← The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Pierre Poilievre, The Next Prime Minister of Canada?: The Economy Is About To Collapse!
01:55:39
Loading summary
Transcript355 lines
- [00:00]
Pierre Poilievre
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery, so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:30]
Stephen
Trump threw the election and then thereafter
- [00:32]
Pierre Poilievre
said that Canada should honestly become our 51st state, which is never going to happen.
- [00:39]
Stephen
Pierre Poliev, Leader of His Majesty's loyal Opposition. There's a quite significant probability that you could be Canada's next leader. And your team said, I can ask you whatever I want. Okay, so it appears that the United States have made the decision to kind of go it alone in the world,
- [00:54]
Pierre Poilievre
and that is a very big strategic mistake. In Canada's case. We have everything the United States needs if they treat us like a friend. So, for example, we have the fourth biggest supply of oil. And if you look at the leading five, which of these countries do you think the United States can most rely on?
- [01:09]
Stephen
And I'm looking at the third vial there in the row, Iran. Has Trump taken the right course of action?
- [01:14]
Pierre Poilievre
The Iranian government has been extremely hostile and very dangerous to Canada. They are the leading world sponsor of terrorism. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only reason that they are enriching uranium is for the purpose of developing a weapon. And there's a far greater risk to them having a nuclear weapon than even North Korea. So the initial actions were definitely necessary.
- [01:34]
Stephen
But how do you think this plays out? And if Trump had called you and asked for your support, would you have given it?
- [01:39]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, let's put it this way.
- [01:41]
Stephen
What is the thing that you're most concerned about?
- [01:43]
Pierre Poilievre
We're over taxing our population. We're punishing initiative. We have 20,000 immigrant doctors who can't work in medicine. Wages have been destroyed. Young people can't start a family in this economy. And that is why the working class across the Western world is so angry. The good news is we can reverse all of that.
- [01:59]
Stephen
And the other thing that I actually was really keen to talk about is this. Wow. I can see the emotion in your face. Yeah, it's still there.
- [02:09]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a while.
- [02:20]
Stephen
Guys, I've got a favor to ask. Before this episode begins, the algorithm, if you follow, a show will deliver you the best episodes from that show. Very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. Pierre Poliev, Leader of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition. There is so much I want to talk to you about. I think you have a truly fascinating formative childhood, one of which I've really seldom seen on this show, especially when the person rises so high in their political ambitions. But I think the most appropriate thing to start with because it's just front of mind for me at the moment is what the hell is going on in the world. And I mean, that's genuinely, I'm up all night trying to figure out if we're on the verge of World War three, what's going on with all these alliances we used to have. What is going on in the world?
- [03:37]
Pierre Poilievre
The history starts really in the post war period with a massive increase in the power and the wealth of the United States. They unleashed the capitalist system. They effectively buried the Soviet Union just by out hustling, out producing and outgrowing until the Soviet Union collapsed and then a new authoritarian power snuck up on the United States. China went from having 80% of its population living on less than a dollar a day to being the second biggest economy in the world. At the same time, the American working class has been thoroughly screwed over by relentless money printing that has inflated their cost of living while also inflating the wealth of a small group of elites. And I think this resulted in a major pushback. Now, some of that was justified. That pushback is justified. But I also think some of it is very much unjustified. Tariffing countries like Canada makes no sense. If you're the United States, you should want more friends, more trade with those friends. And that's one of the reasons why I've been touring the United States to make the case for Canada and to remind our American friends that they are stronger working with countries like Canada and the United Kingdom than they are pushing the those natural allies away.
- [04:53]
Stephen
It appears that the United States have made the decision to kind of go it alone in the world. I mean, I was at Davos and I saw what Trump said. I saw a variety of Things in the lead up to there, talking about taking Greenland, turning Canada into one of the United States, 51st states. Is that what he said? 51st state?
- [05:11]
Pierre Poilievre
That's never going to happen.
- [05:13]
Stephen
It seems to be very adversarial. And through my childhood, and through my adulthood over the last 30 years, the US has always been the strong ally, not an individualistic, isolated force in the world. What's going on here?
- [05:26]
Pierre Poilievre
I think that is a very big strategic mistake. I think America would be better off working with the traditional Western alliance that helped win the Cold War. We had a very big menace, this nuclear armed Soviet Union that was expansionary, its empire was pushing eastward into Europe. And the response of the United States was to build a strong NATO alliance and then to unleash its economy to just out produce the Soviets and bring them to their knees. In Canada's case, we have everything the United States needs. If they treat us like a friend. We have the fourth biggest supply of oil.
- [06:02]
Stephen
You can see it here.
- [06:03]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. We could maybe pull that over here. This is the oil reserves by country. As you can see, Canada is number four, and after U.S. is Iraq and then the United States. But if you look at the leading five, which, which of these countries do you think the United States can most rely on? Is it Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Iraq? No, it's Canada. It works very well with American refineries and we sell it to the United States at enormous price discount. Furthermore, we could build up an enormous reserve of this oil so that if, God forbid, the Strait of Hormuz were to be closed, just a random example, America's friends in neighboring Canada would have a couple hundred million barrels that are already produced and ready for use if it's needed. So this is really kind of rocket fuel for the Canadian economy. But it's strategically important for our American friends. We could cooperate better on this if we got a friendly posture and a fully tariff free trade arrangement with the
- [07:13]
Stephen
U.S. what's interesting, when I look at these vials of oil that we have on the table and I see that Venezuela is number one, Saudi Arabia's number two, Iran, Canada, Iraq, and then the US is a lot of these countries that have a lot of oil are in conflict with the United States right now.
- [07:28]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [07:28]
Stephen
And now as I look at this, it seems like I understand why. So Venezuela, I mean, Trump just flew in and took the leader of Venezuela and his wife out of bed and seized the country. Iran, US Are at war with Iran. Now Iraq, I mean, that's a story Already, and Canada has been the other one where it's been incredibly adversarial over the last couple of months. Is this just all about oil?
- [07:50]
Pierre Poilievre
Frankly, we don't really understand what the dispute with Canada is about because we've been a very good and friendly partner to the United States ever since the early 1800s, before we even formed as a confederation. What I would say to Americans, though, is you shouldn't have to worry about all of these countries. If you are working collaboratively with Canada and you're trading freely with a separate country to the north, then you will not be bound by what happens in these other, less stable and arguably more hostile countries. What I believe we as Canadians need to do is use our natural resources as leverage to get what we want from this administration and future ones. What we want is tariff free trade for our steel, aluminum, lumber and automobiles. And in exchange for that, we can produce more oil and sell more of it at better prices to the United States of America. Oil is only one part of it. There's also the strategic minerals that are necessary for, God forbid, modern warfare, and we have those as well. We are a resource superpower, and I want to leverage that to get what we want from the US and from other nations.
- [09:06]
Stephen
I'm looking at the third vial there in the row, Iran. Has Trump taken the right course of action in bombing Iran in the way that he has? And the other question that's I think, on everyone's mind is like, how'd you get out of this? Is this gonna end well?
- [09:21]
Pierre Poilievre
The Iranian government has been extremely hostile and very dangerous to Canada. They killed 55 Canadian citizens and 30 permanent residents by shooting a civilian aircraft out of the sky. PS752, for reasons still do not understand and with no explanation whatsoever, they have unleashed agents into our communities and streets to harass the Jewish and Persian communities of Canada. And they are the leading world sponsor of terrorism. It is absolutely unacceptable for the Iranian government to ever acquire nuclear weapons. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only reason that they are enriching uranium is for martial purposes. There's no need to enrich it to the degree they have in order just to have nuclear power plants. I have no doubt that they were doing it for the purpose of developing a weapon. And if that were to happen, it could be catastrophic for neighboring countries, but also for faraway lands if given the ability to develop long range missiles. So we. My view and the view of the Canadian government is that the Iranian government cannot be allowed to develop nuclear weapons and Any action to stop them from doing that is necessary for world peace.
- [10:36]
Stephen
Was this action necessary to stop that, in your view?
- [10:38]
Pierre Poilievre
I think that the initial actions were definitely necessary, particularly the bombings four or five months ago to target the nuclear development sites. But I think any actions to degrade their nuclear capabilities, prevent them from ever achieving them, is favorable. And I hope that it will weaken the regime enough for the people to overtake it and claim control of their country.
- [11:01]
Stephen
It doesn't look like that's the case. I think they've appointed the son of the ayatollah to lead the country now, and they seem to be firing at everybody in the region. There were some reports that they might have ballistic missiles that could reach Europe as well.
- [11:12]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, and this is what we have to stop. I mean, the idea that they are carrying out this aggression simply because they've been attacked is false. They would have eventually carried it out. The question is when and with what means. And if we had just sort of slept and waited, we would have ended up with a catastrophe. This is different than North Korea. North Korea was allowed to get nuclear weapons, but they don't have the same celestial fundamentalist ideology there. Ultimately, the regime in North Korea is interested in its own survival and its power. The regime in Tehran has a theocratic dream. They believe that there's an afterlife in which they could be rewarded for carrying out mass destruction on what they call the infidels. They don't respond to deterrence the same way that Pyongyang in North Korea would. There's a far greater risk to them having a nuclear weapon than even having that in a communist totalitarian state like North Korea. But for Canada, in this environment, our superpower is again, our resources. And that's why it has been one of my major obsessions to unblock our resources, get them to tide water, accumulate them in a strategic reserve. That would allow us to really flex our energy muscles in environments like this and also reduce dependence on regime like Iran, like Saudi Arabia, like Venezuela.
- [12:38]
Stephen
If Trump had called you and asked for your support, had you been leading the government of Canada, would you have given the support? This is the big conversation at the moment in the UK Because Keir Starmer was reluctant to send troops originally, and it seems to have irked Trump in an interesting way.
- [12:54]
Pierre Poilievre
So our Prime Minister did support the attack, and I agreed with Prime Minister Carney on that point. That is distinct from contributing Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew. I'm not proposing that we send ground troops to Iran, and we are not in a position right now to supply a lot of the demands that this conflict would require. It depends on what they ask for before we get an answer from Canada on what it is that we can provide.
- [13:23]
Stephen
You're someone that knows a lot about history. You seem to know a lot about a lot, frankly. And I don't know a lot about a lot. So when you think through how this could go, it doesn't appear that the Iranians are going to roll over very easily. The Iranian leadership are going to roll over very easily. Trump doesn't appear to be a man that likes taking hits to his ego. So it doesn't appear that he's just gonna pull out and let things unravel. And then the third option one would say is that they double down even further and send troops to the region. How do you think this plays out based on everything that you know about both history, about Trump, and from your pattern recognition?
- [14:02]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, it could go a variety of ways. Remember the first Persian Gulf War? George Herbert Walker Bush decided that he had downgraded and penalized Saddam Hussein enough for the invasion of Kuwait. He declared victory and he moved on. And ultimately that left a lot of stability in the region. His son then went and pursued a full out and out regime change. And that was a much longer enterprise. The president will have to decide which of those two Bushes he uses as a model. But I think that the important thing is to know what the objective is. For me, the objective has to be to make sure that the Iranian government never gets the capacity to send long range nuclear missiles to to countries, or even short and medium range to Israel for that matter. Beyond that, I think it's up to the Iranian people to take advantage of the weakness of the regime and rise up and reclaim their country. I don't think this regime has popular support. I know a lot of Iranians. We are blessed to have a lot of very secular pro western Persians who live in Canada, are proudly Canadian. And they will tell you that there's almost no support for the regime among the people of Iran. They need to find a way to overturn the regime. And that would give a lot of comfort and peace to the rest of the world, but it would also give democracy to a deserving people.
