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The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Most Replayed Moment: The Role of Dopamine in Addiction and Motivation - Anna Lembke
00:23:08
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- [00:00]
A
Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back in Disney's Freakier Friday. Yes.
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B
Yes.
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A
On August 8th, we switched bodies. I am freaking out right now. Let's pause and reframe. Get tickets now. Now, now, now for the ultimate movie event of the summer. I definitely don't know how to patch as an old person. What do they do? Talk about transitional lenses, home repairs, John Mayer, or, you know, Coldplay. Disney's Freakier Friday, in theaters August 8th. Get tickets now. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested.
- [00:34]
B
You wrote one of the most iconic, well known books about dopamine, which propelled the subject matter of dopamine into the public consciousness. But I guess the most important question I should ask you is why does dopamine matter?
- [00:49]
A
Ah, good question. Good, good place to start. I mean, dopamine matters because it's fundamental to our survival, right? So it's the chemical that we make in our brain that tells us this is something we should approach, explore, investigate. So it's really almost the survival chemical.
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B
So what is dopamine? If you had to explain it to a 10 year old, how would you go about explaining it?
- [01:14]
A
So dopamine is a chemical that we make in our brain. It has many different functions, but one of its most important functions is that it helps us experience pleasure, reward and motivation. It may be even more important for the motivation to do things than it is for the pleasure itself. So, for example, there's a very famous experiment in which rats were engineered to have no dopamine in the brain's reward pathway. And the scientists discovered that if they put food in the rat's mouth, the rat would eat the food would seem to get some pleasure from the food. If you can determine that from watching a rat eat, which I think they felt like they could, but if you put the food even a body length away, the rat will starve to death. The idea being that without dopamine, we're not motivated to seek out the things that we need for our basic survival.
- [02:14]
B
That's crazy. So you get a rat, you put the food an inch from its mouth and it will starve to death because it doesn't have dopamine. The dopamine required to just reach out and eat?
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A
Yeah, essentially. Maybe it's not an inch, maybe it's a little more than an inch. But the idea being that dopamine is necessary to be motivated to do the work, to get the thing that we need.
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B
And having an understanding of dopamine, how might that improve my life?
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A
Having a basic understanding of how dopamine works, how we process pleasure and pain. And also, what happens with dopamine as we go from adaptive recreational use to maladaptive addictive use is something that is really useful, especially for those of us living in the modern world, where now we're exposed to so many reinforcing substances and behaviors that we've all become vulnerable to the problem of addiction.
- [03:10]
B
And what are the biggest misconceptions on the subject of dopamine? Because it's kind of thrown around in society. I see it in my group chats, people saying, I need more dopamine or whatever, or that person just craves dopamine. What are the biggest misconceptions you've come across?
- [03:24]
A
The main misconception is that somehow we can get addicted to dopamine. We're not getting addicted to dopamine itself. Dopamine is neither good nor bad. It's a signal to tell us whether or not something that we're doing is potentially useful for our survival. And also it's related to what we predicted about how rewarding or pleasurable something would be. And so it's really, you know, I sort of. Sometimes I joke. It's like the reward theory of relativity. Dopamine is, in the sense that pleasure and pain really are truly relative to one another. And so dopamine gives us information about where we are in that relativity scale between pleasure and pain.
- [04:10]
B
And when you say relative, you mean. I mean, it's quite fitting for anyone that can't see we have a set of scales on the table, and scales are relative to each other, because if you pour in one end, the other end goes up, and if you pour in the other end, the other end goes up and this end goes down. And when you say relative, that's what you're describing, right?
- [04:27]
A
Yes, that's what I'm describing. Yes.
- [04:30]
B
Okay. And what activities that I do every day have an impact on my dopamine?
- [04:36]
A
Well, probably almost everything in some ways. I mean, every time we are doing something that's pleasurable, reinforcing, rewarding, that will affect dopamine. It's really the primary signal that lets us know that this thing is potentially important for our survival, as I mentioned. But even aversive stimuli can trigger dopamine.
- [05:03]
B
What's aversive?
- [05:04]
A
Oh, stimulating something that's painful or not pleasurable, dopamine gets involved in that equation. Anything that's novel or new is something that triggers dopamine in our reward pathway. Dopamine is fundamental for movement. So not just pleasure and reward, but also movement. So, for example, Parkinson's disease, which is a disease related to stiffness and tremor, is caused by a depletion of dopamine in a part of the brain called the substantia nigra. And as dopamine gets depleted in that part of the brain, people lose the ability to move their bodies. And it's probably no coincidence that the same neurotransmitter that is so important for pleasure, reward, motivation, is also really important for movement, because most organisms have to locomote toward the object of their desire. We want that thing. We have to exert effort, right? We have to put in the work to go get it. But in the world today, we really don't have to do that, right? We can swipe right, we can swipe left, and all of a sudden it magically appears at the touch of a finger. And that's very confusing for our brains because that's not how we evolved. We really evolved for having to do quite a bit of upfront work for a tiny little bit of reward.
