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The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
MrBallen (Former Navy SEAL): I Wasn't Sleeping, I Became A Raging Alcoholic! I Was Disowned By The SEALS! This Will Turn Your Life Around In 2025!
02:04:15
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- [00:00]
A
I was in Afghanistan in 2014 as a Navy SEAL. We're in the middle of this gunfight, and a grenade came over the wall and it detonated. And I'm waiting to either be shot by the enemy or I'm going to bleed to death. And all that was running through my head was. And that's the way I think people should look at their lives.
- [00:17]
B
It's so interesting because I've never actually heard someone give that kind of advice before. Mr. Bullen is a former Navy Seal turned master storyteller and content creator who uses his battlefield experiences and personal failures to inspire, educate, and help people overcome.
- [00:30]
A
Challenges to achieve their goals. My family were very successful people with Pulitzer Prizes, Ph.D. and then there's me getting into street fights and about to get expelled. But it took becoming a colossal failure to realize that if you want to fix this, you have to start with saying, it's my fault and then do something about it. But then fear becomes the thing keeping people from doing it. It's the very select number of people in this life say, I'm gonna still do that thing that scares the out of me, that have the best and most fulfilling life. And so I decided to become a Navy SEAL because it was only a really small percent that make it through the grueling, mentally torturing training.
- [01:02]
B
And what's the similarities that you noticed.
- [01:03]
A
Between that made it two words? It's. But then I realized the reality of the job. You kill people. And I had really leaned into being as like, alpha as I possibly could be. But there were just some things that I did, and I just, I struggled so, so bad. I had to face my demons.
- [01:21]
B
What have you learned about dealing with demons?
- [01:23]
A
If you begin to have those thoughts, the only way I have found to sort of cope with them is.
- [01:33]
B
I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening to this, I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make this show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps. When you hit that subscribe button, the show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see, and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, Wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode. John.
- [02:16]
A
Yes.
- [02:17]
B
There are clues in your early context that suggest you might have walked the path that you've walked in your life. But there's also clues that suggest you absolutely would never have done what you've done.
- [02:26]
A
Yeah.
- [02:27]
B
So taking me back to that early context.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah.
- [02:30]
B
What do I need to know about that environment, the influences of that environment to understand how you ended up where you are today?
- [02:36]
A
I think it all starts with, you know, the family I was born into were, like, very successful academic people. So I was born in a town called Quincy, Massachusetts. It's just south of Boston, Mass. And, you know, my mother, father, and two sisters are like brilliant minds in the academic sense of the word. Just brilliant. One of my sisters has gone on to win two Pulitzer Prizes. My dad's won a Pulitzer Prize. This is not even flex, but to give you a sense of the people in my life, my other sister has a PhD and she worked out of a Harvard lab. My mom is a professional writer. And then there's me. When I was growing up, I could have done well in school, you know, but I didn't want to. It was sort of like my form of rebellion was being a bad student willfully, and I would, like, go out and party with my friends and just was like, trying to be sort of like a bad kid in a way. And also, like, the town I grew up in was sort of a. It was not a place where academics really thrived. It's like a really working class, like, hard and tough place. I mean, Quincy's becoming much, much nicer. But it was a little bit of a tough place. And I sort of wanted to be like an edgy, like, tough guy. And so I'd, like, get into street fight, get my ass kicked, and I'd stay out drinking with my friends. But what it did is it set me up for colossal failure by the time I got to college. I got into college because my mom, the professional writer, wrote my college essay, and my grades were horrible in high school. In fact, so bad that when I sent off my application, the school got in touch with me, and they were like, hey, your grades are not really what we're looking for. But, boy, that essay was so beautiful. We're going to give you a chance. And so I get into college. I go to the University of Massachusetts out in Western Mass. It's like where a lot of Kids where I was growing up, that's where they went to school. It's a big party school. And I just immediately bombed. First semester. Like I got a 1.016 GPA, which it should have been about zero. I basically didn't go to class. I was involved in this riot. So at some point, our football team, which was a team that no one cared about, even the people who went to the school, we didn't care about it. No offense to the Minutemen, they're very good now, but at the time in 2006, they weren't. They made it to like this conference game or something. This is like not big time D1. This is like D1AA. It's like very high level football, but not going to be on TV or anything. And the college, the student body, again, they don't really care about the football team. But for some reason, when they lost this game, it just like instilled this need to riot on campus. And it was like concentrated in this one area of campus where I happened to live. And I, like went out there and I was like breaking windows and being this horrible kid and the security cameras everywhere recording you. And it got to the point where at the end of the semester, there was like this witch hunt to find the people that had been involved in this riot. And there was like, the website had posted, the college police website had posted all these images of just faces of people in the crowd that were a part of it. And anybody could anonymously name people if they saw them. And it was like everybody got expelled. And I found pictures of me and I just got my grades back. 1.016. And at the same time, I've been telling my brilliant parents, yeah, I'm doing great in school, things are going really well, getting good grades. And I had to tell them, like, actually it's the opposite. And I'm probably gonna get expelled if I don't withdraw. So my dad comes out to the school and he like sits down with the dean, who also says, John has all these violations of living in the dorm, like noise complaints and being a jerk, that we're gonna kick him out of the dorms. Even if he stays at the school, he has to live off campus. And my mom and dad are like, you're coming home. We're done with this. Like, you're an adult and you can either like live at home and go to school or get a job, but, like, you're gonna be an adult. And so I come home at what age I was 18.
- [06:27]
B
18.
- [06:27]
A
So I come home and I was living in my mom's basement in Quincy. And I remember the first couple of weeks I was home, I. I actually felt mad at my parents. Like, how dare they make me withdraw from the school. Even though there's all this information that like, it's completely my fault. But I had like an epiphany when I was literally in my mom's basement when I sort of realized, like, oh, this is my fault. Like, I have created like a habit pattern and a way of thinking that's put me in my mom's basement with no direction. Like, I've been gifted all these opportunities that I've squandered. And something sort of changed in my head where it was like, I don't want to be a screw up. I don't want to be that. I'm looking at my family members as being so successful. And I just was like, I can't be that. I'm suddenly becoming self aware that that's the path I'm on. I'm going to be the guy that like floundered everything and didn't amount to anything. And so I just made it simple. I was like, I'm just going to go to a local school, get good grades and graduate from college. That's going to be my focus for now. And I did that. I went to a local school, I got my grades up. I actually transferred back to the school that I withdrew from to finish out my couple of years in college. But it was like a drug, like having a goal that I was working towards, like doing something that was worth my time and like studying hard. I was like struggling with school, but I worked so hard. I was in the library all the time, like feeling, like getting to feel what it feels like to be working towards a goal and achieving it was like really addictive for me. And so by the time I was like in my last year in college, I actually ironically had no clue what I would do post college. It was sort of like, well, the goal was just to graduate college. I don't really have a clue what's next. And I thought about briefly becoming a lawyer or something because I was studying philosophy and English because I like those two subjects and they sort of fit the mold. But I had always sort of had this draw, this calling to serve in the military because some friends of mine in high school went off to serve in the military in 2006. Like they went to Iraq and Afghanistan. But I wanted to do something really hard in the military because I needed like a big Goal, you know, and it like graduating college was this goal that I had achieved. And I was like, I want to do something hard in the military. And that's when I got turned on to the SEAL teams. And the cool thing about the Navy SEAL teams is virtually anybody can apply to be a seal. You know, you have to, like, have the right physical fitness, you have to be a citizen. There's a few things but basically anybody can try out. But it's only those who survived the training that become seals. And it's a really small percentage of people. And it just really was the thing that was like, wait a minute, if I do that, if I go through like this baptism of going through this rigorous training, I'll become a guy that will no longer be viewed as like the screw up in high school who sort of got it together with college. I'll be able to reinvent myself, I'll be able to serve in the military, which is something I felt the calling to do. It's a career that I can kind of progress into and it's a big fricking challenge that's going to require a whole bunch of training and prep before I get to go. And so I kind of just shifted my goal from graduate college to become a Navy seal and everything fell in line. And then naturally after that I became a YouTuber, which is an even longer story. But basically I, yeah, became a seal and then I got hurt, medically, retired, and then I basically posted something online that went viral and I loved telling stories, as you can see from this long intro. And I just kept telling stories and now I'm here, so. But it started with like setting a goal and achieving it and it's. Which sounds so basic, but I think a lot of people go through life just sort of doing stuff because they were told to or they just sort of fell into it. I found, like setting a goal that's really consciously something you care about for whatever reason and working hard to achieve it, it like organizes your whole life. And so my life, starting with coming home from college and being in the basement, has been a series of set a goal and shoot for that goal. And that's all that matters.
- [10:25]
B
It's interesting because even before that, there was something that seemed to happen to you in that basement, which I consider to be the starting place, which is awareness. Yeah, this like self awareness. And with that self awareness came responsibility. You said, actually I need to stop blaming my mum and dad. Yeah, I have a role to play in this.
- [10:44]
A
Yeah.
- [10:44]
B
And that's really, really hard For a lot of, I think for everybody to be truly aware of how you might be contributing to the circumstances of your own life.
- [10:52]
A
It's a harsh truth when you realize it's your fault or a big part of it is your fault. But that's what self awareness is like, taking responsibility for the good and the bad.
- [11:00]
B
And what's your relationship been like with responsibility and what's your view on the importance of that?
- [11:05]
A
Broadly, I would say that when I was pre basement moment, I was definitely in the mindset of playing the victim and if something bad happened, it was somebody else's fault and not taking responsibility for anything. I was the guy that would come home from school and I'd tell my mom, like, you wouldn't believe that. We had a test today and Joey got a 50. I got a 65, but Joey got a 50. It's like you're sort of like, that's the way you approach it versus, like, I failed the test. But when I sort of decided I would graduate college and organize my life around that and then become a seal, I realized that it's not enough to simply just say, I'm going to do this thing. Like, you need to own the entire process. And for example, in SEAL training, there were a couple moments where like, I myself failed miserably, catastrophically at like, tests and opportunities to be a leader. And I just like, squandered it in a way. So the way SEAL training works is it's very reputational. Like, as you go along in training, you know, it's like the closer you get to graduation, the closer you get to being a real SEAL. And so your instructors, those are active duty SEALs, and they're no longer viewing you towards the end of training as being just some like, oh, candidate. Now it's like, you could be my teammate. There's not too many of us. And so it changes from you aren't going to make it to, you better do a good job because I might need your help down the line. And I remember in the final part of training, there's this confidence exercise where they basically expose your class to tear gas, which is something that's pretty standard in the military. And the only thing they say is, like, this is a, like, it's all about mentality here. It's a confidence booster. It's going to suck. It's going to make you want to feel like you're dying from this gas. And it's like a long exposure. And they set you up in this, like, square. You're all just standing you're kneeling shoulder to shoulder, if you will, out in this open field on San Clemente island in California. And all the instructors have their gas masks on, and they have these pool sticks like that. You would swap, like, trash out of a pool. But at the end, they have the CS grenade canisters, and they're like, all right. They put their masks on, they fire off these CS grenades, this big white smoke comes out, and they hold out the pole, and you just. You get covered in CS gas and the whole. All you have to do is not run. Just stay here and take it. That's the whole point. And I ran. It was like a fight or flight instinct completely. It was like, before I. And it was instant. It wasn't like, oh, this is really bad. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? It was like, instantaneously I ran. I had to get tackled by one of the instructors. Cause I was just out. I wasn't even thinking. It was like. And nobody else ran. This is the end of training. And so afterwards, it's like I was brought into the amphitheater. There's this little theater where they would teach us classes about ordinance and whatever. And they were like, alan, stand up. And all my peers know I did this. All the instructors know I did this. And he just goes. The main instructor, he's like, alan, you're a fucking pussy. Sit down. He goes, you're a fucking pussy. And I never want to serve with you. And neither should your classmates. Sit down. And that was it. And I had to, from that point on, for the rest of training, wear these. Like, it's almost like a bikini over my shorts. And it was like, the worst moment ever because I've made it so far into training. But I knew. And also, by the way, at this point, we weren't even home. I wasn't able to go home. See my wife. We're out at this island for a month. You don't. You work seven days a week. You are in training until you're done. And the only choice was, like, own the fact that you did that. Don't make excuses for it. Like, let this show people my actual strength. Which seems funny because I did the thing I'm not supposed to do, but instead of, like, running from it, literally own it. Take responsibility for what you did and show people that, you know what? I'm prepared to show up for work every day wearing these fucking trunks and be looked at as a lesser than. To demonstrate that I'm not.
- [15:09]
B
There's something really important in that that's really also critical to business, but just really critical to anyone that's a professional or in a relationship, which is if you make a mistake, you get the second opportunity, which is how you respond to the mistake you made.
- [15:23]
A
Absolutely.
- [15:23]
B
And, in fact, so many times in business, you know, when I was running a marketing business, we'd have clients, and we might drop the ball in some way, but we could actually make the relationship stronger than it was before the mistake by how we responded. So making a quick phone call, apologizing, taking responsibility. Yeah.
