The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

Episode: The Gaslighting & Conversation Expert: This Is A Sign You’ll Divorce in 10 Years!
Date: December 22, 2025
Guest: Jefferson Fisher (Board Certified Trial Lawyer, Conflict & Communication Expert)

EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode explores how everyday conversation shapes the quality of our relationships, our careers, and even our self-worth. Host Steven Bartlett welcomes Jefferson Fisher, a trial attorney and renowned expert on conflict resolution and communication, to break down why most relationships fall apart—not because of a lack of love, but due to a failure in communication. The episode touches on the dangers of gaslighting, the realities of dealing with narcissists, the importance of presence, and the attributes of truly masterful communicators. The wide-ranging discussion is candid, practical, and packed with actionable advice for anyone seeking better connection in life and work.

KEY THEMES & DISCUSSION POINTS

1. The Five Keys to Masterful Communication

([00:00], [114:24]–[145:12])

Jefferson Fisher shares the five essential skills for exceptional communication, deeply rooted in both his legal career and personal relationships.

1. Authenticity:
   • Presence is the highest form of authenticity.
   • Show up as yourself, not as a curated version—especially when things aren’t perfect.
   • "If I cannot be genuine with you, if I cannot be real with you, then I can be nobody to you." (B, [114:24])
2. Reduce Distraction (Increase Presence):
   • True connection requires minimized distractions (especially phones).
   • Demonstrated with the “string experiment” showing how even holding a phone breaks emotional connection ([117:08]–[121:24]).
   • "Presence is the highest form of authenticity. I can talk to you, but am I here with you?" (B, [98:00])
3. Stop Over-Explaining:
   • Effective communicators choose words carefully, speak succinctly, and are not afraid of silence.
   • Confidence is built on restraint, not on flooding conversations with words.
   • "People who are confident, they don't have to say something to show they know something. They choose their timing." (B, [126:42])
4. Know How to Handle Others’ Sadness:
   • When someone grieves, take real, specific action (not just vague offers of help).
   • Avoid “let me know if you need anything,” which creates a burden for those in pain.
   • “If you really want to be there for me... you don't have to ask. You just go do.” (B, [137:49])
5. Handle Insults, Dismissal, and Patronizing:
   • Use silence and ask others to repeat hurtful remarks, making them reflect on their behavior.
   • Disarm aggression or manipulation with composure and curiosity, not emotional escalation.
   • "The first thing you have to do is have a bunch of silence... Make it enough to where it's uncomfortable." (B, [145:12])

2. Gaslighting: What It Is, How It Damages, and What To Do

([23:04]–[36:50])

• Definition:
  Gaslighting is "psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity." (A, [23:05])
• Difference from Lying:
  "Lying is a surface level... Gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mine." (B, [23:28])
• Everyone Can Be a Gaslighter:
  "I have been the gaslighter. Everybody has been the gaslighter, whether they intentionally know it or not. Because it's all that feeling of preservation, of defensiveness..." (B, [23:28])
• The Cost:
  Gaslighting erodes reality, authenticity, and trust in relationships.
• How Not to Gaslight:
  Avoid self-preserving distortions, aim for radical honesty, and don't put the burden of your insecurity on others.
• If You Think You're Being Gaslit:
  Slow down the conversation, stay grounded in your truth, and avoid being dragged around emotionally.
  "If I am staying still in the conversation... it's standing in the truth of what you know, rather than being concerned and misled..." (B, [27:35])
• Susceptibility:
  Anxious attachment and co-regulators are more at risk—people who seek validation from others, want everyone to be "okay." "[The] people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation, people who are anxious..." (B, [31:08])

3. Narcissists & Manipulators: Handling and Recognizing Them

([36:50]–[47:32]; [39:19]–[44:21]; [44:34]; [52:13])

• Narcissist Traits:
  • Can’t be happy for others
  • Victim mentality
  • Don’t do emotion or empathy
  • Obsessed with external perception
• How Narcissists Manipulate:
  • They play “praise or provoke”—they’ll create conflict or seek adulation, both to maintain control.
  • In professional settings, narcissists often talk more and make everything about them.
• Handling Tactics:
  • Limit interaction/exposure at work or in relationships.
  • Use neutral statements—“Thanks for sharing,” “Noted”—to avoid taking the bait.
  • “If you've ever had somebody come to you... with problems and you go, I just, I can't right at this moment... ten minutes later, what's happened? They've already gone to talk to somebody else.” (B, [44:34])
  • Don’t chase their words—don’t try to plug every hole they dig in argument.
• Differentiating Insecurity from Narcissism:
  • “Not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure... [Narcissists] have no interest in growth; to them they’ve learned all they have to learn.” (B, [43:37])

4. Presence and Non-Verbal Communication:

([12:14]–[20:38]; [99:09]–[106:22])

• Matching Rhythm:
  Speak calmly, slow down, and pull others to your “frequency”—a sign of credibility and leadership.
• Physical Presence:
  “Walk into a room like you've been there before, as if everybody else is just visiting… I have been here before.” (B, [12:27])
• Preparation:
  Know the space, don’t fumble with details—visit venues beforehand for important events ([18:10]).
• Aura:
  “It's a frequency of peace for me... people who seem like they have aura... they're not trying to prove anything." (B, [19:45])
• Bestie Bombing, Over-Complimenting, Disinterest as Fakeness:
  Immediate attachment, excessive compliments, and ignoring others come off as inauthentic ([93:24]–[96:59]).
• Small Gestures Matter:
  Recognizing support staff, using names, showing gratitude—small, specific actions define reputation ([105:21]–[107:22]).