- [06:25]
B
I just want to, before we move on, talk about this point you said, because I think it's quite foundational to everything we're going to talk about, about dopamine being relative to pain. And I have this set of scales in front of me, and here I have some chemicals that are likely to produce dopamine in my brain, I believe, right? So alcohol. I have some rum. I have some whiskey. I have some vodka. And can you explain to me, using this rum, whiskey, and vodka, how dopamine is relative to pain and what's going on in my brain?
- [06:56]
A
Sure.
- [06:57]
B
Okay, I'll slide this over to you.
- [06:58]
A
Oh, okay. So one of the most exciting findings in neuroscience in the past 75 years is that pleasure and pain are co located in the brain. So the same parts of the brain that process pleasure also process pain. And in a very simple reductionist kind of way, they work like opposite sides of a balance. So imagine that deep in your brain's reward pathway, which is another exciting discovery, right? That there's this dedicated reward pathway of the brain that consists, broadly speaking, of the prerequisite prefrontal cortex, which is this large gray matter area right behind our foreheads that's so important for future planning, for delayed gratification, for appreciating future consequences. You might think of it as like the brakes on the car if we're going to analogize to an engine. And then deep in the brain, we've got what we call the limbic areas, or the emotion brain. And there you have the nucleus accumbens and the ventral tegmental area that are rich in dopamine releasing neurons. Right. And they act like the accelerator on the car. So when you've got a healthy, functioning brain, you've got enough accelerator, but not too much. Right. So enough dopamine being released, but not too much, and you've got a healthy prefrontal cortex putting the brakes on that dopamine release. When people become addicted, there's either a problem with the brakes, the prefrontal cortex, or. Or the accelerator, the nucleus accumbens, and ventral tegmental area, or both. Right. What we're finding is that there's actually a disconnect. So there are large neuronal circuits and pathways between those deep limbic structures and the prefrontal cortex that literally gets severed or disconnected when people become addicted. As we think about pleasure and pain being co located in the same parts of the brain working like opposite sides of the balance, in order to understand what happens in the addicted brain is to appreciate that there are fundamental rules governing this balance. And one of the most important rules is that the balance wants to remain level. It does not want to be tilted very long to the side of either pleasure or pain. And in fact, what our brain does is first tilt an equal and opposite amount to whatever the initial stimulus is. So I'm gonna try to illustrate that here. So let's say our initial stimulus is alcohol. Now, alcohol works through its own chemical pathway. It works on our endogenous opioid system. The opioids that we make, we have receptors for opioids in our brains. It works on our endogenous GABA system, which is our calming neurotransmitter. And at the end of the day, it releases dopamine in the reward pathway. So any potentially addictive substance will release dopamine in the reward pathway. The more that's released, and the faster that's released, the. In a given individual, the more likely that substance is to be addictive. Now, another important concept here is what we call drug of choice, which is to say what releases a lot of dopamine in your brain may not release a lot of dopamine in my brain, and vice versa. Right. Which is this idea that people have predilections to different kinds of drugs. And by the way, people can get addicted to behaviors too. I should emphasize that when you say.
- [10:21]
B
Drug of choice, you mean the brain has a particular sensitivity to that drug in terms of dopamine?
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A
Yes.
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B
Okay.
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A
The more dopamine that's released, the faster that it's released, the more likely that drug is to be addictive for a given individual.
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B
So you're holding some whiskey there.
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A
I'm holding some whiskey.
- [10:38]
B
There could be a brain that is very sensitive to whiskey, and there could be a different brain that you could pull all the whiskey in you like. And the dopamine response is sort of limited.
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A
Exactly.
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B
Okay.
- [10:50]
A
And for many of my patients who become addicted to alcohol, they will tell you that from the first moment they had alcohol, they knew they were either in trouble or had met their best friend or some combination. It was a very potent experience for them. All right, so let's go ahead and put this on the pleasure side of the balance. Dopamine's being released, but no sooner has that happened than my brain will work very hard to restore a level balance. And by the way, a level balance is what neuroscientists call homeostasis. Okay. And one of the overarching physiologic drives for all living organisms is to return to homeostasis. Homeostasis is that parameter of what's often called affordances or states of being that are adaptive and healthy for the organism. For example, like, we have a certain homeostasis of body temperature, and if we go much too much beyond that, either too high or too low, we will disintegrate and die. Right. So homeostasis is that states of being that are compatible with existence and potentially advantageous, too.
