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Moment 211: Dr. Andrew Huberman: The Real Reason You're Always Exhausted & Have No Dopamine!
00:37:13
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- [00:00]
Andrew Huberman
We can again look at things through the lens of biology and say, well, what are we talking about when we're talking about energy? What is this energy thing that people are talking about? And I think it largely boils down to these catecholamines, the dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail that is setting the brain into a mode of attention, of motivation. We now know dopamine is more about motivation to seek rewards as opposed to feeling of pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be said about that. And keep in mind that these three neurochemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine, have been the neurochemical cocktail by which humans and other mammals have set and pursued goals for hundreds of thousands of years. So we don't have like a unique system, a unique neurochemical system for seeking out of mates versus food versus creating shelter versus creating technology and whole societies. And it's not just these three neurochemicals. Certainly there are other things involved, acetylcholine and a bunch of other things, neuroplasticity for that matter. But it's clearly the case that the currency that the brain has set around getting us into forward center of mass. As I say, to envision something explore. Nope, not down there. This way. Ah, there's a scent here. And trade out an actual scent for. Oh, there's something interesting here. There's someone interesting here. And exploring that. No, that's a dead path too. Cul de sac, turn around, go. Oh, here. And then connecting these nodes of progress. What's progress? Ah, there's kind of another surge of these catecholamines, which sets us in forward center of mass. You know, I don't want to oversimplify the biology, but when we talk about energy, for instance, taking time to rest at night sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a few minutes or do this practice that I'm a huge fan of, non sleep deep rest, which is kind of a body scan, deep relaxation, long exhales. It's a practice very similar to an ancient practice called Yoga nidra, which has been practiced for thousands of years. It's a kind of pseudo sleep. And we know from a really nice study that NSDR Non sleep deep rest, AKA Yoga nidra, can increase the baseline levels of dopamine in a brain area called the basal ganglia, which is for action generation, and also withholding action by about 60% from baseline. Just a short period of doing this practice can re up dopamine levels to a Considerable extent. It's a remarkable study. And there are others like it. So what does that mean? Well, it means that in rest we build up this capacity to, to be forward center of mass when we emerge from rest. That's why I think we have to sleep every 24 hours. This is why practices where we deliberately calm ourselves and still ourselves allow us to be more forward center of mass mentally and physically afterwards. It's kind of a duh. When we hear it, we kind of go, oh, duh. Of course, rest action. Rest, action. But there's a lot more to it. If you start exploring the layers, you start realizing that excitement for things versus burnout. What's burnout? It's just trying to be forward center of mass for too long. It's misuse of our dopamine circuitry. It's ignoring the fact that these catecholamines and dopamine in particular, they are not infinite in their availability. There's a reservoir of them that can be depleted, but it can be replenished as well. And one of the best analogies for this was actually explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle Gillette. He does some online work as a public facing physician, endocrinology in particular. And he said, with dopamine, it's kind of like a wave pool. You have this reservoir that can allow you to pursue things or scroll the Internet or build businesses, whatever it is. If you are really forward center of mass, very intensely, you start generating these waves. And if you get big waves of dopamine and they crash out of the pool, you start depleting the reservoir. So when I think about drugs of abuse like cocaine, which leads to huge surges in dopamine or amphetamines, huge surges in dopamine. What do we know about huge surges in dopamine? Well, after those huge surges, you drop below your initial baseline to a state in which the same thing doesn't feel as good anymore. You need so much more energy to get the same output.
- [04:24]
Lex Fridman
That's what this is, right?
- [04:25]
Andrew Huberman
That's what this is.
- [04:26]
Lex Fridman
I'll put this on the screen for anyone.
- [04:28]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. So my colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lemke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic and wrote the wonderful book Dopamine Nation, described this best. You know, it's sort of like a seesaw, but whereby you get a big peak in dopamine, let's say, from a drug of abuse like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's all about ideas and what's next. They're not like, hey, let's just kick back. It's all about what's. In fact, they have a million ideas per second. Most of them are terrible ideas, but they're very forward center of mass motivated. And then when the drug wears off, they feel very low and very depressed. The dopamine is actually depleted below baseline. People that work excessively, right, we all have different abilities to work out. But people that work excessively and abuse stimulants in order to do that, achieve these peaks.
