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Tom Aspinall: The UFC Doesn't Want You To Know This! Jon Jones Wasn't Living Like An Athlete!
02:13:36
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- [00:01]
Steven Bartlett
This is the way it feels to move through summer in Lululemon iconic aligned softness without the front seam.
- [00:12]
Tom Aspinall
For our smoothest look and feel ever, Summer won't know what hit it.
- [00:17]
Steven Bartlett
Stretch your limits in the non stop flexibility of the new Lululemon Align no line pant in select stores and@lululemon.com.
- [00:28]
Tom Aspinall
I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now, and I'm scared to fight everybody.
- [00:31]
Steven Bartlett
What about Jon Jones?
- [00:32]
Tom Aspinall
I'd be an idiot otherwise. But now that I understand fear and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much in a way that nothing else can. So I'll be prepared to do whatever I need to do. But I just don't like what he's doing because I can't function knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody. Jon Jones is officially retired. Tom Aspinall is the heavyweight champion of the ufc.
- [00:55]
Steven Bartlett
Did you see this coming? And do you have any idea when you'll be back in the Octagon?
- [01:00]
Tom Aspinall
I do, yeah. Yeah.
- [01:01]
Steven Bartlett
Tom, you're the only ever British heavyweight champion of the ufc. So what advice can you give young men that are struggling to find that sense of purpose?
- [01:08]
Tom Aspinall
It takes years to become an overnight success. I've been going since I was 8 years old, and I've been up against so many tests, from career ending injuries to financial struggles to mental struggles. And at one point, we had three kids. At the age of 25, I had no money. Me, my first profile, about 200 quid. I felt the pressure trying to be a young guy, but having all this responsibility on me, having to borrow money from friends to buy nappies for my kids so I can keep living on this dream. But outlasting people and consistency is massively underrated. And in today's day and age, people just have a lot of options. But that obsessiveness of being 100% focused on something you win.
- [01:46]
Steven Bartlett
Tom, there's this black box in front of me which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career. What is the story behind this?
- [01:54]
Tom Aspinall
It was the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career.
- [02:00]
Steven Bartlett
So ahead of showing you that interview, which we recorded a while ago, I wanted to call Tom and get his first reaction to the news that he's now the UFC's undisputed heavyweight champion in the world. So what I'm about to show you is a conversation I had with Tom hours after the news was announced that he's now the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. And then I'm going to the long form interview that me and Tom had several weeks ago right here in the studio. Enjoy. Quick one, before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please Please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Tom. Did you, did you see this coming?
- [03:12]
Tom Aspinall
Yes, but I just didn't expect it when it happened. I expected it. So next week I'm going to Vegas. I'm going for the. Well, they say it's the biggest fight card of the year, a fight card called International Fight Week. And I knew that I had some news coming on International Fight Week. We got wind that Jon Jones is going to retire and they're going to announce it on International Fight Week. But for some reason they announced it last night. I don't know what that reason is. It took me by surprise at least, but they announced it last night.
- [03:44]
Steven Bartlett
What was your initial honest gut reaction when you found out he was retiring? Where were you? What was your first feeling when you heard that news?
- [03:54]
Tom Aspinall
Well, I only knew 100% actually last night. It was always like rumors of him retiring. He's putting stuff out on the media saying that he's retiring because mma, especially at the elite level, is quite. There's not many people like you hear rumors a lot. So I heard rumors from people close to him that he's going to retire and that he's not living like an athlete who's fighting at the top level anymore and that he's not interested and he's not in the gym and etc. But I knew that there was going to be a decision made by the UFC coming soon whether he's going to continue. And we got it last night for sure. We finally got it confirmed last night. So I am Very happy to get this part of my career behind me in the rearview mirror now.
- [04:36]
Steven Bartlett
But, but how did you feel? Because I think from the conversation we had, which we're going to play in a second, it was clear to me that you wanted to have Jon Jones on your record. You wanted to fight him.
- [04:47]
Tom Aspinall
What I really want is, is the undisputed title. That's really what I was chasing the whole time. I was never really chasing one guy. Jon Jones was always just a bonus because of the stuff, because of the resume that he's got and because of the name that he has and the, the status that he holds within, within the sport, like he's so well respected. I think that would have been a great scalp for me to have on my resume. But ultimately I was chasing the belt. I was chasing being the number one heavyweight fighter in the world, which I am, and I can say that I am now, especially with John not around and he's retired and that's behind us. But ultimately the thing that I wanted really was, was the belt, the fact that John's left the sport. Obviously it would have been better for me career wise to have that name for financially it would have been great as well. But the thing that I was ultimately chasing was the heavyweight title.