- [11:57]
B
Sort of baseline level.
- [11:59]
A
That's right.
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B
Okay.
- [11:59]
A
Yeah, baseline level. And by the way, we're always releasing dopamine at a kind of tonic baseline level in our brains. I sometimes think of it as the heartbeat of the brain.
- [12:07]
B
So what's happened here for people that can't see is you poured a little bit of whiskey into one end of the scale, the pleasure side of the scale, and the other side of the scale has risen because now there's whiskey in the pleasure side, which I guess has released dopamine.
- [12:20]
A
Exactly. So now we've released dopamine in the reward pathway. Okay.
- [12:24]
B
Because the pain side went up, does that mean there's now less pain in the brain?
- [12:28]
A
Well, I think, you know, again, this is a metaphor. It's an oversimplification. The idea here is just when we press on the pleasure side, we're releasing dopamine in the reward pathway and experiencing pleasure.
- [12:39]
B
Okay.
- [12:40]
A
But no sooner has that happened than our brain will try to compensate or adapt to increased dopamine firing by down regulating dopamine transmission, for example, by involuting postsynaptic dopamine receptors.
- [12:54]
B
What does that mean.
- [12:55]
A
Okay. Okay. So our brain is a bunch of wires, you know, that conduct these electrical signals. And these long, spindly cells are called neurons. And the thing about neurons is that they don't actually touch end to end. There's a little G, or space between them. And that gap is called the synapse. And that gap or synapse, is bridged by what we call neurotransmitters. And dopamine is one of those neurotransmitters. Okay. And when the presynaptic neuron pulses and releases dopamine, it crosses the synapse and binds to a receptor on the postsynaptic neuron, which either continues or aborts that electrical signal. Does that make sense?
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B
Yes.
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A
Okay. So one of the ways that our brain can decrease the effects of dopamine, decreased dopamine transmission is by involuting or taking inside the neuron, the postsynaptic receptor. That way, when dopamine is released, it has nowhere to bind.
- [13:54]
B
Oh, okay. So it's like removing the docking station.
- [13:57]
A
Exactly. Okay. Very good. It's removing the docking station. So, essentially, getting back to our scale, we've ingested alcohol, we've increased dopamine firing in the reward pathway. But remember, our pleasure pain balance wants to return to the level position, level with the ground homeostasis. So it's going to decrease dopamine transmission by, for example, involuting those postsynaptic dopamine receptors. But one thing about the brain in its process of trying to get back to homeostasis. And again, I like to think of this neuroadaptation process as these gremlins hopping on the pain side of the balance to bring it level again. You don't have gremlins here. You have these little rocks. But let's go ahead and put a rock on the pain side of the balance. And the these rocks are our friends, right? Their job is to level the balance. Cause remember, we gotta go back to homeostasis. So I'm gonna put a rock on, and you're gonna see. Oh, my gosh. It overshot, Right? It. Now I've got it pressed down on the pain side of the balance. But that's exactly what happens in our brains in this process of neuroadaptation. Those gremlins hopping on the pain side of the balance don't get off. As soon as the balance is level. They stay on until we're tilted and equal and opposite amounts.
- [15:08]
B
So is that what a hangover is or a comedown, as they would say, when People take drugs, they say, I have a comedown.
- [15:15]
A
Exactly. That's exactly what it is. That's the hangover, the comedown, the blue Monday. Or on a much smaller scale, just that moment of craving, Right? That moment of wanting to have one more shot. Right.
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B
Why does it overshoot? Why can't it just perfectly hit homeostasis?
- [15:32]
A
Such a great question.
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B
Because then we'd feel fine.
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A
Yeah. Why did Mother Nature do that to us? So cruel, right?
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B
Yeah.
- [15:39]
A
Okay, I'm going to tell you an evolutionary just so story. What we mean by that is we don't really know why this mechanism exists. But from an evolutionary perspective, if you're living in a world of scarcity and ever present danger, this is the perfect mechanism to make sure that we're never satisfied with what we have, that we're always wanting more. It's made us the ultimate seekers.
- [16:07]
B
Okay. Because immediately after getting something, I'm now feeling a lack of pleasure and I'm at a deficit, you know, on the pain side of the scale, which means that I'm gonna go seeking out more dopamine. And in a world where everything is quite scarce, that could mean going on another four hour hunt the next day to go kill a gazelle or something.
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A
Perfect. Yeah, you got it.
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B
Perfect.
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A
Okay.
