Most Replayed Moment: Chris Williamson Explains Why Finding Love Feels Harder Than Ever.

Summary

Podcast Title: The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Episode: Most Replayed Moment: Chris Williamson Explains Why Finding Love Feels Harder Than Ever
Host: Steven Bartlett
Guest: Chris Williamson
Release Date: June 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Diary Of A CEO, host Steven Bartlett engages in an in-depth conversation with Chris Williamson, delving into the complexities of modern relationships and the challenges individuals face in finding love today. The discussion navigates through societal shifts, gender dynamics, and the impact of educational and professional advancements on romantic relationships.

The Decline in Close Connections and Relationship Aspirations

[00:30] Chris Williamson begins by highlighting a critical insight: "One of the biggest levers, in fact, the single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have. It's more than quitting smoking, it's more than going to the gym. It's more than stopping drinking."

He emphasizes that 50% of men report not seeking a relationship, which signals a significant shift in societal behaviors and personal aspirations.

[00:45] Devil's Advocate probes further, questioning whether men are disinterested in women specifically or relationships in general. Chris Williamson clarifies, "For commitment, not actively pursuing any kind of interaction with women," revealing a broader disengagement from forming commitments altogether.

Changing Demographics and the Future of Relationships

[00:53] Business Leader interrupts to ask, "Oh, where did we go wrong?" prompting Chris Williamson to explore demographic changes impacting relationships.

Williamson presents startling statistics:

• 50.1% of women are mothers, and there are more childless women at 30 than women with children.
• A Morgan Stanley study projects that by 2040, 45% of 25 to 45-year-old women will be single and childless.

He questions, "If online dating was creating this perfect facilitation for relationships to start, how are we ending up with all of these outcomes?"

The Health Implications of Being Single

[01:43] Business Leader questions the significance of these trends, asking, "What's wrong with the outcomes?"

Chris Williamson responds emphatically: "There are people for whom a life without a partner is the right choice. That's absolutely something that I'm prepared to accept, but it's not most people." He underscores the health benefits of close relationships, stating, "It's the single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life... They have better health outcomes. They have onset of dementia later, they have Alzheimer's problems later on in life. They are less lonely."

Despite these benefits, both men and women are "retreating from relationships," adopting ideologies like "boss bitch culture" and "incel culture," which lead to societal fragmentation and reduced relationship aspirations.

Dissecting the Root Causes: Education and Employment Shifts

[04:12] Chris Williamson delves into the societal shifts contributing to the decline in relationships. He identifies the increase in female achievement in education and employment as a significant factor:

• Title IX changes have led to a 15 percentage point swing in higher education favoring women.
• By 2030, women aged 21-29 will earn £1,111 more than their male counterparts on average.
• 78% of women value a stable job in a partner, compared to 45% of men.

These disparities lead to an imbalance where "women are concerned about a partner's socioeconomic status significantly more than men," contributing to the phenomenon known as hypergamy—the female tendency to "date up and across."

The Tall Girl Problem and Hypergamy

Williamson introduces the concept of the Tall Girl Problem, highlighting how increasing female competence in education and employment narrows the eligible pool of men who match or exceed their status. This leads to:

• A smaller group of "turbocharged super performers" at the top of the dating pool.
• These high-value men become commitment-averse due to abundant options, often leading to "use and discard" behaviors that foster resentment among women.
• A vast number of men find themselves invisible in the dating landscape, feeling undervalued and overlooked.

He poignantly states, "This is the child with the ice cream," illustrating the challenges men face in maintaining relationships amidst overwhelming options.

Potential Solutions and Societal Compassion

[09:24] Chris Williamson is asked what he would do if tasked with addressing these challenges at a national level. He responds thoughtfully:

1. Maintain Progress in Women's Education and Employment: "The first thing that you don't do is roll back women's education and employment." He emphasizes that these advancements are beneficial and should not be curtailed.