- [15:40]
A
I mean, I think that there definitely were some people that did carry that sort of, like, stigma into the teams, because right after we finished this, we kind of went into the SEAL teams. But I do think that there was definitely some people that. And I'm not even tooting my own horn. I really think this happened that, as a result of that moment, knew they could trust that I was prepared to sort of like, I'm gonna take responsibility for me. I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna be the best team that I can be. Even at my lowest, you're still gonna get the best version of me. And that doesn't mean I think I'm better than anybody else. It just means I'm an adult. And I think that's a big part of being an adult, is responsibility, is ultimately owning those mistakes. And sometimes your mistakes are painful and public and awful, and that's the most important time to own them. And like you said, like, that's your opportunity in some ways, not just to rectify the mistake, but to become a stronger, better version of yourself. And I think that my mistake in college was a series of mistakes. My first semester of screwing it up and getting sent back home. But it was only when I recognized that it was my fault and I had to own that, that I was able to graduate college and try to become a Navy seal, and then in the process, like, have the CS grenade happen. But in some ways, that made me a better seal, you know? So I think that, like, in failure comes the best opportunity for success, which is something that I certainly didn't coin, but it's the truth.
- [16:55]
B
What is the Navy SEALs? Because, you know, around the world, I think people are aware of the term Navy seals.
- [17:00]
A
Sure.
- [17:01]
B
But we don't actually know fully what it is.
- [17:03]
A
Yeah. So every branch of. I think basically every military in the world. This is a broad generalization, but it's usually the case that virtually every branch of every military has some form of specialized unit that Carries out special operations. It's the stuff that the Call of Duty, video games and modern Warfare, those are based on the idea of specialized combat units that go out and do these kind of difficult and high stakes missions. And so in the US you have the army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Coast Guard and the Air Force. And each of them have their respective special operations divisions. You have Marine Special Operations Marines, you have the PJs, the pararescue jumpers, and the Air Force. There's multiple. But of all these special operations units in America, of all the different branches, you could make the case that the most, and I get some flack from people that disagree with me the most, let's just say well known and potentially most skilled. And I say that carefully because of course there are other groups like the Green Berets who are incredible at certain things. But the most skilled at multiple disciplines is very likely the Navy SEAL teams. And it's because the acronym SEAL stands for Sea, air, land, so S E and A L. The idea is, even though it's under the Navy, which is sort of like maritime and water, the reality is that the SEAL teams are a special operations group that can insert into virtually any environment, sea, air or land. They can also use multiple insertion platforms, whether it's diving, jumping, going in on land. It's like a highly versatile special operations group. Whereas a lot of the other special operations groups, not just in the United States but internationally, are kind of specialized in certain geographies. Like you have mountain warfare specialists, you have like the Dutch have this incredible diving unit. But the seals are like, we do everything. And they also sort of came into prominence. They started in the 60s under JFK. They really came into prominence post 911 because they were being sent out into the Middle east, which is, you know, it's a landlocked place. But this Navy Special operations unit was being very successful carrying out, you know, kinetic operations all across the Middle East, East. So it's like a very famous Jack of All Trade Special operations group that especially after the Bin Laden raid as well, that sort of made them celebrities. But even before that they were very well known as like the Jack of All Trade Special Operations Group.
- [19:32]
B
And how long is training? How long does it take to get through training and pass the other end?
- [19:36]
A
Broadly speaking, I would say it takes about two years, but realistically it takes a little bit longer. So you have. There's two ways to become a seal. You either go in as an enlisted person. So there's the enlisted component of the military, which is somebody basically without a college degree who just raises their hand and just serves. That's the grunts of the world. Those are the enlisted community. And then you have the officer side, which is somebody who at a minimum, needs to have a college degree to apply. You go to officer school, and in the SEAL teams, there's a tiny, tiny number of officer SEALs and a massive number of enlisted SEALs. But there are two very different pathways into training. If you go the officer route, it's practically like a political appointment just to get an opportunity. Like, it's so, so difficult to even get a chance to try out that what you get. And it's because there's just like a handful of spots available that's. That's really all it was. So you have all these people on the enlisted side who actually have college degrees and could easily, like, become an officer in the military who, let's say, have other opportunities that they could pursue with their college degree, but they want to be a seal. And so you have this big number of people that are electing to go be enlisted to try out to be seals. And that's important because it makes the enlisted side super competitive. You have, like, these professional athletes and you have, like, Olympians and you have, like, the best college athletes, and you have MMA fighters and wrestlers. And then like, the random people like me who have no resume and you all just show up for the class in San Diego that technically is six months long. But there's like, before you even joined the Navy, you need to basically compete for a spot to even have a chance to try out. And there's a whole application process before you've joined the Navy. That can take years. And then let's say you get your chance as an enlisted person. They're like, okay, you're gonna get a chance to go. Well, first you gotta go to boot camp. That's two months in Chicago. And technically you can fail out of it, but really you won't. It's sort of like a suck it up and get through it. But then at the end of boot camp, at least when I went through, you go to this other school, which is like a prep school, it's another two months in Chicago. Mind you, you haven't even started training yet. This is like potentially a year of pre Navy. And now you're four months into, like, you're in the Navy, but you're not really in SEAL training yet. You go to this prep school where you, like, learn how to swim and run. You already know how to do these things, but Professional coaches work with you. The Navy invests a lot of money in getting you really strengthened up and mentally strengthened. Because following the prep school, you go to San Diego, where you go through what's regarded as, like, the hardest part of SEAL training, which is a. It's called Budds B U D S and it stands for Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL School. And it's basically imagine whatever you think of as boot camp, like military boot camp. Make it not two months long, but six months long, because most boot camps are about two and make it like a thousand times more difficult. It's really the same concepts. It's like intense, grueling, physical, emotional and mental, like torture for six months. And that's the part where everybody fails out and drops out. That's like the. If you made a movie about SEAL training, you'd really only focus on the six months of Bud's training. And in fact, you'd only focus on the first two months because that's the most physically challenging. And then once you finish that, you go to advanced training, which you're still not a SEAL yet. It's another six months of, like, learning how to actually do the job. So BUDS is like, can you handle it? Advanced training or SEAL qualification? Training is I'm going to teach you how to shoot a gun with surgical precision. I'm going to teach you how to jump out of a plane. I'm going to teach you how to, like, use this technology. Because you need to know how to do the job. So learn the job. And then after that you'll go to like, or we did, anyways. I don't know if they do this now. You go to, like, a language school for a month, or you'll go to, like, a medical school or some sort of school to give you additional qualifications. And then you go to your team. And so all told, you have about two years from I want to be a Navy SEAL to I am now a Navy seal. Two years is usually the mark.
- [23:16]
B
And what's the similarities that you notice between the people that made it and didn't?
- [23:19]
A
The thing that stands out, honestly, and this is what is pretty universally true, although there's some outliers, is the folks who show up to buds, the candidates who show up to buds that have, like, an incredible resume. There was a guy that showed up to training who literally played for the Arizona diamondbacks. He's like 6 foot 5, looks just like a God, and he's so humble. Like, he's this big, strong professional baseball player who I actually have a memory Specifically of playing with his character in a video game. And, like, there's. There's other people who are like, professional football players and all that. And he washed out so quick. And a lot of the other guys with big resumes, like the sports and big accomplishments, they typically wash out really, really quickly. And it's not because they lack the physical to do it. They don't. They definitely don't. It's that if. And this is generalizing, because this is not true of everybody. But let's take the guy who played for the Diamondbacks. So this person is used to being, generally speaking, the very best person at what they do their whole lives. And it's not because there's anything wrong with them. It's just sort of a truth. That's how you became a professional baseball player. That's how it works in buds. Your instructors don't fucking care about who you were. And it's like a point they make. They don't care at all about what you've done before. In fact, if they even suspect that you think you're special because you have some bullet point on your resume, like playing for the Diamondbacks, they will torture you and see if you really got it. They will single you out and specifically make you feel terrible and tell your class to, like, look at this guy. You can't even do pushups. You play for the Diamondbacks. You can't even do pushups, even though the guy's doing pushups just fine. But he's like, that doesn't even count. That doesn't get. Do another one. Get in the water, do this, do that. It's a mind game. But the guys like me who I went to buds, and I'm like, I literally am a joke compared to the people that are here. I wasn't in great shape relative to my peers. I'm certainly not a professional athlete. The only thing on my resume is, well, I nearly flunked out of college, but then managed to graduate college. That is the extent of my resume. I played a little baseball in high school, and so for me, I have very little to lose. Like, either I'll make it, and that'll be amazing, and I'll get to do the thing I want to do, or I won't. And people will say, that's about right. The folks that go in that have the resumes, on some level, they expect to be really good, even if they're humble. And everybody in their personal lives also expects them to make it through, because who wouldn't? He played for the Diamondbacks expectation, it's brutal and the course is too long to simply gut your way through it. The level of physical discomfort that you experience in buds is so unbelievably high that it's not. You gotta wanna be here. That's the way they say it. You gotta wanna be here if you wanna make it through. It's. You need to have something to hold onto in your brain that overrides the discomfort. And it can't be, oh, I need to make everybody else happy. I need to live up to expectations. Maybe that's strong enough for you. For most people, it's not like, when you are at your absolute lowest, what do you hold onto? And it's. For people like me, it was like, I have to prove myself to myself. I wanna prove to myself that I can do this hard thing. Like, it was not even about serving in the military. It was accomplishing this goal because I've set my mind to it and I wanna believe that I'm the guy that can set goals that are hard and achieve them. And so in my worst moments, I would go to that place where I'm like, this is worth it to me. But for other guys it's not. And so at the end, when you graduate, you look around and it's like a ragtag group of like short, sort of weird looking guys that don't in any way embody like what you would think of as like. I mean, some guys do, some guys are unbelievable studs. But it's like a ragtag group of guys that just didn't quit. And a lot of it is because they had some sort of chip on their shoulder that internally drove them and it allowed them to persevere when things got so bad. Because things get so bad in butts.
- [27:18]
B
If I were to meet the guy in his mother's basement and then meet the guy who qualified from the SEALs training.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
In terms of their mentality, like their psychology, how would they be different? What is it? What evidence does the guy that graduated from SEAL training have that the other guy doesn't have? What is that? What's the difference?
- [27:37]
A
I mean, not just to like shamelessly cycle back to this idea of responsibility, but I'm gonna do that. Before when I first got to the basement, I've just arrived, I was really not even able to see what a mess I had made of my life. It wasn't like I knew I had screwed up and was blaming other people. It was more like my default setting was, this is somebody else's fault. Somebody did this to me, like, I actively remember being furious with my mom and dad for making me withdraw from college when I literally was about to get expelled. I had a terrible gpa. I couldn't afford to live in the, in the dorms. I had. I had shown no, there was no evidence to suggest I would succeed in college. It wasn't until I was like home in the basement and the sort of like living in my mom's basement with no direction that I, it just sort of naturally happened. I was like, wait a minute, it's you. It's not them, it's you. And it seems so obvious now, but it took falling to the bottom. And also, by the way, kudos to my mom, who's a single mom. She didn't give an F. She was not like, don't worry, you'll figure it out. She was like, no, you're going to get a job or you're going to move out or whatever and you're also going to pay rent while you're here. And that's it. Like, this is your fault. And at first I'm mad, but it's sort of like it became this arduous thing I had to overcome. So it was like no self awareness, none. And genuinely blaming the world for my problems to like probably if anything, an extreme on the other side where like, if you haven't already noticed, I'm like talking about the CS gas thing that I mentioned to you earlier. That's something that if that happened to other people, I don't know if they'd talk about it on such a public platform, especially just in our, in the SEAL community, like reputation is such a big thing that even talking about things that other people know about, but that cast you in sort of a bad light reputationally. I think people would stay away from saying that, you know, like, but for me, I view it as a strength to highlight not only the things that I'm good at, but the things that I've made a mess of and screwed up because it shows other people that I'm secure. So it's like ultra self aware and secure in my image, the opposite as the basement kid. And it took basically falling to the bottom, being home, no, no new opportunities in front of me. Other people are off at college succeeding and here I am in my mom's basement for it to sink in that like, if you want to fix this, you have to start with saying it's my fault and then do something about it. And it worked.
- [30:02]
B
This idea of rock bottom, it's so interesting and it sounds. Sounds pretty tragic that sometimes people do need to go to the bottom on their own. Yeah. To realize that, as the quote says, the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of making a change.
- [30:17]
A
I never heard that. That's actually a great quote.
- [30:18]
B
I was like 18 years old and I was in. I just dropped out of university and I saw someone on YouTube say, the pain of change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change. And this kind of speaks to why some people. Sometimes when you listen to their stories, it wasn't until they hit the basement that they were able to look themselves in the mirror and then take actions in the right direction. But also sometimes when you try and help someone and you prop them up, like if your mother had gone, listen, here's some money, and, you know, here's some. You don't have to pay rent.
- [30:46]
A
Right.
- [30:47]
B
She'd be propping you up a little bit, enabling you.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah.
- [30:50]
B
I'm trying to think about the kid that's listening to this right now that can relate, or the person in their life, they might be in a job or whatever that can relate to knowing that there's something not quite right in their life. Maybe they're at a point where they can start to look themselves in the mirror and take responsibility. But do they. Do they have to go to rock bottom to start to change their life?