- [15:28]
Stephen
What would you do if you were Trump?
- [15:31]
Pierre Poilievre
Oh, that's a good question.
- [15:34]
Stephen
No offense to Tim.
- [15:37]
Pierre Poilievre
Like I said, I would focus on the core objective of making sure that there's not a nuclear armed Iran without getting involved in a permanent quagmire.
- [15:46]
Stephen
So everything's been bombed now. Fordo's been bombed. So Is this the time to pull out then?
- [15:51]
Pierre Poilievre
I think it all depends on the intelligence they have about the nuclear capacity. That is the hinge point. We cannot allow a nuclear powered Iranian military. That is what they need to determine.
- [16:04]
Stephen
For me, at the moment, it looks a little bit like it's a little bit lose, lose for Trump in an interesting way. And I think this is also reflecting the fact that nobody really has a perfect answer for what to do next, because it's all just trade offs.
- [16:15]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. That's right. I mean, that's what the great Thomas Sowell said. There's no solutions, just trade offs in life.
- [16:22]
Stephen
And it's hitting the price of gas at the pumps in a big way.
- [16:26]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [16:28]
Stephen
A way that concerns you or.
- [16:30]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, it's funny you should ask, because it shouldn't have to concern Canadians. Our enormous supply of oil should actually insulate us from it. Normally, what used to happen in Canada is when the global price of oil rose, our dollar would rise with it because people would be buying more of our oil, which meant they had to first buy our dollar. A more powerful Canadian dollar meant that we had more buying power for internationally priced commodities like oil and food. So we used to be protected from international oil price increases in a way that we're not anymore, because our sector is no longer as strong and as big as it was as a share of our economy. And so what I want to do is unleash oil production in Canada, clear the regulatory bureaucracy, the government gatekeepers, get rid of industrial carbon taxes and have a stronger dollar that makes life more affordable and much more geostrategic power in the world.
- [17:30]
Stephen
There's a quite significant probability that you could be Canada's next leader. And for you to achieve all those things you've just described, you'll need to have, you know, productive relationship with the United States.
- [17:40]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [17:40]
Stephen
Trump, if all follows the law, won't be able to be elected. So it'll probably be a different leader by the time that you were in power. Although I know that, you know, there could be a vote of no confidence, which means that you could get into power earlier. Your relationship with Trump, good, bad, indifferent?
- [17:55]
Pierre Poilievre
I've never met him.
- [17:56]
Stephen
Never met him.
- [17:57]
Pierre Poilievre
I've never spoken to him. No, I don't have. No, I've made the decision that we have one prime minister at a time. And because we are negotiating a trade deal, it's more like a review of an existing deal. I don't want our side, as Canadians, to be divided, even though I obviously disagree with my prime Minister, on a whole range of policy issues, I don't want to undermine in any way the Canadian side of the bargaining table. I would only do that kind of conversation with a teamwork with the current government. But what I've said is that our approach vis a vis Trump should be to focus on what we can control. So why not focus on what we can do at home? Unlock our resources, build up a strategic reserve of minerals that are important to our American friends, but also to our other allies. Clear the way to export more goods to overseas markets, build alliances with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia, to diversify and become more self sufficient.
- [18:59]
Stephen
You keep using this word unlock.
- [19:00]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [19:01]
Stephen
And clear the way.
- [19:02]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [19:03]
Stephen
What are you referring to when you say clear the way and unlock?
- [19:06]
Pierre Poilievre
Removing bureaucratic obstacles. The resources we have are massively profitable for the private sector to mine, refine, store and ship as long as they can get the permits and the low enough taxes to do it. So we need to remove those obstacles so that it now becomes possible for private investment not subsidized by government, no handouts for business, but private investment to unlock and unblock those resources.
- [19:37]
Stephen
You're just saying that you don't want to get in the way of Mark Carney.
- [19:41]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, I don't want to get in the way of negotiations with a foreign country. Obviously, my job is to be his opposition in the House of Commons on domestic issues and even on international issues, but not to do so in a way that undermines the national interest.
- [19:57]
Stephen
A lot of countries aren't like that. It was interesting because you're on Joe Rogan's show. It's got a global audience.
- [20:01]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [20:02]
Stephen
So, you know, if you talk about him, you're talking about him all over the world. And you said you wouldn't criticize the leader of the opposition unless you were in Canada. But you know that, you know, you're reaching everybody, everywhere, all the time. That's true.
- [20:15]
Pierre Poilievre
No, that's true. It's true. But I just think it's a good principle to follow, particularly during a negotiation that's happening across the border in that country. Like, you know, I think it would be a little different if we were in normal times and there was no trade dispute or if we were in a country with which we have no particular contention. For me to say something critical about the government's policy back home would not have any repercussions for the nation. But particularly over the next several months while these talks are hopefully going to go on, I want to get the best outcome for Canada and I Have to put my country above myself.
- [20:49]
Stephen
Why are you better than the current leader of the Canadian government, Mark Carney? What is it you offer that is better than what he has to offer?
- [20:58]
Pierre Poilievre
My mission is to make Canada the most affordable, freest, and richest country in the world. My upbringing, I grew up in very humble beginnings. I grew up surrounded by working class people. Yeah, these are my folks. Yeah, that's an old one.
- [21:15]
Stephen
Got a photo of you there. And your parents and your stepbrother, your half brother.
- [21:20]
Pierre Poilievre
Half brother, yes. So my dad and my mother, they were school teachers. My brother's my half brother. Because we came from the same biological mother, but different biological fathers adopted into the same family. Kind of a complicated story.
- [21:34]
Stephen
Your biological mother adopted you at 16 years old.
- [21:37]
Pierre Poilievre
Put us up for adoption at 16 years old. She was 16. And then about three years later, she had another little boy. And he, Patrick, was then adopted by the same parents.
- [21:48]
Stephen
And they were two teachers that adopted you and Patrick.
- [21:50]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, that's right. I still remember when we went to pick him up. So we went to this. We got a phone call and they said, there's a little who happens to be half brothers with Pierre. Would you like to adopt him too? He said, absolutely. So we went over to this building and we walk into this room and there were all these rows of babies. And we walked past them and then they said, that's him right there. And that was when I met my brother. We picked him up. I thought that's where babies came from. There was a store. We go to a store and get your groceries. There's a store where you can go and get a baby. That's what I thought. Cause that was my first experience with it. And we brought him home and. And we grew up in working class neighborhoods. When I was about 3,4ish, we lost everything. We got smashed by high interest rates. My mother had saved up enough to buy two little rental properties. We lost those and our home and had to borrow from our grandfather to get a down payment so we'd have a place to live. My dad was driving this Oldsmobile that was falling apart. And our neighbors were working class folks. They were just electricians, oil workers, police officers. So those are the people I grew up with. And I always grew up admiring those people, admiring what they were able to do and believing that they were generally taken advantage of by government. Never listened to, and definitely. And kept on the outside of decision making. And my mission has been to bring back what I call the promise of Canada that anyone can achieve anything. It doesn't matter if you start off as an adopted kid raised by schoolteachers or an immigrant from Botswana who grows up really poor, if you work at it, you should be able to buy a house, launch a business, become a famous global podcaster, or maybe cure a disease. And that was what Canada was all about. And that is what I'm trying to reinstate.
- [23:47]
Stephen
What age do you get to meet your biological mother for the first time?
- [23:50]
Pierre Poilievre
21? 22. My adopted mother was very gracious because I said, I won't meet my biological mother without the permission of my adopted mother. She did all the work of raising me, all the hardships, all of. She put up with all of my rambunctiousness in teenage years and drove me to hockey practice and, you know, emptied her bank account to pay for our food and stuff. So I did not want her to feel like she was going to be left behind or forgotten about or replaced. And I asked her, you know, would you be okay if I met her? And she said, yes, of course, because I won't always be here. And I always want you to have a mother. And I thought that was a really incredible thing to do because it's so big part. It's such a big part of a mother's identity is that they are the mother of that child. But to have a love that's so much deeper than that, personal identity or interest is something I'll always remember. It's one of the most gracious things I've ever seen.
- [24:50]
Stephen
I can see the emotion in your face as you say it. Yeah, it's still there.
- [24:54]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a while.
- [25:00]
Stephen
What beautiful people.
- [25:02]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, we're very blessed. And it's people like these that inspire me, that keep me going in this crazy world of politics.
- [25:14]
Stephen
So you get to meet your biological mother at 21, 22?
- [25:17]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, around that.
- [25:18]
Stephen
Yeah. What does one say? What are the questions one needs to ask, if any?
- [25:25]
Pierre Poilievre
I'm trying to remember. We went on a bit of a road trip from Ottawa to Montreal, and we just got to know each other. She had a lot of questions about how my life had been, and I had a lot of questions about our biological family, about her father, who was a really great man. I would go on to meet a great Irishman, and the circumstances that led to my conception and birth. And I really came to understand her decision to put me up for adoption. And I've never been resentful for it at all. She was 16. She'd just lost her mother to a heart attack. She didn't have a lot of means. And she just made a selfless decision that we would have more opportunity if we were raised by someone else.
- [26:11]
Stephen
Did you ever learn anything about your biological father?
- [26:14]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes. Yeah. He works at a concrete plant in British Columbia. And so I went and met him. He's a great father with children that he subsequently had and raised. And so he's a very good man as well. And my adoptive father is a teacher and he gave me a lot of wonderful lessons and I think is responsible for my way with words.
- [26:40]
Stephen
Marlene and Donald.
- [26:41]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [26:42]
Stephen
So Marlene's your adoptive mother, Donald's your adoptive father. They divorce when you're 12 years old. Yes.
- [26:47]
Pierre Poilievre
It would be around that time. I was in grade 5.
- [26:50]
Stephen
Very difficult time for parents to divorce. Very difficult time. I remember that period of life very, very clearly because I remember one day my parents coming to me and telling me that they didn't love each other anymore and that they were gonna get a divorce. They didn't.
- [27:02]
Pierre Poilievre
Okay.
- [27:02]
Stephen
But I remember bit which I think did enough damage for her. But it was around that age. And I remember where I was stood in the house. I remember what I was wearing when they said that to me. Cause it's earth shattering.
- [27:14]
Pierre Poilievre
It is, actually.
- [27:15]
Stephen
I just can't unforget it. It was traumatizing.
- [27:18]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, we were. My dad told me and he wanted to tell me alone. So we got into the car, he said he wanted to take me for a drive. And we drove to the local corner store and we parked in the car and he told me that there. But it is very traumatizing. But at the same time, they were very good parents. So I don't judge them for how they ended up apart. We were very blessed. You know, they gave me a great start in life. Even though they weren't together, they loved us very much and they gave us all they could.
- [27:51]
Stephen
And Donald would eventually come out as gay.
- [27:53]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [27:54]
Stephen
One would assume that he was dealing with the conflict of feelings.
- [27:58]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [27:58]
Stephen
For much of the time.
- [28:00]
Pierre Poilievre
He had been raised in a very devoutly French Catholic household. And that's why we have a French name. And before he got married, he'd even considered going into the priesthood. So he was a very devoutly Catholic. He genuinely loved my mother. But obviously he wasn't programmed that way. You know, he has a wonderful partner and we're friends with, very close with him and his partner Ross. Right.
- [28:21]
Stephen
Now, do you see how that's changed you as a man as you've grown up? Whether it's your sort of your perspective on what love and romance is or anything else.
