← The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Most Replayed Moment: Your Excuses Will Destroy You, To Be Disciplined Is To Be Free!
00:24:02
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- [00:01]
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- [00:34]
Interviewer
And at 19 years old, you applied to be a Navy SEAL. Okay, so I have to ask a very dumb question here, which is, what is a Navy seal?
- [00:45]
Jocko Willink
So there's Special Operations, which I guess you know from England. This is the, the SAS and the sbs. So those are the two sort of units that we get compared to the most. And so a Navy SEAL is a part of the Navy, but you're the Special Operations component of the Navy. And the term SEAL is actually an acronym which stands for sea, air, and land. Because even though we're in the Navy, we are trained to operate in the sea. In the air. So in the sea, meaning we dive, in the air, meaning we parachute and repel, and then on the land, meaning we conduct land warfare operations. And you take all those things, combine them together, and that's what our job consists of.
- [01:31]
Interviewer
I was under the assumption that to become a Navy SEAL or to be in the SAS, you had to have 10, 20 years of military service. You had to have like an established military service. And then you get some, like, pop up on your computer and it says, like, come to this building over here. And so to hear that you applied at 19 years old, I was like, oh, I didn't know teenagers could apply.
- [01:50]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, no, I, I was 18 years old when I joined the Navy, and I joined on a contract that got me sent to SEAL training. And it took a year to get through. So I was 19 when I finished that up. But there is, there's always debates about, well, don't you want someone that's more experienced? And I actually loved the fact that I was basically raised in the SEAL teams. It was just awesome. It was an awesome way to grow up. It was an awesome way to spend those, those years of your life and learning the trade that you wanted to learn. And so I thought it was awesome. And I think it worked out pretty well. There is a. Usually the percentage of people that make it through SEAL training is about 20%. People that are under the age of 20, it goes down to about 5%. So yeah, I was one of those, like, small percentage of people that are very young but still make it through.
- [02:42]
Interviewer
And what is the characteristics that they're ultimately testing with the design of that training? What are they testing for?
- [02:49]
Jocko Willink
Will you keep going
- [02:52]
Interviewer
in the face of whatever? Well, they, they call the, one of the weeks Hell week, don't they? So they try and simulate hell by the sounds of it.
- [03:03]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, they try and simulate hell. It's, it's. They actually were trying to simulate combat initially when they created that week. They wanted to take as much combat simulation from World War II at the time and put it into a very compressed schedule so they could create these frogmen to go overseas and conduct operations because World War II was going on. And so they needed to compress the training cycle so they compressed a bunch of that combat simulation into it's about five and a half days, no sleep, lots of physical activity, lots of stress, lots of pain and, and lots of people quit.
- [03:41]
Interviewer
How many people quit in that particular week?
- [03:44]
Jocko Willink
I would say most of the people that quit, probably of. It's probably 80% of the quitters quit in that week.
- [03:56]
Interviewer
It's been long discussed. I think there's a book called Grit where they discuss what it takes in terms of character traits to get through these kinds of endurance tasks. And people often think it's those that have the biggest muscles or that do the most, I don't know, cardiovascular exercise. But from what you've observed, and this is maybe a broader point about adversity in life, is there any similarities in the people that are able to get themselves through adversity?
- [04:23]
Jocko Willink
There's some internal drive that you either have or you don't have. And if you have it, you won't quit. And if you don't have it, you're gonna quit and it breaks people. The other thing is, you might be an exceptional swimmer and you might be exceptional upper body strength, but you're not that fast of a runner. They're going to find that out. Or you might be a fast runner but a bad runner. They're going to find out what your weakness is. You might not like the cold, they're going to see it. You might not like the boat on your head, they're going to see it. They might see that you have a bad temper. They're going to find that and they're going to pick at that thing to either make you come out the other side or make you quit. It's a pretty, It's a pretty Amazing thing. It's a pretty. It's a pretty amazing thing. It's a pretty profound thing to look at from the outside and, and, and see it. Because when I was going through it, it was just sort of. I was young. I didn't care. I was gonna do it. There was nothing that they were gonna tell me that was gonna make me quit. I never thought about quitting if they told me to get back in the water again. Let's go. They told me to put that log on, on my shoulder. Let's go. Put the boat on my head. Let's go. I, I didn't care.
- [05:35]
Interviewer
Can you teach that that? Let's go. Let's. We're going to jump back in the water. Let's go.