- [31:10]
A
Well, I think that part of the reason, or I should say this is more of a general statement that kind of answers this. I, in a way, was fortunate because when I hit rock bottom, I am a person that does not have. What is it called, Paralysis by analysis. I'm sort of an impulsive person, for better or worse. And so for me, it's like, once I hit that rock bottom, it wasn't hard for me to sort of quickly find a good North Star, which. The first one was college. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do college. Right. And then when I was nearing the end of college, by this point, I've sort of righted the ship at this point, but I wanted a new goal. It was like, oh, SEAL training. That checks some boxes. It's like, I wanna serve. Check. Like, it's a super hard goal. Check. I'll have to work for it. Like, it offers me a chance at reinvention and rebirth. Check. Okay, good. Like, I jump to that. That's what I do. I think there are plenty of people, and this is my guess, I don't know if it's true, who maybe have already hit rock bottom and they want to make a change. They know it's their fault or whatever situation that they know they've contributed to it, but they don't know what to do next. And there's so many choices. Think about it. If you're at rock bottom, in some ways, you have every choice in the world to make. And I think that one of the things that I certainly preach when I talk about this at all, which I guess in situations like this is you don't need like a perfect idea. You just need something that checks enough boxes for you to be worth doing. So for me it was like, okay, I'm in my mom's basement, I've done this to myself. I am the reason I'm not at school. I'm the reason that like my parents are embarrassed about their son. It's my fault. What do I need to do? Okay, well, I should graduate school because that demonstrates that what happened at UMass is fixable. I can graduate school. I can do it. I'm not dumb. I can do that. Okay, fine, gotta go to school. That was it. It's like it checks the box. So do it.
- [33:03]
B
I think it was Jocko Willick that said to me his friend had called him and was going through a difficult time in his life. Divorce, lost his wife, lost his job, et cetera. And Jocko said something, words to the effective. When you're lost in like a military context or whatever, you need to start moving. It doesn't necessarily matter which direction you move in, but you need to start moving in a direction. And that was, I was thinking about that, as you said, about this idea of like paralysis by analysis. People, they might be at rock bottom, but they just don't know what to do. So they're just sat in the same situation. Certainty in that context is sometimes better for people than the uncertainty of what happens if I.
- [33:37]
A
What if it's the wrong decision or something? Yeah, I mean, and also, you gotta figure it's sort of like a self perpetuating problem too, where if you, let's say you've hit rock bottom, even if you don't know it and you're like, oh, I want to fix my life, I want to do something with my life. Let's say the kind of generic rock bottom. Well, let's say you get paralysis by analysis and you're not able to sort of like pick a path and you go nowhere. That only reinforces the idea that you're, oh, you screwed up again, but you haven't. There's just too many choices and you're allowing too many factors to be at play here. Jocko, however, he said it is dead on. And there's another way that's talked about in the military, which is an 80% solution now is oftentimes better than a 100% solution tomorrow. And it's all about, like, speed over certainty in the military. It applies a lot of times, but that's the way I think people should generally. Not always, but generally look at their lives. If they haven't quite built anything yet, whether they're at rock bottom or just starting out, like they're young people or whatever age you're at, if you feel like you need to make a change, like you said, the pain of staying the same is greater than making a change. If you're at that point, you kind of know it. Think about what matters to you, whatever it is. Like, I like to equate it to, when you're in the shower by yourself and you're just having unfiltered true thoughts, like, ask yourself, what do you really care about? Like, honest to God, like, forget what society says you should care about. Let's say you really just want to be famous, and that's the actual core. And you don't even know why, but that's what you want. Well, guess what? Listen to that part of you. It's not vain. It's a thing that matters to you. Similarly, if you're like, I want to be just rich, great. If that's a real motivation for you, like, at your core in the shower, it's just you. If that's really what drives you, great. Those are boxes that must be checked for something to be worth doing. So it's like, have your shower thoughts and be real with yourself. Like, what do you really actually care about? Not what society says, not what you want, your family, none of that stuff. For me, honestly, the reason the SEAL thing really paid, I wanted to do it ultimately, is I wanted people to say, that's John Allen, the Navy seal. Because to me, it was like I had been the black sheep in my family. Because of me, I had discovered this. But it's like, oh, his sisters have done this. Oh, his dad's done this, his mom's done this. And then there's John. I wanted something that sort of overrode the mediocrity and failure. And I felt like, what better thing? What more honorable thing? And also, I wanted to serve. That's another check. It's a big goal. That's difficult. That's A check. But ultimately, it was like, I want people to know that I became a Navy seal. That mattered to me. And you know what? It flies in the face of what Navy SEAL instructors tell you, which is you don't want. You shouldn't do this because you want to be a Navy seal. You should do it because you want to serve the country. And, like, that's true. And what else are you going to tell your students?
- [36:26]
B
Yeah.
- [36:27]
A
But if you really want to be real about it, you got to find your real motivation. And that box must be checked.
- [36:33]
B
Must be checked.
- [36:34]
A
Yeah.
- [36:35]
B
So I pause on the must be checked, because once you become the Navy seal.
- [36:40]
A
Yeah.
- [36:41]
B
And everyone's saying, that's John Allen, the Navy seal, does your motivation disappear, or does it become something else? And it's really. I think it's really honest, but also quite unorthodox advice to say, listen, if you're in the shower and you're going, I just want to be rich so I can prove those people wrong, or I want to be famous. Prove these people wrong. It's unorthodox advice to say to follow that. But I have to say, I just completely agree. Yeah, I agree. Because sometimes you have to have a hypothesis fail you or some kind of idea fail you for you to scratch the itch. And that's why I was focusing on this idea of ticking the box. It's gonna stay there.
- [37:17]
A
Yes, it is.
- [37:17]
B
I don't know if you can go to therapy or do ayahuasca or something to get rid of that thing, but for me, until you pursue it and have it fail you or succeed, it's gonna stay there. Yeah.
- [37:25]
A
I mean, ultimately, exactly what you said. If that box goes unchecked, you might, in your life, eventually convince yourself that you never needed to check to check that box. But at some point, at some point in your life, when it becomes too late or you're about to die, you're on your deathbed, you will have regret. And I can actually speak to a specific instance in my life which I had checked a box by this point, but I had one that I hadn't checked. I was in Afghanistan in 2014, and we were in this alleyway, and a grenade came over the wall, and it detonated next to a whole bunch of us. And I nearly bled to death. And I had this moment where I can't pull the tourniquets off of my kit that are rubber banded to my chest for quick access to stop the bleeding. But I was so weak and, like, losing my vision. We're in the middle of this gunfight, I couldn't get him off. And I realized as I'm sitting in this alleyway in the middle of this, like, horrible place in Afghanistan, like, the town was very kinetic and dangerous, and I'm waiting to either be shot by the enemy, who we know is on the other side of the wall that could be coming around, or I'm gonna bleed to death, or there are RPGs being fired blindly in our direction. It's like, I'm about to die 100%. I'm actively bleeding out, or I'm gonna be shot. And all that was running through my head. There was a couple thoughts. There was one that was kind of funny now, which was, I was like, hmm, I wonder if my obituary will say, jonathan Allen, killed in action, or John Allen, killed in action. So that was going through my head. But I also. In addition to that, I had this really acute sadness that I hadn't started a family yet. I didn't have kids. I was married. We've been married for several years. And my wife and I, we'd sort of talked about having kids before that deployment, but we were like, oh, we'll have time. And I'm sitting there in this alley bleeding to death or expecting to be shot to death. I'm at the end of my life. And it was like, holy shit, I wish I had a child. Yes, that's horrible for the kid. They lost their dad. But, like, that was a box for me. I wanted a family. What was the first thing I did when I survived this and got home? We started a family, you know, so it's like, that's sort of an extreme example, but I do really believe that a lot of people have boxes that are going to go unchecked. But to your point, also, just try to do it and fail. And believe it or not, you actually checked the box.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's actually really, really true. Yeah. And, yeah, it's so interesting that. Cause I've never actually heard someone give that kind of advice before. What people say is like, find your why. And they often are quite judgmental about what's motivating you.
- [40:03]
A
Sure.
- [40:04]
B
So the only, like, accepted motivation is something like, I want to serve my country or I want to change the world. But actually, most of us are either, like, driven or dragged, as I say, which could be. Yeah, like, driven is okay. You're very conscious of what's driving you and you're in control. But then being dragged is the insecurity. It's the shame, it's that my siblings are better than me. And I want to say fuck you to my parents. Whatever. It might be very, very, very interesting. It's also even more interesting that you ended up where you are today. So you get medically discharged from the military after the Afghanistan.
- [40:33]
A
It was not immediately after, but basically between that and some mental issues I was having, I was pushed to see a psychologist. This is like so 2014. That injury happens. I survive, obviously. And I ended up getting surgery to sort of like my shoulder was banged up and I got fixed up enough to deploy again, but I was just not fit to serve physically. I was really struggling to keep up. I had some issues with my shoulders and my knees. I have shrapnel in my leg. But ultimately I was recommended to a psych in the military because they're like, dude, you are not like a sane person. Things are not going well for you. Like, close friends of mine just sort of said, I don't think this is, this is working out. And I was very angry. I had like, now I can say it, it's like I had very stereotypical, or whatever you want to call it, ptsd. Like I had not dealt with the near death experience in Afghanistan and sort of how that went. And so I, I ended up going for a medical retirement, which was driven in part by the physical injuries, but also by like mentally. I wasn't there. So I get, I get medically retired in, at the end of 2017 and you know, it's. I never really had a plan. You know, it's like I knew I was going to get medically retired, which just means, like, you're going to get out and there's going to be like this amount of money you get paid. You know, it's a retirement, but it's not really enough to live on realistically. You're going to have to have a job. And you know, I basically, I got out at the end of 2017 and I went on LinkedIn and I'm like, I guess that's where you get jobs because that's what I think people do. And I was like on LinkedIn and I wound up randomly connecting with this guy named Jordan Selleck who was living in New York at the time. He's this former investment banker who had just so happened at the time that I was on LinkedIn doing this kind of weird job search, that his best friend was a transitioning fighter pilot. He was leaving the military, going to the private sector, was struggling with the transition, which is very common in the military making that jump to the civilian world. And Jordan, who's like this very entrepreneurial guy, he was trying to prove to his friend, his friend's name was Austin, that, like, you must be alone, like, you're so successful being a fighter pilot, like, you're going to find a job. And he was like, he was doing this exercise where he was reaching out to like random veterans on LinkedIn and being like, hey, what are you doing? Like, with your transition to the civilian world to prove to Austin that you're basically complaining and you can go find a job. You're not a. But he found like one. Nobody really got back to him because they didn't know who he was. But I got back to him and I'm like, actually, you know what? I just got medically retired. I have no idea what I'm going to do. I got kids, I'm stressed. I don't know. Didn't know this guy. And so Jordan quickly went from trying to prove a point to his friend to. He was like, oh, well, hey, why don't you come to New York and I'll just introduce you to some people in my network. And out of that was born this charity that Jordan and I actually started called Elite Meet, that's still around today. It's like a networking event. It's a series of networking events for transitioning military veterans and private sector hiring managers to meet and get jobs. So I did that for a little while. Ironically, my job became running a charity that helped other vets get jobs. But Jordan instilled in me he was a big believer in Gary Vaynerchuk's style of social media, the sort of bombard the Internet with content and be like all in on content. And Jordan, he even had a similar sort of. He was similar to Gary Vee. And I found it really fascinating, the idea of social media and content creation, because when I was in the military, I didn't even have, or I might have had a YouTube account, but I certainly didn't post on it, didn't have social media. But with Jordan, we began using social media content to drive donations for this charity we're running together. But at some point I wanted to do more. Like with social media, I was doing storytelling, but narrative storytelling, like written out stories about military stuff to try to generate donations. And I was like, yeah, I want to do something for myself with social media, like build a brand for myself. And I committed a cardinal sin, one that I was very aware of. So this is self awareness, but doing it anyways. In The SEAL teams. And really, I think in special operations generally, despite what you see in terms of books written and movies made about SEALs, and you can Google SEALs, and there's like 78 examples of SEALs that are publicly talking about being Navy SEALs. There is, like, this code of conduct amongst the active duty community that you don't talk about being a seal. That's not what you can say. You were a seal. No one's telling you. You literally have to lie about it. But being a SEAL is not something that's yours. Being a SEAL is. You were allowed to enter a community of people that were, like, fighting for a common goal together, struggling, bleeding, dying together. Like, the strength of the brand of seal, the SEAL brand, is built literally on people dying. And so you can't then leave the military and say, hey, look at me. I was a Navy seal because that's for personal gain. You can't do that. It's sort of a gray area.
- [45:45]
B
I get it.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah. I began posting about being. I was the quintessential. Look at this guy, Mr. Navy Seal. At first, it wasn't that way. It wasn't like, one day I was like, guess what, guys? I'm a Navy seal. But it began as like a. Oh, I'm gonna just, like, have my own accounts and sort of tell stories about my experience as a SEAL to push people towards elite meat. But then quickly as these began to succeed, not really, but kind of, they got like 1000 likes here or there. I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And I began leaning a little more and more until finally I was like, full send. Like the guy that you're not supposed to be. This is like in 2018, 2019. And, dude, I got disowned by the Navy SEAL community. I mean, like, hard.