- [28:31]
Pierre Poilievre
I think that if everything just been, you know, white picket fences and, you know, totally predictable and as then I wouldn't be the kind of person I am today. I think it's also, you know, it's like you. Would you have been as successful as you are if you had had a very easy childhood? I doubt it. I bet all the hardships that you had and the twists and turns that took you from Botswana to the United Kingdom and then onward probably gave you some superpower. And so this, I think it gave me the chance to understand that you don't judge people. You. You love them for who they are. My parents also taught me an important lesson that Shakespeare says, to thine own self be true. My mother had, when she was a small baby, she was in a car accident and her fingers were burned off, and she had horrible scars, horrible burns on her hand at the time. And as I got to my adolescence, I said to my dad, did it ever bother you when you started dating her that she had this injury? And he said, no, because it didn't bother her. She was totally at peace and she never hid it. It wasn't long after we met that I forgot it was even there. And the message that I took from that is, be yourself. Don't try to hide the scars. Scars are the trophies of survival. So those are some of the lessons that my mother and father taught me. And my dad was the same about who he was. He just lived his life unapologetically and openly, and he never apologized for who he was. And that has stayed with me.
- [30:11]
Stephen
When you speak of Marlene, you speak with her with a great fondness and expression in your face that, you know, I've sat here 6, 700 times, so you get to see who matters most to people in their lives just by looking at their face. And she's clearly on the podium.
- [30:27]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, she's a very feisty little lady, very short and very, very forceful. She taught me a lot about being pugnacious and fighting for what you want and what you need in life. And we argued a lot when I was a kid, and I think that maybe forged some of my current political argumentation as well. My wife is a big part of it as well. She's a very strong, feisty, intelligent lady with an incredible upbringing as well. She's a refugee from Venezuela and came with really nothing. And so she has this sort of MacGyver like, skill set to get anything done, no matter how difficult the logistics. So I've been very, very blessed with strong women around me at a very young age.
- [31:14]
Stephen
It appears that you took a liking to politics. I mean. I mean, you mentioned hockey first and Marlene taking you to hockey.
- [31:22]
Pierre Poilievre
I've got a.
- [31:23]
Stephen
Found a couple of photos of you playing hockey, which I found to be quite interesting, but. Yes, but politics. When did politics come into your psyche?
- [31:31]
Pierre Poilievre
I would have been kind of in my mid teens. Well, I got into football, hurt my back in football, so I couldn't stay on the team. My mother had always gone to these sort of local conservative meetings, sometimes just bringing baked goods or attending a volunteer meeting. And I said, well, why don't you bring me to one of those? Cause I'm bored out of my skull. And she did. This gives me meaning. This gives me purpose. I want to go and pursue this. So I started getting more and more involved. I got an internship making almost no money and dressing up in a used suit, and really threw myself fully into this mission.
- [32:09]
Stephen
One of the books that I realized you'd read at that time, from some research, is this book, Adam Smith, the Theory of Moral Sentiments.
- [32:16]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes. So this book has to be accompanied by its more famous sister book, which is the wealth of nations, which that's the book that most people know Adam Smith for. They think of him as kind of the father of capitalism. Because in 1776, he wrote this book which described what we now call the free market system. And this was a really revolutionary idea because up until then, we basically had various forms of feudalism.
- [32:44]
Stephen
What's that?
- [32:45]
Pierre Poilievre
Where a small group of lords and knights and aristocrats control all the land and the great masses do all the work. And so you called them serfs. They would do all the heavy labor, and then the lords of the manor would take all of the benefit. Along came the system of free enterprise that Adam Smith describes, which is basically, it has a very simple premise. Voluntary exchange of work for wages, product for payment and investment for interest. And that the economy, rather than being guided by the iron fist of the king or the state, is guided by the invisible hand of the free market. And this had been thought that this was crazy. How could the economy just sort of run itself? And the answer is through price signals. If the price of something goes up, people just automatically start making more of it. And if you need more workers to make that thing, well, you raise the wages and all of a sudden, what do you know, the workers arrive. And this system is absolutely ingenious. Like, it's why when you go into a coffee shop and you buy your coffee, you say thank you. They don't say you're welcome, they say thank you. Because they have something worth more to them than they had before, the money. And you have something worth more to you than you had before. And this voluntary exchange puts everyone on equal scale. Even if you're a massive corporation, you want to sell something to a 15 year old kid, you have to convince them that it's worth more than the cost. So everybody has to be better off in the exchange for it to occur. And that was how free enterprise formed. And it has led to a spectacular increase in the quality of living and the economic growth 200 fold. Increase in economic growth in the free enterprise era versus the feudal era. So a lot of people thought Adam Smith is only interested in a system where people are out serving themselves their self interest. That's what they took from the statement in the wealth of nations that it is not from the benevolence of the brewer, the baker or the butcher that we get our meal, but from his own self interest. But that was only half the story. The other half was in this book called the Theory of Moral Sentiments, in which he explains how self interest overlaps with virtue. So what he said is that we have something called fellow feeling, which is to say we feel for the other person and we feel good when someone else does good. It's why we explain that people donate to charity or they leave the door open for a stranger, or they might help an injured person on the street because they feel bad when they see someone else, their fellow suffering and they feel good when they see him succeeding. And that's why it's called sentiments, because you feel these things. I saw this in my own son. He for the first time, he got a little toy and he gave it to his sister. It was the first gift he'd ever given in his life. And he was so happy, like he literally ran in a big circle around the foyer of our residence and just laughing and screaming. It just made him so happy, happier than she was to even receive it. And this is the best of human nature that his interest, his happiness was served by seeing his sister better off. And this is really laid out in some detail in the Theory of Moral Sentiments. And it for me it's like, it like brings together all of human nature in one place. Now he's not naive. He does accept that there are bad dark angels in our nature. But he gives the only plausible explanation that I have seen about how you intersect self interest with altruism.
- [36:25]
Stephen
And how did that Change your perspective and therefore you know your policies and your career.
- [36:30]
Pierre Poilievre
I have found that those who push a socialist ideology have a gross contradiction in their view of human nature. They say that human beings are wretched, self interested, greedy when they're in the private voluntary economy, but they're angels when they're in the governmental economy. And therefore they argue that the government should just control everything. Because then we have all these angels that will decide for us, decide what we get to where, how our money is spent, what we're supposed to believe in the modern day, what kind of vehicles we drive, what we should think. But that is a huge contradiction. If man is not capable of deciding for himself, surely he's not capable of deciding for others. And I think the worst vices in human nature come out when there is too much power concentrated in their hands. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my ideology is that we should disperse power, that it should be a bottom up system with as much freedom and agency as humanly possible, that people should be free to choose for themselves, and that the purpose of the government is to do only those things people cannot do for themselves.
- [37:47]
Stephen
I guess if there's socialists listening now, they might think, well, we tried this sort of capitalistic approach to the economy and it's resulted in us being able to buy less food and vegetables for our money. The price has gone up at the pumps. People are struggling. It seems that inequality has widened and the working class seem to be struggling more now than ever before. They can't buy homes anymore like my parents or my grandparents could have. So clearly we need socialism, they would argue, because the current system has not worked well.
- [38:19]
Pierre Poilievre
What we have now is socialism for the very rich. We have governments that are actively redistributing wealth from the working class to the very, very wealthy. And that is why we see record inequality. Government is actively intervening in the economy to forcefully redistribute wealth up the chain.
- [38:40]
Stephen
Up the chain.
- [38:41]
Pierre Poilievre
Absolutely. And there are countless examples of it. When they block home building with heavy regulations, they limit the supply of homes. Those who have mansions therefore are richer because their houses are worth more. But young people, newcomers, working class people can't actually get a home. That is one example of state intervention. Well, we could do, maybe do an illustration here.
- [39:01]
Stephen
Okay, so this is the total amount of land in Canada.
- [39:05]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [39:06]
Stephen
Where homes could be built. And actually this is quite reflective, I think of the much of the Western world, even the uk. And this is a penny.
- [39:14]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [39:14]
Stephen
Do you understand this demonstration?
- [39:16]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes. I think what you're trying to say Is that this is about how much land we live on.
- [39:19]
Stephen
Yes.
- [39:21]
Pierre Poilievre
So Canada is a great example of this because we have 10 times as much land per person as the second closest G7 country, and yet we have the fewest homes per capita to live in. And why is that? It's because that the vast majority of the cost that goes into building a new home is not land, labor, or lumber. It's government. It's government taxes, fees, charges, bureaucracy, lobbyists, consultants. So if you think of this home here, this home here in Canada, when you buy this house, more of the money for your purchase would go to bureaucrats in office buildings than to the carpenters, electricians, and plumbers who actually build the home.
- [40:09]
Stephen
Why? How?
- [40:11]
Pierre Poilievre
Because the bureaucracy has grown like any organism in nature which seeks to survive and multiply. They give us the second slowest building permits of any country in the oecd. They charge enormous fees. Development taxes, which started out just to pay for plumbing and roads for the related housing, but now have grown into just a huge cash cow for local governments because sales taxes still apply on most new homes. And all of that gets sponged upped by government and means that we have extremely expensive housing. In fact, we are the most expensive in the G7, even though we should be. It should be dirt cheap to own a home in Canada because we have the most dirt to build on. And my goal is to remove all of that bureaucracy speed, have the fastest permits in the world, and make it tax free to build homes so that everyone can afford one.
- [41:08]
Stephen
I was reading some stat that said. Again, I might butcher this a little bit, but it said that Canada needs to build between roughly 450,000 new homes every single year until 2035 just to restore affordability.
- [41:22]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. And we're building about 240,000 per year. So we need to roughly double our home building to do that. The good news is we have 100,000. Well, it's not good news. We have 100,000 unemployed construction workers who'd be happy to pick up a hammer and start building. We have hundreds of billions of dollars of investment that's ready to do it. We have an abundance of land. What we need are fast permits and low taxes so that we can unlock that building.
- [41:50]
Stephen
What is the case for slow permits?
- [41:52]
Pierre Poilievre
There isn't one.
- [41:53]
Stephen
There isn't one.
- [41:54]
Pierre Poilievre
Zero. There is no benefit to having slow permits. They do not protect the environment. They do not protect public safety. We used to build houses a lot faster and they didn't fall down after the second World War. Permits were almost instantaneous. We had a massive buildup of homes so that our returning veterans could have a place to live. In many neighborhoods of Canada, those homes are still standing. They have not collapsed. There's no. I'm not saying we get rid of building codes. They should all have to follow standards of environmental responsibility and be fire resistant and safe. But it shouldn't take seven years to approve a subdivision to do that. We know how. The developers know how to build according to the rules. They just need quick permits and free to plan to do it.
- [42:41]
Stephen
You'd think now with AI you'd be able to approve these permits within minutes.
- [42:45]
Pierre Poilievre
Look, with all the technology, housing should be so much cheaper than it was before. In fact, everything should be so much cheaper. But this is another area where government is redistributing wealth from the working class to the super rich. It's the monetary inflation where we're creating cash at a far faster rate than we're creating the stuff that cash buys. We've in Canada increased the number of homes over the last 10 years by 13%, but we've increased the money supply by 100%. In other words, there is now the growth in the money supply is eight times faster than the growth in the
- [43:24]
Stephen
housing supply, which means for the average
- [43:26]
Pierre Poilievre
person that it bids up the price. Now you might say, well, if everybody's equally getting their share of that money, then who cares? But they're not. There's something called the Catalan effect, which is that the first people to touch the money in a monetary expansion are those who are already wealthy and already connected to the financial system. So when government creates cash to fund its deficits, it doesn't just dump the bills out of an airplane into a suburban neighborhood. It injects it into the banking system by buying government bonds at inflated prices. And those who trade in those bonds are the first to get the cash. Those connected to the, to the financial system are the first to borrow it. They get to deploy it before it loses its value. By the time it trickles down to the working class people, it's lost its value and their wages have been destroyed. And this has been happening on and off throughout all of human history. But it's been particularly bad in the last 55 years. And that is why I think the working class across the Western world is so angry.