- [05:14]
Lex Fridman
Is that like. So what would be an everyday example of that working excessively? Do you mean like pre workout or something? Or do you mean.
- [05:22]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah, I'm not anti pre workout. Listen, I love to be well rested, hydrated, have a nice pre workout drink, maybe even a little shot of espresso, listen to some music and have an incredible leg day workout. It's an amazing feeling, right? But if you do that every single time, you start stacking all these catecholamine release inducing drugs, okay, so you're getting adrenaline, you're getting epinephrine, which is adrenaline. Excuse me, you're getting adrenaline, you're getting noradrenaline, also called norepinephrine, you're getting dopamine release, you're highly motivated, you're in that state that everyone is seeking and you try and do that seven days a week, you're not going to do it. And then you wonder why in the afternoon you're just completely cooked and you can't do any cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and other things have crashed below baseline. So I think it's important to understand that being as I'm calling it, forward center of mass, like really kind of motivated and pursuing goals is great. But most of the time we're probably best off just coming off the gas pedal just a little bit to maintain that ability to continue to be forward center of mass. The same thing is true for stress. We hear stress is bad. Well, stress is bad, but it also sharpens your ability to learn. It creates energy, it actually boosts your immune system. In the short term, I say tolerate as much stress as you can, provided you still behave like a kind person. Right? Don't say or do things that are unkind and make sure that you still get great sleep at night. Most people, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress run around and then they can't sleep at night and then the next day they're depleted. But a little bit of stress is healthy, life is stress, things are stressful. But again, you're going to be in your best state of mind. If you're calm and alert. Alert and calm is the magic recipe. And the ability to sleep at night, if you want to take a bunch of pre workout and you want to listen to some loud music and have a great crush, it workout, great. But you should probably also be able to train without all of that. If you're somebody who loves new goals and you're very excited about travel and this and that, great. But do you have to layer in 50 things and then you're sitting around at home and you're wondering why you're so bored when you're back home and why life is so depressing and you need more travel, more stimulation. In every domain of life we see, whether or not it's food or exercise or stimulants or sex or media, if you push things to the max, you're going to feel depleted and understimulated afterwards. And this trough below baseline, as Anna Lembke taught us with Dopamine Nation, that trough is a state that can last a long time. And it's how long, it's proportional to how high that peak in dopamine was, not how long, but how high that peak in dopamine was. And when you're in that trough, that dopamine depleted state, typically what people do is they try and go out or access things that are going to reactivate the dopamine circuitry. And all it does is drive them further and further and longer and longer into that trough. What's needed is a period of waiting, of non indulgence in any of these excesses that allows them to return to baseline. We know this from drugs of abuse. It takes more and more drug to try and get what turns out to be less and less of a high. Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured essentially through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days. Which to somebody who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective. So for some people, it's work and stimulants. You know, a number of people taking Adderall and work, work, work, work, work. I hear from these people all the time. Typically they are from the tech and finance world. They're like, why am I burnt out? Well, you've been blasting the, these catecholamine regulated circuits for years. You need to just accept you're gonna feel a little low for a week, then you're gonna feel a little less low, then you're gonna come back to baseline and then and only then can you really get back into, like, full forward center of mass. But at that point, you can introduce. You know, I do think there is a clinical use case for certain ADHD meds, which are amphetamine. There are certain people that need those meds. Other people have driven themselves into this dopamine trough, and so they're seeking out anything and everything to get them out of that trough. When really what they need to do is stay away from all that stuff and just wait. Just wait.
- [09:50]
Lex Fridman
Go on holiday or something.
- [09:51]
Andrew Huberman
Go on holiday. Try and find reward in smaller things. You know, this is why dogs are wonderful in simpler things. And if that sounds heavy and dull to you, chances are you're a bit in the dopamine loop. I've been in these loops before. They're hard to exit, but once you exit them, you look back on them, you go, what was I thinking? Well, you were in a different state. You're kind of a different animal when you're in pursuit.
- [10:18]
Lex Fridman
I think this is so unbelievably important because it really helps people to understand why they do what they do. And before doing the research on you coming here today and before understanding some of this stuff, I thought dopamine was, I don't know, it was this thing that came in, these hits, maybe. And if I did something, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. If I did something again, stimulating, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. But what actually is happening is I'm doing something that's stimulating in some way, I'm getting this huge peak, then I'm crashing below baseline for a while. And when I'm below baseline, that's when I'm most likely to want to do something that's going to give me a hit again.