- [46:33]
B
Give me specifics. When you say disowned.
- [46:36]
A
I could pull up DMs from no. I. So at first did not catch a whole lot of public. At first, I think I was doing it, and people sort of were like, well, he's doing this charity elite meat, that's helping seals. It's helping vets. But gradually, as I sort of drifted farther and farther away from that into just like, John the Navy seal. Mind you, I'm not giving up anything sensitive. It isn't like I'm talking about stuff that's, like, problematic. It's really just doing some of this bump on my chest. I began receiving just some of the most painful messages I've ever gotten in my life. It's different than getting hate as Mr. Ballin, on the Internet, I certainly get hate from time to time, but it's different because they don't know me. It's like they see somebody on the Internet doing something they don't agree with or like, and so they speak their opinion. I'm sure you're familiar, but it's not personal. It might feel personal at first, but you get used to it. This was actual SEALs who I knew, who wanted me to know exactly who was sending this message, like, writing me messages to be like, hey, I used to think of you this way and now I think of you this way with, like, detailed explanations of and talking about how at the team, like, we all talk about how much you fucking suck, basically. And, like, I would go, I lived in Virginia beach at the time, which is where the seal team at Seal Team 2. That's where I was at. And so it's a big town, but it's where, like, a huge concentration of seals were. And during this time, I would, like, go out to, like, the grocery store and I would see people that I know. These are not, oh, I think that guy could be a seal. It's like, oh, no, I served with him. I know exactly who that is. And they'd, like, mean, mug me and my family at the grocery store or the gym. Because, remember, this is not like a normal group of people. This is like a group of highly trained killers of, like, operators, people that, like, go to war. They're not afraid of conflict. And I have done something that in many ways has, like, tarnished their brand. Not their brand. That's not how they look at it. Tarnish their brotherhood. It's like, I'm being selfish. And I was revived. They hated me. I got regularly two to three messages. Email, Instagram, wherever. I get phone calls, voice messages of people leaving me just the most deep cutting, personal, like, this is how I know you, and this is what's being said about you, and this is how I feel about you. It was horrible. But luckily I had already had the experience in my life, the CS gas thing, the coming home from college thing, of fairly quickly realizing that no matter how I justify this, no matter how I justify why I drifted into this arena, ultimately I knew what was going. I knew the line. And I knew when I crossed the line of being no matter what the public thinks about sealed content that you see on the Internet, I knew amongst the huge majority of people that will never be public about their service, the active duty guys and the retired guys, I had crossed a line for them. And I was not dumb. I would have been just as upset if I was them still active looking at a guy like me. But instead of, like, getting mad at anybody or looking for retribution or trying to justify it, I deleted it all at some point. I remember there was a night I'm like, sitting on my couch and I got a message from somebody that I would have said was one of my very close friends. And it just said, you suck. That's all it said. But that sounds stupid. But this is somebody who's on Team six. This is somebody who is. I specifically trained with and was, like, very close with, like, his wife and my wife were close. And, like, I know what the context of this message is. It's way more than you suck. It's. We're not the same anymore. Like, you're different and I look down on you, and I was like, I can't do this. There's. There is no amount of success that I could possibly achieve doing the Navy SEAL content stuff that would be worth what I'm going through right now. And so instead of being like, I'm going to just act like that didn't happen. I just removed all the content, save for a couple of very small, specific things. And I hadn't lost the itch for making content, but it was like, I can't do anything with regards to being a SEAL because that's not worth it to me and I don't want to do it. It felt wrong. And after trying things that never worked, like sketch comedy and, like, following trends, at one point, I was my lowest. My lowest moment, my worst one was I. There was a trend on TikTok briefly, where people would tell, like, sort of weirdly traumatic stories. Not traumatic, but, like, intense stories. But with Autotune, they'd use the feature in TikTok that was auto tune, and they'd like, sort of sing it as auto tune, but it would be, like, about the time they got, like, mugged. And so, like, it's. The contrast is so extreme. It's sort of interesting. I did something like that and I made it. And I was like, I cannot post this. This is like the worst thing I've ever made. But nothing worked. And I remember thinking, like, okay, you know, I don't have a clue what I could do that would be interesting. And actually, I remember I had these two documents in my computer. This is again, post deleting everything. I'm like, trying to make it on social media with something different. I had this one document that was like, ideas for content that were not seal related, that were like totally divorced from that. The sketch comedy, the auto tune, whatever it was. And I literally had exhausted all of them. But I had this other document that I didn't even know why I had separated this topic, but it was all I wrote on it was Dyatlov Pass. So personally I am interested in the strange, dark and mysterious. The tagline that's become the Mr. Ballin thing, basically unsolved mysteries, but not like, don't think true crime necessarily. Think like world level mysteries. Like what's out there? Is there life out there? Like why is this portion of Antarctica blacked out on Google Earth? Like the deep scintillating stuff that no one really has an answer to. I've always been drawn to that stuff. And there's a really famous mystery called the Dyatlov Pass. And it's about these hikers in the 50s, these nine really experienced hikers who are going for their, what's called their level three mountaineering test, which sounds sort of like run of the mill, but in fact, in Soviet Russia in the 1950s, this was like Master Mountaineer. Nobody had level three. This is like the top. If you did this, you're like the best climbers in the country, if not potentially the world. This is a big deal. And the way you pass your level three is you and the people taking it with you. There was nine of them. You have to map out this route through this really rugged part of whatever mountain you're going to use. They use the Ural mountains, so big snow swept like huge icy mountains. And you map out this course that like checks the boxes of difficulty and you're effectively timed. You have to start on a particular day and time. And they have people set up along the way, the scheduled checkpoints, if you will. And so they brought cameras with them. This group, this is again 1952, I think it was. And so these young nine hikers who were like so excited to do this test, no one's stressed, they're so pumped. There's a couple of couples in there, they set off on this journey and I think they reached the first checkpoint, I forget what it is, but they didn't make it to whatever second checkpoint or whatever it was. And there was a protocol for the people who were sort of sponsoring this test that were part of the checkpoints that knew this. They knew what was going on, where if they missed a checkpoint, there's this big search that goes out to make sure they're okay, even though there's some expectation that they might not Make a checkpoint by a day, because it's a difficult test, but the protocol is like really extreme. As soon as they go missing, it's like the army gets involved and they go and follow the route to find the hikers. So they miss the checkpoint. This protocol is enacted. And not only are there pictures that we will get from the hikers, but there was cameras that came with the search crew. They follow the trail that they're supposed to be on. This is again, there's no trees. It's just like the tundra. It's like ice and snow and mountains. And they come across this mountain off in the distance, and they see on the windswept side of the mountain, basically halfway up, are these tents that are just these like canvas tents. You can barely see them, but they're situated right in the middle of the slope, which is like strategically one of the worst places you can place these tents. So immediately they're thinking, one, it has to be the hikers, because who else is out here right now? But two, why in the world were these incredibly talented hikers or mountaineers? Why would they ever pitch their tent there? This is the most hazardous part. The wind can whip you off. You either go to the top and over or you stay to the bottom. Let's say you begun hiking up that mountain. You get halfway and you're like, I can't make it. You better go back down and make tent and make your camp down there. So they see these tents, they're in the wrong spot. They go up to the tents and the hikers aren't there. They're not in there. There's pictures of this too. The tents inside had stacks of clothing neatly folded and placed in the corners, like as if they hadn't they left their clothes behind. And the tents themselves were cut open, like with a knife. But somehow they deduced that they had been cut open, but from the inside. So presumably one or multiple of the mountaineers chose to cut open these tents in like negative 50 degree weather. And then there were all these prints in the snow that led down the mountain. And some of the prints were bare feet, some had one shoe and one barefoot. And it's all nine of the hikers, they spotted these prints and they follow the prints down the hill or the mountains of big space. And they find this little crops of trees. There's only a few areas in the Ural Mountains, in this part of the Ural Mountains that have trees, and there's this little group of trees. And when they get to the trees, they find Three of the hikers, and they're all deceased. And there's one who's basically almost naked, wrapped up on the ground. There's pictures of this. There's one who I believe was draped over one of the branches up in one of the trees, and then another one that was also on the ground as well. And there's these deep scratch marks in the tree, like gouges on the tree, as if some animal had been scratching at this tree. And all three of these hikers are deceased. And it looks like exposure, but they're not really wearing the right clothing, or they're missing pieces of clothing, but they're all deceased. There's more footprints that lead away from those three about a mile back in the direction the search party had come from. And there's this big snow drift that created a snow cave underneath it. And the footprints lead into the snow cave where the other six hikers were. And they're all deceased as well, except in there. The hikers had seemingly exchanged clothing, and they know this because the women were wearing men's clothing and vice versa. Some of their clothes had trace levels of radiation, and some of them had parts of their face removed. It looked like lips, nose, ears. It almost looked like surgical precision removal. They're all deceased. And one of the injuries, there was a person in there who. Their chest had basically been caved in. And it was deduced that the impact it would have taken. There was no lacerations, just their chest was caved in. The impact would have been equivalent to a speeding car smashing into you at full speed. But there's no sign of anything that could have done this damage. They're all deceased. And so the Soviet government, they launched an investigation. And during this investigation, they discovered that there was a huge military exercise, a Russian military exercise taking place in the Ural Mountains, who had no idea about these hikers. They have no clue that the Level 3 mountaineering test is going on. That's not even on their radar, and they're 15, 20 miles away. And one of their senior commanders, on the same night that it's believed the hikers all died, and whatever happened to them happened. He began noticing all these strange lights in the sky over the Ural Mountains, going up and down and moving all around to the point where he actually thought it was another country, a foreign country. Are they invading us? And he literally thought it was like an invasion of Russia. And he sent out messages to say, hey, what's happening over there? Having no idea that he was pointing to the one spot where These hikers were. So during this investigation, they discover that families are clamoring for information about their lost loved ones. Nobody has any idea what's going on. And suddenly the Soviet government says, we're going to shut this investigation down. All we know is that the nine hikers who died died from an unknown unnatural force. Sealed. And to date, even though there was actually a recent investigation, a reinvestigation done in 2020, it's remained like one of the great unsolved mysteries. In part because it's got this like, oh, the Russian government sealed it and there's more information. What do they mean, unknown unnatural force? But there's pictures of the tent, of the bodies, of all this stuff. And so I always thought that was a fascinating story and I love stories like that. And I was at this water park in Pennsylvania with my family at indoor water park. And at this point I've exhausted the one list. Nothing's worked on social media. And this new thing, TikTok, had sort of begun to happen. I didn't really even know what it was, but I was like, maybe I'll try posting on there because it's a new platform, maybe that'll work. And I was like, but I bet I want to try something else because these ideas haven't worked. And so like in my hotel room, I tell my wife and three kids, like, go down the water park, I'll meet you down there in a minute. And I just pull out the phone and I do a 60 second rendition of that. And I was like, hey, you know, at the end of this you're going to Google two words. And I tell this brief story about this crazy mystery and I'm like, that's called the Dyatlov Pass mystery. That's the name of the past they were in when they were found. And I post this video to my account that has no followers. It's like the Mr. Balin account. There's a story behind that, but it's a nothing account. Post it and really no expectation that this is going to amount to anything. I leave my phone in the room because I'm going down to the water park. I can't waterproof my phone. I'll be with my kids. And when I came back up a few hours later and I picked up my phone, I couldn't even get it to turn on. Like it was like, I was like, oh, is it odd? Is the power dead? And I finally get it on and it's just like, like notifications like mad from this video. There's over 5 million views on this video. Mind you, everything I've ever posted collectively has maybe been like 100,000 views. So this is like massive virality, but it was utterly divorced from SEAL stuff. This is like pure. I think this is fascinating and I love telling stories. And that wasn't like, oh, boy, here's a business opportunity. It was more like, oh, my God, this is so cool. I'm going to tell more stories like that because this is what I like. And I just began making story after story that sort of fell in line with that. And it happened to fall at literally the start of the pandemic. So it's like suddenly everybody is not only on their phones, but they're on TikTok. And everybody on TikTok is like, mostly kids dancing and also me telling stories with a flannel and backwards hat. And so the account just blew up like mad. I transitioned to YouTube and I've just been telling stories ever since.
- [61:34]
B
So first and foremost, I have to ask, what do you think happened to those hikers? What did you.
- [61:37]
A
Man, I don't know. I don't know. So they reopened the investigation, like I said, in 2020. I don't claim this to be true, but I think it might have been in part because of the virality of that video. Suddenly there's this newfound interest of people Googling that the Outlaw pass and they concluded that there was an ice slab that broke off and killed them. But it's like, how does that account for the clothes being exchanged? The potential radioactive nature of their clothes? Like what the military guy saw with the lights. There's too many things that don't get expl. It is true that when you become hypothermic, when you become truly hypothermic and you're nearing the end, basically you're about to die from exposure. You become warm to the point where you're hot. You actually take your clothes off. Yeah, that's a well documented thing. So you could say, okay, so they've pitched a terrible place on the mountain. They're being exposed to the elements. They're basically freezing. Maybe as skilled as they were, they weren't really prepared for the weather and so they became hypothermic. And let's say maybe an avalanche or an ice slab did come down and maybe they got hit by the ice slab and now they're hypothermic. They're taking their clothes off, but it's like, okay, what are all the marks in the tree? Why are their clothes radioactive? What did the government mean when they said an unknown, unnatural forest back in the 1950s? What were the lights seen by the military guy? There's too many unanswered questions. So I admittedly am a huge skeptic. And if anything, doing creating this content has only made me more skeptical because there's so much stuff that gets put out that's not true, and it's just totally made up. But this remains one of those stories that just sort of makes you wonder, like, is it possible there's stuff out there that we don't necessarily understand, like supernatural forces or extraterrestrials? Like, I'd say this is a story that certainly opens the possibility, but I also would be perfectly fine to hear that actually. Turns out, here's all the things that happen that makes that completely reasonable. Maybe there was a. A leak of some kind that, like, leaked out radiation or who knows what. So I'm open to it, but I think it's one of the few cases that seems like could make a case for paranormal.
