming of a habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn’t matter that much.”

Upstream Habits and Reflection

• Focus on Habits that Unlock Other Good Behaviors [32:49]

  • “When you live a good day, what tends to be a part of that day?” (e.g., sleep, working out, reading)
  • Identify and reinforce “upstream” habits—keystone actions that make other habits easier.

• Reflection and Reviewing systems [34:47]

  • “Reflection and review is almost like the meta-habit above all others.”
  • Systems need to be reviewed and updated as your life changes.

Adapting to Life’s Seasons (“Four Burners Theory”) [38:52]

• The “Four Burners” (work, family, friends, health): “You can’t have all four burners going at the same time. There are always trade-offs.” — James Clear [38:52]
• Sequence the big seasons of life; not everything has to happen at once.

Compounding & 1% Improvements [63:36, 63:42]

• “Getting 1% better each day for a year makes you 37x better at the end.”
  • “The hallmark of any compounding process is all the greatest returns are delayed... The effects of your habits are delayed. Time magnifies whatever you feed it.” — James Clear [63:43]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Your outcomes are a lagging measure of your habits. Fix the habits and the results fix themselves.” — James Clear [03:40]
• “Comparison is the teacher of skills when it’s applied narrowly; it’s the thief of joy when it’s applied broadly.” — James Clear [31:31]
• “People need consistency more than they need intensity. Consistency enlarges ability.” — James Clear [109:59]
• “The secret to winning is learning how to lose.” — James Clear [114:30]
• On accountability tools: “If the bar is perfect at the beginning, it’s really hard to maintain. If the bar is getting you in now, you build momentum.” — James Clear [80:17]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment / Insight | |----------|--------------------------------------------------| | 00:24 | Four stages of every habit (cue, craving, etc.) | | 01:25 | Breaking bad habits | | 03:06 | Habits as “lagging measures” | | 12:22 | Tactics for the crucial first five minutes | | 14:00 | The Two-Minute Rule | | 22:44 | Systems vs. goals | | 32:49 | Which habits to pursue first (upstream habits) | | 34:47 | Reflection as the “meta habit” | | 38:52 | Four Burners Theory & managing trade-offs | | 44:11 | Identity-based habits, “votes for who you want…” | | 51:15 | The social aspect of habits | | 63:36 | 1% improvements and the power of compounding | | 86:05 | Four Laws of Behavior Change | | 100:38 | Habit stacking explained | | 109:59 | Consistency vs Intensity | | 114:30 | Handling setbacks: The secret to winning is... |

Noteworthy Case Studies & Stories

• The Paperclip Technique [81:12]
  • Stockbroker moved 100 paperclips from one jar to another for each call; simple, visual tracking tool.
• St. Olaf’s Soccer Program [21:09]
  • Coach used Atomic Habits concepts to build daily systems. Team went from 5 wins/season to national champions over five years.

Practical Tips and Frameworks from the Episode

• Plan for Setbacks
  • Don’t aim for perfection; design a system for getting back on track quickly.
• Make Your Environment Work for You
  • “Is the good habit the path of least resistance in this room/environment?”
• Measurement and Habit Tracking
  • Use simple visual tools like calendars, paperclip jars, or habit scorecards for instant feedback.
• Join the Right Groups
  • Place yourself among people for whom your desired habit is “normal.”

Ending Reflection

The episode concludes by reaffirming that the journey to real, positive change is sustained by small, strategic actions done consistently. Systems trump goals. Begin with tiny behaviors that are easy to start, tie them to who you want to become, and find joy in the process. James emphasizes that happiness and meaning are not always the same—deep satisfaction often grows from meaningful struggle, not ease.

“Your habits are not a finish line to be crossed, they’re a lifestyle to be lived.” — James Clear [42:16]

Resources Mentioned

• Atomic Habits (Book) and Atomic Habits Workbook – Both by James Clear
• James Clear’s newsletter “3-2-1”
• “The Inner Game of Tennis” (Book referenced for mindset)
• David Brailsford’s "1% gains" cycling philosophy

Final Thought

“You make changes that are small and easy to do. You layer them together like units in a larger system... Collectively, you get this powerful, remarkable result.” — James Clear [126:42]

For listeners seeking tangible, science-backed strategies for habit change—with inspiring stories and a sense of optimism—this episode is a masterclass in living better, starting small, and thinking big.