- [44:27]
Stephen
Canada have consistently dropped down the sort of happiness league table.
- [44:31]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, actually from 2015, we've gone from 5th to 25th. The 18th, we went from 18th to 25th just in the last year.
- [44:39]
Stephen
So you were the fifth happiest country in the world and now you're 25th.
- [44:42]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. And part of it is food. We have the worst food price inflation in the G7 today. It's due to a lot of hidden taxes that are baked into food production. We have an industrial carbon tax that charges on farm equipment, fertilizer and food producers. We have a new fuel tax that's just come in. Single use plastic is now banned, which makes it so that food goes bad about five days quicker. So it sounds kind of very virtuous. We're not gonna use plastic anymore. But it ultimately means food goes bad and somebody pays for that. So I wanna get rid of all of those taxes and fees and unnecessary regulations that do nothing for our health and safety so that we can have more affordable food. But more broadly, we have to get rid of the monetary inflation that I described. As I said, we've doubled our money supply in Canada from 1.4 trillion to 2.8 trillion in 10 years. So it is not actually that these things cost more. It's that the money with which we buy them is worth less because we're creating so much of it.
- [45:52]
Stephen
And why are you doing that? To fund deficits, to pay for debts.
- [45:56]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. And that's why all government. It's not just Canada, by the way, it's across the Western world. They're creating cash to fund deficits.
- [46:03]
Stephen
And the deficits come from having a big government.
- [46:06]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, a big government.
- [46:07]
Stephen
That's too big.
- [46:07]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [46:08]
Stephen
That's too involved.
- [46:09]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. And the result is that we're creating cash faster than we grow food, build homes or produce energy. And my mission, Stephen, is to flip that. I want us to create more of what cash buys by unblocking food production, energy production and home building so that we add those things faster than we add what? We add the cash to the system.
- [46:35]
Stephen
I saw this graph here, this chart, which is GDP per capita with international counterparts. So on there it has Canada, United States, oecd. And it shows. It's quite stark. It shows that Canada has basically plateaued in terms of GDP per capita. What does for the average person, what is GDP per capita? What does that actually mean?
- [46:54]
Pierre Poilievre
It's your income, really. It's the. Ultimately, the gdp, the gross domestic product, is the value of all the things that you produce. If you're producing more per person over time, people will see their wages rise, their real wages rise. If you don't produce more per person, then your wages are flat and so that is what we've effectively had in Canada over the last 10 years.
- [47:22]
Stephen
Why?
- [47:24]
Pierre Poilievre
Because we are not unlocking our resources. Our biggest industry is oil and gas and it's locked behind very aggressive anti development laws and bureaucracies. Because we're blocking home building and because we're overtaxing our population, we're punishing initiative with high taxes. The good news is that we can reverse all of these things if we have the most pro development and the fastest permits in the world. If we cut taxes on work, investment, home building and energy, then we can massively increase our output of the things that we need to have a good life and the wages that people earn to buy it.
- [48:04]
Stephen
This seems to be a familiar story across some western nations.
- [48:07]
Pierre Poilievre
It is.
- [48:08]
Stephen
What are those western nations and what is the thing that they've all got in wrong in common?
- [48:13]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, I think that it's probably true in the UK and the European Union as well.
- [48:17]
Stephen
What did they do wrong?
- [48:18]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, let's take Germany. They shut down their nuclear sector and they tried to effectively drive oil and gas out of their country. The end result was extremely high energy costs. And this was another intervention that took from working class people and gave to the very rich. Those who were able to get the subsidies for windmills and solar panels got fabulously wealthy, all very powerful people. But the workers in the plants and the mines of rural Germany ended up losing their jobs and paying higher prices for electricity. All of which by the way has been reversed because now the Germans are back to burning coal. So it did absolutely nothing for the environment. This is another example of government intervention totally screwing over the working class. A phenomenon across the western world. And this is the big lie. The big lie is that when government gets big, it gives people their fair share. What it does in fact is it gives the money and the resources to those who have the most political power. Those people are all rich and it pays for it by taking from the working class. So my mission in politics is to reverse that entire approach. Have a small government with big people, a meritocracy that rewards work, and a free enterprise system that requires businesses compete for workers with higher wages and consumers with lower prices.
- [49:33]
Stephen
I'm looking here at the GDP forecasts for various countries around the world. In the United States, GDP forecast looks like it's, it's been pretty, you know, pretty strong relative to others. Canada looks like it's going down 20, 25 estimates 1.7%, 26 estimates 1.3. The United Kingdom as well seems to have been lagging both The United States and Canada and Germany, as you said in 2024 their GDP growth was only 0.2, which is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of percentages lower than the United States, Canada or even the uk. But clearly there is a problem with GDP growth here for Canada, for the United Kingdom, relative to a country like the United States. It looks like the United States are doing something right. If you look at GDP growth as the main measure.
- [50:20]
Pierre Poilievre
Look, there are some policies that we can learn from. It's not just the United States though. Look at Switzerland for example. The Swiss are among the wealthiest in the world. They have the best money, the lowest inflation. They have almost no inflation in Switzerland, by the way. They have very strong money. The Swiss franc is the best currency in the world, better than the Euro or the American dollar. What do they have? Free enterprise, small government. The share of the economy consumed by government spending is significantly lower than anywhere else in the western world outside of Asia. And so they do very well. How is it that the Singaporeans have become one of the wealthiest nations on Earth? They have no resources, literally nothing. They have to import their water, for God's sakes. They took a swampy, mosquito infested island and three peoples who were struggling to survive in their homelands and they came together and created the wealthiest country in the world outside of the Gulf States. Why? They have free enterprise, they have low taxes, it's easy to start a business. You're rewarded for your hard work. This is the kind of thing we could be doing.
- [51:30]
Stephen
So looking at the numbers of Singapore, Singapore operates in a league of its own, outperforming both the uk, Canada and the USA in terms of growth and per capita wealth. As a hub economy, it is currently riding the wave of the global AI boom because they've enabled entrepreneurship and it is more than from a GDP perspective, last year, more than double the United States GDP growth. And I mean it's left Canada and the United Kingdom and even Switzerland in its tracks in that regard. Interesting.
- [51:59]
Pierre Poilievre
It's a spectacular achievement. I mean, Lee Kuan Liu, who founded the country and created this miracle should be studied by every leader in the world because I don't think there's anyone who's been able to generate such a massive increase in the quality of life and to do it with literally no resources whatsoever except, except for geography. And they managed to exploit their geography, as you said, to be kind of like modern day Nabataeans. They're a trading hub for all of Asia.
- [52:29]
Stephen
Every sort of economic policy or philosophy does Have a trade off. I mean, it's one thing you learn as a podcaster that there's just always trade offs. And if you're not clear on what the trade offs are, then they might surprise you.
- [52:39]
Pierre Poilievre
Right?
- [52:40]
Stephen
I mean, you can talk about socialism or you can talk about capitalism, whatever, all of them have trade offs. What are the trade offs of your economic strategy and philosophy?
- [52:51]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, the leadership has to have humility because it has to let go of power and turn it back to the people. And that is a very hard thing for politicians to do. I mean, no politician wants to have written on their gravestone, he stayed out of the way, left people alone so that they could do great things without him. Although I think we'd be better off if more of them did. But I should also say that there is a role for government. I'm not suggesting that there isn't. There should be a basic social safety net that provides the things that people who are less advantaged would not be able to have for themselves to make sure that everyone has healthcare even if they can't afford to pay for it, that there's basic schooling and roads and infrastructure. But what happens is that once you get beyond providing those basics and government starts to address, to metastasize into all kinds of other things that are not its core responsibility. Each dollar spent has less and less return and then it turns into a negative return where the more they spend, the more damage they do. And I think we're beyond that point
- [53:54]
Stephen
on the curve because I'm thinking about how immigration ties into all of this and to GDP growth. I think in Canada, from the research I was doing, there has been a decline in birth rates.
- [54:03]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [54:04]
Stephen
So there's significantly less people getting married, there's significantly less people being born. So how does one run their economy when you're not having new children being born without bringing in lots of immigrants to help support that economy?
- [54:20]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, first of all, I think we have to ask ourselves, why has the birth rate gone down? And I would argue that it's economic reasons. If you cannot afford a home, then you have no place to raise children. You know, we have this phenomenon in Canada of 35 year olds still living in their parents basements. And how do you even get a date? I mean, how do you bring a date home? You know, it's a challenge if you're 35 and these are great high achieving people who've got jobs but they just can't afford a place to live, or they're stuck in a small apartment because that's all their paycheck will buy them in the way of rent. And so I think for those economic constraints, we have a lot of young people who otherwise would love to have children in their late 20s, early 30s who simply have nowhere to raise them.
- [55:13]
Stephen
Am I right in thinking that a lot of these Western economies have allowed a lot of people into their countries to make up for the willingness or desire or the availability of people to do the sort of low wage jobs? Is this what's happened globally? Because it's what people tell me in
- [55:29]
Pierre Poilievre
the U.K. yes, I think, frankly, I think that a lot of multinational corporations have abused the immigration system in order to drive down wages. In Canada, for example, the government massively expanded the international student and temporary foreign worker programs and that allowed corporations to pay artificially low wages to people who do not have the same mobility rights and opportunities. And that drove down rages, displaced people from their jobs and ultimately ballooned housing costs. And so my position is that we need to cap numbers and ensure that the economy, healthcare and housing grows faster than the population at all times.
- [56:12]
Stephen
If you cap numbers, does that mean that these corporations, these entrepreneurs, these companies don't have enough people to fill the roles in their companies and therefore have to move somewhere else? What does it mean?
- [56:21]
Pierre Poilievre
No, we have unemployment, we have people without jobs, but they just, some multinationals don't want to pay full wages. So they think, well, I'll just undercut the wage by bringing someone in from a very poor country who's willing to work for a lot less and who has fewer rights because they can't leave the job to go to another employer. So it's kind of like Easy Street. And so my view is that when you've got unemployed people and you're trying to fill your workplace, pay higher wages, give people a better return on their
- [56:49]
Stephen
work, you've got unemployment. Are those people trained and skilled and willing to do the jobs that Canada needs them to do?
- [56:57]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, absolutely. I mean, we have 100,000 unemployed construction workers. They could be building the homes that we need built. We have young people coming out of high school without a job. We have a 30 year highs in unemployment among youth. They should be getting those jobs. And you know, Starbucks says, well, they don't want to take them. Well, maybe you're not paying enough. If you're not paying the right wage, then you're not gonna get the right worker. But pay an equivalent wage and you'll attract a worker who will, who will do the job?
- [57:26]
Stephen
Again, I'm trying to play devil's Advocate here. Okay, so you know Starbucks increase wages.
- [57:30]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [57:30]
Stephen
Which means that Starbucks then will increase the cost of a cup of coffee, presumably.
- [57:35]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, unless they can find more efficient ways to run their systems. You know, more competition in the system will allow the worker to gain more and the consumer to pay less. And the entrepreneur in the middle has to find ways to save and operate more efficiently. That's the magic of the market, is that everybody has a vested interest in driving the most value for the lowest cost.
- [57:57]
Stephen
One of the interesting ways lots of employers are finding ways to drive efficiencies is this new technology called AI.