- [63:46]
B
And my next question is, as you reflect on the journey of your life from the basement to the seals to then producing the SEALS content, getting disowned from your SEALs brotherhood because of that, then stumbling across this TikTok thing, then YouTube and everything else that's happened, when you look back and go, like, how can I give anybody advice on how to stumble into their thing based on the actions, the intentional actions that I took that brought me here?
- [64:13]
A
So one of the things that my wife and I often find ourselves saying is, like, wow, like, the timing on things is just amazing. We were so lucky with timing. And I'll give you a couple examples. So when I was getting medically retired from the military, there was a time where I actually was gonna be pushed out, like, actually cut from the military, and it was gonna be, like, a year earlier than when I actually did. And so it was like, hey, you're gonna get medically retired, and it's happening tomorrow. And I didn't have a job lined up. I didn't have anything lined up. And that's actually when I began reaching out and I met Jordan. And it was like, really quickly, we came up with this elite meet thing. But then after the elite meet thing, I actually had some legs. And we're getting donations in. We're putting these cool events on, and I have, like, this feeble little salary coming, plus my retirement. I'm like, okay, I can keep things afloat for a little while until I figure out the next thing, right as that happened, so out of necessity, I've found a way to make an income within, like, a month of needing to have an income. The Navy says, actually, we're going to extend your contract for an extra. I think it was eight months or something. And so suddenly I had the opportunity with Jordan and Elite Meet, but also got eight more months or 10 months, six. I forget what it was. It was less than a year, but it was a lot more time in the Navy. But I really didn't have to do much in the Navy. I was already on the medical discharge way I had to go to work and, like, be there, like a couple hours a week. It was not hard, but it meant I got paid through the Navy. And so it allowed me really to not worry about pulling money from elite meat and pulling a salary. I can just grow elite meat with Jordan and get paid by the Navy. It's like the Navy is incubating elite meat, but elite meat wouldn't have existed if I didn't have that. Oh, my God, I'm getting out in a month. I have to do something about it. And so it feels like, oh, the timing's so perfect. Like, I started Elite Meet with Jordan and then I was granted this extra time with the Navy. It fostered this company, it incubated this company. But no, I've sort of always looked at the. Looked at my life as being like, man, they're just such amazing timing on things. Like, I just feel like we're so blessed with the timing. Like when, like, the TikTok thing, like, I just so happened to, like, be making this video when Suddenly everybody's on TikTok at the beginning of the pandemic. Yeah, that's insane timing for sure. And I'm not denying that that's a timing thing. But also, I'm somebody that is perfectly willing to take a chance and do something. Like, I don't get stuck on, is this a good idea or not. It's like, I'm just going to try this thing. And it's the people that are sort of willing to quickly check a box and do this thing that will be in a position to where timing can benefit you if you're constantly like, ah, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking things are going to pass you by. And so I forget what the question was, but essentially the advice I would give is really, it's sort of what Jocko said. It's this idea of you just gotta start moving because it's amazing what doors begin to open up for you if you're already on the move. If you're stationary, they don't open.
- [67:09]
B
It's interesting because as you were talking about timing, I was thinking, that's not what I think the answer is. I was thinking that timing is one of those things you see in hindsight, and, gosh, wasn't that perfect timing? For it to be perfect timing, you need to be the kind of guy who's willing to send their kids down to the pool with your wife and make a TikTok video on a platform you know very little about doing something you've never done before.
- [67:29]
A
Right.
- [67:30]
B
And it's actually in that moment that I think that's your moment of brilliance. That's when your life pivots, because genuinely, 99.9% of people would not be making a video on a platform they don't know much about on a subject that they've never made a video about before. And your story is, like, riddled with those moments where, like, even responding to the guy on LinkedIn.
- [67:50]
A
Yeah.
- [67:50]
B
You said most people didn't reply.
- [67:51]
A
That's right.
- [67:52]
B
But I responded. And then you went and met him in New York or something. And that. Chris. So in hindsight, yes, it looks like timing, but actually it's that you were in moments where you were lost, you got moving, you did something, you had a bias towards action.
- [68:04]
A
Yeah.
- [68:04]
B
And failure is feedback. Feedback is knowledge. Knowledge is power. So you. It was. It's interesting because when you're talking about, like, your bias of just, like, do something, aim at something, what it appears is happening there is. Even if the thing fails, like some of the things you tried failed, at least you're getting feedback.
- [68:20]
A
True.
- [68:20]
B
And then the feedback's informing what you do next. Like you said, I did the seals thing on LinkedIn. You learned some stuff about social media there. It didn't work out how you wish, but you took that into the next test.
- [68:32]
A
Yeah.
- [68:32]
B
And. And that's really. I think, when I looked at your story, the defining thing is these. Just a willingness to. In fact, I'll be honest, a willingness to embarrass yourself and be bad at something.
- [68:45]
A
You know, it's funny you say that, because I literally have sort of a mantra that I've developed that I can't claim is something I came up with, but I definitely find myself living by it now. And that is, it's do things that scare you, and I'll quantify that or qualify that. So, actually, Will Smith, the actor, has this great thing he does. He goes on Oprah. I think it was Oprah or some talk show. And he talks about his experience skydiving. And, you know, it's this unbelievable, like, monologue, this impromptu monologue he gives, but he basically is like, you know, my. My family was like, yeah, or my buddies were skydiving tomorrow. And it was like, oh, yeah, that'll be so crazy. We'll go skydiving tomorrow. But he's like, we're not going to really do that. And then it's like the next morning we get up and he's like, yeah, let's go get breakfast, guys. Like, no, no, we're going to go skydiving. Like, let's go. Let's go skydiving. And he's like, wait, we're really doing that? And they're like, yeah. And he's like, oh, my God, I don't wanna go skydiving. I thought we were just, like, saying it last night. And he winds up going with his buddies to the actual airfield and they're signing the paperwork. And he's like, guys, are we really doing this? I don't wanna do this. Come on, it's not so bad. And so before long, he's in the plane, up in the air, attached to the instructor, and he's like, they open the door up and they're like, all right, it's your turn. And he's like, I'm sitting on the edge and I'm having this full blown crisis. I don't want to jump. I'm terrified of jumping. And the instructor's like, all right, Will, we're gonna go on 3:1 jumps.
- [70:13]
B
Really?
- [70:14]
A
And he was like, the second I left the plane, the fear was gone.
- [70:19]
B
Yeah.
- [70:19]
A
And it was just this exhilarating experience of soaring through the air of skydiving. And he was like, when I landed, he's like, I suddenly understood that there's always been this aspect in my life that I've sort of seen in other ways in my life, but it's the best things in life. This is Will Smith, not me. The best things in life are on the other side of fear. And so what I've taken that as, you know, like becoming a Navy seal, for example. When I decided to do it, like, there's a huge amount of fear and not so much fear of failure. It's like, just. It's fear of, like, not stacking up. Like, when I got there, like, I was so intimidated by the people around me, but I knew if I could just, like, not let the fear overwhelm me, that the reward on the back end would be so high, you know, or even take, you know, I just did a live. We did a live tour with 15 shows. I actually am terrified of public speaking. I've had instances in my life where I have frozen up publicly giving a speech and literally had to put the microphone down and leave. I've had that experience, and I'm volunteering to do a tour with thousands of people. But it's. The way I look at it is like, the things that you don't want to do, you'll be indifferent to the things that you do want to do. You'll typically have a. If it's a. If it's a big enough thing, the best things in life, so to speak, you will have some element of a fear response to it. Now, of course, if you're scared to go down in the basement because you hear an intruder breaking in, listen to yourself. Don't go down in the basement. When it comes to, like, goal setting, kind of going back to that idea of shower thoughts, right? Everybody has something that they just really want to do, and it's not even necessarily motivated by one particular thing. Maybe it's some action they want to take. Maybe it's talking to a friend that they've blown off for 10 years, or it's public speaking or whatever it is. But they know, even if they don't admit to it, deep down they know fear is the thing keeping them from doing it. It's fear of embarrassment. It's fear of failure. It's a fear of all the things that make us human. It's the very select number of people in this life that are still able to say, I'm gonna still do that thing that scares the fuck out of me. That have the best and most fulfilling lives. Not always, but they often do. And, like, that's why we look at, like, Will Smith, for example. That dude. Very likely just because I'm. I'm referencing him. He's probably had to do things that were so uncomfortable in his life. To be an actor at his level is like, hey, perform in front of everybody right now and don't screw it up. You know, it's like pressure and performance. It's like that dude has faced fears his whole life. Yeah, he's using skydiving as an example, but his life is very likely a product of a guy who faces fears. But it's the fear knowing that if I do this, there's something big on the other side. And so I preach to my children, and I try to live this idea of do things that scare you. And literally the live tour that we just did was it. I was having, like, an existential crisis before we began, but the second I took the stage, it was like, oh, this is great.
- [73:17]
B
So it goes back to what you were saying about when Will jumped out of the plane.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah.
- [73:21]
B
All the fear was there before he jumped.
- [73:24]
A
Oh, yes.
- [73:24]
B
And just like you walking up out on that stage, the fear, you're tormented before.
- [73:29]
A
Oh, yes.
- [73:29]
B
I always find before significantly harder in every way.
- [73:32]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [73:32]
B
Before. Everything that I've done in my life is the worst part. Once you get into it, you're confronting reality, which isn't always as bad, but before is horrible. And also when you were talking, I was thinking, you know, it's really either way, you're making a decision in those moments, like when you were thinking about your life tour, the decision is, do I accept the unchecked box or do I accept this mental torment that I'm gonna inflict upon myself?
- [73:55]
A
That's very true.
- [73:57]
B
And I think, yeah, when they talk to people on their deathbeds and stuff, the worst thing is the unchecked box, not the.
- [74:02]
A
It's gotta be.
- [74:02]
B
Not that I walked out and put the mic down and walked off.
- [74:04]
A
Yeah. Like, I don't look. I look back at the fact that I. And I was in San Francisco at a dinner where I literally froze and put the mic down and walked off. I looked at that as a catalyst for why I was so scared to do public speaking this time, and it ultimately pushed me to do it. I don't regret San Francisco. I'm glad it happened, but only because I faced it later on. I would be so embarrassed. I would. I would harbor, like, my pain forever if I never tried again. But, yeah, it's like the. You don't regret the failure. You regret not trying.
- [74:34]
B
How do people misunderstand you? Because they like you, they see you on a screen and they consume a certain type of content you make. They probably don't know the full context of your life. But how do you think people have misunderstood you?
- [74:47]
A
Oh, good question. I would say, and this is not even to try to curry favor with my former SEAL brethren, but I think that even when I was posting, and this is really just specifically to the people that really disown me, who still very likely. Do you know, my intention when I was posting the seal stuff before Mr. Ballin thing happened, it was never like, I'm so great. It was more like, I want to do something with my life, and this feels like an opportunity. And I know it's Sort of, like, questionable. But when you're no longer in that insulated team room, when you're in the wolf pack, so to speak, it's easy to view the rest of your life as being, oh, it'll. I become a seal. I can do anything I want. But, like, when you're cast out or when you leave and you're by yourself and you get to, like, figure out your new life, it's really difficult to imagine how you're going to do that without leveraging the biggest thing you've ever done. And so I think that the one definite, specific thing is I never made that content because I literally believed I'm this special guy and, like, everybody better look at me as, like, Mr. Navy Seal. I was very aware of the fact that I was a junior SEAL relative to the other people that had served, and, like, my experience was minimal compared to others. So I think that some people think that I actually somehow believe that I'm, like, I'm a superhero. And I didn't then, and, I don't know, I'd say now sort of the Mr. Ballin side of things. There's, like, a practical thing, which is the. As the sort of Mr. Ballin thing has grown to where it is now, to where it's a pretty recognizable thing in the genre of the strange, dark, and mysterious. It's been really, really challenging for me personally to balance my life with my wife and my three kids, who I adore, and sort of, like, you know, responsibilities with content. I mean, we have a recording schedule. We have things that I sort of have pledged to do. And as you know, with content creation, there's not really an end. You just sort of keep doing it. I think that by no means am I saying, like, oh, this job is so hard. People better sympathize with me. Hardly. Like, I understand the privilege, but at the same time, like, I started making content, and it was like an outpouring of content constantly. I was making five videos a week, sometimes that are, like 25 minutes each by myself, like, shooting it, editing it, everything. It was like it would take me about 26 hours or so per video over seven days. So it's like I really wasn't sleeping. I became, like, a raging alcoholic. I became, like, horribly overweight because it was like, everything got pushed aside to make videos. And then as I realized that, like, doing content at that fervorous rate was really taking a toll on my physical health, my mental health, and definitely my relationship with my wife and kids, I began to sort of make an exchange. It was like, I'm going to do less content for more time with my family. And loads of people got that. It isn't like the masses were like, dude, you're a jerk. But I think what's happened now, and it's sort of a product of success, is we've reached a point, not just me, but like, we have a team that's pretty sizable. We have an amazing studio, we have publishing division, we have this, we have that. Like, we've reached a point where I think people view me as like this corporate guy out to get money. When in reality, like you were talking before the show, like, you're like, it's weird people say you're so successful when I don't even know what I'm doing. Like, I'm still very much the guy that randomly made a video that went viral on TikTok. And so one of the harder things for me has been as the audience grows, which I'm happy for. It's like, you really have to understand that there are people that don't like me anymore, like, have taken an issue with me. And it's always this idea that, like, I'm somehow like this money grubbing, like, corporate guy that is only in it to make money. When in reality, like, as you've probably seen with this interview dude, my default is I love telling stories, I love this genre, always have. And like, I also, I kind of like being my own boss to a degree. So it's like, it checks a lot of boxes for me.
