The Diary Of A CEO – Harvard’s Behaviour Expert: The Psychology Of Why People Don't Like You!
Podcast: The Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett
Guest: Professor Alison Wood Brooks, Harvard Behavioural Scientist
Release Date: December 15, 2025
Main Theme
This episode delves into the science of conversation and likability, exploring why people may be disliked or misunderstood and offering research-backed, practical strategies to become a more persuasive, influential, and genuinely likable communicator. Steven Bartlett speaks with Harvard Professor Alison Wood Brooks, whose work unveils the hidden complexities behind social interactions, with a focus on actionable steps for improving relationships, negotiation, and everyday connection—especially in an age dominated by digital communication and rising loneliness.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Central Role of Conversation in Life
- All of Life is About Relationships: “All of life is about relationships, and relationships are about talking. If you can learn even one strategy that helps you in your conversations, it will massively improve your life.”
— Alison Wood Brooks, [03:21] - Many adults assume conversations should be easy because they’ve practiced them all their lives, yet basic misunderstandings and awkwardness are pervasive and reveal hidden complexity.
- Bartlett reflects on introversion, social anxiety, being misunderstood, and the myth that successful communicators are naturally good at all conversation types.
Why Are We Disliked or Misunderstood?
- Miscommunication is Ubiquitous: Statistical and anecdotal evidence shows most people are misunderstood or disliked for reasons related to their communication habits.
- “On my worst days, I worry that everybody's walking around being misunderstood.”
— A.W. Brooks, [04:53]
- “On my worst days, I worry that everybody's walking around being misunderstood.”
- The gap between what’s inside our minds and what we express is significant and always subject to curation.
- When analyzed scientifically, common communication failings emerge: awkwardness, defensive reactions, boring or hostile exchanges.
Social Anxiety and the "Excitement Reappraisal"
- Reframing Anxiety: Brooks’ research demonstrates that reframing social anxiety as excitement (“I’m excited”) improves negotiation, public speaking, and collaboration outcomes.
- “Saying ‘I’m excited’ makes you focus on opportunity rather than threat.”
— A.W. Brooks, [13:54]
- “Saying ‘I’m excited’ makes you focus on opportunity rather than threat.”
- Example: In karaoke and negotiation studies, those who stated they were "excited" performed better than those who stated they were "anxious."
- This effect, even referenced in Inside Out, is simple but profound, emphasizing the transformative power of self-talk.
The Conversational Compass: Understanding Goals
- Multi-Dimensional Conversations: Every conversation contains a mix of goals:
- Relational (strengthen the relationship)
- Informational (exchange facts)
- Self-oriented (protect self, time, or reputation)
- The Conversational Compass helps identify where the primary drive lies—connection, savoring, discernment, or persuasion ([27:24]).
The TALK Framework
Introduced as the most “comprehensive, teachable and scientifically rigorous” approach to mastering any conversation ([49:12]).
T – Topics
- Conversations are built on topics, and shifting topics at the right moment is a learnable skill.
- Power of Preparation: Briefly prepping topics or questions—even 10 seconds—improves flow, reduces anxiety, and increases likability ([51:27]).
- Avoid lingering on small talk; move towards tailored or deeper subjects as soon as rapport allows.
- “We don’t need to avoid small talk. The mistake is staying there too long.”
— A.W. Brooks, [57:27]
- “We don’t need to avoid small talk. The mistake is staying there too long.”
A – Asking Questions
- Asking, especially follow-up questions, is the most direct route to likability and dynamic conversation, confirmed by large datasets (e.g., speed dates).
- “People who ask more questions are enormously more likely to get asked on a second date. It’s particularly helpful for men because they ask fewer questions on average...”
— A.W. Brooks, [62:39]
- “People who ask more questions are enormously more likely to get asked on a second date. It’s particularly helpful for men because they ask fewer questions on average...”
- Avoid “boomerasking” – immediately relating everything back to yourself. Listen, validate, and go deeper before reciprocating disclosures ([65:27]).
L – Levity
- Levity means bringing warmth and humor, which are essential for avoiding the greater danger of conversations: boredom and disengagement.
- “The more common enemy of conversation is boredom, not conflict.”
— A.W. Brooks, [77:23] - You don’t need to be funny, but anyone can increase warmth—through gratitude, flattery, callbacks, and skillful topic shifting.
K – Kindness
- Kindness goes beyond politeness: It involves genuine respect, using names properly, and mindful, respectful language.
- Micro-mistakes (e.g., using the wrong name, tone, or disrespect) accumulate and erode likability (“death by a thousand cuts”) ([73:08]).
- Kindness is not self-abnegation: It's about mutual benefit—making yourself valuable makes you irreplaceable.
Receivership & Validation: Handling Disagreement
- Receptiveness is the key to maintaining dialogue during disagreement—validate the other’s feelings before expressing your own view.