- [05:41]
Jocko Willink
I think that. I think that's one of the few things that you learn in basic SEAL training, is to shrug your shoulders and go forward. Like, one of the things they do is they'll line you up on the ocean. This is in California. And sometimes people think that California is nice, warm water, but it's not. It's 55 degrees. And I don't know what that translates to in centigrade, but it's cold. And one of the things they do is they'll line you up and they say, interlock arms. And you get arm in arm with the guy next to you and they say, forward march. And you march in the water and they say, take seats. And you sit down and they leave you in there, and it's called surf torture. And you just sit there and they'll. After a while, they'll pull you up out of the water, they'll line you up, and the doctor will come down and see if anyone has hypothermia, and if no one has hypothermia or signs of hypothermia yet get back in the water. And they just keep doing that. And so, yeah, it's what you learn to do is, okay, I'm going to go forward. There's no. I can't get out of this. I'm going to go forward. I'm not going to quit, so I'm going to go forward. Bring it on. And I think if there's anything that you learn, it's to, to keep pushing through things that suck. And I would love to say, like, oh, keep pushing through adversity, but this isn't adversity. This is just things that suck. It's one level below adversity. Adversity is when you're having a challenge. This is just something that's going to suck, and you're going to have to push through it.
- [07:08]
Interviewer
You talked about the role that having a why plays. And I was thinking about, you know, if I just. If I just lost my girlfriend or someone, I'd gone through some severe rejection or someone in my life had died, and their part, my parting promise to them was I was going to do this. The role that having some kind of reason to carry on plays in how we handle adversity or things that suck. Did you see. Have you seen any patterns in that? Is it important? Because there's books behind me that literally say, start with your why and those kinds of things.
- [07:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And, you know, that's a. Anything from, oh, my girlfriend dumped me and I'm going to prove her wrong to something that much more significant, which is, my girlfriend died and I told her I was going to do this and I'm going to do it for her. Both those things, depending on the human being can be a strong enough I. A strong enough why to get through. And I have friends that were. I have one friend that was in the Vietnam. He was in Vietnam. And when he showed up SEAL training, he didn't know what it was. He thought he was volunteering to be like a diver, a diver that would do construction under. Under boats. He thought that what it was. And so he showed up and they're like, this is SEAL training. He's like, what's a seal? And they kind of explained it to him. And then he went and made it through all that torture, all that mayhem, and why? Because that was what they were telling him to do, and he was, okay, that's what we're doing. Let's go. So again, I would love to be able to, you know, give you this profound anchor that people need to have, but it's like, oh, do you want to do this or not? Which is what I think a lot of it boils down to, do you actually want to do this or not? Do you actually want to do this or not? Because if you actually want to do it, what's going to stop you? Nothing. And if you don't really want to do it, what's going to stop you? Just about anything that comes up, just about any obstacle that gets in your way becomes an excuse. It becomes a reason. It comes a rationale for not proceeding down that path. And this is interesting, too. When you talk to people that went to SEAL training that didn't make it, most of the time, it's some reason. There's a medical reason, there's A family problem. There's very few people that look at you and say, oh, I quit because it sucked. Which is what, by the way, which is what happens to the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people that don't make it through SEAL training. And by this I mean 80, 90% of the people that don't make it through SEAL training, they didn't make it through because they quit. Then there's a small percentage that had a medical problem. Then there's a small percentage that got performance dropped, meaning they couldn't perform the runs, the swims, the, the, the technical aspects of the job and they failed and they get dropped. But the vast majority of people, they quit. But they don't usually say that. And even in their mind, they probably don't believe it. They probably believe. Well, you know, it was my leg. And once my leg was hurting, I knew I was gonna have a hard time on the runs. And since I wasn't gonna be able to make the runs, I just, that's why I quit. But it wasn't really quitting. It was cause my leg. So it's, it's, it's. Like I said, it's a very, it's a very strange and really kind of a mystical thing.
- [10:20]
Interviewer
Excuses. You're talking there about people making excuses. What have you come to learn about the nature excuses? And if they are our friends, our enemies, if they're ever useful, your excuses
- [10:31]
Jocko Willink
will destroy you and take everything that you ever wanted from you if you let them.
- [10:37]
Interviewer
Doesn't sound like a friend.
- [10:38]
Jocko Willink
No, it's definitely not a friend. It's definitely not a friend. It can seem like a friend, just like your friend that keeps feeding you drinks at the bar can seem like a friend. But, but are they really helping you in any way, shape or form? No, they're not. They're not. So when your excuses make you feel a little bit better about the fact that you didn't execute on what you needed to execute on, then they can make you feel better. But they're not helping you. They're not helping you at all.
- [11:07]
Interviewer
Is that when you think about extreme ownership, which is the title of this book here in front of me, is, are excuses the opposite Excuses and blame? Is that the opposite of extreme ownership?