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B
Interesting.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, so that's gonna motivate me because this gets so. Jesus. People that have hangovers don't seem very motivated.
- [16:38]
A
Right? So now that's it. So why is that? Right. It's because alcohol is a product of human engineering that releases so much dopamine all at once in the reward pathway that our brains are reeling to compensate. Right. We really weren't evolved but for this much pleasure, with this much easy access. As you said yourself, we were really evolved to have to do quite a lot of work up front and to be hungry and to be lonely and to be tired and then get a little bit of reward that would then bring us back up to homeostasis. So really we were evolved to be pressing on the pain side of the balance in our effort to find pleasure. And then when we find it, that little bit of food or clothing or shelter or a mate would bring us back to the level position. Does that make sense?
- [17:33]
B
Yeah. So you're telling me essentially that we're all wired to be addicted, because if this is how our brain works in a world, it's designed to seek out more dopamine. But the problem we have now is we have all this synthetic dopamine effectively, like this, synthetic chemicals and synthetic things and you know, An Internet that is wiring us to give us so much dopamine so easily. That means that our brains are effectively like mismatched to the world that we live in and therefore wired to be addicted. Yeah, I think you actually said that. I found a quote you said in an interview where you said we are all wired to be addicted. And if you're not addicted yet, it's right around the corner.
- [18:12]
A
Right. Coming to a website near you. Yes, I guess I would qualify that a little bit by saying we're wired for survival in a world of scarcity. That's not the world we live in now. We live in a world of overwhelming overabundance. And so there is a mismatch between this ancient wiring that has us relentlessly pursuing pleasure in order to survive and a world that's so infused with pleasure and so many rewarding stimuli that now we're overwhelming our reward system and our brains are reeling in response to try to compensate.
- [18:47]
B
So what happens to this scale then? In such a world where I can get a big hit of dopamine all the time using some of these synthetic things or the Internet or pornography or whatever else, what's going on with this scale over and over again?
- [18:59]
A
Okay, great. So let me get there. Let me first say though, that remember, after we do something that's highly pleasurable, our brain compensates with neuroadaptation, tilting an equal and opposite amount to the side of pain and then restoring our balance back to the level position. Right? Or what we call homeostasis. So this doesn't last forever. Right. It's to pleasure, then it's to pain, then it's back to the level position. But if we continue to consume our drug of choice over days, to weeks, to months, to years, and we add in a whole bunch of other drugs, and now we're consuming, you know, pornography and smoking pot and eating donuts and, you know, you name it all at the same time. Then essentially what happens is those gremlins on the pain side of the balance end up camped out there for anyone that can't see.
- [19:54]
B
She put all of the rocks into the pain side to represent all of the addictive behaviors that this individual has now taken on.
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A
Right? And now we've entered addicted brain, by which I mean that we've changed our hedonic or joy set point to the side of pain. Now we need more and more of our drug in more potent forms. Not to get high and feel good, but just to level the balance and feel normal. And this is not going to be enough. To level the balance, I would have to, like, keep filling this much more than this container can hold. And that would be in pursuit, really, of just trying to level that balance so that we can feel normal. And when we're not using, we're walking around with a balance tilted toward the side of pain, experiencing the universal symptoms of withdrawal from any addictive substance or behavior, which are anxiety, irritability, insomnia, depression, and craving.
- [20:55]
B
So if I manage to get enough vodka, whiskey, rum, and pour it into the pleasure side of the scale, now that all the rocks are in the pain side of the scale, I managed to outweigh it, what would then happen?
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A
More rocks.
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B
More rocks would be added.
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A
Yes, more rocks.
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B
So momentarily, I would maybe be in a little bit of pleasure.
- [21:15]
A
Yes.
- [21:16]
B
But then my brain would remove those docking stations again, remove more of them, and more rocks would go in, and I'd slam down on the pain side again, which means I need more alcohol to try and get up to pleasure. Slam. Okay, so really, you wanna, like, dopamine fast or you need to just balance this? And this is so difficult because of the world we live in. It's almost. It's funnily enough. Cause this little scales experiment analogy here has given me a huge amount of empathy for people that are addicts.
- [21:45]
A
Oh, gosh, I'm so glad you said that. Because I think that is the key to empathy for the disease of addiction as well as for people with the disease. Having empathy for themselves is recognizing that on some level, it's out of their control. Right. Because when we are tilted to the side of pain, the overwhelming drive to restore a level balance or restore homeostasis as quickly as possible overwhelms any other rational thought about the consequences of my drug use. Right. It's just like, get back to the level position. Because if I do that, I'll at least feel temporarily better.
- [22:25]
B
What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.