- [05:35]
Steven Bartlett
And how do you think about John's decision? Do you, do you view it as a strategic dodge or do you view it as a genuine sort of closing of that chapter in his, of his legacy?
- [05:48]
Tom Aspinall
I think that he's entitled to do whatever he wants. To be honest, I'm not. He's done way more in the sport than I have. So he should do whatever he feels is right. It as speaking as just a fighter here. If it was, if it was so public for me personally, I don't know if my ego could take it having not done it. But that's, that's honestly, that's his prerogative. I don't hold any ill will against him for it and I'm, I'm happy to move on with my career now that it's over because you've got to remember I've not fought for nearly a year now because of this and I've been healthy the whole time. I've been in the gym the whole time. I've been doing exactly what I'm supposed to do as a high level operating athlete at the elite level. So I'm glad that that is behind us now.
- [06:36]
Steven Bartlett
Do you in part, I guess, take this as a bit of a compliment that there was such huge public pressure for him to Fight you. And actually, the route that he chose was to retire instead of fighting you. I mean, that's quite a compliment for someone of Jon Jones stature.
- [06:52]
Tom Aspinall
I try not to let my ego take control of me. I could see why people would think that, but to me, it's just like, maybe when I've retired, I'll consider when I've retired myself, which is not going to happen in the next couple of years at least I'll think about that kind of stuff. But for right now, it's just like, we've got to focus on another fight. We've got to get me active, we've got to get me back out there and doing what, Doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Because right now I've been thinking about that whole situation and being held up and frustrated for almost a year, and it's not. It's what I love doing. I've been. I've been held back for the whole time and it's not been very fun, to be honest with you. So my, the, the ego side of my brain is like, yeah, I've kind of beaten without fighting him. And I did say that. I've said that the whole time that I'm going to retire him without fighting him, but I don't kind of want to harp. Harp on about that, really. I want to kind of just put that behind me and move forward on my own path now, I hear.
- [07:42]
Steven Bartlett
And you know, Jon Jones is a. An unpredictable individual, so there's still a possibility that, that retirement wasn't a legit retirement and that he might get a bit bored and end up, you know, deciding that he wants to come back and fight you. Is that something that you would consider if that were to happen?
- [07:57]
Tom Aspinall
I'm sure with where he's at, he can, like, jump the queue anytime he wants. So, you know, this time a year down the line, we'll have another three or four contenders knocking on for a title shot, I'm sure. But. But anytime someone like him wants to step up and say, listen, I want to fight again, they're going to get an immediate title shot. So I'm never going to count that out. And I'm sure that maybe he's, you know, I'm in a spot in my career where there's not all that much footage out there on me. Maybe he sees something on me in the next few fights and he thinks, you know what? I can beat this guy. I'm going to come back and beat him. So mentally, I'm never counting that out. I think The. The fight is always. It could always pop back up and come back around on me. So that's something that I would obviously accept. But as I said before, I think a lot of people. It confused over the Last kind of 10 months. Ish. Is that I was chasing Jon Jones. That was never the case. I was chasing that. The undisputed heavyweight title. That's it. So if I could, if I do get the opportunity to put Jon Jones on my resume, of course I'll. I'll accept that with open arms. But if not, I'm content. I'll move forward and I'll create my own legacy without him.
- [09:03]
Steven Bartlett
And what has changed overnight? Is there, as a UFC fan, is there anything that I'm unaware of that changes when Dana announces you as the undisputed? Does your contract change? Does. Does. Is there anything that changes other than the fact that you've now got a sort of a clear path and you're now the one being chased? You're no longer chasing?