- “It makes sense that you feel X about Y.” — A.W. Brooks, [38:40]
- Avoid “I disagree” as a conversation opener; instead, seek common ground, use "yes, and..." rather than "but," and remain curious.
Listening: The Undervalued Superpower
- Listening is more than silence—perceive, process, and then reflect back what you’ve heard.
- “People only think you’re listening when you agree with them. But agreement and listening are not the same thing.”
— A.W. Brooks, [119:02]
- “People only think you’re listening when you agree with them. But agreement and listening are not the same thing.”
- Charisma often stems from great listening and responsive engagement, not mere oratory.
Special Considerations
- Digital Communication & AI: The explosion of digital, especially AI-generated, communication makes conversations feel less real and more generic, damaging connection and attention. The most real and memorable interactions remain face-to-face.
- “Only face-to-face conversations feel real in retrospect.” — A.W. Brooks, [130:59]
- Men and Friendship: Brooks’ research highlights that men particularly struggle with vulnerability, resulting in poor quality friendships and worsening loneliness.
- Authenticity: “Strategic authenticity” is advocated—bringing your true values, but adjusting behavior to fit context and group goals.
Memorable Moments & Quotes
-
On Miscommunication:
“On my worst days, I worry that everybody's walking around being misunderstood.”
— Alison Wood Brooks, [04:53] -
On Excitement Reappraisal:
“Saying 'I'm excited' makes you focus on opportunity rather than threat.”
— A.W. Brooks, [13:54] -
On Likability:
“People really care about likability. They really want to know what's making them disliked, and they really want to know how to be liked.”
— Stephen Bartlett, [48:15] -
On Gender Differences in Friendship:
“Men are much less likely to be vulnerable... It was maddening to watch these men have hundreds of conversations and none talked about real feelings or struggles.”
— A.W. Brooks, [107:53] -
On Conversational Goals:
“Validation is not equivalent to agreement. You can validate … and then go on to vehemently disagree, and that disagreement is gonna go a lot better after you’ve validated them.”
— A.W. Brooks, [118:31] -
On Digital Communication:
“The thing my students note … is that only face to face conversations feel real in retrospect and while they're happening.”
— A.W. Brooks, [130:59]
Key Timestamps
- 00:00 – 04:36: Introduction; why people care so deeply about being liked; the science behind awkwardness and missteps
- 13:54: Reframing anxiety as excitement; the “Get Excited” study
- 24:23 – 35:32: The Conversational Compass; detailed breakdown of conversation goals and how they interplay
- 49:12 – 54:46: The TALK framework overview and detailed discussion on preparing topics
- 62:39: Data on why asking questions increases likability, especially for men on dates
- 73:08 – 76:14: “Death by a thousand cuts” and the importance of micro-kindness and respect
- 77:23 – 79:04: The role of levity, humor, and warmth in avoiding disengagement
- 104:15: Business application—asking questions to understand and persuade
- 107:53 – 109:45: The crisis of male friendship, vulnerability, and real conversation
- 130:59: Digital communication audit; why only face-to-face feels real
Practical Tools & Exercises (Scattered Throughout)
-
10 Questions to Fall in Like:
- A back-and-forth exercise to quickly foster connection—"What are you excited about lately?" "Is there something you'd like to learn to do?" etc. ([113:08])
-
Conversation Prep:
- Take 10–30 seconds prior to a meeting or social event to consider questions or topics, improving flow and connection ([51:27]).
-
Digital Audit Exercise:
- Record every incoming/outgoing communication over 20-30 minutes; realize the volume and artificiality of most non-face-to-face interactions ([129:26]).
Actionable Takeaways
- Small preparation for conversations has outsized effects: Prepping 1-2 questions can transform engagement and likability.
- Ask more (and better) questions: Especially crucial for men and professionals seeking to deepen connections.
- Prioritize follow-up questions over 'boomerasking.’
- **Use warmth and respectful language in small interactions—including names and gratitude—for cumulative impact.
- Validate before disagreeing: "It makes sense that you feel X about Y."
- **Recognize listening as an active, not passive, skill.
- Face-to-face > Digital: Maximizing real conversations is crucial in a digital, AI-permeated world.
Final Reflection
-
Strategic Authenticity:
“If you were to bring your full self to work, it would be a nightmare... Athletes adjust, and so should good conversationalists.” — A.W. Brooks, [140:39] -
The Ultimate Human Skill:
“Talk is the advantage that humans have over AI... I can imagine worlds where work is no longer a thing... but I cannot imagine a world where they’re not going to need to connect with other human beings and talk to them well.”
— A.W. Brooks, [138:07]
Resources & Follow-Up
- Alison Wood Brooks' Book: Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves
- Conversation Type Quiz and School Curriculum: alisonwoodbrooks.com | talkstudios.com
- 10 Questions to Fall in Like: Try with a friend, colleague, or partner for a quick connection boost.
This episode is a masterclass in conversation, blending behavioral science with relatable, heartfelt examples, and offers listeners transformative advice for life, work, and relationships in the modern world.