Podcast Summary: "Secret Service Agent: Never Label Someone A Narcissist! This Habit Makes People Hate Talking To You!"

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Guest: Desmond O'Neill, former Secret Service Agent
Date: December 1, 2025

Overview

This episode features Desmond O’Neill, a seasoned Secret Service agent and interrogation trainer, who shares science-backed communication strategies for handling difficult conversations. Rather than relying on outdated tactics or labeling others (e.g., as "narcissists"), Desmond offers a structured framework (PLAN) and hard-won insights from decades of interrogations, leadership, and psychological research. The discussion reveals how to approach emotionally charged confrontations, build genuine connections, maintain composure, and foster trust—skills that apply to the workplace, personal relationships, and self-leadership.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Don’t Label People—Especially as “Narcissists”

• The Pitfall of Labeling (08:51):
  • Desmond: “If you just blatantly label somebody as being like, this person's a narcissist, you've just made it easy for yourself. [You’ve] put blame on them, and you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and why they are the way they are." (09:19)
  • Labels simplify but don’t address the person’s motives or allow for understanding; they kill curiosity and prevent authentic connection.

2. The PLAN Framework for Difficult Conversations

Desmond introduces his PLAN acronym: Purpose, Listen, Ask, Next steps.

P: Purpose (11:00, 14:49)

• Know precisely why you’re having the conversation—define your "mission."
• Desmond: “If you lose your cool, you lose control. And then there’s the A to ask.” (00:49)
• Multiple goals (task, identity, relational) can compete during tough conversations—stay anchored to your goal.

L: Listen (21:55)

• Active, attentive listening is hard but crucial. Avoid the trap of waiting for your turn to talk.
• Desmond: “Most people don’t listen with the intent to understand. They listen with the intent to reply.” (23:49)
• Manage your cognitive bandwidth to be genuinely present.

A: Ask (24:20)

• Demonstrate curiosity; don’t assume you know what the other person is thinking (empathy accuracy is low, especially as emotions rise).
• Desmond: “Your ability to be empathetic when things are hard becomes harder. And you have to be very mindful of that.” (25:08)
• Ask clarifying questions about both verbal and nonverbal cues.

N: Next Steps (31:44)

• Work toward a constructive resolution.
• Desmond: “How best do we do that? There is no magic bullet by which makes everything, every conversation, go perfect. There is none.” (32:09)

3. Body Language and Deception

• Focus on changes in state or behavior, not specific gestures—context matters.
• Desmond: “If you see something that is a change… then you need to be curious about it.” (30:50)
• Truthful people are consistent even when dealing with complications in their stories; liars struggle when stories get complex. (18:30–19:42)

4. Handling Insults and Emotional Manipulation

• Remain anchored to your purpose; call out hostile behavior specifically, but calmly.
• Desmond: “If you lose your cool, you lose control." (37:10)
• Don’t be drawn into emotional escalation—address the behavior (“It seems like you’re being condescending…”) and ask for clarification.

5. Influence vs. Manipulation

• Influence seeks outcomes that benefit both parties and is rooted in honesty and transparency.
• Manipulation seeks personal gain, often at the other’s expense, and typically involves deceit. (46:34–48:52)
• Desmond: “Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction…that’s beneficial for both.” (46:34)
• Authenticity and vulnerability are what build trust and influence.

6. Building and Maintaining Trust

• Trust starts with yourself—self-trust is foundational. (52:26)
• Give trust selectively and guard it; once lost, trust is arduous to regain and requires accountability and consistency. (55:03)

7. Leadership and Decision-Making Under Uncertainty

• True leadership is keeping calm under chaos—making clear decisions even with incomplete information.
• Desmond: “I think if you’re only a leader when it’s calm, then you’re not really a leader. You’re somebody with a higher salary and a title.” (58:30)
• Leaders own their decisions without excessive regret—reflection is for learning, not for living backward. (77:33–78:49)

8. The Power of Rapport

• Robust rapport is more than being nice—it’s about showing attentiveness, recognizing values, and making the other person feel seen and heard. (67:53)
• Real rapport means handling the other’s concerns before your agenda. (69:49–71:10)

9. Common Communication Mistakes to Avoid

• Stop trying to be right.
• Stop telling people “I understand.”
• Stop giving unsolicited opinions. (72:03)
• Example: Instead of claiming to understand, express curiosity and acknowledge without hijacking the narrative.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Labeling/Judgment:
  “If you just blatantly label somebody…you've just made it easy for yourself and you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and why they are the way they are.”
  —Desmond (09:19)

• On Listening:
  “Most people don't listen with the intent to understand. They listen with the intent to reply. And if you are simply just waiting for your turn to talk, then you and I are not connecting.”
  —Desmond (23:49)

• On Losing Composure:
  “If you lose your cool, you lose control.”
  —Desmond (37:10)

• On Influence vs Manipulation:
  “Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction…that’s beneficial for both you and them. Manipulation is you nudging…because it’s good for you, it’s not good for them.”
  —Desmond (46:34)

• On Leadership:
  “If you're only a leader when it's calm, then you're not really a leader. You're somebody with a higher salary and a title… leadership really shows up…when things are uncertain.”
  —Desmond (58:30)

• On Trust and Regret:
  “Trust is about being vulnerable.... If you lose somebody's trust, it's really, really hard to get back.”
  —Desmond (51:34, 55:03)

  “I own my decisions…the things that I have done. All of those decisions have manifested itself for me to sit down here with you today and have this conversation. So I can't tell you that there's something…I regret.”
  —Desmond (77:33)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Labeling and Gaslighting: 08:51–11:00
• The PLAN Framework: 11:00–32:09
• Body Language and Deception: 28:37–30:50, 18:30–19:42
• Handling Insults: 33:37–37:10
• Influence vs Manipulation: 46:30–49:14
• Building Trust: 51:28–55:29
• Leadership & Decisiveness: 55:29–65:29
• Building Rapport: 67:53–71:10
• Communication Mistakes to Avoid: 72:03–76:15
• Regret and Growth: 77:33–78:49

Conclusion

Desmond O’Neill’s rich experience distills into practical wisdom: approach difficult conversations with a clear purpose, listen deeply, ask clarifying questions, and co-create next steps. Avoid labeling, resist the need to be right, and lead with authenticity and composure. Ultimately, communication isn’t just about winning arguments but about building trust, understanding, and connection—with others and yourself.