2. Foster Compassion Over Competition: The discourse often pits men and women against each other as adversaries. Williamson advocates for "worthwhile compassion which is needed to both women and men," recognizing the struggles faced by both genders in the evolving dating landscape.

3. Address Emotional and Social Needs: Acknowledging that many women struggle to find eligible partners and many men feel invisible or undervalued, he stresses the importance of creating environments where both can thrive and seek meaningful connections without societal pressure or resentment.

Closing Thoughts

The conversation between Steven Bartlett and Chris Williamson offers a nuanced exploration of why finding love feels harder in today's world. By dissecting demographic shifts, educational and employment trends, and societal attitudes towards relationships, they uncover the multifaceted nature of modern romantic challenges. Williamson's insights call for a balanced approach that upholds the progress made in women's empowerment while fostering a compassionate and understanding environment for men, ultimately aiming to restore the foundations of meaningful human connections.

---

Notable Quotes

• Chris Williamson [00:30]: "The single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have."

• Chris Williamson [02:09]: "There are people for whom a life without a partner is the right choice. That's absolutely something that I'm prepared to accept, but it's not most people."

• Chris Williamson [04:12]: "Hypergamy, which is the female tendency to date up and across."

• Chris Williamson [09:24]: "The first thing that you don't do is roll back women's education and employment."

Conclusion

This episode serves as a critical examination of the intricate factors influencing today's dating scene. Chris Williamson's articulate analysis sheds light on the structural and societal changes reshaping how love and relationships are pursued, offering listeners valuable insights into navigating the complexities of modern romance.

---

Connect with Steven Bartlett:

• Instagram: @steven
• LinkedIn: Steven Bartlett
• New Book: Discover Here

---

Disclaimer: This summary focuses solely on the content-rich segments of the podcast, omitting advertisements and non-content sections to provide a clear and comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Metro Advertiser]

Going up, prices keep going up. These days it feels like being on an elevator that only goes up, going up. But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button. Going down, we've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40, period, that's 20% lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number. Only at Metro.

[Metro Legal Disclaimer]

Five year guarantee on eligible plans Exclusion supplies. See website for details. Not available Fab Metro with T Mobile in the past six months. Tax supplies.

[Chris Williamson]

One of the biggest levers, in fact, the single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have. It's more than quitting smoking, it's more than going to the gym. It's more than stopping drinking. 50% of men say that they are not looking for a relationship.

[Devil's Advocate]

When they say aren't looking for a relationship, do they mean I'm not looking for a woman or I'm not looking.

[Chris Williamson]

For commitment, not actively pursuing any kind of interaction with women.

[Business Leader]

Oh, where did we go wrong?

[Devil's Advocate]

And how do we go right, okay.

[Chris Williamson]

So 50.1% of women, for the first time in history are mothers. There are more childless women at 30 than there are women with children. Right. So for almost all of human history, more women had kids under the age of 30 than over. And now it's switched. There's a study from Morgan Stanley that says by 2040, 45% of 25 to 45 year old women will be single and childless. If online dating was creating this perfect facilitation for relationships to start, how are we ending up with all of these outcomes? That's the question.

[Business Leader]

What's wrong with the outcomes?

[Chris Williamson]

What do you mean? Why should people care about being single?

[Devil's Advocate]

All the stats you just said, I could look at them and say they're just sort of objectively neutral, like there's no adverse consequence to society or the world. It's fine that people aren't having kids. It's fine that people aren't having sex. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but like, what is the negative consequence of all of those outcomes that you've described? In your view.