- [10:54]
Andrew Huberman
That's right.
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Lex Fridman
And when I saw that, it reminded me of the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose monitor that I wore, because it was a very similar pattern. If I had a lot of sugar, I had a big peak, then I crashed below my baseline.
- [11:06]
Andrew Huberman
Right. That's a great observation. It's the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy because these regulatory systems are all about trying to maintain homeostasis. We all hear about, we learn about homeostasis like the desire for balance. The human body and human physiology is actually geared more towards something called allostasis, which involves kind of stress modulation. But without getting into too many details, these are dynamic systems, meaning brain systems that are designed to allow us to overcome challenges if need be. Right. This is why I always push back on the idea that you know, stress crashes your immune system. You know what crashes your immune system? Being very, very stressed, Working a lot, a lot, caretaking for someone else and then stopping. You always get sick when you stop. Why? Because actually stress activates the immune system. Makes sense that it would do that evolutionarily, right? And then when we rest, boom, our immune system kind of relaxes a little bit and then we succumb to that, you know, the bacteria or virus. So what does it mean? It means that we should probably learn to modulate. It's like driving a car. Anytime we feel that we're headed toward or in a peak state, we should probably kind of like lean back off that state just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit. Especially if that peak state is coming by way of pharmacology or some extreme circumstance. Just back off a little bit, maybe a lot. Okay. So when we do that, we learn to master the transition states between these, what I'm referring to as forward center of mass, flat footed or back on my heels. It's a term I learned from a former Navy SEAL operator. He said with anything in life you can either be back on your heels, like really challenged, flat footed, kind of like calm and forward, or forward center of mass, like full tilt. I think most people would do very well to learn to master the transition states between waking and going to sleep. Right? Many people can't fall asleep, many people just kind of can't turn it off. You can learn how to do that by doing things like non sleep, deep rest, some long exhale breathing, simple self directed, zero cost tools that help adjust your autonomic nervous system to be more what we call parasympathetic, more rest and digest. Just long exhales might not work the first time, but over time these become very effective tools to self direct the shift from forward center of mass to flat footed to just kind of laying back, back on your heels and there you go, you're off to sleep. When you wake up in the morning, some people are just depleted. Maybe you didn't sleep enough. But learning to get forward center of mass shouldn't require excess caffeine and stimulants and super loud music and a shocking text or email. Ideally you can transition pretty quickly into being forward center of mass, but not full tilt forward center of mass. Why do I say this? I think for anyone who seeks to be successful in any domain, academics, business, creative endeavors, whatever, if you want to have a long arc life and a long arc career, you really strive to control these transition states. And when I say control all it really takes is paying attention to them and paying attention to the fact that yes, some people just have inherently more energy. They can do every single workout at max output, then shower, they're talking in the gym, then they're off to that. Some people are like that. Some people like myself, If I give 100% to something in the morning, by the afternoon I'm a little bit depleted. So I require a 10 or 20 minute non sleep, deep rest or a nap or just some quiet long exhale breathing, maybe a little bit of caffeine, which I'm drinking now. I mean, there's nothing wrong with healthy stimulants, provided they're consumed in moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those can be great too for some people. And then really going full tilt, focusing one's attention and then afterwards taking a few moments, just moments, to downshift. I think we hear so much about the power of meditation or non sleep, deep rest or ice baths. What do cold plunges and cold showers do? They stimulate the release of what the catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, long duration release. That's why it's useful in my opinion. For all the debate about deliberate cold exposure, does it increase metabolism? Does it not? The answer seems to be probably not much. But it's absolutely clear that it causes a huge increase in adrenaline, dopamine and norepinephrine that are very long lasting and that makes you feel great, especially when you get out of the cold. And I think that's the value of it. It also saves you on your heating bill. Like you don't have to have a cold plunge. You take a cold shower, nobody likes it, but the point is you get out and you feel different. It's a state shift, so that's great. But you don't want to do it to excess because then, for instance, people always say, how long should I go in the cold plunger, cold shower? And I say do it the minimum amount so that you get the effect that you're seeking, which is to be more alert and motivated. I have a friend, he did 30 minutes for some reason naked. He said, I did 30 minutes naked in the cold plunge and then I got sick and I'm feeling really low. And I'm like, because you did 30 minutes. I mean, I don't know about the naked part, what that had to do with it, but you had to throw that in there. He's kind of an extreme guy. And I said, how about one minute? How about 30 seconds? How about don't even pay attention to the time, just get in and stay in as long as until you want to get out and then push through that barrier and then get out. That might be a minute, might be three minutes. You know, protect yourself, be safe, but just learn to overcome some challenge and then get out. You know, we have this fixation that more is better and more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more because we don't know where minimal is. People say, how many sets in the gym is it, you know, now it's like all about the volume, hypertrophy