- [58:02]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [58:02]
Stephen
And again, maybe somewhat ironically here, Anthropic, who are one of the world's leading AI companies released a report two weeks ago. I'll throw the graph up on the screen, but it shows where job disruption will take place based on how people are currently using their tools. And one of the things they noticed is that there's been a increase by I think roughly 14% in youth unemployment. Because entry level jobs are the ones often in white collar industries that are being taken out first.
- [58:27]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [58:27]
Stephen
And you hear these things and you go, oh, you know, that's some stats and whatever. And it's, you know, not necessarily tanked the economy yet, but as an employer of hundreds and hundreds of people all over the world now, I have started to notice that the case for hiring certain groups of people is becoming much more tricky now because of these tools. And it doesn't make me sound great saying that it's not that we're not hiring hundreds of people, but there's this certain set, when I look at specifically entry level grads, if they aren't really AI proficient, they are a lot less appealing in some roles than people, young grads that are extremely AI proficient. The problem is not many of them are. And just in a company like mine, if you are AI proficient, really irrespective of age, and you know how to build this thing called AI agents, it's kind of like you come with 50 team members of your own. Wow, that's what it's like. So I've got a kid called Kaz here, you know, he's a young guy in his 20, his 20s. He's built a team of agents that now work for him. So hiring Kaz means I get CAS and his team of agents because he's proficient in that technology. Most of the workforce hasn't been trained because of the education system to know a thing about this. So it's becoming increasingly difficult to hire entry level people. But actually all the way up the board, unless you have deep expertise in a domain, which would mean that I can get CAs to make you the agents. So, like my CFO, you know, for example, you know, 50, 50 years working in finance, et cetera, deep expertise. I just need her. And then she can build out a team of AI agents to work with her. Back in the day, if you'd got five years ago, I would have needed her and her to have a massive team of people. I say all this to say that there's a certain group in society, people that have deep domain expertise and people that are technical, that I think are in higher demand than ever before. And everybody else, as AI continues to replace them through things like autonomous driving and robotics is around the corner, I think there needs to be a real conversation about what happens to these people.
- [60:28]
Pierre Poilievre
Can I ask you a question? So throughout history, we've had these scares where new technological developments have threatened to replace and in reality have replaced certain human labor. So you had like the. During the Industrial Revolution, machines were replacing muscular power. And then you had the Luddites who came and tried to smash those machines to protect their jobs. In the end, they just got different jobs with higher pay because they could do more with these machines and they didn't have to walk behind a mule's ass pushing a plow in the hot sun all day. They had a tractor that would pull the plow and so on and so forth. And then in the dot com era, we were told again that people are going to lose their jobs to computers. In fact, they were made more productive by computers. Do you think this time is fundamentally different than those prior technological revolutions?
- [61:21]
Stephen
I would say first thing is nobody knows. The second thing I'd say is yes.
- [61:26]
Pierre Poilievre
Okay?
- [61:27]
Stephen
And the reason I'd say yes is just the speed of disruption. So unlike in the Industrial revolution, where, you know, it takes some time for the new technologies to become adopted because of the nature of what those technologies were. This technology is built on the Internet, which has global distribution. So OpenClaw is a good example of a technology that is to simplify it for the audience. It can do anything on my computer. So if I put a computer here on this table, I can text OpenClaw on WhatsApp and tell it to go on this podcast right now. Look at the part of the conversation that was most replayed by the audience. Clip it, add subtitles to it, Tweet it, or send it to my Slack channel. I can get it to. I'll tell you something I did the other day. I was in my house in Los Angeles and it was very, very hot. Cause there's a heat wave at the moment. So I said to it, can you go on, take a look at my house, buy me a umbrella that I can put. Because I like to work outside. I actually voiced it this. And what it did is it went on Google Maps, it looked all around my house, from all around the outside, because it knew where I lived. For some bizarre reason, it knew that a charcoal umbrella at a certain size would suit that table out there. It went on Amazon, found the charcoal umbrella, it ordered, it arrives at my
- [62:37]
Pierre Poilievre
house, and it transacted like you didn't.
- [62:39]
Stephen
It transacted because it had my login details to transact on this particular website. So. But it's just, you know, the framing is it can do anything that you would, you would do on a computer. A lot of people work on computers and the speed of adoption that we're seeing is staggering. So my concern is actually the sort of near term displacement before we figure out the types of jobs that the types of new jobs. And then with robotics on the way, you know, you hear someone like Elon Musk saying that there'll be more humanoid robots than humans, you know, and people say, well, you know, he's saying that because he's got a vested interest.
- [63:13]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [63:14]
Stephen
However, what I'd say is his timelines have sometimes not been right. But when he said he was gonna make those spaceships land on chopsticks, the spaceships eventually landed.
- [63:23]
Pierre Poilievre
It's incredible. Oh, he's a brilliant mind. Don't underestimate him.
- [63:26]
Stephen
And my car out there drives itself.
- [63:28]
Pierre Poilievre
That's true.
- [63:29]
Stephen
Without intervention. So I don't know. It's a really interesting time. I can both see why this technology is gonna change the world for the better, and I believe it will. But then I'm just really concerned about certain economies and countries that aren't taking it seriously because they're so distracted by other things. Like a lot of them race baiting. A lot of them are like, immigration seems to be the winning lever. Like to say the brown people are the problem. But I'm like, maybe the alien is something else. Maybe the alien is, are these agents that are actually going to take our jobs?
- [63:57]
Pierre Poilievre
I believe the basic human need is meaning to have a purpose in life. And often the question we have to ask is, how can we guide this revolution in technology so that it empowers people to do things that continue to give them meaning? I think it was John Adams who said something to the effect of my father studied warfare so that I would have the security to study commerce. I study commerce so that my children will have the prosperity to study arts. If these new systems give us the ability to focus on the things that we love doing that give us meaning in our lives, and that could be a different thing for each person, while at the same time supplying us with a lot of our material needs, it could be very positive. If it simply strips away our own utility and leaves lots of people without the ability to work at all, then it could be very, very dangerous to our lives. So I think that the public policy objective is to ensure that it becomes an enabler of humanity, not a replacement for it.
- [65:07]
Stephen
So you could come into power in 2029 if there's no overthrowing of the current leader. 2029 is going to be an interesting time if these sort of forecasts that we're getting from some of the world's leading experts in artificial intelligence and robotics come true. Have you thought much yet about how you would counteract that? What you would do to make sure that there isn't huge job disruption? Because a lot of people like Sam Altman have suggested through their actions that they might support things like Universal Basic Income. In fact, Sam Altman being the founder and co founder of OpenAI, which makes ChatGPT, I think his other startup is called Worldcoin, which uses your retina scan to validate that you're a real human being so that they can distribute money to people. Because in a world of AI, we're going to need to find a way to distribute wealth. And if you listen to Elon, he says we're going to live in the age of abundance where working is going to be optional. He says, now if you're a surgeon and you're training to be a surgeon, he says, absolutely don't. Because in a couple of, couple of years time there's going to be no human that's better than any AI surgeon.
- [66:14]
Pierre Poilievre
Wow.
- [66:14]
Stephen
So if these things are true, like surely you should be making plans and you know, when a lot of smart, you know, I know they have an incentive, they're raising money and they want, they have a certain narrative which helps them raise money. But if they are right, the future looks very different from the past.
- [66:32]
Pierre Poilievre
That's true.
- [66:33]
Stephen
Do you have a plan?
- [66:35]
Pierre Poilievre
I have principles that I would apply as these technologies present themselves. And the principle for me is how do we make sure that the AI enables and empowers people to make more decisions for themselves and have more freedom and to pursue their own Meaning rather than replacing and rendering them, giving them a sense of lost meaning and purpose. And so do I think it's great that every minimum wage worker might have a personal assistant and a chauffeured vehicle. I do. Because that would make more of their life. They could spend on the things that thrill them and make them happy. Less of their life would be spent on the drudgery of having to drive in a traffic jam or sweep their floor. But at the same time, we have to make sure that people have the ability to work and contribute and give themselves a sense of meaning in their lives. The other thing I would say is that as these technologies bring down costs, those savings should be passed on to people. They should not be inflated away. The government should not use this as an opportunity to just print more cash to reflate the cost of living. We should actually seek as our goal to lower the cost of living, make life more affordable, make our dollars go further, which hasn't happened in generations. And so if technology is going to allow us to produce more for less, then let's make sure that the working class people actually enjoy that benefit rather than having it inflated away.
- [68:10]
Stephen
It is quite concerning that if wealth does accrue to these big companies and people like Elon, who incredible entrepreneur, is going to become the world's first trillionaire, I don't think he'll be the last. The way things are going with artificial intelligence and then if there is job disruption, I do think there's going to potentially need to be some government intervention, corrective government intervention. Do you not? I don't know.
- [68:36]
Pierre Poilievre
Nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. I mean, it was Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winning economist, who embarrassingly predicted that the Internet would have no more impact on our lives than the fax machine. And he's a Nobel Prize economist, I think from Princeton or Yale or something. So nobody's Nostradamus on these things. But we have to have guiding principles, and mine are the rules around technology should always be geared towards giving people more agency, more meaning and more control over their lives and not less.
- [69:10]
Stephen
It's funny because I don't hear it reflected enough in political discourse. I hear us focusing on other things. And one of those things is immigration. Across the Western world, the subject of immigration seems to be a bit of a winning formula for political leaders. If I think about the uk, what Trump said about being invaded by rapists and murderers from the southern border, do you feel that it's a sort of a weaponized, divisive tool for People to get elected complaining about the brown people or foreigners.
- [69:41]
Pierre Poilievre
I'll just give you the Canadian experience. So for roughly 200 years, we had the most successful immigration system in the world by far. In fact, other countries, both Republicans and Democrats in the United States, used to say we need to study the Canadian system because it has been so successful. We had a point system that measured whether someone would be a good fit for our labor market, whether they would integrate well into our system. And overwhelmingly, people integrated, intermarried. You know, my wife is a refugee from Venezuela. That is not an uncommon story in Canada. What we encountered was a very sudden and inexplicable increase in the numbers in the period from 2021 to 2024. That was strictly out of line with our ability to absorb people into housing, healthcare and jobs. And this upset the social peace on immigration that we had had for two centuries leading up to it. And now everyone across the political spectrum agrees that it went too far, too fast. And the approach that we're taking is that, that we have to make it a lawful system. It has to follow the rules. People have to come in legally in numbers that we can absorb and ultimately integrate into jobs, society and our way of life. Population cannot grow faster than the housing stock or you'll run out of places to live. It can't grow faster than the number of jobs or you'll run out of paychecks for people. And so we need a controlled, orderly system that's both compassionate and common sense.
- [71:17]
Stephen
It's such a divisive subject. You've seen what's happened here in the United States with ice, right?
- [71:21]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah. It's a different situation in the us. The immigration problem in the US goes back many, many years. Many, many years of chaos at the southern border. We didn't have that in Canada. Like, that was unheard of. We had roughly 1% of population immigrating to Canada for 200 years. It was uncontroversial in Canada up until this very strange, inexplicable spike that really only helped very wealthy landlords and employers that wanted to drive wages down and rents up. They were the only beneficiaries of the extreme increase in numbers.
- [72:05]
Stephen
If you don't get the replacement rate back up to a level where you're having enough kids in Canada, does it track that eventually you would have to rely on more immigration to solve for the sort of GDP issues?