- [78:55]
B
Do you ever worry that you've got your priorities wrong? When I say that, I really mean. Because when you're a content creator, like we both are, like, you say you're constant, it's constant, it's constant, it's constant. And there's no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of there's not like you get off this train at some point, if you get off, you fail effectively.
- [79:16]
A
That is how it works.
- [79:18]
B
So how do you think? Because if I said to you, you're going to be doing this forever, like, you're going to be doing what you do now for the next 30 years.
- [79:27]
A
You know, I think that I've actually probably reached a point in my life as a content creator where maybe I haven't come to it exactly the way you've just laid it out. But it's. I'm definitely not currently in this for money. If anything, I'm in it for. I get a lot of enjoyment out of literally telling stories. I mentioned to you pre show that doing the live tour was so much fun because I got to actually interact with these people that show up as numbers on my YouTube videos, but they're real people, and it's like, it was so much fun. Fun, like, fulfilling for me. I would have. I literally told Nick, my CEO and the man and my manager before the tour started. Like, I would have. I would have paid to do the tour, and now especially, I would have paid money to have that experience to put those shows on. But, yeah, like, looking ahead, it's like I've sort of reached a point which is like, I was never really in this for. For fame or money or I definitely was in it for, like, the idea of being successful. No doubt I want to be successful and. And things come with that that are in the money and fame and all that. But, like, I ultimately just. I'm a guy that just, like, tries new stuff. I've done lots of new things. I sort of reinvented myself several times over. But I do really well when I just sort of have a new goal and I thrive in that environment. And like, for me, like, when the Mr. Ballin thing started, it was not, how much money can we make or how successful or how big of a business can we make? It was like, can I make another video that people like, can I keep doing that? And that became the goal. Can I repeat interest in the videos?
- [80:59]
B
Could you see yourself ever stopping?
- [81:02]
A
Yes and no, for sure. Because I think that I'm also capable of saying, and now I'm good. I'm going to go do this completely new thing with my family and ride off into the sunset.
- [81:11]
B
You think you're capable of that, saying that?
- [81:13]
A
I do, actually.
- [81:13]
B
How many subscribers have you got total? It's like, I mean, your main channel's got almost what, 10 million?
- [81:18]
A
It's about 10. I think that if you. I think we've done the math and we looked at all areas, all platforms, including podcasts, is probably somewhere around 20.
- [81:25]
B
To 25 million, say 20, 25 million subscribers. You would be okay with just walking away and saying, could you see that reality in the future?
- [81:35]
A
Yeah.
- [81:36]
B
Is there anything that it would take for you to get there? Is it like, would you need.
- [81:41]
A
Yeah.
- [81:42]
B
Is there anything. Any catalyst you think you know?
- [81:45]
A
Actually, it's funny you bring this up, because I've sort of mentioned the live Tor a couple times. If I had to be honest about my deeply internalized, unchecked box from the time I became an adult. Well, from the time I joined the military, it was I always just had this interest in giving a big public talk for no other reason than to simply conquer that moment. My dad is an incredible speaker. He's done some pretty big talks and I've seen him speak and he's so good. And I've always known that I'm a good speaker. I can tell stories. This is something well before Mr. Ballin, but I viewed it as something that was so terrifying that I would never actually do it. I was the guy that had that thought and was like, I'll live with an unchecked box. And I would tell myself it's because I don't really have the content to deliver a talk. I have the ability, but no content. And that was my excuse. But then the Mr. Ballin things happen. The Mr. Ballin thing sort of takes off and suddenly it's like, oh, you have the audience, you have the content, you have all this stuff. It is now a decision, are you going to do it or not? And I, over the last couple years have like, really mentally tortured myself to work myself up to be like, I'm not only going to do the live stuff, but I'm going to do a whole tour. Like, it's. And I told you before the show that I wanted limited production value. A part of that was because I wanted it to be me with a spotlight on me, with a microphone, to make it as intense as it could possibly be. Because I felt like if I didn't start there, I'd be worried. I didn't fulfill the thing I've always wanted to do, which is like, be the guy with the mic and captivate people. And so I did that. I feel like I genuinely accomplished this thing that I really didn't think I would ever actually do because fear was too much. I wasn't able to get past it. But as a result, coming back from that tour and this is going to sound so, like, egotistical, but it's like we come back from tour and we have this, the graphic novel we released. New York Times bestselling graphic novel. Like, it's beautiful. I'm so proud of that book. You know, the tour was like, statistically, financially, whatever you want to call it, huge success. You know, the YouTube channel, the podcast, everything's going great, but I suddenly had no more genuinely deep seated, unchecked boxes. I don't. The only thing I have is, like a real desire to be a good dad, but it hasn't. There's not a specific way to quantify that. Like, but by doing the live thing, which was so in the back of my mind, now that it's been checked, I could do 50 more live tours and it would never be the same as the first one. Like, I could right now. They said, hey, there's 70,000 people out there. Go tell a story impromptu. I could do that right now. It would be stressful as hell. But I do it. I don't have, and this is, again, not meant to be egotistical. I don't have a goal anymore. I have now reached a point where the only other thing that I wanted to do was pitch for the Boston Red Sox. And I think that ship has sailed. That'd be the one thing I'm not able to do. But I don't really have the big audacious goal. I'm sure I'll find one and I'm looking for one. But I've reached a point where I adore the storytelling aspect of storytelling. I just do. I'm doing it right now. But I also adore my family and my kids and I want to have a full life there. And by the way, I definitely have a good balance right now. But to your point, could I do this for 30 more years? The answer is no. I could do this for a time and I'll put all of my energy into it. And when people hear my fans, when I say, like, I genuinely care about what you think, I'm in the comments. I read Reddit, I read painful things on Reddit. I read all this stuff. It's because I genuinely care. Because this was never about building a business. That's a product of the thing that I love to do. It's a product of telling stories and loving to do that. But yeah, I don't have the deep unchecked box and I hope to find one. But right now it's like I feel like I'm just sort of doing stuff and I need to find the thing and I don't have it. I'm so fortunate, so blessed and I love my life. I love that. But I don't have. I've done the box checking and I don't know what's next.
- [85:49]
B
Everybody needs an unchecked box, don't they?
- [85:51]
A
I feel like you do. It keeps you moving, keeps you like thinking about it's purpose and meaning, isn't it?
- [85:57]
B
It's like a.
- [85:58]
A
There was that horrible disaster with the little submarine, that imploded, horrible thing. And I was reading about it and like the people that go on these deep sea excursions are typically like billionaires. It's people that literally have every resource known to man. You can do basically anything you want within reason. And it's like, they can't figure out what to do now, because everything. Like, to us, if it's like, hey, do you want to go buy a $100 million yacht today? Like, we can't do that. Like, I can't. I can't go buy 100. Maybe you can. I can buy 100 million yachts. But it's like, imagine being. It's very difficult to do this. I'm sure billionaires could tell us if you could buy anything. It's like suddenly everything loses its value, at least the things you can buy. It's only valuable to us because we can't have it. You know, it's like, I can get this nice of a car, but I know I can't get a McLaren. But that's what makes this one special, because I can't afford this one. But it's like the billionaires, it's like, oh, well, all I can do is, like, adrenaline now, because it's. Money doesn't put up. So it's. I've sort of reached a point, not billionaire status even close, but it's like. But it's hard to figure out what I even want to do. Besides, knowing wife and kids is, like, a really big thing for me. It stems literally from nearly dying in Afghanistan, like, really cherishing the fact that I have a family. But it's like, I also cherish what I have here with Ballen Studios. I just am waiting for the next big sort of unchecked box to appear.
- [87:29]
B
What's your journey like, been with your own mental health? Because you talked about ptsd. You talked about becoming a bit of an alcoholic as well at one point. What's that journey been like? What's. What's that sort of overlaid across your story?
- [87:42]
A
Yeah, I. I've really struggled with my mental health in particular, kind of like in the. From military service was a big part of it. I. When I was medically retired, so 2014, I got hurt in Afghanistan. I really didn't. I thought I dealt with it because you have to go see a therapist and stuff post deployments, you go speak to somebody. But I sort of was just sort of playing the game to get through it because I just wanted to deploy again and be a part of the team again. It wasn't until later on that I actually. So I deployed a second time, and I went to South America, and I remember not giving much thought to the deployment before I got there. I remember thinking, like, compared to going to Afghanistan, we're going to South America. Delay, sit in like a nice house, literally in a beautiful part of South America and like train Peruvian military forces. Like, it's not a combat deployment. This is like you're deploying and you're living there, but you're sort of like a teacher. That's the gist. And that's an amazing thing to do. But it's definitely not combat. But as a result, I really didn't mentally prepare myself for what it would be like to be in Peru. And if you don't know this, like, Peru is a totally Spanish speaking country. It's very. At least where we were, there was very little English. Like, very, very little. And so I remember I had to go late to Peru. So my team had gone. The group of us that was deploying there, they went early to Peru. And I went like a week later. And it meant that I had to fly into the airport in Peru by myself and I had to like navigate the airport. And I. I speak a little Spanish, like barely conversational. And I didn't take it seriously at all. They gave a Spanish course as I blew it off. And I remember I got to Peru and it was like, oh my God, like, as soon as I landed and I look around and no one speaks English. I'm trying to figure out where to go. Everything's in Spanish. I can't find my ride. My ride, by the way, is a local who speaks Spanish, doesn't know what I look like. And it was. And my bag got stuck and they were trying to figure out what was in my bag, but I don't speak. It was so stressful. And then I finally get in the vehicle to get brought to our house we were at. But to get there, it required driving through a true slum, like a very, very unsafe place. And I remember thinking, like, I am in a totally foreign country. I'm so far from my family, and I'm going to be here for six months, which is not long by deployment standards. That's a long time to be away. And it was like I didn't put any thought into this. I can't believe I'm gonna be here. It like I had suddenly I felt like I was in Afghanistan again a little bit. I struggled so, so bad on that deployment with just being sane. Like, I was so miserable there. There was like, to the point where I was borderline having delusions. I was so depressed. I can't even describe it. I had this recurring dream where I'D be lying on my bed. And it's also. It's always moist in Peru. Like, it's. Everything's wet. Like, no matter what. Like, your sheets are wet, your clothes are wet. It's, like, a very humid environment. And I'm, like, laying in my bed. I don't have a fan. It's, like, humid in this crappy little room. And outside, you just hear the chaos of, like, the Peruvian streets. And I would, like, fall asleep, and I'd have this dream that I was in Russia, standing on the corner of this, like, embassy or some federal building, and somebody would come out of a car and, like, grab me and, like, hijack me and, like, take me hostage. But it was, like, over and over again. I had this dream to the point where I began to believe I was losing my mind. That, like, how can I have the same dream? I'd, like, wake up in a panic. I missed my wife so terribly. She was pregnant with our first child. It was awful. It was, like, the worst time of my life. And it's hard to even now, to put it into words. It was just like, I had bordering on, like, a mental collapse. And it was in part because I just didn't appreciate the fact that, like, you're going to another part of the world where everything is different. And I also sort of began to confront, I guess, my demons from the deployment to Afghanistan. There was just some things that I. That we did, that I did that were not necessarily wrong or, like, illegal at all, but just, like, it's war, and war is, like, this horrible thing. And seeing it up close, man, it's just. It's rough, you know? And at the time, you're so conditioned to not only see war and be okay with it, but to practically revel in it. Because how else do you get young men to keep going to war and keep fighting and dying? You need men and women. But it was like I. Yeah, it was like I had, like, a breakdown. Like a mental sort of questioning why am I in the military? You know, questioning who I was. And so I ended up getting medically retired, and it was not really from Peru at all. It was more like I was so unhappy. I came back from Peru, and I just detested the fact that I was in the military. I didn't feel like it was the place for me. I also was physically injured. I was dealing with the injuries, and I ended up getting medically retired. But it was my choice if I wanted to continue to see a therapist after I got out. And at first, I Didn't at first. When I got out, when I got medically retired, I just was like, whatever, I'm done, I'm on my own. But I was so angry all the time. Like, just everything made me mad. I was so, like on edge. Not even like jumpy, but just I was just like so high strung. And it got to the point where, like, nobody wanted to be around me. Like, my kids didn't want to be around me, my wife didn't want to be around me. And ultimately they were like, I think you need to see somebody. And I was like, you know what? I think I do too. Like, I feel like I'm a mess. And it was through therapy that I. This is like 2018 or so that I realized I had some very deep seated issues with myself, with my service, with just stuff I saw and did. And it was only when I began to sort of openly talk about those things that I actually began to sort of forgive myself and begin to feel content. Like, can. What's the word? Content again, you know, it's not about, like, therapy is not meant to make you forget stuff. It's to give you perspective that you didn't have. And I just, I think I had fallen into a cycle of like, just detesting who I was and why. I think that it was like, ultimately, if I were to boil it down to its simplest part, it's like I wanted to be a Navy SEAL in part because I just wanted to go through the training. I wanted to serve in the military, but I didn't really think that hard about that. It was mostly like, I want to serve because it's an honorable thing and I know people that have done it and that's something that means something to me. But it was really the draw to be a seal. That was the challenge that I saw. That's the thing. It's going to take years to do it. It's like this really hard thing. It was like the idea of even contemplating what life would be like as a SEAL felt like even cart before the horse. It's like, who do you think you are thinking about what it's going to be like to be a seal? Like, if you ever get there, you'll figure it out. And this is actually a. I think it's a relatively common phenomenon that the people that become seals. It's almost surprising. Like, you become a SEAL and you're like, wait a minute, now I'm going to be a Navy seal. Which sounds goofy, but it's years to get to that point. And all the way up until the end, to a degree you can not make it. You can, like, fail out. And so you finally become a SEAL and you realize the reality of the job. And I say this not because I have deep exposure to this, but because it's just true, which is in this job, people die and you kill people. Like, that's kind of the gist of the job. There's way more to it than that. But it's like, that's the job, guys. Why do you think they make video games and movies about it? And I think that there's a mental conditioning to being able to do that job that comes from training. And frankly, it's a remarkable thing that they're able to create this system that creates really capable warfighters, because that's how you protect your country. That's how you go out and do what you got to do. But when you come out of that, when you sort of. What's the word? It's almost like when you. It's like you enter this matrix of thinking when you go through training and you become willing and able to fight wars, basically. But when you begin to fracture and you begin to sort of realize that you want to do something else with your life, you have to, like, kind of come to terms with what you have been doing and the way you've been thinking about it, you begin to view who you were as a seal, as a person. You don't. For me only, I was not proud of the person I had become. I had sort of really leaned into being as aggressive and as, like, you know, like, alpha as I possibly could be, not with my teammates, but just in doing the job, that I had sort of drifted down a path that I wasn't very proud of. And I think that realizing that this wasn't a fit for me, like, being in the seals, even though I got medically retired, I think I realized it wasn't a fit for me, and I would have gotten out whether or not I was medically retired. It was really difficult to cope with that loss of identity.