5. Boundaries, Autonomy, and Relationship Dynamics

([63:13]–[76:12])

• Balance Repair and Autonomy:
  Validating your partner’s feelings doesn’t mean surrendering your autonomy; you can validate and still stand your ground.
• Defending Freedom and Hobbies:
  Standing up for your own needs and ensuring your agency can deepen attraction and respect.
• Boundaries Built Over Time:
  Concessions add up. “It appears to be a slippery slope... where you kind of make a concession... and then before you know it, you're behind bars alone.” (A, [76:00])
• Repair vs. Winning:
  “Relationships fall apart because of 100 moments where repair could have happened and it didn't, because you said, ah, this is so stupid. This is so small.” (B, [63:01])

6. Childhood, Family Models, & Generational Patterns

([89:36]–[93:19])

• Our communication styles are directly shaped by what we experienced growing up, including conflict avoidance, aggression, or manipulation.
• “We're all just dealing with other people's inner child... It's just like me as a child facing you as a child.” (A, [89:19])

7. The Ripple Effect of Everyday Words & Actions

([111:04]–[113:22])

• Small moments define how you are remembered and can influence people far beyond your immediate circle.
• Negative and positive comments can imprint for life.
• “The power of your words lasts way longer than you'd ever think. The ripple effect will affect people you've never met.” (B, [111:24])

8. Handling Conflict & Emotional Regulation

([130:11]–[134:25]; [152:08]–[162:38])

• Great leaders are measured by their calm in crisis.
• Presence, emotional regulation, and the ability to slow down benefit both leaders and relationships.
• “The person who goes, let me think about that for a second... you know whatever is about to come out has actually been thought about.” (B, [126:07])
• “If you want to know how well a relationship communicates, look at how often they take timeouts. Because timeouts are... the amount of value you get in just a pause.” (B, [157:17])
• The best predictor of a child's well-being is not parental marital status, but how conflict is handled. ([162:38])

NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• Presence and Authenticity
  “Presence is the highest form of authenticity. I can talk to you, but am I here with you?”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [98:00]

• Gaslighting Explained
  “Lying is a surface level... Gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mine.”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [23:28]

• Repair Over Justice
  “Most relationships don't fall apart because they fell out of love. They fell out of communication because of 100 moments where repair could have happened and it didn't...”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [63:01]

• Narcissists in the Room
  “Not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure.”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [43:37]

• The Power of Small Actions
  “That small thing is often the most memorable, because it’s typically the most overlooked...”
  — Steven Bartlett, [106:22]

• Dealing with Insults
  “Make it enough to where it's uncomfortable... ask them to repeat it. Most of the time, people can't do it.”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [145:12]

• Leadership Calmness
  “In times of crisis, they say, you walk, don't run. When I act like I've been there before... I'm telling everybody else, oh, well if he's not worried, I shouldn't be worried.”
  — Jefferson Fisher, [128:46]

TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 00:00 – The 5 essentials for masterful communication (first mention)
• 23:04 – Gaslighting defined, dangers, and self-analysis
• 36:50 – Frequency of feedback (women most at risk for gaslighting/narcissists)
• 52:13 – How to handle narcissists and emotional manipulation
• 63:01 – The real reason relationships fall apart: lack of repair
• 93:24 – Signs of inauthentic communication ("Bestie bombing," fake flattery)
• 98:00 – Why "presence" is the ultimate form of authenticity
• 106:22 – The power of small gestures in establishing trust & reputation
• 114:24 – Recap of the five most important communication skills
• 126:07 – The power of reflection, silence, thinking before speaking
• 145:12 – How to respond to insults, patronizing, and conflict
• 157:17 – The vital importance of timeouts, repair, and honest energy assessment in relationships
• 162:38 – The biggest predictor of children's wellbeing—how parents handle conflict

FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• Communication is the hidden cost of every life domain: Not speaking up, not repairing, and not being present always add up—like a bill coming due.
• Repair > Perfection: Relationships thrive on the repeated choice to repair—especially after small ruptures.
• Authenticity and presence trump charisma and style.
• Boundaries and validation can coexist: You don’t have to give up your autonomy to be validating and present for others.
• The ripple effect is real: Small actions and words create lasting impressions, far beyond the moment.
• Everyone’s wrestling with their own history: Generational patterns and our earliest models shape how we relate until we choose differently.
• Leadership is calm in crisis: The quiet anchor wins trust and respect—at work and at home.

RECOMMENDED ACTIONS

• Practice silence and measured reflection in hard conversations.
• Invest in presence (put the phone away, especially during meaningful moments).
• When someone is grieving, do something real and specific—don’t just offer.
• Don’t chase antagonists’ arguments; refuse to play their games.
• If you must set a boundary, do it early, talking about needs not just surface symptoms.
• Use timeouts as a tool for repair in relationships.

RESOURCES & NEXT STEPS

• Jefferson Fisher’s Book: [The Next Conversation] (Workbook pre-order link in episode description)
• Jefferson Fisher’s AI Communication Coach: Details in episode description
• DOAC Conversation Cards: [Link in episode description]
• Follow Steven Bartlett: [IG], [LinkedIn]

For those who want to live, love, and lead better—“be specific, be present, be real, and always repair.”