- [72:18]
Pierre Poilievre
Look, economic immigration of high skilled people to our country has always been successful and nobody resents that. One of the things that we have to do though, is when people get to Canada, they have to be able to fulfill their potential. In Canada today we have these gatekeepers that block immigrant professionals from even working in their field. So for example, we have 20,000 immigrant doctors and 32,000 immigrant nurses who can't work in medicine because they can't get a license to practice. There's this incredibly bureaucratic system they have to go through that takes eight or nine years to prove that they actually have the qualifications. It's so crazy that when I went in for my eye surgery, there's a technician there who literally flies to the UAE to do eye surgeries 10 days a month and then comes back to his family in Ottawa where we only let him work as a technician. And so UAE is a more technologically advanced country than Canada and eyeballs are the same in the UAE as they are in Canada. Immigrants in Canada have historically been more educated than our Canadian born population just in terms of their credentials, but have not been able to fulfill their work because our licensing system shuts them out. So I want to fix that with a merit based test that gets them into the high paying jobs that will actually strengthen our economy.
- [73:43]
Stephen
Much of the reason most people haven't posted content or built their personal brand is because it's hard and it's time consuming and we're all very, very busy. And if you've never posted something before, there's so many factors in your psychology that stop you wanting to post what people will think of you. Am I doing this right is the thing I'm saying? Absolutely stupid. All of these result in paralysis, which means you don't post and your feed goes bare. I'm an investor in a company called Stan Store, which you've probably heard me talk about. And what they've been building is this new tool called Stanley that uses AI Looks at your feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks at your history, looks at your best performing posts and tells you what you should post, makes those posts for you. You can also just use it for inspiration. And sometimes what we need when we're thinking about doing a post for our social media channels is inspiration. Building an audience has fundamentally changed my life and I think it could change yours too. So I'm inviting you to give this new tool a shot and let me know what you think. All you have to do is search coach Stan Store. Now to get started. You know, every once in a while you come across a product that has such a huge impact on your life that you'd probably describe as a game changer. And I would say for about 35 to 40% of my team, they would currently describe this product that I have in front of me called Ketone IQ, which you can get@ketone.com as a game changer. But the reason I became a co owner of this company and the reason why they now are a sponsor of this podcast is because one day when I came to work, there was a box of this stuff sat on my desk. I had no idea what it was, Lily. And my team says that this company have been in touch. So I went upstairs, tried it, and quite frankly, the rest is history in terms of my focus, my energy levels, how I feel, how I work, how productive I am. Game changer. So if you want to give it a try, visit ketone.com stephen for 30% off. You'll also get a free gift with your second shipment. And now you can find Ketone IQ at Target stores across the United States, where your first shot is completely free of charge. We have finally caved in. So many of you have asked us if we could bundle the conversation cards with the 1% diary. For those of you that every single time a guest sits here with me in the chair, they leave a question in the diary of a CEO and then I ask that question to the next guest. We don't release those questions in any environment other than on these incredible conversation cards. These have become a fantastic tool for people in relationships, people in teams in big corporations, and also family members to connect with each other. With that, we also have the 1% diary, which is this incredible tool to change habits in your life. So many of you have asked if it was possible to buy both at the same time, especially people in big companies. So what we've done is we've bundled them together and you can buy both at the same time. And if you want to drive connection and instill habit change in your company, head to thediary.com to inquire and our team will be in touch. What is the biggest threat, do you think, to the Western world and the Western way of living? Because people often, you know, they point at Iran, they say China, they say Russia.
- [76:43]
Pierre Poilievre
I think it depends on what China decides to do. China is a spectacular and brilliant civilization with so much to contribute to world harmony. If that's their choice, if the government decides that it's going to direct the immense successes of that country towards trading and working with other countries, then there's nothing to worry about. But if it is a very aggressive, bellicose approach, using technology for espionage, interference in foreign countries, as they have done in Canada invading Taiwan, then China and Beijing in particular, the regime could become the biggest risk and threat to our country and our world.
- [77:28]
Stephen
What does history say about this kind of moment in time where there's seemingly two world powers?
- [77:34]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, there is an incredible book called Thucydides Trap, which a professor named Allison said that throughout history, he took, I think, 20 occasions where an incumbent superpower was caught up on by a challenging superpower. And in I think the majority of cases, it did end up in war. And now he said it's not necessary, though, and it doesn't have to happen. It can be avoided. And he lays out a plan in his book for it to be avoided. I think it can be avoided as well if Beijing can be made to understand that it is in the interest of China to be part of the community of nations, to work collaboratively, to trade freely, to be a partner rather than an enemy. And I hope they make the right decision.
- [78:25]
Stephen
Is it fair to say that the United States is really at war with China now already, but just through proxy wars and other types of sort of economic wars? Because now that they both have nuclear weapons, you can't really have a direct conflict, can you?
- [78:39]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, let's put it this way. Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, these are all countries that were in the realm of influence of Beijing, and they're the countries where the United States is pursuing change. So there is the war that we watch on the evening news and the real interest behind them that is driving it.
- [79:07]
Stephen
Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons, does it?
- [79:09]
Pierre Poilievre
No, we do not.
- [79:10]
Stephen
Why?
- [79:11]
Pierre Poilievre
We made a decision, I think it was about. I want to say about 40 or 50 years ago, not to pursue nuclear armament. We didn't think we had any need for it. Lots of nuclear power, lots of uranium, but we don't use it for weaponry.
- [79:24]
Stephen
Do you think Canada should have nuclear weapons?
- [79:27]
Pierre Poilievre
I don't see a need for that. I don't know what we would get from it. We don't have any desire to threaten anyone with nuclear weapons. So I don't see a purpose for that right now.
- [79:45]
Stephen
Sounds quite Canadian.
- [79:47]
Pierre Poilievre
That's true. But listen, we are a warrior nation. Make no mistake about it. We were in the world wars two years before the Americans, and we are. We're kind of like a golden retriever. We're friendly, we're likable, we like to get along, but if provoked, we will fight back.
- [80:06]
Stephen
Canada's building up its military.
- [80:08]
Pierre Poilievre
Absolutely.
- [80:09]
Stephen
Why?
- [80:10]
Pierre Poilievre
Because there's a consensus that we have not done enough to protect our Territory from the incursions of hostile powers. And we often say in Canada, if you don't use it, you lose it. There's large territories of our country that are very hard to live in. We have an incredible Inuit population, but obviously, you know, you can't heavily populate the Arctic Archipelago with industry and stuff. So how do you assert sovereignty over those treasured territories? Well, you have to have a military presence there. What's changed for Canada? It's that we want to maintain and ensure that we can make our own decisions without relying on the Americans, because
- [80:53]
Stephen
the Americans have expressed that they are maybe not going to be as collaborative
- [80:57]
Pierre Poilievre
and friendly, and we want to be able to decide for ourselves. We want to be masters in our own home. In Quebec, they say maitre chinut. And so if we want to control our own destiny and territory, we have to be able to protect ourselves. It has been very good for Canada to be next door to the biggest military power the world has ever seen and have friendly relations that go back to the early 1800s, before we were even a country. We had largely friendly relations with this enormous power. But what has become clear is that we cannot simply rely on the Americans to protect us. We have to be able to protect ourselves. And that requires a massive military buildup for a country of our size, the second biggest country anywhere in the world. We have the longest oceanic coastline, even longer than Russia. So that takes money, and it takes a buildup like we've never seen. And that's what we, as Canadians, agree has to happen.
- [81:53]
Stephen
Now, this is in part because of Trump. In part, yes, because Trump threw the election and then thereafter said that he was gonna make Canada an American state,
- [82:03]
Pierre Poilievre
which is never gonna happen, but that,
- [82:06]
Stephen
you know, the leader of the most powerful military on earth says, even jokingly, that they are about to take your country. You can laugh, but at the same time, one, if I was leading Canada, I'd go, wait, is this possible? Are we ready to defend ourselves?
- [82:24]
Pierre Poilievre
We, as Canadians, react very badly to that. And we're not going to ever be the 51st state or any part of the United States of America. The American people are our friends. They've been our top trading partner, our closest ally. As President Kennedy said, history has made us friends, economics has made us partners, geography has made us neighbors, and necessity has made us allies. Those whom nature have thus joined together, let no man put asunder. But he understood that Canada was a separate country that had its own unique interests. And I think the American people understand that as well. I think the American People are very fond of Canada as a neighbor and friend, but they understand we will always be a sovereign country.
- [83:12]
Stephen
You would have been negotiating with Trump right now if the election, the recent election in Canada had gone your way. This is a pretty, pretty stark graph that I've just led you. It shows that you were leading in the polls seemingly up until the very, very last moment in the elections. Is that accurate, that poll?
- [83:31]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, I think that's probably a weighted average, but, yeah, I think more or less.
- [83:35]
Stephen
What happened?
- [83:36]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, if you look what happened, our support didn't drop that much. The other parties collapsed in behind the Liberal Party, and it was largely due to the Canada U.S. issue that you raised, really. But at the same time, we got the biggest vote count we had ever received and the highest share of vote that we've received since 1988. So we did perform very well. Our opponents performed even better. And now we have to build on the solid base that we've accumulated in order to win the next election.
- [84:09]
Stephen
Just as the election comes into the home stretch, your polling basically stays the same. Slight little bit of a drop, but roughly stays the same. What caused the drop in that sort of home stretch there, do you think?
- [84:23]
Pierre Poilievre
One of the challenges I had was I wanted to focus on the things that were going on in people's lives. The doubling of housing costs, the rising crime rate, the inflation crisis, and my solutions to all of those problems. But a lot of that was swept off of the conversation because everyone was focused suddenly on the tariffs and the President.
- [84:46]
Stephen
The president saying that he was going to take Canada as a state, but also him saying that he was going to apply tariffs.
- [84:51]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. And those tariffs are still in place.
- [84:55]
Stephen
Why did that impact you and help Mark Carney?
- [84:58]
Pierre Poilievre
That's a good question. I think it allowed the conversation to move away from the domestic record of the government and onto two external factors. And that always helps the incumbent and hurts the challenger.
- [85:13]
Stephen
How was this emotionally?
- [85:14]
Pierre Poilievre
Oh, it was a roller coaster. And it was like, so things were changing so fast and moving so quickly in the moment. It's like you don't really have time to feel anything. You're just doing so much so quickly that your emotions, they're put on delay until after it's all over.
- [85:33]
Stephen
So after it's all over, I've got this wonderful photo of that.
- [85:37]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [85:37]
Stephen
Of you and your family. You said the emotions came after because you were going, going, going, going, going.
- [85:42]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes. So my leadership started in 2022 as we were coming out of COVID and there were so Many people who placed so much hope in me, who had suffered so much, they would tell me they felt like they lost control of their lives and that they vested hope in me. So I'd get young people who'd say, you have to win because I want to start a family, and I can't start a family in this economy. Or mothers would say, we just can't afford food anymore. Or police officers say, I've arrested the same guy four times this week, and he keeps getting released. You have to win to fix these problems. It's not about you, Mr. Poliev. It's about the stuff that's happening in our lives, and you have to fix it. You know, I had a lady come to one of my rallies, because when you vote to choose a leader of a party, you have to pay $15 to join the party. And she came up and told me about her life story. And then she went up to the membership desk. Desk and said, can I borrow $8? And they said, what do you need it for? She said, well, I only have $7. And they said, oh, well, there's a bank machine downstairs. You can go get some more cash. And she says, I don't have a bank card. And they said, well, is there perhaps could you go to your car and get some money? She said, well, I don't have any money in my car. What about your home? Because we're not allowed to buy them under the rules for other people. And she said, I don't have a home. I live in my car. And the $7 is all the money I own, and I'm spending it on a membership so that I can vote for Mr. Paglia because he is my only hope. This is the only chance I have. So I wanted to deliver for these people. And when we didn't win, I felt terrible that I hadn't delivered for them.