- [09:20]
Tom Aspinall
Well, I was on because I was an interim, because I was a champion in my own right as well. So I. I was already getting a lot of the. A lot of the perks that come with being a champion. Stuff like pay per view points is something that you get when you're a champion. You also get, you know, pay per view points is where you get a cut of the pay per view sales. Okay, so I don't want to go into the details of my contracts, of course, but you'll get. If someone pays, you know, $60 for a pay per view, you might get $2, you might get $5 per buy, you might get 10 people. Different people have different, different perks in the contract. So I, I was already having that because I was a. I was a champion in my own right anyway. But, yeah, not. Nothing actually really changes. Just the fact that there isn't two belts anymore in the division, which is great. There's one face, one name and one guy in. In the division. And to me, that is what. That's what separates MMA from other sports, Other. Other fight sports, at least is that, for example, in boxing, you can have like 5, 6, 7, 8, even sometimes different organization. You got the WBO, the WBC, the IBO, the IBF, and all these different ones that I don't even know about. And they all have different champions in each organization, whereas, generally speaking, the number one guy in the world is the UFC champion. And before Jon Jones retired, there was two of us in the division, which is a little bit of a strange, strange conundrum that I wasn't comfortable being in. I think that there should be one guy in every division and now that John's gone, obviously we didn't get to fight about it, which I would have liked, but at least there's one guy and I'm happy with that moving forward.
- [10:57]
Steven Bartlett
And who's the number one contender now? You're now being chased, right? You were doing a little bit of chasing in terms of trying to get that unified boat, but, but who in your mind is the number one contender now for the heavyweight title belt?
- [11:10]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, that's, that's. I'm, I'm more than happy being chased. That's fantastic. I, I would rather be the hunted as opposed to the hunter because I, I've been chasing. I, I don't like chasing fights. I like just being the guy and everyone comes to me. That's fantastic. So most of the, I've actually fought a lot of the top 10. One of the guys I've not fought is Cyril Gana, French guy. That's a, a fight that I was, I was actually chasing that fight a few times before. He was, he was ducking and diving around himself a little bit. So he is due a little bit of a beating off me. I look forward to that. A couple more guys down the rankings. A Brazilian guy, Jail Ton Almeida. I've not fought. There's a guy I've already beat called Alexander Volkov who's doing really well for himself as well. So who knows? You never know. In the heavyweight division, there's a couple of up and coming guys who have not mentioned as well. So there's some, some good fights to be made over the next couple of years for sure.
- [12:01]
Steven Bartlett
If I were to say myself, it'd be great to see you fight gun in, in London or in the UK somewhere as your next fight. Did you have any idea what you're doing next and when you'll be back in the Octagon?
- [12:15]
Tom Aspinall
I do, but I also want to keep, I also want to keep my job. So there's not much I can say on it, to be honest. But yeah, yeah, I'm going to be fighting hopefully twice this year. That's, that's my plan at least I think. I think I've wasted enough time now. So we're looking for a quick, we're, we're looking to get a fight booked quick and it's looking like it's going to be, you know, pretty soon anyway. And then hopefully, if everything goes well in the first one, I'm uninjured which is, you know, it's easier said than done, getting through a fight with, with a guy my size and coming out with no injuries. But if I, if I can do that, I would like to fight at the end of the year as well. That'd be perfect.
- [12:58]
Steven Bartlett
And are you off to training now? Are you flying out to Vegas? So I'm assuming you're going to the UFC center out there and starting training?
- [13:06]
Tom Aspinall
No. So I'm, I'm training constantly regardless if I've got a fight or not. The only thing that changes for me is basically intensity in, in the sessions. But I'm actually going to Vegas for. Well, I am the heavyweight champion of the world, so they're going to want me at the big shows, so I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna be showing my face there, doing a little bit of media and stuff. I will of course be doing a little bit of training, you know, just different stuff. I'm working with a new sponsor I'm going to be with till the end of my career, which is champion. So I'll be working with them out there and just doing bits for the ufc, meeting fans and, and doing bits of training, just being around the scene. And I don't often, to be honest, I'm so routine and I'm so routine based and goal focused that I don't like to leave my home routine and training regimen that often. So when I go to the US and do things like this, I like to do as much in a short space of time as possible so I can get back to my. I know what, I know what I need to do to, to be good and to win fights, and that's be at home and be in my routine and be focused. So I don't like to leave my routine too much and go overseas and do all this other stuff. So I'll be killing as many birds with one stone in this trip as possible.
- [14:15]
Steven Bartlett
You're a family man, Tom. I got a real understanding of that in a conversation that I'm about to play your family very close to you, you're a father. What's the reaction been like with your partner, your kids, your father, your parents over the last couple of hours since you've been crowned as the undisputed.