or like I've always fairly low recovery quotient. So for me I like to do a couple warmups, a few hard sets, two or three hard sets, another exercise, two or three hard sets, that's it for that muscle group, move on. People always say, well, volume is where it's okay, great. But when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per muscle group, I'll tell you, I'm depleted, it doesn't work for me. And I sort of, well, I'll just be honest. I kind of chuckle at the exercise scientists who say, well, this is the way it is in this study. Great. That's not how it works for me. And even though I'm a scientist and I trust data, I also trust my own experience. And no one's going to tell me that it's placebo because it's what's worked for me. So I think that you have to find what your capabilities are. And I do think if you look at dog breeds, of which I'm obsessed by, if you go to a dog show, which everyone should go to a dog show once, but don't watch the show, go behind the show where you see all the different dog breeds, what you'll see is what I saw the first time I did that. You have dogs where they're wagging their tail all the time, they're super excited, they're alert, you can see their eyes, right? They're just bright eyed. You can see the Great Danes, they're super still. And then my favorite breed and the reason I own them is the bulldog. The essence of economy of effort. They don't even lift their head off the ground. You walk over, you pet them, they'll like look up at you, they might wink. Very still animals, very powerful, but very still animals. Now I'm not wired like that, as you're probably getting the impression I have a little bit more spontaneous movement, et cetera. So I need a lot of mental and physical stimulation in order to be happy, in order to feel fulfilled. So for me, there was a lot of work, and I still do a lot of work in order to learn how to downshift, take it down, become a good sleeper, become a good resetter, Reset myself during the middle of the day with things like non sleep, deep rest, which for me has been one of the most powerful tools, or long exhale breathing to just bring myself down. Other people, they tend to have a little bit less energy than life demands of them. So they need to do a bit more cold shower, a little bit more caffeine. But then those people probably need a little bit more rest. They're like the bulldogs of life. I think even though we're all the same species, just like dogs, there's a lot of variation there. So you have to know thyself, as the oracle said, Understanding a little bit about the catecholamines, Understanding that certain things like exercise, deliberate cold exposure, stimulants like caffeine, and prescription drugs like Adderall, et cetera, powerfully cause the release of these catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine, leading to big increases in energy and focus. But then always, always, always there's a cost, a trough that follows. Accept that, relax through it, then return to baseline and then go forward or avoid those things altogether. I'm not telling people what to do. Obviously, the prescription drug thing in particular can be problematic for some people, even addictive. And certainly I'm not a fan of drugs of abuse like cocaine, amphetamine, absolutely categorically, never done them, never will. And then other people who tend to veer toward being hyperactivated, a lot of spontaneous movement. These people tend to be a little bit thinner, a little bit leaner, or just have a ton of natural energy. These people should really learn to incorporate more kind of what I would call calming and relaxing practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than cold plunge. Maybe don't crank the sauna to 2:20. I find myself doing that. I'm like, just relax, enjoy the sauna. And so I think the key to a good life and a productive life is again, to learn to master the transitions states, understand some of the biology, and to really know yourself. Not just your natural tendency, more bulldog like versus, you know, I don't know. Pit bulls always have their tail going. A lot of spontaneous movement. There are other breeds as well. But also know that on any given day, you may be more or less rested, you might be more or Less depleted from life experience and kind of recognize where you're at and figure out what's optimal for that day. In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's on Instagram. And there are a lot of self help account, then there are a lot of self help accounts out there. But one of the best things that I've heard recently and I try and incorporate it into my life, in fact it's in my notebook, is when I wake up in the morning, I sort of take stock of where I am in terms of how rested I am. I certainly take stock of what I need to do that day. And then I ask what's something that I can do to make my life that day, the life of others, better? Sometimes that means rest a little bit more. Sometimes that means push a little bit more. Sometimes that means call a relative that you haven't spoken to. But thinking about how to make things better on the timescale of a day for oneself and for others, I think is what's manageable and it's what's realistic. And it takes this whole concept of protocols and biohacking and prescription drugs and supplements and workouts and it's. And it brings a real world perspective to it. So I think we're living in the time of kind of almost avatars of these different things. Like I think about David Goggins, who I know well. Well, from the perspective of co worker, right. I consider him a friend, but we've never hung out outside of the work context. But I first met David back in 2016 and I'll tell you, he's always that way, at least when I've interacted with him. He's always been, you know, forward center of mass. It was late in the day on a work. This was a thing in Silicon Valley. It was down in San Jose, Santa Clara, San Jose area in I believe it was 2016. And we had been working all day in this part of this consult for this company. And in the afternoon, you know, there was like, do we take a break or do we push? He's like, no, we push. We're gonna do this. And I thought, whoa, like this guy's intense and he was changing. Cause he was gonna run to the airport, but not run to the airport in an Uber or drive to the airport. He meant run to the airport. And he did. So, you know, he's forward center of mass. He clearly has the energy or he's found the energy.