- [96:53]
B
You still have those demons.
- [96:55]
A
Yeah, but I go to therapy for them. And shout out to Vinnie Schorman, who, actually, he's based in the uk. He's my therapist. He's awesome. We haven't really delved too deeply into the military stuff, but, yeah, I think that it's something that will always be with me. I certainly. When I think about having Serb, I'm very proud, and I'm proud to have been. I'm a veteran now, and the people I worked with were incredible. Even the people that hate me now, it doesn't mean I think any less of them. They're incredible people in the military. I think that I just sort of. It wasn't a fit for me. It was like I thought the military was, but it was the SEAL thing that drew me in. And in many ways, this is going to sound weird, but I was sort of lucky enough to get to deploy to Afghanistan and actually have a combat deployment. Because many people, what happens is they go to, like a war fighting unit, like a special operations unit, and then they never see combat. And it's not because they made any decision. It's just the way it goes. And those people, it's sort of like they have this unchecked box, but it's not their decision. And so in a way, I was given this gift. And it sounds horrible to say it that way, but I don't know how else to say it, of getting to sort of do the job in real life. But there are sort of like. And to anybody who's listening that's done multiple deployments, like, look at this guy. Like, I don't claim to have, like, oh, I've done 87 deployments. And this is my experience. It's just from like, I had one combat tour. One. But it was enough to show me that that isn't what I was cut out to do. And I think that. But I still did those things and I still was that person. And now as a civilian sort of reconciling that, I'm such a different person now. In a good way. I've taken all the best qualities I possibly could and I've poured them into this person. I'm trying to be a good husband and a good dad, and I'm trying to do all the right things. But it's like I have this part of me that it's just crazy to me that I was ever a Navy seal. It's crazy.
- [98:45]
B
Everybody has their demons to some degree, whether it's, you know, it's a spectrum of how strong those demons can be and how much control they can have over your decisions. What have you learned about dealing with demons that might be of any. Because you've been to therapy, a lot of people haven't. A lot of people maybe even haven't arrived at the awareness that they need to go yet. What have you learned about dealing with demons that might be useful to anybody listening?
- [99:10]
A
That you can't talk yourself out of them? A demon, to me is something that if you Begin to have those thoughts, and you feel them creeping in, and you tell yourself, stop thinking about it. I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to think about that. If you have those thoughts in your life, that even just the slightest beginning of a thought about that thing starts to creep into your head, and your reaction to it is, not, now, I don't want to do this. I can't do this right now. It's all happening in your head. If that's something that you deal with, that's a demon. It's something that is like, the uncontrollable thought that comes into your head. It usually happens at the same time of the day or same thing that triggers it. And if your reaction to it is, oh, my God, I can't think about this thing, like, that is a demon in your life, and you are not going to be able, at least in my opinion, long term, to simply convince yourself that that's not a demon. It is a demon. It doesn't matter if it's rational or not. For me, I have several that sort of creep into my life, but the only way I have found to sort of cope with them is to sort of not embrace them, because that's not what you do, is to talk about them with someone who. It's cathartic to talk about it with a therapist, but it's even more cathartic to almost hear yourself talking about it. Like, you. Actually, for me, specifically, like, I have things that I've said in therapy that I can't believe I'm saying out loud that are so, like, personal and intimate and so tied to, like, deep insecurities and pains in my life. But it's only in that environment with, like, a third party who's neutral in a private setting, that these things just come to the surface. And I'm saying these things. And the beautiful thing about having a great therapist is their whole gig is they're listening and interpreting and providing perspective. They're not trying to, like, tell you, oh, that's not a thing. It's like, well, have you thought about it this way?
- [101:04]
B
Chuck me that. Perfect. Ted, One of the things that I think about all the time because my life is quite hectic and busy is how to manage my energy load. And as a podcast, you kind of have to manage your energy in such a way that you can have these articulate conversations with experts on subjects you don't understand. And this is why Perfect 10 has become so important in my life, because previously, when it came to energy products, I had to make a trade off that I wasn't happy with. Typically, if I wanted the energy, I had to deal with high sugar. I had to deal with jitters and crashes that come along with a lot of the mainstream energy products. And I also just had to tolerate the fact that if I want energy, I have to put up with a lot of artificial ingredients which my body didn't like. And that's why I invested in Perfect TED and why they're one of the sponsors of this podcast. It has changed not just my life, but my entire team's life. And for me, it's drastically improved my cognitive performance but also my physical performance. So if you haven't tried Perfect TED yet, you must have been living under a rock. Now is the time. You can find Perfect Ted at Tesco and Waitrose or online where you can enjoy 40% off with code DIARY40 at checkout. Head to perfect ted.com.
- [102:08]
A
This episode is brought to you by Global X. Since 2008, Global X ETFs has been committed to empowering investors with unexplored intelligent solutions. Global X specializes in exchange traded funds that offer exposure to the artificial intelligence ecosystem, including themes like data centers, robotics, semiconductors and cloud comp. To learn more about Global X's entire suite of ETFs from covered calls, fixed income, emerging markets and more, visit globalxetf's.com.
- [102:38]
B
Your father, you mentioned earlier that you were raised by a single mother in the basement at least.
- [102:43]
A
Yeah.
- [102:44]
B
How has your father been a sort of key figure in the man that you are? And we talk about demons and the demons that you have.
- [102:52]
A
So, you know, it's funny, my dad and I recently have sort of had a resurgence. He and I sort of had, I guess you could call it a falling out. I was very close with my dad growing up. My parents split when I was 13 and even though I was living with my mom and sisters, my dad was a very active part of my life. It isn't like I didn't see him again, but we had like a good relationship, me and my dad. And then when I left for the Navy, it came after I had found a way to graduate college and I was talking about law school a little bit and I think my dad, he was like, that's great. My son, like he turned it around. He's got this career in mind that seems like a really strong idea and I sort of sprung it on him and my mom and my sisters that I'm like, actually no. When I graduate college, I'm going to enlist in the Navy and try to be a Navy seal. I hadn't really talked about it with them at all. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but it was a very quick turnaround, and I didn't want to talk to them about it because I knew they'd say, one, why will you make it through? And two, why are you doing this? And so when I began talking about it, like, right at the end of my college career, like, literally, I'm getting ready to enlist, my dad, I think he couldn't quite wrap his mind around the idea that I really was going to do this for reasons that make sense to me now that didn't at the time. It's his son. If you're successful, that's not good. You're going to be a Navy seal. Like, going to war. If you're not successful and you wash out a training, you're stuck in the Navy in the sense that you don't get to pick another job. You kind of become needs of the Navy, and you have to go do like, these crappy jobs for like four years. Nobody likes being stuck if they don't have what's called a rate. It's like your job. So it's like he's viewing it as both outcomes sort of come with big negatives. But the way it came out to me was he doesn't believe in me. He doesn't believe I can be a Navy seal. Like, he thinks I'm not going to make it. I'm sure that was not what he intended, but that's the way I interpreted it. And it marked like, a departure in our relationship. In 2010, I left for boot camp. And while he and I absolutely maintained some level of contact from 2010 until quite literally like a few months ago, I barely spoke to my dad by choice. I had a lot of ill will towards him. I always just sort of felt like he doesn't believe in me. He also. He got remarried and he has, and he's, you know, he got remarried as a family. It just. I had a lot of resentment towards him that some was founded, much of it was not. And it sort of became something that it never was, which is I had it in my head that my dad doesn't believe in me. That really was the thought. And it actually helped propel me to at times. There were days in SEAL training where I would literally think to myself, if I don't make it, I can't even fathom what it would be like to face my dad, who in My head at the time, I'm like. He'd be like, told you so. The idea of that made my skin crawl. So in many ways, my relationship with my dad had become sort of negative for many years, but it. It sort of maintained a pretty healthy chip on my shoulder that pushed me to sort of prove him wrong in a sense. But with self awareness recently, like very recently through therapy with my boy Vinny Shorman, and through some sort of the world lining up, he and I sort of reconnected. And we actually had some frank discussions about that. And it turns out that, no, my dad just literally was worried about his son and felt like I didn't like him or love him. And we sort of drifted and life happens. I had my life, he had his life. But we've reconnected now and I'm happy for it.
- [106:32]
B
There's a lot of men that aren't at the place yet where they'll speak openly about their demons and how they're feeling and their emotions and stuff. Especially, I mean, people that have been in combat and that are seen as big, tough guys, Right?
- [106:43]
A
Sure.
- [106:44]
B
What would you say to those men that maybe, you know. Cause we all feel things.
- [106:49]
A
Sure.
- [106:50]
B
Most of us don't have the tools to know how to talk about it. And we don't have the environment. Maybe we don't have friends or outlets where we can talk about it. And a lot of men don't feel like they can even. I was one of those men that probably until about the last, I'd say two years, I would never tell my partner if I was having a bad day, if I was feeling bad, if I was anxious in any way, if I was struggling with something, I would always try and shield everyone from it. Like I thought as a man, my job was to just take it.
- [107:16]
A
Yes.
- [107:16]
B
Take everything, absorb, hold. But what I came to learn is that it is coming out.
- [107:23]
A
Yeah.
- [107:24]
B
But with unintended consequences and in unexpected ways, it's coming out somewhere. Maybe in my mood, maybe in my health, maybe in my habits, maybe in my search for quick fixes of dopamine, it's going to come out. So I ran the experiment one day of just like sitting my partner down and saying, look, I haven't been honest with you. This is how I feel. And this is what's happened. This is what I'm going through.
- [107:46]
A
Yeah.
- [107:46]
B
And it was such a important, pivotal experiment in my life because I see that. You know what I mean?
- [107:53]
A
Yeah, I do.
- [107:54]
B
So I'm just wondering what journey you've been on with Opening up.