- [14:32]
Tom Aspinall
To be honest, it didn't really make much of a difference. I think a lot of people said the same thing outside of my family as well. It was like you were kind of the champion anyway, because I think the way that Jon Jones played it the last year or so, it Just didn't. A lot of people didn't see him as the. The unified heavyweight champion anyway. So I think a lot of people close to me, like, I told my kids this morning, they were just, like, not bothered at all. Didn't make the slightest bit of difference. I said, look, I'm only telling you so when your friends tell you at school, you'll know. And they were like, okay, fair enough. That. That was it. There was no. There was no great reaction there.
- [15:09]
Steven Bartlett
What did you say to them?
- [15:10]
Tom Aspinall
Well, it was just my. My. It's mainly my oldest son because my. My twins, they're a little bit too young to really understand. They've just turned six, so they don't really get it. But my oldest son's nine, almost. His friends are following MMA a little bit more, so he kind of is starting thinking, it's cool now. So I told my son. I was like, listen, I'll just let you know. Jon Jones retired. I'm the undisputed champion now. I've got. You know, there's one. And he was just like, oh, okay. And I was like, I'm just. I know you're not that bothered. I'm just letting you know. So if your friends say anything, you know. And he was like, okay, thanks.
- [15:42]
Steven Bartlett
John's probably watching this. He has undoubtedly had one of the greatest careers in the history of the ufc, up there with the likes of Khabib and many of the legends through history. What would you say to him if he was watching this? Now.
- [15:57]
Tom Aspinall
That'S a great question. I don't know if he will be watching this. I'm not sure. But if he is, I think he's had an amazing career, and I think he should enjoy the rest of his life. I think if he truly feels like he's done enough, which he keeps saying that he does, he will be at peace. He doesn't need me or anybody else to tell him how good he's done. He should. He'll know it himself. So I hope that he's. He's enjoying his life, he's enjoying his family, and he's celebrating his career because it's been amazing.
- [16:29]
Steven Bartlett
Tom, congratulations. I think I speak on behalf of a lot of Brits and really people all around the world when I say that you're the champion. I think the ufc, especially at the heavyweight division, has really been longing for someone who wants to be active, someone who is seeking the biggest fights, someone who is willing to fight anybody, but also someone that's just really, really relatable, and I think Sends a message to all of all of us that what I'd class is a very normal guy, from humble beginnings, can reach the very top of the professional pyramid as it relates to sports and entertainment. So thank you so much for representing the UK in the ufc, especially at the heavyweight level, which we've never had before. But I will all be rooting for you for so many reasons, because of who you are, but also because of the exciting way that you've conducted yourself in and outside of the Octagon. So I'm going to let you go. We're going to play the interview now that we recorded a little while ago, but, yeah, going to be watching your career very, very closely. And I'm going to be ringside whatever you fight next. I know there's a lot of people that are going to turn out to support you, so thank you so much, Tom.
- [17:34]
Tom Aspinall
Thank you very much for having me. And if you're there, as always, because we know each other now and I know it's difficult when you know somebody personally. Anytime I fight, you gotta strap in, be ready for anything, because it's heavyweight MMA at the highest level and anything can happen. So thank you for having me, Steven, and I look forward to, to seeing you there. Thank you.
- [18:01]
Steven Bartlett
Tom, if I'd met you when you were a kid and I'd asked you, what do you want to be when you're older, what would you have said to me?
- [18:10]
Tom Aspinall
Well, it depends on the age, of course, but I think if you would have asked me from the age of being nine years old and above, I would have said that I'm going to.
- [18:21]
Steven Bartlett
Be UFC heavyweight champion at nine years old.
- [18:24]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. As soon as I kind of like went to a gym and I realized there's people in this gym who are adults and they don't have a regular job and they're just showing up to the gym every day and fighting every few months and getting money for it. Like, I was, I was literally like, this is what I want to do.
- [18:45]
Steven Bartlett
So take me back. So where do you, where do you come from? For someone that doesn't know who you are, they don't know your story, they don't know Tom Aspinall's origin. Where'd you come from?