- [22:26]
Lex Fridman
Can you train that? Can you raise your sort of baseline dopamine level or are they Two separate questions.
- [22:33]
Andrew Huberman
It's a great question. I don't know that we have the answer. I think you can, if you become more economical about whatever dopamine or other neurochemicals you happen to harbor inside. We know there's a lot of genetic and individual variation to these things. You know, there's a joke among parents, right? Like how they come out is how they stay. Like the mellow kid, the mellow baby that didn't cry much. The happy baby remains the happy person. You know, there are circumstances that can alter that versus the fussy baby that's always fussy, even as an adult. You know, parents talk this way, but parents say all sorts of things. But, you know, I know people, for instance, like Rick Rubin, for instance, who is very high energy but very calm. It's part of Rick's magic. He knows how to regulate and control his energy. He has this uncanny capacity to get near things, in particular art, music, and to experience them, really feel them, but not get absorbed by it. Not feel, at least to my knowledge, depleted by it. Some people get kind of absorbed by things and then depleted.
- [23:39]
Lex Fridman
Is this like the introvert extrovert conversation as well? Because two people can be in the same room. And, I mean, I consider myself to be a bit of an extrovert, sorry, introvert, where if I stand in a room for two to three hours doing small talk, the way I describe it is like my brain feels fried. Whereas my assistant Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel into her.
- [23:59]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah, I'm similar to you. And I have an ex girlfriend who loved parties. She would just get so much energy from parties. And I like certain parties, but I like the small conversation I might have at a party. So that resonates with me. I think we can shift. Well, to answer the introvert extrovert question, I do think that some people get energy from social interactions. Other people less so. But I know people who are quite quiet who like social interactions. They're just more an observer in those interactions as opposed to a participant. The introvert extrovert thing also, at least my understanding of the science is that it depends a bit on how quickly you fill up with social engagement. Like, I like a good party, but after a couple hours I'm like, done. And other people, they can just go, go, go, go, go, go. They get more energy from it. I think we think of Goggins as kind of an iconic example because he is of somebody who is capable of pushing himself regardless of what the internal nar might be. That's My sense having spoken to him about it on my podcast and observed him on social media and other podcasts. Some people, like Jocko Willink, embody the don't even think about it. You do it because it's 4:30 in the morning and at 4:30 in the morning you work out. Like, don't think, do. Whereas when I think of David, I think of many things, but in particular about overcoming the voice in the mind that's trying to pull you down and defeating that. In fact, having multiple representations of self in the brain, which is a fascinating thing unto itself. And then when I think about Rick, I think, you know, Rick is iconic in my mind for his sense of creativity, his ability to sense what is truly new and unique. He has incredible taste, right? To really be able to sense like this is new and different and exciting. And he seems to understand without trying to seek what people are going to like, what people inevitably love. So that's one of his many superpowers. And everyone has their superpower. Those are just some extremes. I think of Lex Friedman as somebody who is so thoughtful and I mean, I don't think people really understand just how hard Lex thinks about the tragedies of the world, the darkness in the world, but also the love that's in the world. I mean, he really like hyper affiliates with what's happening in his mind and he's able to really like absorb himself in that. And you can feel like he gets right up next to the fire, like right up next to these things. And I think he represents the kind of iconic example of an explorer who will look anywhere even if people are going to give him a hard time for it. But I think mostly people celebrate him for it. So I think different people have different lenses, lenses on life and different capacities. I think if one wants to increase their baseline level of dopamine, I think it's important to regulate those peaks and troughs. I'm not a believer in like never having peaks in dopamine. A great wedding party. Like, I've been to some weddings where we just like partied all night or great concerts. I'm actually a huge fan. It's kind of a genre of music I don't know much about, but I've always loved that band. James, do you know the band we are, James?