[Chris Williamson]

There are people for whom a life without a partner is the right choice. That's absolutely something that I'm prepared to accept, but it's not most people. It's one of the biggest levers. In fact, the single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have. It's the number of friends. It's more than quitting Smoking. It's more than going to the gym, it's more than stopping drinking. It's the number of close friends that you've got. And a relationship is a big close friend. Robin Dunbar says that in order to get into a relationship, you have to sacrifice two friendships because you can have around about five very close friends. If you want to get into a relationship, you need to get rid of two of them because there is a minimum time investment. So people that are in relationships have better health outcomes. They have onset of dementia later, they have Alzheimer's problems later on in life. They are less lonely. That seems pretty uncontroversial. And yet both sides of the aisle, both men and women, are retreating from relationships and finding ways that they can justify this, you know, boss bitch culture. And sort of the lean in women's mentality or men going their own way. And incel culture and the black pill for guys are both ways that each sex is trying to deal with. With the challenges that are coming out of the mating market, both sexes are saying, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. I'm finding it so painful and difficult to be in this world that I'm just going to cast off any of it altogether and then retroactively come up with a lot of explanations that can justify why they didn't need to be in a relationship in any case. And for some people that's true, but for most people, that's not.

[Devil's Advocate]

Dating apps are clearly not, you know, as you say in your own words and previously aren't the only causal factor. So my question to you is, where did we go wrong and how do we go right?

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, so I think challenges in the mating market are coming from many directions. One of the main ones that will be pertinent to the people that are listening is, is the increase in female achievement in education and employment. Now, about 50 years ago, when Title IX came in, there was a 13 percentage point swing in favor of men to women in universities, there were significantly more men than women.

[Devil's Advocate]

What's Title ix?

[Chris Williamson]

It was an affirmative action policy that helped to get more women into higher education. 50 years later, 2023, it's a 15 percentage point swing between men and women in university. In the other direction, there are two women for every one man at a four year US college degree. Around about by 2030, women on average between the ages of 21 and 29 earn £1,111 more than their male counterparts. Women are roughly twice as likely as men to say that they will value financial Prospects in a partner. About 78% of women say that a stable job is something that is important for a partner to have. Whereas around about only sort of 45% of men say the same thing. For a man to increase his rating on a 10 point scale by two points, he requires around about a tenfold increase in his salary. For a woman to achieve the same 2 point improvement on a 10 point scale, a salary would need to increase by 10,000 times. My point being that women are they are concerned about a partner's socioeconomic status significantly more than men are. Now you can start to see that if you have a world in which women are attending university at high rates, they are achieving more success in employment, at least in that sort of 21 to 29 range, which is when most people are perhaps looking for potential partners. And yet the socioeconomic status of a partner to a woman is a big determinant of their level of attraction. You can start to see how this imbalance could cause a problem. Similarly, when we talk about education, a man with a master's degree on Tinder gets 90% more right swipes than a man with a bachelor's degree. So for all of the guys that are considering going and getting a master's degree, even if you think it's going to be useless, at least accept the fact that you get 90% more right swipes for the rest of your life or just lie about your masters. I don't know. All of this rolled together describes something called hypergamy, which is the female tendency to date up and across. On average, women want to date a man who is as educated or as employed as they are now. In a world in which, quite rightly, women have finally been able to achieve parity in education and employment and status and have independence and not be financially reliant on their partner. All the rest of it, that's great for them, but it does cause some challenges for their dating. And this is what I've called the tall girl problem. So everybody knows what it's like to have a girl friend who is six foot without heels. If you want to wear heels, you're looking at professional athletes. Because on average, women want to date a man who is at least as tall or a little bit taller than they are. So as women rise up through their own competence hierarchy in education and employment, they further shorten down the potential pool of eligible men that are as educated or more educated and as employed or more employed than they are. This is a challenge. This is just a straight up imbalance, right? What this causes is a very large group of men toward the bottom of this distribution to be essentially invisible to women. It causes a very large number of women in increasing cohorts to compete for an increasingly small group of turbocharged super performers at the top. These guys, the super high value guys, have a wealth of options. So they are commitment averse. Why would they decide to sit down with one girl for the rest of time when they have this wealth of options which can cause them to use and discard many of these women, which then causes most of these women to resent men overall. And then the guys that were forgotten at the bottom that say, well, hang on a second, I didn't use and discard you. I haven't even been seen by you. No, no. All men are, whatever it might be, right, that they are users and abusers, that we don't need them, that wear all of the good men at et cetera, et cetera. So big group of men that feel like they are good men that are invisible. There's a big portion of women who have finally managed to achieve educational and employment independence that are chasing after a smaller group of guys. These guys are commitment averse. I don't think it's necessarily good for them either. It's the child with the ice cream, right? Like guys being able to keep it in their pants when there's a lot of options on the table is going to be difficult for them too. This is one of the main drivers. This tall girl problem is a massive change, I think, in the dating dynamics.