- [18:54]
Tom Aspinall
So I'm from a place. I was born in Salford, which is like Greater Manchester, and then I moved to a different part of Greater Manchester, a place called Allerton. There's not a lot of stuff going on there, to be honest. I mean, it's just like a normal, working class, blue collar place, do you know what I mean? A lot of families like the parents work in factories, they are mechanics, they plumbers.
- [19:21]
Steven Bartlett
And what were your family in that context?
- [19:23]
Tom Aspinall
So my dad originally worked in it, he got paid some redundancy money and then he decided to start teaching grappling full time, which we're talking, when we're talking like 20 years ago, the grappling industry in the UK was non existent and obviously I was quite a, I was a budding, I wasn't, I wasn't even like a budding prospect at the time. I'd had no fights at the time, but I was training and I was enjoying my training and my dad wanted to spend more time perfecting me to helped me do what I enjoy a little bit more.
- [19:58]
Steven Bartlett
Well, how, how come your dad knew about grappling?
- [20:01]
Tom Aspinall
Because he, he's been into like martial arts for as like a lifetime as well.
- [20:05]
Steven Bartlett
So was he the inspiration for you to go to the gym the first time and start training or so?
- [20:10]
Tom Aspinall
It's difficult to say because I had like a bit of a blurred line as to where I started actually training martial arts. So I started training when I was young, it was my dad's thing more and I just used to go with my dad like to spend some time with my dad because I didn't really have much else to do. But I used to always go down to the gym and when I started training there, like kids classes, like now you can go to the end of the road and there'll be an MMA gym with kids classes on with 20 kids in the class. Like that wasn't my case when I started at 8, 9 years old. Like I used to go to the gym, there used to be 10, 40 year old guys rolling around on the floor with each other and I just used to jump in when there was a smaller guy available. Otherwise I'd just be like kicking the football around the gym or something like that. Like basically I've grown up in gyms, but when I actually started training seriously, that was probably when I was like 14, 13, 14, something like that.
- [21:00]
Steven Bartlett
And was there ever a moment in those early years where you realized or someone said something to you that you can still remember that proved to you that you were better than normal people at this thing?
- [21:11]
Tom Aspinall
I do remember a few instances, like I said, I used to train with adults even when I was a child and I was quite aware even from being young that the adults were like taking it easy on me, you know, like they were letting me get position and letting me do certain things on them, and they weren't really trying as much. And I remember feeling like the adults are starting going harder on me, if that makes sense. Does that make sense? I remember I used to just have all my own way in training because the adults a lot of the time were like, my dad's friends and his students. And then they would all. I would always be around the gym so they'd know me and they take it easy and stuff like that. And then I remember, like, a couple of the. Couple of the guys who I trained with, like, I said, I was like 11, 12 years old. And I remember a couple of the guys, like, it became a lot more physical training. Like, it became a lot more competitive. Whereas before they were just like, letting me do my thing. And then they started fighting back a little bit more. And then I remember thinking, ah, well, I must be all right, like, if they're trying. I remember realizing that people actually started trying against me. And then they finish around and look like they'd done a workout a little bit, rather than just played with a kid, if that makes sense.
- [22:21]
Steven Bartlett
And was that. I'm trying to figure out as well, the. The thing that encouraged you to keep going at that point, because at that age, you can end up playing football, you can end up going and joining this club, you can end up focusing on some drama class that you're doing. But there must have been something that kind of held you in this habit.