- [27:20]
Lex Fridman
No, I don't.
- [27:20]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, it's so good. Okay. I'm gonna lose punk points for saying, but best live shows ever. Just the best live shows I've ever seen. And I know there are, and I know there are a lot of different ideas about best live shows based on genres of music. I just. It's like the best party you've ever been to. And I get a lift in energy that lasts two, three days from that. I don't consume any substances at those shows. They happen very seldom. But when I've gone for two or three days, I feel like a changed person. It's a shift in neurochemical state and I don't feel a trough afterwards. So I want to be very clear. There are certain things like celebrations, concerts, they seem to give us these big surges in neurochemicals, but they don't leave us depleted. And I'm very intrigued by these experiences because when I look to some examples, I have some friends who've been very successful in the tech sector and finance sector. They make a lot of money, and I always worry about them afterwards. Inevitably they end up depressed, not knowing what they want to do. So I always encourage them to keep working. In fact, the happiest people in tech and finance are the ones that keep working even after they get rich. So the people I see who are very happy are the people who take stock of their natural levels of energy, curiosity, motivation. You know, we could say dopamine, but that's kind of a surrogate for a bunch of other things, and it's incomplete. Right? There are other chemicals involved, but. But for sake of conversation, we could say dopamine, catecholamines, epinephrine, and they sort of know what they're capable of on a consistent basis. I think one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got was from a neurologist by the name of Bob Knight. When I was a graduate student. He said, figure out how much work you can do over the course of the next four to five years on a consistent basis, because it's going to change as you get older. Might not even go down. So, for instance, I know that I can work a good solid 12 hours a day. That's me, 12 hours a day, five, maybe six days a week. But I like one full day off per week. I just like that. Typically it's Sunday for me. I'll do some exercise and some other things. But if I try and go 15 hours a day or 12 hours a day, seven days a week, I'm gonna run aground for other people. They need to work less. And now some people will say, okay, but do you have kids? And this and that. I'm not saying what work means. It could be career, it could be family, or both. But I'm not somebody who has an infinite amount of energy, but I have a lot of energy. If you have less energy, you can do things like try and get great sleep, try and eat as well as you possibly can. You may have to do more to get more energy, but you sort of have to accept your own kind of baseline state. And I think I certainly know many people who are like mellower, calmer, have quote, unquote, less energy. They're just more efficient with that energy. They place it correctly. They're not wasting their energy. I know people that can scroll Instagram all the time, talk about what's going on on Twitter, watch three podcasts, program and do a million things. I'm like, they're fine. So I think we have to know where our groove is and that we can deviate from that about 15 to 20%. But anything more extreme than that, we're going to end up in trouble.
- [30:32]
Lex Fridman
I think a lot of the reason why people are curious about dopamine is because ultimately they want to be more productive or effective at some goal they have in their life. So it might be building a business. It could be some. It could be a podcast, whatever. So taking everything you know about dopamine and how it works, if you were giving me advice on how I could be a better entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever. The first thing I got from you was really about this idea of transitioning between states and also allowing time for my reserves to replenish after a high dopamine activity. Is there anything else that I should be thinking about?
- [31:05]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. So we could operationalize this in a very clear way. Get enough sleep for you. For some people it's six hours. For some people it's eight hours. I'd like to dispel the myth, even though my friend Matt Walker will probably get upset at me for saying this. Not everyone needs eight or nine hours of sleep. Okay. I got six last night. Okay. I actually went to bed at midnight last night. Oh, excuse me. I got six hours and 45 minutes last night. I went to bed at midnight, which is kind of late for me. Woke up at 6:45. But get enough sleep. If you wake up in the morning and you can't get more sleep for whatever reason, can't fall back asleep or you have to get out of bed if you do not feel rested, I Recommend Doing a 10 or 20 minute non sleep, deep rest or yoga nidra protocol. They are available, zero cost on YouTube. You could put NSDR my name. If you want to listen to me do one. You could put NSDR Kelly Boys does wonderful yoga nidras. She has a very pleasant voice. If you prefer a female voice, there's some wonderful yoga nidras by a woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, These are all zero cost scripts that are available on YouTube.