- [11:17]
Jocko Willink
That is the opposite of extreme ownership. Extreme, Extreme ownership is this went wrong, this failed, didn't accomplish this. And it's not the fault of my boss, it's not the fault of my girlfriend, it's not the fault of my parents, it's not the fault of the weather, it's my fault and I'm gonna take ownership of it and I'm gonna fix it. That's what extreme ownership is. And this is a very difficult thing to do because it hurts. Because when you look around at your life and you look around at your job and your financial situation and your relationship and your physical health, and when you look at all those things and all the problems that you may have with those things and you say, the reason I have all those problems is because of me, that can hurt, that can sting. And a lot of times our ego rejects that and makes excuses and lies, and then we don't have to change anything. And then nothing changes.
- [12:20]
Interviewer
If someone was on the extreme end of that disease of excuse and blame and all of those things, is there anything that you could do or you would advise them to do to kind of walk back from there to get over the other side? Cause I think we can all think of people in our lives, and maybe even ourselves at times, who have gotten into a chronic pattern of using excuses and blame as a form of self defense because we don't want to turn that mirror back at us and have to confront reality. Like, I think sometimes if I think about some of my closest friends, those that have the lowest self esteem will use excuses and blame the most because it's, you know, personal responsibility, might not, in the short term at least do anything for my already low self esteem. So I'm gonna blame the world as self defense. What's step one to get out of that?
- [13:13]
Jocko Willink
Well, unfortunately, what happens a lot, and you may or may not have seen this, but I would assume you've seen this at some point in your life. People, and this is a term, there's a term, it's rock bottom, right? This is a term that we hear for someone that's addicted, someone that's an alcoholic, someone that's physically let themselves go, someone that's put themselves into a situation with their finances or their work or whatever, where they reach rock bottom. And that, that rock bottom, what happens is you've, I believe what rock bottom is, is as you look around, all the excuses that you've made, they're not there anymore. And so now what rock bottom is, you realize that this problem, whether it's alcohol, whether it's your finances, the problem is you. And normally, or hopefully in the best case scenario, rock bottom is the beginning of the upward climb, the upward path. Sometimes rock bottom leads to disaster and complete abandonment of hope. But when the excuses all go away and people can actually confront the fact that this is all because of me and this is, it hurts, but is also unbelievably empowering. Because if these problems are because of me, then I'm capable of fixing these problems. So even though extreme ownership hurts and is painful, it's also liberating because now you have control over your fate and, and over your destiny. And that is a glorious thing.
- [14:55]
Interviewer
Discipline is freedom. It's the title of your book here. Discipline equals freedom. Now that seems like it's untrue. Because when people think of discipline, they think of rigidity and taking away their freedom, having to be disciplined. Why does discipline equal freedom?
- [15:19]
Jocko Willink
Because the more discipline you have in your life, the more freedom you will end up with. So if you lack the discipline to exercise and eat healthy, you will end up being a slave to disease. If you lack the discipline to to work hard, save your money, you will end up a slave to finances. If you lack the discipline to manage your time correctly, you will end up with no free time. If you have self discipline, if you have the discipline to save your money and work hard and invest your money properly, if you have the discipline to manage your time correctly and not waste a bunch of time, if you have the discipline to exercise and eat healthy, you will end up with freedom. And it's. I know it's a counterintuitive, it's contrarian, but I've seen this over and over and over again. If you want freedom in your life, you have to have discipline.
- [16:40]
Interviewer
There's going to be some kid listening to this. Now. I always think about the Personas that are listening and they are, you know, eating Doritos off their belly.
- [16:47]
Jocko Willink
Spit them out. Spit them out. Start now. Because if you're a kid right now and you're eating Doritos off your belly, I know they taste good and there's some immediate gratification and I get that. But I'm going to tell you, it starts right now. Throw that bag of Doritos away, get rid of it, go do some push ups, go spend $12 at the hardware store and hang up a pull up bar in your room and start doing pull ups. And if you can't do one pull up, hang on that bar and you're going to start to get a little bit stronger, you can start to get a little bit healthier, you start to get more focused, you're going to start to become more resilient and you're going to start to be able to do a pull up and you're going to start to eat healthy all the time. And you're going to start to understand the world better and you're going to start to progress in every aspect of your life. And you'll see that if you have that kind of discipline right now, you're going to end up with freedom. And if you don't have that kind of discipline and you keep eating those Doritos and you don't work hard and you don't exercise and you don't apply yourself, you're going to end up,
- [18:14]
Interviewer
you're
- [18:14]
Jocko Willink
going to end up shackled. You're going to end up shackled by a boss that you don't like, doing a job that you don't like to do with sicknesses and diseases that you don't want, relying on people that you can't even count on alone. And you don't have to. But if you have discipline, if you have discipline, you will attain freedom.