- [22:37]
Tom Aspinall
I mean, I definitely tried all that stuff. I definitely. I mean, my area is, like, quite a big rugby area, so, like, rugby league, we play up there. And I definitely delved in that a little bit, but I just never really was my thing, you know, I think because my dad and my brother was heavily involved with martial arts, and that's just where I always felt, like, safe to a degree. He's like, in the gym. I know it sounds really weird, but I felt like when you're involved in martial arts, it's almost like there can be 10 guys in the room and they can all be from different backgrounds, Male, female. One guy can be 12 years old, the other guy can be 65 years old. One guy's retired, the other guy's at college. One guy's black, the other guy's Chinese. It doesn't matter. Like, when you're in there, it does. None of that matters. And everyone just respects each other and gets on, regardless of, like, race, gender, age, what the job is, and none of that stuff matters. Everyone just respects each other the same. And I was always, like, drawn to that more than anything, I was all. That's why I always felt my most comfortable, especially because I was a bit more of a shy kid. I felt like I could really express myself through martial arts. And something else about martial arts is, like, because it's an individual sport, it's, like, always on you if you do well or not. And I realized, like, the more time I put in, the more I got out of it, like, mentally and physically, like, I would get better the more I did it. Whereas with team sports, especially rugby, because that's a team sport, I've done the most. Like, there would be games where I personally had had, like, an amazing game, but the team had lost and I could see the next guy not trying as hard as me, or sometimes vice versa. Sometimes they'd, you know, I'd had a terrible game, but the team had won and everyone would be really happy, and I'd be like, oh, I had a bad game and I couldn't. I could never shake that. I'd always, like, wanna. I always liked control. Control, yeah. Being in charge of, like, my own thing. That MMA in particular is very much that. It's like, if you're not putting the work in, like, you will get exposed, you will get your ego checked, literally on a daily basis if you're not doing what you need to do. And I love that. Like, it gives you a sense of, like, accountability for just your everyday habits, like, your thought process, what you're putting in your body, how much recovery you're getting, how many reps are you doing in the gym? Everything. Like, everything is accounted for publicly. And I quite like that. I quite love that, actually.
- [25:06]
Steven Bartlett
Your mother in this picture, where does she fit into this picture you've painted for me? And who is she?
- [25:11]
Tom Aspinall
First of all, she is the nicest woman that has ever walked the face of the earth. I think she is such a lovely person. Yeah. There is literally, you know, when someone says the term, oh, she's not got. Oh, they've not got a bad bone in the body. That literally applies to my mum. But as far as. So my last fight that I had, which is in Manchester, my hometown, that was the first fight that my mum's ever been to, and I'm already, like, number one in the world. I'm like, bloody hell, mum, you've lived it this long. But, yeah, she. She is. She just stays away from the MMA side of things. She is just a mum, which is great. That's amazing. She is really, really lovely person.
- [25:49]
Steven Bartlett
Why was that the first fight? She'd Ever come to.
- [25:51]
Tom Aspinall
Because it's scary and I.
- [25:54]
Steven Bartlett
You didn't want her to come or.
- [25:55]
Tom Aspinall
No, it's not. No, it's not that I didn't want her to. I was. It's never been, like, her thing, so I would never, like, be like, oh, Mum, can you please come? Because I know it's. I know, like, firsthand, even from, like, teammates fighting, how scary it is for me to be in attendance. So I would never, like, drag along someone who loves me because it's. It's horrendous, to be honest with you. Like, it's such an unpredictable sport that you just never know. So I think my mum came because I was like, look, Mum, I don't want to tell you to come or not come, but this is probably the only time I'm ever going to fight in Manchester. Like, I don't know how many fights I've got left. And I'm under the notion that I would rather retire a little bit too early than a little bit too late, because I've seen the way people get late in the career and I don't want to be like that. So I'm not saying I'm going to retire anytime soon, but I'm just saying, like, most of my fights are in the US now and I don't think you'll ever have a chance to see me fight live again. So I think you should come to this one. And she came and apparently she enjoyed it.
- [26:59]
Steven Bartlett
As you're talking about the role that martial arts has played in your life, it got me thinking about young men in general, because young men in general seem to be really struggling at the moment. When we look at a lot of the statistics around suicidal ideation and purposelessness, and it made me, as you were speaking, I was like, damn, I need to do martial arts. So if there is young men listening to this that are struggling in their lives in any way, what advice would you give them in terms of martial arts or those early life decisions or even later life decisions about, you know, something that they can do to find that sense of purpose that you so clearly found?
- [27:38]
Tom Aspinall
I mean, let me first of all start by saying I would be completely lost without it. I think everybody should do it, honestly, because I think that it puts your ego in check massively because you constantly, like, every time you step onto a mat to train, you get in a. You're getting hit in the face with reality constantly. And if you haven't been like, for me, it's like you're getting hit in the face with reality. And if you're not consistent, that reality will hit you harder and harder each time. So it creates a sense of, like, purpose in your life. You're almost, like, scared. It's not, it's not fear, but it's like you don't want to miss because you don't want to get hit with the reality. Like, you don't want to be inconsistent with your training because you don't want to be hit harder by the reality next time you go. If that makes sense.
- [28:27]
Steven Bartlett
Makes perfect sense.