[Devil's Advocate]

It obviously begs a question, Chris, which is if everything you've said is objectively correct and spot on and supported by the data, then how does. If I make Chris Williamson the Prime Minister or President of the world and I say your first job is to fix this challenge, what do you do?

[Chris Williamson]

The first thing that you don't do is roll back women's education and employment. And this is one of the problems with this discussion, right? The things that I've just said there are borne out in Pew Research data, Morgan Stanley results like these are incontrovertible facts, right? They are there. And any girl that is listening who earns more than £50,000 a year and has got a master's or above level education and is toward their late 30s or in the, toward their late 20s or in their 30s, 20 knows this problem. You know, the fact that you are struggling to find a man that you feel is eligible for you, right. That needs to be out there. The problem that happens around this discourse is that it posits men and women as adversaries and competitors of each other, right? As enemies. This means that worthwhile compassion which is needed to both women and men. If you're a woman who has gone through your education, you've dedicated yourself to achieving a degree, you know, your mother's generation wasn't able to achieve this. And you're the first person that's maybe gone to uni or got a bachelor's or got a master's or got a PhD and then you spend some time in a career grinding away and you now earn 150 grand a year. You think, right, I'm 31, I'd love to settle down. This would be amazing for me. Where are all of the men at? Hang on a second. And what you realize is that not only now are you competing with all of the other increasing cohort of women that are high achievers with status, employment and education, but you're also competing with a 21 year old barista who still lives at home with her parents for this small cohort of guys that requires sympathy for women. Okay? That is not a good position for women to be in. At the same time, this huge cohort of sexless men, 30% of men haven't had sex in the last year. 50% of men say that they are not looking for a relationship. You are a man. You have been through your twenties. You know the power of the male sex drive between the ages of 18 and 30. Can you imagine getting yourself into a situation where you say I'm not bothered about pursuing women? That is an unbelievably extreme statement for men to make. And they're self identifying as this in Pew Research data. This isn't on INCEL forums. This is Pew Research. 50% of men aren't looking for a relationship.

[Devil's Advocate]

When they say aren't looking for a relationship, do they mean I'm not looking for a woman or I'm not looking.

[Chris Williamson]

For commitment, not actively pursuing any kind of interaction with women.

[Devil's Advocate]

Oh shit.

[Chris Williamson]

Casual included. 50%.

[Business Leader]

It is a really interesting time to be running a business. Tariff and trade policies are in flux, the pace of innovation is relentless. And staying relevant means constantly reinventing how you operate. If your business can't adapt in real.

[Devil's Advocate]

Time, it risks falling behind, which means.

[Business Leader]

Leaders need complete clarity across every part of their operation at all times. This is what our sponsor, Netsuite by Oracle, Already delivers to 41,000 companies. NetSuite is an AI powered business management suite that brings accounting, financial management, HR and project planning into one platform. And because you've got this one source of truth. You can make fast decisions based on real time data. Or if you're looking ahead, NetSuite's forecasting tools give you a clear view of what's coming next and how to prepare for it. NetSuite helps you spot bottlenecks, manage your margins, and stay agile. So if your business is generating seven figures or more, download the free ebook, which is called navigating global trade. Three insights for [e-mail] Bartlett that's netsuite.com Bartlett.