- [107:57]
A
I think that taking men specifically as an example, you sort of have, like, the societal. These socially acceptable things that can be demons for you, that maybe we don't talk about them, but if you did, no one's really gonna bat an eye. Like, turns out I hate my job, and, you know, it turns out I don't love my partner. Okay, these are bad things, but they're things that, if you brought them up, no one's gonna question your manhood. They're not gonna question, you know, things that society views as really important. Right. It's the stuff that is super personal to you that's, like, could be potentially embarrassing. Those are the things that are your real demons. I'm not saying those other things aren't demons. They are. They are. But if you can't talk about those things, they will dog you your whole life. They really will. And so I think it's not about, you need to go sign up for therapy and go talk to a therapist. But I do think that, like, you mentioned it yourself, you have to be able to sort of, like, unburden yourself. And part of that is simply talking about it like, I had one. And this is not really a demon, but to give people a sense who are watching this of, like, how comfortable I am being forward about things that I struggle with. So, oddly enough, one of the reasons that I was also drawn to the military, believe it or not, was I struggle mightily to urinate in front of other people. Just publicly going to the bathroom in front of other people. It's not like it's destroying my life, but it's uncomfortable. Like, it's easier for me if I'm alone. Right. I knew this about myself at a young age. Don't have a reason for it. But, like, I knew when I was, like, in high school or like, in college, like, I would go to a bathroom that was private because that was easier for me. And as I got older, I was like, that's not really that normal that this is happening to me. And so part of the reason I was interested in the Navy is they drug test you and they do it really publicly. And it was like, in order to deal with this, I have to go into an organization that literally will force me to have to urinate in front of other people. But, like, for me, it's sort of like facing these things that are hyper personal, like inability to pee in front of other people, which, you know, I've overcome. But you have to be willing to sort of identify those things. And in my case, I talked to my wife about it before I joined the Navy, and she's like, okay. I talked to my therapist about it recently as well. But it's sort of like, that's a really specific personal thing that if I brought that up in a casual conversation, I'm sure there are people that could actually relate to it. But most people would be like, that's a little uncomfortable that you brought that up. But, like, everybody's got stuff that falls into that category. Maybe not specifically, but everybody's got weird insecurities and they've got things that drive their decisions that would be, to them, deeply embarrassing to bring up. Up. That is the reason you have to bring them up, because they will. They will dog you, and they will always be there until you deal with them. And for me, it's been helpful and cathartic to state them out loud and then do something about them.
- [111:01]
B
The other thing I've noticed is that when I don't state them, especially in the context of a relationship, is you live misunderstood.
- [111:08]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [111:09]
B
So, like, let's play out the scenario that you struggle to urinate in front of other people. Your wife might always start to wonder why you don't want to go to certain places. Or when you're in those places, you're acting strange. She'll misunderstand that as maybe he's X, Y and Z.
- [111:25]
A
Sure.
- [111:25]
B
And then you're dealing with a problem. You're dealing with another set of problems. He's like, he's cheating on me. No, no, no. It's like. Actually, it was just we didn't have an environment, a safe space where we could talk about the actual issues.
- [111:36]
A
Very strong.
- [111:36]
B
So I've created like five other issues.
- [111:38]
A
Yeah.
- [111:38]
B
And I have that in my life where I'm like, fuck if I just told the truth. It's a shame that sometimes I have to get to the, like, bust up moment, turn around and say, you've got this totally wrong. And the reason why you've got this totally wrong is because I didn't tell you the truth.
- [111:51]
A
Yeah.
- [111:52]
B
And it's led you off down a path, which is really unfortunate. And it's caused us more hurt than me just being honest with you.
- [111:57]
A
Yeah.
- [111:57]
B
But it's. Look, I'm not saying it's going to be easy. I think, like, many of the things you've described in your story, first you have to just take one step in that direction. I'm not saying, like, pull your partner in and, like, offload or offload to a therapist today. It's just you have to run the experiment to build the evidence and have it compound and go, actually, this is a better life than secrecy.
- [112:14]
A
I agree.
- [112:15]
B
Keeping everything to yourself. When I interview people, there's always questions. I know that they get asked all the time. And I'm like, do I ask him the question that I know he probably gets asked all the time? But you're so good at telling stories. Yeah, you really, really are great at telling stories. Thank you. So there's really two questions I wanted to end with. I guess we've got a couple of minutes, but sure. So the first question is to be a great storyteller, and we're all telling stories whether we know it or not. Is there any principles that you've come to learn that you could give means to tell better stories?
- [112:46]
A
Yeah. So I would say, obviously, the medium by which you're telling the story matters, but if we're talking about literally speaking a story, telling a story, and assuming you have people listening to that story right in front of you, which is a medium by which many of us tell stories, telling our friends, telling our family members to tell a really good story, it has less to do with the content of the story and more to do with the delivery of that story. When I told you the Dyatlov past story, I was fully committed to telling you that story. I didn't care if you thought it was interesting or not. I thought it was interesting enough that I was gonna give you my hand gestures. I'm, like, gonna make sure I harp on the details that I find really interesting. But it's like a level of commitment to telling that story. Like, that's the key. It's commit to be. Like, you have to be in the story. And like, for example, when I'm. When I did the live tour, like, that's the purest form of. You're either going to be awkward up there and, like, get through it, or you're going to fucking own the story, be in the stories and tell it to those people right there, and they're going to hear what I want to tell them. So it's like the delivery. It's not just practice and get your words right? Hardly. I. Dude, I don't even use a script when I tell stories. I look at the story, I learn the story, I internalize the story, and then I inhabit the story. And when I tell you the story, it should almost feel like I was there. Like, that is the level of commitment you need. And I would say also, like, with regards to general storytelling, it really is true that it has less to do with, like, finessing the language so it's perfect or getting your script exactly right. It's like, I would say when it comes to most stories, you need to make sure there's some sort of payoff at the end of the story, which is sort of like storytelling 101. But if you look at the way newspapers structure stories for those maybe don't read the newspaper or generally, here. Here's how it goes. This thing happened, and now I'm going to tell you the details of what that thing is and how it happened. Right? That's not good storytelling. That's great for getting information across. But all too often, if you look on, like, YouTube or if you look at other people who tell, like, mysteries, for example, sometimes in their header, it'll be like, you know, crazy. Like, golden, you know, skeleton found in cave in Russia. And, like, actually, that's pretty compelling. Maybe I'd read that. But it's like, you know, Suzanne murdered, you know, in London. And then you click on it until you find out what happened. But it's like, you don't want your audience to already in certain cases, you don't necessarily want your audience to know where the story is going. They might have a very strong inclination that Suzanne's going to get killed at the end of the story, or there's going to be a gold skeleton found in Russia. But being a storyteller, your job is to keep people invested and to build tension and to get them, like, ready for the payoff at the end. Any story can have a twist at the end. It depends on how you tell it. Like, it isn't. Like, some stories have payoffs and some don't. Absolutely not. You can use point of view. You can inhabit aspects of the story that give different lenses into the story, but own the story when you tell it and ensure that there's some type of payoff at the end, whatever it is. Like when I told you that the Outlaw Pass story, like, ultimately the goal is to get you to see that, wow, all these conflicting things. There's pictures, there's this and that. But the Russian government said an unknown unnatural force is responsible and then closed the case. The whole point of that is to say all these crazy things that are objective, they objectively happen, that we obtain data, we have pictures, we have all these things. I've demonstrated that to you, and clearly something's wrong. And they sealed the case and no one could look into it. The whole point is to make you think what is going on over there? But if I had said, guess what? There's this case that's sealed, and no one will look into it. Here's what happened. It's the same story, but I've opened with the reveal. You gotta do it the other way. So pay off at the end and own the storytelling aspect of it.
- [116:35]
B
I'll go and tell people to check it out on your channel. But is there a particular story on your channel that is. This was the cliche question that is your favorite.
- [116:43]
A
Oh, man.
- [116:44]
B
It's like asking your favorite kids, right?
- [116:46]
A
I would say the story that I'm the most proud of in terms of just how difficult it was to piece it together is the Headless Valley. And it's actually in our graphic novel as well. It isn't that it's literally the best story, but it's a story that is a composite of a whole bunch of anecdotes over about 100 years. There's this. I know we don't have time, but. But there's this place in Canada called the Northwest Territories. And so it's a part of Canada that's already very remote. And it's just wilderness and forests. And there's this section called the Northwest Territories, which is even more remote. It's as big as Germany, but Germany has, like, 50 million residents, and this has, like, 50,000 people there. So it's like no one lives there. And within the Northwest Territories, there's this valley, this, like, river that cuts through this beautiful valley called the Nahanni Valley, which has been now dubbed the Headless Valley, because over the course of 100 years, all these people who've gone into this valley have turned up headless, but, like, in the most bizarre ways. And also, you can't really get into this valley. It's very difficult to do. You can't fly there. You can't hike there. You have to either take a boat upstream and literally carry a boat up a couple waterfalls and then continue going upstream, or there is an overland hike, but it's like 70 miles of treacherous terrain. So it's, like, really hard to get there. It's totally remote. And the only other people that ever lived there were the. The Nahanni tribe. And they. One day, somebody was actually there on a hunting expedition. They noticed that the Nahanni tribe, which made up, like, hundreds of people, they were camped out along this river. They disappeared overnight. And literally nobody knows what happened to them. They left behind all their equipment, all their housing. It was left. They just vanished. No one knows what happened to them. And there's rumors of white creatures wandering the woods. But I took seven or eight anecdotes chronologically and pieced them all together and created what, in my opinion is the most comprehensive narrative of what could be happening in the Headless Valley. And I'm very proud of the way it was written and put together. And it's the first story in the graphic novel as well.
- [118:47]
B
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, what do you see as the most desirable future for the new media podcast world?
- [118:58]
A
I would say that what I love about the podcast space that I hope continues is that it is not corporate in the sense that it's totally like anybody can start a podcast. We're seeing so many podcasts, but it's like podcasts rise based on the merit of those shows versus, like, there's not a lot of corporate pushing behind podcasts. It's sort of like the corporations show up and take the podcast or try to license podcasts that have already sort of made their place, but they don't have a lot of influence over who or what they do. So it's like it's this great meritocracy of content where the podcasts are growing and succeeding based largely on merit and skill, and they're covering all these topics that are so far reaching. So it's like it just feels sort of authentic. I know there are plenty of corporate podcasts out there too, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I hope that podcasting continues to be this sort of like, how in the world are the Joe Rogan Podcast and whatever other random podcasts you want to name these titans of industry? But it's so random. But it's like this beautiful product of just human authenticity and willingness to talk about stuff. I love it. I think that it's a very authentic place that has not been corporatized yet.
- [120:17]
B
Amen. John, thank you so much for everything that you do.
- [120:21]
A
Thank you.
- [120:22]
B
It's really, really incredible. It's really incredible. You run a phenomenal media company, which I don't think people truly understand.
- [120:27]
A
Nick Witters does.
- [120:28]
B
You and Nick run a phenomenal media company, which I think. I don't know if people understand the scale and size of that media company, but it's truly impressive. And you have this awesome graphic novel.
- [120:38]
A
Yes, in the graphic novel, it's a New York Times bestseller. It's an anthology of nine stories. It's beautiful. And we intend to continue making more of them, so definitely. Check out the graphic novel. It makes a great holiday gift.
- [120:52]
B
It is absolutely gorgeous.
- [120:54]
A
Thank you.
- [120:55]
B
The illustrations and all the. I think you call them illustrations. The illustrations are phenomenal.
- [120:59]
A
Yes. We're very proud of it.
- [121:00]
B
Thank you so much for all that you do. I'm someone that loves, is absolutely enthralled by all these stories. I love mysteries, I love unsolved mysteries and I love true crime. So. And as we were saying before we got recording, me and my partner, when she lets me listen to these things in bed and it helps me sleep. And your channel is by far and away the best at this because you're such a gifted storyteller.
- [121:18]
A
Thank you.
- [121:19]
B
And as you've been speaking to me today, I've been thinking, ah, that's. I've been trying to piece together what makes you so brilliant as a storyteller.
- [121:23]
A
Thank you.
- [121:24]
B
I guess it's a long journey, a family influence and generally, you know, the experience that you've had. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for your time today as well. And it's been an honor to learn about your story of reinvention, but also to hear some of these stories, which, by the way, I need to go and figure out this fucking. What's it called? Javelin Pass.
- [121:38]
A
The Dyatlov Pass.
- [121:39]
B
The Dyatlov Pass.
- [121:41]
A
Pretty well.
- [121:41]
B
Thank you.
- [121:42]
A
And it's an honor to be on your show, really. Thank you so much for having me.
- [121:44]
B
I appreciate you. I'm going to let you into a little bit of a secret. You're probably going to think me and my team are a little bit weird, but I can still remember to this day when Jemima from my team posted on Slack that she changed the scent in this studio. And right after she posted it, the entire office clapped in our Slack channel. And this might sound crazy, but at the diary of a CEO, this is the type of 1% improvement we make on our show. And that is why the show is the way it is. By understanding the power of compounding one percents, you can absolutely change your outcomes in your life. It isn't about drastic transformations or quick wins. It's about the small, consistent actions that have a lasting change in your outcomes. So two years ago, we started the process of creating this beautiful diary and it's truly beautiful. Inside there's lots of pictures, lots of inspiration and motivation as well some interactive elements. And the purpose of this diary is to help you identify, stay focused on, develop, consistency with the one percents that will ultimately change your life. We're only going to do a limited run of these diaries, so if you want one for yourself or for a friend or for a colleague or for your team, then head to thediary.com right now. I'll link it below.