- [28:28]
Tom Aspinall
I just think that it gives you just a massive structure in your life. And not only that, not, not to mention the stuff like, look, I'm not going to sit here and talk about crime rates or anything like that because I don't know the, the statistics, but I know that in this country especially, crime is pretty high right now. So my friend who's come with me is upstairs, Charlie. He does my social media, and he's also a close, close friend of mine as well. And he's a similar age to me. He's 32. And he's literally just started training because I literally said to him, like, charlie, I say this to everybody who's not involved in martial arts if you need to. And I'm not saying you need to be a world champion, you need to train every. But you need to have a general idea of how to defend yourself if it ever happens. Like, you don't need to be good, you don't need to have a fight. You don't need to be preparing to fight someone in a ring, in a cage or whatever. But I think everybody should be comfortable with a general idea of how to defend themselves if they need to. Whether that be if you own a house, if you have children. Children, if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever, if you have somebody who you might need to protect, who can't protect herself or something that you might need to protect, you need to have some kind of idea on, on how to protect that. In my. That's. That's my opinion, because fighting's a scary thing at the best. It's like I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now, and I'm scared to fight somebody. So, like, I wouldn't like to be completely clueless because it must be so scary. And I think that it would be. I. I would recommend it to anybody of any age to do some kind of martial arts.
- [30:07]
Steven Bartlett
So there's a couple of things you said there, which I'm most certainly gonna ask you about. The first Thing you said was about how martial arts brings the consequence of like a lack of discipline.
- [30:17]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [30:18]
Steven Bartlett
Up close. But also increases the consequence. And I was thinking, as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh my God, this is so true. Because if I. If I'm a 18 year old guy and I'm sat on the sofa at home doing nothing with my life, the consequence of that is quite hard to see in the short term. What you're saying is by doing martial arts, the consequence becomes weakly and becomes. You're going to get your fucking nose broken. Yeah, so. So that's motivating to get you, get your life together. And then the other thing you said is I'm the number one in the world and even I'm scared to fight somebody who, Who?
- [30:48]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, everybody. I don't want to fight anybody. I mean, I want to fight professionally, I love doing that. But I mean, as far as like a confrontation with somebody, that's the last thing I'm trying to do. I don't want to do that with anybody.
- [31:01]
Steven Bartlett
So you weren't saying that you're scared to fight a particular person?
- [31:04]
Tom Aspinall
Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm scared to fight everybody. Yeah. And I think that for professional combat athletes across the board, whether that's boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, mma, whatever you're into, I think that's like a very, very taboo subject is like fear. Because everybody wants to be this like big, like I'm a frigging 6 foot 5, 115 kilo guy with like cauliflower ears and everything, like tattoos, the whole lot. It's pretty difficult to sit here and say, like, I'm scared to fight anybody and like have that and be. And be literally the number one heavyweight in the world. But kind of the realization of the fear that I've got now that I understand fear and what it is and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much to do what I do. In MMA we have terms like a gym warrior. People call it like someone who spars in the gym really, really well. And then they get under the lights and they don't fight anywhere near what they do in the gym. Now, generally speaking, that is because they don't understand fear properly. And I think I've got in a place where I completely understand that fear fuels me in a way that nothing else can fuel me. And I'm completely comfortable with it.
- [32:23]
Steven Bartlett
I'm super intrigued by this. So I want to talk about this, this idea of fear, but also the journey that you've been on with Fear.
- [32:31]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [32:31]
Steven Bartlett
So have you always been fearful to find people?
- [32:34]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. And I think that if you're not, you either lying to yourself or are you a complete idiot? Yeah, I think. I think if you are going to sit in an arena and the arena's packed to the rims with 20 plus thousand people, and there's another guy over the other side of the arena waiting to fight you who's trained for the last 10 weeks, and you've got to meet them in the center of the octagon with millions of people watching around the world and know that you can get separated from your own consciousness and you're not scared. You're either lying to yourself or you're just a complete idiot with your mum.
- [33:09]
Steven Bartlett
Watching for the first time. Yeah. I mean, I see you guys do the walkouts and I'm just like, wow.
- [33:22]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, it's crazy.
- [33:23]
Steven Bartlett
It's hard to ever comment on someone being good or bad at something that it takes that much courage to do, that I've clearly not demonstrated in my own life. So, Sophia, so you've always been scared to. You've always had fear when faced with an opponent, but you also alluded to the fact that there's work that you've done to overcome that fear or put it into perspective, I guess.