- [87:26]
Stephen
What does that look like, the disappointment of not delivering for people the night of election, the day after. If I'm watching you as a fly on the wall, what do I see?
- [87:35]
Pierre Poilievre
You know, I didn't spend a lot of time on that. I just got back at it. Because at the end of the day, you have to focus on what you can control. And my approach in life is to zero in on what is in your control. That is the greatest thing you can do for your mental health and for your output as a person. I believe in a stoic approach. So I didn't spend a lot of time sort of rolling around on the ground in melancholy.
- [88:02]
Stephen
Do you think that if Trump hadn't have said the thing about taking Canada and he hadn't have done the tariffs, you would be leading Canada right now.
- [88:10]
Pierre Poilievre
We'll never know. I mean, these are the kinds of things you speculate about, but at the end of the day, what good does it do to speculate? And I also don't like to make excuses. I don't like to say, look, if this person hadn't done X, then I would be in charge. I have to own my result. And that. That's what I do.
- [88:27]
Stephen
As someone that doesn't know a ton about this stuff, I'm asking, kind of, for me, I find it interesting to see how consequential these. What do they call them? Not butterfly effects or how the unexpected dominoes can fall and change the course of history. So if Trump hadn't have said those things, if we were to speculate, do you think it would have changed the outcome of the election?
- [88:50]
Pierre Poilievre
I don't know. Because we don't know what would have happened in absence of that.
- [88:53]
Stephen
If you have to bet your house.
- [88:55]
Pierre Poilievre
I don't have to bet my house. I don't want to blame someone else for the outcome of the election because at the end of the day, the people voted and they made their decision, and I have to be at peace with it. So I can't spend my time thinking on what ifs, because if that what if hadn't happened, then there might have been another what if. So I have to focus on what
- [89:15]
Stephen
I can control, dealing with those moments. You mentioned stoicism. I found this book, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, which I think was quite formative for how you see things in some respects and generally stoicism.
- [89:27]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes, it's a great book. The amazing thing about it is it's so readable. Like he talks about, this is just a random page, but it's a very interesting excerpt. When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself, the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. They are like this because they can't tell good from evil. But if you go on and read it, what it basically says is expect these things, and if you do, but don't be controlled by them, these are factors outside of your control. Put all of your emphasis on the things that are within your control and it will bring a tremendous amount of peace. Because when you are focused on what you can control, you're the boss of your life. And that's what stoicism has done for me.
- [90:14]
Stephen
I heard you say you're not acted upon.
- [90:17]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. When you focus on what you can control, you are the actor rather than the acted upon. If you say, if you spend a lot of your time thinking about the things you cannot control, then you become a helpless victim. Whereas if you focus on what you can, then you become like the driver of the car. You decide where it goes. And as my favorite poem says, Invictus, that Nelson Mandela used to read himself when he was in prison for all those years in South Africa. He would recite to himself the poem Invictus to remind him that he could focus on what he was in control of, which was his own soul. I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul is how it ends. And that gives you a lot of peace.
- [91:07]
Stephen
One of the things you often find in stoicism and other sort of teachings of that time is this idea of being flexibly minded in terms of being able to learn and being growth minded and being able to evolve. I was wondering, as you went on that campaign trail and generally over the last 10 years of your career, it's clear to me that your core principles have been quite consistent. I have this document you wrote when you were, I think, 20 years old, which was part of a contest where you won $10,000.
- [91:37]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [91:37]
Stephen
For explaining what you would do if you were Prime Minister, if you were leading Canada.
- [91:42]
Pierre Poilievre
You even dug up the check.
- [91:43]
Stephen
I found the cheque. It wasn't cashed. No, it's a fake check.
- [91:46]
Pierre Poilievre
We'll go have lunch.
- [91:47]
Stephen
So you won $10,000 for submitting this when you were 20 years old, explaining what you would do if you ever became the prime minister.
- [91:56]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [91:57]
Stephen
And I would like you to actually just read the opening three paragraphs, because it does. It is quite interesting to see how you've evolved, if at all. Could you just read those first three paragraphs and any other of the context which I might have excluded?
- [92:10]
Pierre Poilievre
Sure. Although we Canadians seldom recognize it. The most important guardian of our living standards is freedom. Freedom to earn a living and share the fruits of our labor with loved ones. The freedom to build personal prosperity through risk taking and strong work ethic. The freedom of thought and speech, the freedom to make personal choices, and the collective freedom of citizens to govern their own affairs democratically. Government's job is to constantly find ways to remove itself from obstructing such freedoms. Human beings are graced with the gifts of creativity, wisdom and ingenuity. The best way for a society to go about improving its living standards is to allow citizens to apply these qualities to the challenges of everyday life. Asking a Prime Minister to single handedly improve the living standards of 30 million of the world's brightest is as about as realistic as asking him to take to an Olympic sprinting track to help a lineup of world class athletes reach the finish line. The more the government becomes involved in the race, the greater the number of hurdles competitors will encounter. Therefore, as Prime Minister, what I would do to improve living standards is not nearly as important as what I would not do as Prime Minister. I would relinquish to citizens as much of my social, political and economic control as possible, leaving people to cultivate their own personal prosperity and to govern their own affairs as directly as possible.
- [93:34]
Stephen
In the last decade, since you've been out on the road more speaking to people, campaigning, where have your views evolved?
- [93:45]
Pierre Poilievre
I would say my temperament has matured. Ten years ago, I did not have a wife and kids. As a father, you end up having to grow in a tremendous amount of patience because kids don't do what they're told or they have needs that must supersede your own. You're constantly making compromises with a spouse in order to juggle all of the difficulties of family life. And that necessarily spills over into your political approach. I think temperamentally I've changed. I'm much more careful and thoughtful than I was, say, in my late 20s and early 30s.
- [94:25]
Stephen
The people that have opposition parties have often referred to you as Trump Lite.
- [94:31]
Pierre Poilievre
And what do they base that on?
- [94:33]
Stephen
I guess because you're both conservatives. I guess that would be much of the argument. And you both have spoken out against this term Wokeism and dei.
- [94:43]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah, look on dei and I don't think that is something particular to President Trump. I mean, there's a lot of people around the world who, for their own reasons and based on their own experiences, have criticized that particular ideology. What I think has changed is that liberals used to believe in liberty and conservatives believed in conserving it. You know, they used to say liberals were the gas pedal, conservatives were the brake, but we were both heading in generally the same direction. But what I think happened with Wokeism is that it is a deeply illiberal ideology. It is liberalism. Traditional liberalism was a colorblind ideology. It was based on total equality regardless of gender, sexuality, race or anything else. Wokeism is exactly the opposite of that. It accentuates all of those differences and disagreements. It. It groups people based on what should be irrelevant characteristics like race and gender. And then having divided people into groups, it seeks to expand state control over their lives. What I believe in is treating people as individuals and letting them live their own lives, judging them exclusively on their own merits. And I think that was the consensus view of both Liberals and conservatives up until this toxic ideology came along and divided people.
- [96:13]
Stephen
One of the things I, you know, I'm a black man. I was, I moved from Botswana when I was a baby and came to the UK and thank God there was sort of social systems in place because I don't think that I would have had the outcomes I'd had. One of the things that I did know though when I was 18, dropped out of university and started to get into world of business, is I was aware because when you look at like funding data for entrepreneurs that are black or especially women, it's clear that there's like a systemic disadvantage of some sort. And I wonder, someone like yourself, who's against this sort of DEI ideology, how do you contend with like systemic institutional discrimination towards certain groups which does pose objectively real disadvantage on them being able to climb the ladder? Because you said something earlier about your goal being in Canada to make sure everybody like has a fair shot.
- [97:03]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right.
- [97:04]
Stephen
How does one counteract the systemic issues around race or gender or whatever it might be that stop that being possible? Because I found myself in an interesting position where like on one end I'm like, I want to be treated like everybody else.
- [97:17]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [97:17]
Stephen
And I've always felt that way and I've always, I've always actually to some degree cringed a little bit when I felt like someone was giving me special treatment because my skin color was different. Because it, it in some way made me feel like I was at a disadvantage, which I know can become quite self fulfilling. However, on the other side of the spectrum, I do also believe that there is like systemic discrimination that is going to hold certain groups back if there isn't something done to level that playing field.
- [97:49]
Pierre Poilievre
So look, I think the answer is equality. There has to be strict equality and equal treatment regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, religion. And that is the ideal to which we were all striving. And I think if we get back to that, then we can give everybody a chance to achieve based on their own merit. What we need is a meritocracy that is colorblind and judges people based on what they can do.
- [98:18]
Stephen
People aren't colorblind though, are they?
- [98:20]
Pierre Poilievre
No.
- [98:21]
Stephen
I think my dad said to me when I was younger, he said, everybody's prejudice. I remember sitting in the back of the car, my dad's White. And I'm thinking my dad just said that he thinks everyone might be racist and everyone's prejudiced. I'm like, is my dad racist? But as I've gotten older, I realized that he to some degree is telling the truth, that prejudice is part of how we survived as humans and we're able to understand danger from not. So prejudice is something that I think is very prevalent in society, whether we believe we're not and everyone else is. So if prejudice is very prevalent in society, does there need to be measures that counteract that to give everybody a fair chance?
- [98:56]
Pierre Poilievre
Our institutions have to be conscious about making sure that we are judging people based on their merit and they should work aggressively to make sure that everyone, regardless of where they come from, their background, has a chance to succeed, get the job, get the promotion, move up the ladder. I don't think that is achieved by breaking people down into more and more different groups and divisions, by trying to build the barriers between people based on race and gender. I think it's by actually removing them. So the problem I have with wokeism is it seems almost designed to divide people. And that is exactly the opposite of the objective that we all sought when we pushed for racial equality and personal freedom and responsibility.
- [99:49]
Stephen
How does one contend with the systemic issues though, the prejudices? I remember reading about studies where if they got a bunch of people and got them to apply for jobs and just based on the names, whether they were a typically white name versus say a typically black name, the response rate is markedly different.
- [100:07]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, I go back to my first principles. I think that government is responsible for a lot of the barriers that are put in place. So let me give you some examples. When government brings into place these anti housing policies that I described, they impact far more on minorities and disadvantaged people than they do on established people. Obviously, because if you're new to a country or you come from a poorer background, you won't have a house and then you're the one who's going to pay the biggest price for the fact that government is making housing unaffordable. If you think at the occupational licensing rules that I just described that block immigrants from working in their professions even when they're thoroughly qualified, those are government imposed obstacles that prevent people from getting ahead. Also, a lot of these soft on crime policies have been sold to us on the grounds that they're going to help minorities by ensuring that we don't have as high a conviction rate. Well, what they've actually done is that in many minority communities where the law abiding people are now suffering as a result of criminals of all backgrounds. And so ironically, it's actually government policies that are causing people of disadvantaged backgrounds to suffer even more. So Wokeism accentuates all of those problems rather than solving them. So I'm interested in solving problems to give everybody the opportunity to live a safe, affordable, opportunity filled life. And Wokeism is not doing that. Actually creating a free market, free enterprise economy with free people who have free speech. That's the single best way to give people of all racial backgrounds a better chance in life.
- [101:48]
Stephen
Again, I'm holding the position of the DEI to try and I like the clash of ideas because it helps me to think through these things. I've never had the chance to ask somebody these kind of questions before. And on that point of housing, one of the things that I found to be quite surprising was that black mortgage applicants are up to 200% more likely to be denied a home loan than white applicants with the similar financial profile.
- [102:11]
Pierre Poilievre
This is in Canada.