- [32:06]
Lex Fridman
What is that?
- [32:06]
Andrew Huberman
So non sleep, deep breaths.
- [32:10]
Lex Fridman
You did one today?
- [32:11]
Andrew Huberman
I did one today on the way here.
- [32:13]
Lex Fridman
Okay.
- [32:13]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. Here's what we know. It does replenishes baseline levels of dopamine in the basal ganglia, prepares you for action. Both mental and physical action can indeed help offset some of the sleep that maybe you didn't get, but you needed. We know that the brain goes into a kind of pseudo sleep in this state. And there's also some evidence that yoga nidra and similar practices can improve rates of learning. Okay, so that's sort of the benefits. What is it? It involves what most people will call meditation, but it's different than meditation. You lie down, you could do it seated as well, but you lie down eyes closed and you do long exhale breathing. When we exhale, we actually slow our heart rate down. I could talk about how this is. This is through respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is a relationship between the vagus nerve and the beating of the heart. But in any case, when we inhale, our heart actually speeds up its beats slightly and when we exhale, it slows down its beats slightly. So it involves a lot of long exhale breathing. It involves a body scan where you deliberately relax different aspects of your body. So your first your feet, then your legs, then your hands. It's sort of a body scan of sorts with long exhale breathing. And it takes you into a state that's pseudo sleep. You're somewhere between sleep and awake. Now the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra is that part of the instruction at the beginning is to stay awake. Now if you fall asleep, it's okay. Just make sure you set an alarm if you have to go to work or do something else. But by staying awake while being very relaxed, it seems that the nervous system can continue to stay in a sleep like state enough that you replenish some of these neurochemicals that prepare you for cognitive and physical action. Now, there are 10 minute NSDRs, there are 20 minute NSDRs, there are even hour long yoga nidras and things of that sort. So it depends on how much time you have before you need to get up. So if you sleep well the night before, you wake up after six, eight hours and you're ready to go boom, go but if you're not, I highly Recommend Doing a 10, 20 or 30 minute NSTR practice. You will find that you will be far more rested, you will feel far more mentally and physically vigorous when you emerge from that. It's remarkable. And Matt Walker's laboratory and I are gearing up to do some studies on this to figure out exactly what's happening. Is the brain really going into sleep or is it something entirely different? We don't quite know yet. In any event, it most certainly works and soon we'll know the exact mechanism in the brain. But this re upping of dopamine is very, very clear from the existing studies. So what are you doing there? You're essentially filling the reservoir for the day of activities. Okay, then I recommend hydration, which has a profound effect on energy levels. So 16 to 32 ounces of water. People debate drink out of plastic or don't drink out of plastic. Do you have to purify your water, et cetera. You know, listen, it depends on budget and interest and level of paranoia. I drink a filtered water. I tend to drink out of ceramic or glass. But I am somebody who will occasionally drink out of a plastic water bottle. I'm not neurotic about that sort of thing. But look, if you are fine, and we could all do well to limit the amount of plastic waste in the oceans. So there you go, hydrate then. Some people like myself do very well to get some exercise and sunlight, ideally simultaneously, but certainly get some sunlight and exercise prior to caffeine. Some people do, some people don't. Okay. I also understand and totally support people who just want their coffee or tea first thing in the morning. There's no rule that says that you can't do that. But for me, what I would do is I'd get up, use the restroom if you need to hydrate, and then get some bright light in your eyes, ideally from sunlight, first thing in the morning. Why? Well, there's a whole story about circadian biology here that I could tell you, but I've done that many times before. Suffice to say that getting bright light, ideally from sunlight in your eyes, even through cloud cover, so if you're in the uk, even through cloud cover, increases the amount of cortisol release in your brain and body markedly. That is a good, healthy increase in cortisol that is associated with the transition to waking up. So we know that bright light in the morning, especially from sunlight, increases daytime mood, focus and alertness and it will improve your sleep later that night.