The Diary Of A CEO – Most Replayed Moment: Can Eye Movements Heal Trauma? Bessel Van Der Kolk Explains EMDR Therapy!

Podcast Host: Steven Bartlett
Guest: Dr. Bessel van der Kolk
Date: September 19, 2025

Overview

In this gripping highlight from "The Diary Of A CEO," Steven Bartlett sits down with renowned psychiatrist and trauma researcher Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. They dive into the mechanics of trauma in the brain, how it shapes our lives, and – most crucially – the revolutionary therapy known as EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing). The conversation unpacks how EMDR works, its effects on trauma survivors, and why, despite initial skepticism, it’s now a foundational treatment for PTSD.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Prevalence of Trauma

[00:31-01:16]

• Trauma is not a binary experience; most people have it in some form.
• Dr. van der Kolk shares statistics:

  “A quarter of people get physically abused, one out of five people get sexually abused, one of eight kids witnesses violence, being their parents, et cetera...” (C, 00:43)

• At least half of any professional group viscerally understands trauma.

2. How Trauma Alters the Brain

[01:16-05:26]

• Brain scans can sometimes show activation patterns related to trauma, but these are complex and not always definitive.
• Trauma triggers the “cockroach center” of the brain (periaqueductal gray), beneath the amygdala, making people feel constant, vague danger.

  “When you’re traumatized...that little part of your brain way back in your brain stem is firing all the time. All the time.” (C, 02:22)

• Trauma can shut down parts of the insula (body awareness), leading to either hypervigilance or numbness.

3. The Trigger Mechanism and Dread

[05:26-07:14]

• Traumatized brains develop hyperactive “smoke detectors” (amygdala), causing overreactions to minor stimuli.

  “A minor thing that you may say to me I take as the most insulting thing in the world.” (C, 04:41)

• Triggers are not just sensitivity; they’re deeply tied to past trauma being relived as present reality.

4. Time and Cognition During Trauma

[07:14-09:21]

• Brain imaging of trauma recall shows the right side (emotional/sensory) highly active, while the left (cognitive/reasoning) and “timekeeper” (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) go offline.

  “When you get traumatized, the timekeeper disappears...you don’t know the difference between the past and the present.” (C, 06:51)

• This leads to reliving trauma as if it is happening now, not as a distant memory.

5. Reliving vs. Remembering

[09:21-10:23]

• Trauma isn’t merely a memory but a reliving.
• Physiological responses (fight/flight) are rooted in past incidents, but felt in the 'now' without conscious realization.

  “It feels like you are beating me right now.” (C, 09:57)

6. Can This Cycle Ever Stop? Enter EMDR

[10:17-12:37]

• Yes, trauma triggers can be greatly diminished or eliminated.
• EMDR, originally dismissed as “crazy,” involves moving eyes side-to-side while recalling trauma – found to produce dramatic reductions in symptoms.

  “I go, that’s crazy...Then people start doing it and they showed me how it works. I go like, wow. ...after a few sessions of EMDR, [clients] go like, yeah, that really sucked. But it’s over. It belongs to the past.” (C, 11:28–12:15)

7. The Neurological Mechanism of EMDR

[12:37-13:54]

• Eye movement during recall activates neural pathways connecting self-perception and body awareness, allowing the brain to categorize trauma as “past.”

  “If you move your eyes back and forth...your brain is able to say, oh, yeah, this is what happened to me. But that happened to me in the past.” (C, 12:49)

8. EMDR’s Effectiveness and Limitations

[13:19-14:27]

• 78% of adults with single-incident trauma (e.g., assault, rape by stranger) were “completely cured” in their studies.
• More complex, early childhood trauma is harder to heal quickly, as these experiences become integral to identity.

  “...if you grow up in a certain family early on in your life, you actually become that. The imprint is very deep early on.” (C, 13:54)

9. Meta-Analysis and Clinical Evidence

[14:27-15:31]

• EMDR is recognized in multiple meta-analyses and has shown strong efficacy for PTSD, depression, and anxiety.

  “A 2014 meta-analysis of 26 randomized controlled trials found that EMDR significantly reduced PTSD symptoms with a large effect size...” (B, 14:27)

10. Experiencing EMDR Live (Demo On-Air)

[15:31-17:36]

• Dr. van der Kolk leads Steven through a mini-EMDR session around a recent unpleasant memory.
  • Steven rates the distress about 6–7/10 before; after a round of guided eye movement he reports:

  “It’s hard to recall why I was bothered...That is the weird stuff.” (B, 17:30; C, 17:36)

• Dr. van der Kolk notes EMDR works by bypassing language and directly reorganizing how the brain processes and stores trauma.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the persistence of trauma:

  “The experience of trauma is a visceral experience of heartbreak and gut wrench... So you don’t feel your body so much anymore, or you don’t feel your body so much. You don’t feel very alive either because you don’t feel so scared all the time.”
  – Bessel van der Kolk (C, 02:22)

• On the limitations of brain scans:

  “To some degree I think we learn a lot about the brain, but we don’t know much about the brain…our technology is very inadequate to really know about all the unbelievably complex connections to brainness.”
  – Bessel van der Kolk (C, 01:35)

• On the immediate effect of EMDR:

  “It’s hard to recall why I was bothered. It’s the best way to describe it.”
  – Steven Bartlett (B, 17:30)

• On EMDR’s surprising effectiveness:

  “Everybody who hears it, that’s crazy. And then people start doing it...and people, indeed...after a few sessions of EMDR, go like, yeah, that really sucked. But it’s over. It belongs to the past. It’s not happening right now.”
  – Bessel van der Kolk (C, 12:09)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Prevalence of trauma: 00:31–01:16
• How trauma changes the brain: 01:16–05:26
• Triggering and misfiring of the amygdala: 04:38–05:26
• Time perception and brain imaging: 07:14–09:21
• Reliving trauma, not remembering: 09:21–10:23
• Introduction to EMDR: 10:26–12:37
• How EMDR works neurologically: 12:37–13:54
• EMDR clinical results: 13:19–14:27
• Host tries EMDR: 15:31–17:36

Final Takeaway

This episode’s most replayed moment compellingly explains both the agony and hope in treating trauma. Dr. van der Kolk demystifies EMDR as a technique rooted in real neurobiological change, demonstrating—in real time—how even simple eye movements can allow trauma to be processed and left in the past.

To hear the full story and more life lessons, listen to the complete episode via the links shared by Steven Bartlett.