- [102:12]
Stephen
These stats are for the west. So. But what is going on there? Because it says that they have similar financial profiles, yet their applications are being denied up to 200% more than white home buyers.
- [102:29]
Pierre Poilievre
So I had not seen that data point before, but I would say that these sound like really stupid bankers because they're making a bad decision to deny people a mortgage and ultimately deny themselves the business if that's how they're making their judgments.
- [102:45]
Stephen
And then DEI comes in to make sure that their judgments aren't stupid.
- [102:48]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, I'm not sure that DEI cures stupidity, though in some cases we've seen it cause more.
- [102:55]
Stephen
That's how it shows up. Right. It's like a logical next step, which is there's prejudice going on in the system, which is making inequal for some groups. And DEI becomes this corrective measure. So those stupid bankers don't make stupid decisions.
- [103:09]
Pierre Poilievre
But DEI has been in place now for several decades. And how is it working? You're reading the statistics to show that it's not. So maybe it's not actually doing what it's designed to do. Maybe it's doing other things.
- [103:21]
Stephen
The other thing that I actually was really keen to talk about and I just realized is sure is this.
- [103:26]
Pierre Poilievre
Oh, that's little Valentina there. She loves to be on daddy's shoulders.
- [103:31]
Stephen
How old is Valentina?
- [103:32]
Pierre Poilievre
Valentina is seven years old.
- [103:33]
Stephen
Seven years old. And she's non verbal.
- [103:36]
Pierre Poilievre
She's non verbal? Yes.
- [103:37]
Stephen
What does non verbal mean?
- [103:40]
Pierre Poilievre
She is autistic. She's on the spectrum.
- [103:43]
Stephen
So
- [103:46]
Pierre Poilievre
the Biggest difference between Valentyna and other children is the ability to communicate verbally. So we're working very hard on that. She's making some encouraging progress, but she does have some challenges in that area. She's very acrobatic and rambunctious. She loves to climb, swing, bounce, jump. And she is extremely affectionate. And one of the superpowers she has is that whatever she does, she does 100%. She's also 100% authentic. So that's not the case. Once kids get old enough to manipulate to get what they want, they can put on acts and artifices. She doesn't do that. She's the real deal all the time. You know exactly how she feels because she indicates it. And she's very blessed to have a little brother Cruz who adores her and treats her better than anyone else in the world.
- [104:42]
Stephen
I often hear parents talk about the concerns with, you know, someone like Valentina growing up in the world as non verbal. You're not going to be here forever to protect her. And, you know, saying to you before, my brother has three kids under the age of what, seven years old now, and I've noticed just how much he thinks about how they're going to be when he's not here. How does that relate to Valentyna being non verbal and how you think about the future?
- [105:08]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, a lot of things. Like one, we obviously have to build up a nest egg for her so that if she can't earn income, she will have the resources for a great life after we're gone. And second, we're really hoping that we forge a very permanent and deep bond between her and her brother Cruz, because he will be there. And one of the things he says again and again is my job is to protect Valentyna from bad guys. So this is a good attitude. Especially that they are actually in the same class. Even though she's older, she is in his class at school and so he's daddy's eyes to protect our little princess. But I think when he's older, I believe based on his nature, that he's going to be there for her. And we are building a plan towards that.
- [106:02]
Stephen
My job is to protect Valentina from bad guys.
- [106:04]
Pierre Poilievre
That's right. It's a great instinct.
- [106:11]
Stephen
How has it changed your politics?
- [106:17]
Pierre Poilievre
It's reinforced my sense of compassion for people who can't provide for themselves. And I've talked a lot about how government should be limited. I do think there's a very real role for government to help people who genuinely cannot provide for themselves. People who suffer from. With disabilities being probably the best example. And it has reinforced to me that we have to also have policies that recognize the inherent worth of every individual. Too often governments have seen people with disabilities as just someone they have to care for, but not someone who can contribute. And I believe that everybody has something to contribute and that we should try to unlock that in every human being. We don't know exactly what Valentyna will do, but I believe she will do some kind of a job at some point in the future. And I'm very passionate about policies that enable people with disabilities to have work opportunities, even if it's just very limited, to design programs so that when they have a. For example, cash or medication support, it doesn't get robbed from them just because they get a job. So it has focused my mind a lot on people. It gives you a sense of compassionate, because when you see somebody who might be different, like I see my daughter in that person, I see my daughter often. My wife is very good at this. She'll see someone who might be acting differently in a crowd and other people are looking at that person, and she'll grab my hand, she'll say, I think he's autistic. And then she will often go and talk to that boy and make him feel loved. So compassion is about feeling what the other person feels. And you have a greater ability to do that when there's a loved one close to you who has the experience.
- [108:09]
Stephen
An interesting range of emotions to be the father, the parent of a autistic child.
- [108:16]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [108:16]
Stephen
I know this because I get messages en masse from our audience members who have an autistic child.
- [108:22]
Pierre Poilievre
Yes.
- [108:24]
Stephen
What can you say to the range of emotions you feel?
- [108:27]
Pierre Poilievre
My wife was able to discern that there was something different about Valentyna very early on, when she was still a baby, because she didn't make a lot of eye contact. And there was a period during which she was not very communicative at all, Even in ways that babies normally are. There wasn't a lot of reciprocal communication to start with. So when we went for the diagnosis, we were not that shocked. So, you know, when the. I think she was a nurse or she was a specialist gave us the diagnosis and she was, like, paused, like, waiting for us to burst into tears. I mean, we were just kind of like, yeah, we expected that and let's get on with it. And then we just started doing the things that we had to do. And my message to parents of autistic children is just focus on what you can control. Get onto the things that you have control. Get a speech therapist, get the play structures in the house that they love. With Valentina, it's a bouncy castle and a little trampoline and a lot of building blocks and enjoy them. She's so much fun. She's a fun little girl. She loves to jump. She's scared of nothing. If anything, the problem is she's a bit too much of a daredevil, but she's a thrilling little girl to be around. She loves to. You see all the pictures with her on my shoulder. She always loves to climb on my back. And she loves to run. She loves me to run with her on her shoulders. So, like, enjoy the special things that they bring, because they are magical. They're wonderful. They're just. They call it autism because they're auto. They're in their own world. You can't force them to be in your world. You have to go into their world and reach them there and understand that for her, tapping on something might give her a tremendous sensation that we can't appreciate. On the other side, minor irritants that you and I would brush off might drive her completely crazy. And so if she's having a meltdown, it's not because she's a bad kid. It's because she's going through a horrific sensation that we can't quite understand. But you just have to embrace it all. And it's a lot of extra legwork that goes into a child that has these conditions. But it's worth it, and it's rewarding in the end.
- [110:44]
Stephen
She, you know, obviously not met her, but from all the photos, she makes you smile.
- [110:48]
Pierre Poilievre
Just looking at the photos, she makes everyone smile. And she's got. She's very popular at school. The kids are very nice to her, by the way. Like, we get secondhand reports, and it's like, they love her. They're sweet to her. She has a little boy that has a crush on her, so I'm keeping an eye on that. But she's so affectionate. Like, we went to a fall fair one time, and there were these little old ladies sitting there, and Valentina just decided she liked this little old lady and went and sat on her lap like complete stranger. But that's how she is. She decides she likes you, and you're in.
- [111:22]
Stephen
What are your closing statements? We've got listeners that are, you know, all over the world to the United States, Canada, Australia, the uk if you had to send one final message to them, what would that message be? In this moment in time that we find ourselves in.
- [111:37]
Pierre Poilievre
Well, I'm actually optimistic about the future, and I think Canada's got a very bright future. I think the world should look to Canada. We have the most resources of anyone in the world. We have probably the most diverse and educated population. We have the most fresh water, the. The second biggest land mass. And I think it's going. The future belongs to Canada. We're going to be an incredible place, the envy of the world, if we do the right things. I don't want to be egotistical about it, but I think it would help if I were Prime Minister as well.
- [112:09]
Stephen
I love Canada. It's one of my favourite places in the world for so many reasons. I told you, when I went to Toronto for the first time, I felt like I was at home.
- [112:16]
Pierre Poilievre
Yeah.
- [112:17]
Stephen
Because I think, you know, Brits and Canadians have a lot in common.
- [112:19]
Pierre Poilievre
Absolutely.
- [112:20]
Stephen
Including a cake. Yeah.
- [112:22]
Pierre Poilievre
You would be very well received in Canada. So consider coming.
- [112:27]
Stephen
I go all the time, whenever I'm. Whenever I'm invited to go, and I've been once or twice on vacation as well. So I hope to be back there soon and actually going to do a tour there at some point with Diary of a SEO to meet all the people that listen. So very excited about that as well.
- [112:39]
Pierre Poilievre
Oh, you'll bring up big crowds. It'll be fun.
- [112:42]
Stephen
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, what are you most afraid of? And how do you deal with that fear?
- [113:01]
Pierre Poilievre
Hmm. I don't have a lot of fears. I mean, for myself, I would say going back to family, it would be that something would happen to my kids. You know, just. You hear terrible, terrible things in the news. I was just. Fortunately, I had to go to a funeral for mass shooting victims in Tumblr Ridge, British Columbia. And I just, you know, every parent worries about something happening to their kids. I think that would be my biggest fear.
- [113:35]
Stephen
What about for Canada at large?
- [113:36]
Pierre Poilievre
The biggest fear I have for Canada is that. But we just keep blocking our own potential and declining and opportunity vanishes and slowly our people lose the promise that the country gave me and so many generations. And so my fear is that we become the frog in boiling water and it just gets slowly warmer and warmer and warmer and the frog really never notices.
- [114:06]
Stephen
Is that the trajectory of travel?
- [114:09]
Pierre Poilievre
I think it is, unfortunately. But I think we can change that trajectory if we make some big reversals
- [114:15]
Stephen
in direction and lastly, what about for the world, generally, the Western world?
- [114:22]
Pierre Poilievre
I would say my biggest fear is that the Western world does not stay true to its foundational principles. I want the Western world to stay true to the basic principles of that grew out of the Magna Carta of freedom, of government, that is, servant people that are masters, and that the free democracies not only succeed at home, but work together abroad to preserve that civilization.
- [114:51]
Stephen
Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to come have this conversation with me and answering all of my questions. I don't like interviewing politicians because they are very slippery.
- [115:01]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [115:01]
Stephen
And they slip and slide away from answering things in a way that makes the very essence of why we started this show feel like we're, like we're not delivering for the audience who want to know the truth, whether it's ugly or indifferent or whatever it might be. And I've really enjoyed the conversation because I feel like you answered my questions to the best of your ability.
- [115:19]
Pierre Poilievre
Thank you.
- [115:20]
Stephen
And that's often. That's not usually the case with politicians.
- [115:23]
Pierre Poilievre
Thank you.
- [115:23]
Stephen
I think they think that's the right approach. But actually, I think in a world that's now more of a glass box than ever before and not a black box where you can paint the image of something on the outside being transparent and being willing to come into these environments and your team didn't tell me anything was off limits. They didn't say there was anything I couldn't ask you.
- [115:40]
Pierre Poilievre
Right.
- [115:40]
Stephen
They didn't ask to be able to edit this. And I would like more politicians to follow in that vein.
- [116:10]
Pierre Poilievre
For Those with type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure, you may be missing a hidden signal from your kidneys, an SOS for an increased risk of cardiovascular events like heart attack or stroke. The mission Detect the SOS. Start@DetectTheSOS.com Learn how a simple UACR urine test can help identify kidney damage early. Talk to your doctor about getting screened. Go to detectthesos.com to learn more about UACR urine testing today, brought to you by Behringer Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals, Inc.