- [18:55]
Interviewer
And it starts with just spitting the Doritos out.
- [18:57]
Jocko Willink
Starts with spitting the Doritos out. Yes, indeed.
- [19:01]
Interviewer
One of the things you do, which is, I mean, you're super famous for it, is this idea of waking up early. Now I'm not someone that wakes up early.
- [19:08]
Jocko Willink
I know you, no alarm clock. And you're usually up by 11.
- [19:12]
Interviewer
So no meetings before 11. Okay, got it. I stay up quite late.
- [19:16]
Jocko Willink
Yep.
- [19:19]
Interviewer
What's the best case you could give me for changing that? And do I need to change that? Because I, what I, what I do is, you know, I flew into L. A, I'm jet lagged, I'm flying back in a couple of days, I'm going to be jet lagged when I land as well. So what I'm trying to do is just protect my sleep at all costs because I've come to learn that it's really the foundation of my performance. So if I, if I'm unslept and I show up at work, the chance that I'm not going to show up correctly in a variety of ways, emotionally, creatively, whatever is high. And that for me is the greatest risk. So I just, in the last sort of year or two of my life, I've just said, okay, prioritize sleep. Because then everything else seems to follow. But when I heard that you wake up sometimes at 4:45 or 4:30, like pretty much all the time. And I've literally seen you on social media, upload your alarm clock day after day after day. I go, shit, maybe I should rethink.
- [20:09]
Jocko Willink
No, I think if you're, if you've got a system that's working well, for you. And then I wouldn't change anything. Right. If you feel like you're performing well, you're physically healthy, you're getting all the work done that you need to do, you're a naturally, more of a late night, late morning type person. I'd run with it if you were telling me, yeah, sometimes I get up, sometimes I don't, sometimes I work late, sometimes I don't, I'm not, don't work out every day, you know. You know, sometimes I feel groggy. If you were telling me that kind of thing, I'd say, okay, pick a time and start waking up at that time every day. Doesn't have to be 4:40, it could be 8 o', clock, could be 7 o', clock, doesn't matter, could be 11 o'. Clock. But try and go to bed around the same time and try and wake up around the same time and that's going to be a great foundation for everything that you're doing. And I would say when you wake up in the morning, do some kind of exercise because I think that is very helpful in getting your day started correctly.
- [21:08]
Interviewer
What are your non negotiables in your life in terms of habits, routines, disciplines?
- [21:13]
Jocko Willink
I wake up early and I work out every day. That's, that's kind of my. That's, that's, those are the minimum requirements in my life. Train Jiu Jitsu. I, I don't get to chain train Jiu Jitsu every single day, but if I can train Jiu Jitsu, I'm gonna train Jiu Jitsu. I'm gonna work out every day. If I can surf, I'm gonna surf. You know, I, I obviously have to work every day. I work every day doing something. You know, I've got a bunch of different companies I gotta write, books, podcasts, so I work every day.
- [21:51]
Interviewer
Are you ever undisciplined?
- [21:53]
Jocko Willink
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Chocolate chip cookies. They're a discipline lapse for me. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm not a cyborg.
- [22:07]
Interviewer
Struggle sucks.
- [22:11]
Jocko Willink
Depends on how you frame it, right? Depends on how you frame it.
- [22:19]
Interviewer
Because I'm thinking about you, the beach, you know, and they say, walk out, jocko. Link arms and walk out. You describe that as sucking.
- [22:26]
Jocko Willink
Yep.
- [22:29]
Interviewer
But what you're also saying is there's huge value in things that suck. On the other side of something that sucks is something worth cherishing.
- [22:37]
Jocko Willink
I would say not just huge value, but the value. The value. You want to know if you're a, you're talking about young men that might not have Any direction right now. Go. Go do something that's hard. Go try and accomplish something that's hard. You may win, you may lose, you may succeed, you may fail. I'll tell you what, you'll be better if you avoid those things that are hard. If you don't accept that challenge, if you don't step up and step into that cold water and you sit on your couch and eat Doritos, I can tell you this is not a good move. This is not a good move. Don't do that. Don't do that. Just get up. Move towards that challenge, whatever that challenge is, move towards that challenge and go attack it. And you may be successful, and you may not be successful, but you will be better. And the next challenge you're gonna be more prepared for. And the next challenge after that you're gonna be even more prepared for. And you're gonna fail. And you're gonna fail, and you're gonna fail, and you're gonna fail. And then you're gonna win. And that's life. Life. Without those challenges, it's just existence. Don't just exist. Go live.
- [24:19]
Interviewer
What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.
- [24:34]
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