- [33:42]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [33:42]
Steven Bartlett
What's that work?
- [33:44]
Tom Aspinall
The gym warrior and the guy who's under the lights can be two different people. And I've seen it a lot over the years. I've seen it so much. Still see it now. Still see it all the time. See, when you train, this is my personal opinion, this is not facts, but this is my personal opinion. I would say the training aspect is probably around 80% physical and 20% mental. The training aspect, on fight night, when you are in that arena and you are, you have got them bright lights beaming down on you and you can hear the crowd going crazy, and you know that there's millions of people watching you. You've got them tiny gloves on. There's another massive guy stood across from you with his shirt off. I believe it completely flips and becomes about 80 plus percent mental. I remember somebody actually can't remember who it was. It might have even been on a podcast or something saying, look, we spend all this time preparing physically because to be an MMA fighter, you have to dedicate a lot of time, and I mean a lot of time to prepare physically. So that can be, you know, I train around about between three and five hours a day, possibly on the physical training. And that's not to mention the stretching the eating, the sleeping, the physio, the saunas, the. All the other stuff that comes with becoming a good athlete. So I'm probably dedicating a solid most of the 24 hours a day, if you're going to count sleeping as well, which I believe is a part of being a professional athlete, is dedicated to me becoming the best version and athlete of myself as possible. Now, you're dedicating all that time to training physically. How much are you dedicating to mental. The mental aspect. And if you would ask most fighters, especially at the top level, you're talking top 10 guys in the world, what do you think is the most important aspect? The physical side of the mental side, I will guarantee at least 50% of them guys would say the mental side. Now, if you're comparing mental and physical, we're spending this much time on the physical side, but this much time on the mental side, next to nothing. And I could see a massive discrepancy in that. And I wanted to bring the. Bring the mental side up.
- [35:57]
Steven Bartlett
So you're in the mental gym, too?
- [35:59]
Tom Aspinall
All the time.
- [35:59]
Steven Bartlett
And what is that?
- [36:01]
Tom Aspinall
A lot of. A lot of visualization.
- [36:03]
Steven Bartlett
Okay, so talk me through this. Give me. I want as much detail as possible. Okay.
- [36:06]
Tom Aspinall
Okay. So I work with a hypnotherapist, which I think is very important. Yeah, I write stuff down. I have stuff where I can see it. I'll look at that a lot. Even stuff like, I'm just a massive daydreamer. Massive daydreamer. And I can just see in my mind clearly this is something that's programmed into me for years and years. It's almost like mental. See, in mma, we have a term, and I don't know if this goes across the board, but we call it drilling. So, like, if there's a technique, if you're practicing like I want to, and you're doing it repeatedly, you call it drilling. You drilling. A 1, 2. Drilling is like repetition, repetition. I like mentally drill situations. So when you're talking about the walkout, when I'm physically walking out mentally, I've walked out 10,000 times before. I've actually physically walked out. So by the time I'm there physically, I've been there so many times mentally, that it feels quite. Quite normal to me. And then I constantly tell myself that I got to enjoy it, because I'm completely aware now, especially I'm closer to the end than I am the beginning now. Definitely. I don't know when I'm going to retire. I have no plans to retire right now. But I'm definitely close to the end and the beginning and the moments that we have, these walkout moments, these fear moments, have been stood in the cage with another guy who stood in the cage with me. And we know that once these officials get out the ring and they close that cage, we are going to fight and someone is going to win and someone's going to lose. Like those are really special moments and you have to enjoy them. Because when I'm 60 years old and hopefully I've got grandkids and I want to be telling them about these special moments and not wishing them away and really, really enjoying them. And that's something that mentally I try and practice being in the moment and enjoying it a lot. And I feel like a lot of fighters, they just, they're just so stressed about the end result that they can't even focus on enjoying themselves in the right now. And I know for me personally, when I'm enjoying myself, that's when I do my best. So I want to enjoy myself.
- [38:16]
Steven Bartlett
I want to talk to you about a few things you said there. You talked about visualization, was what you mentioned first, and writing things down. What kind of things do you write down and like, what's your whole process there? Because I'm sure there's people at home that would love to understand some of these practices so that they can implement them in their own life and then also speak to the value that it's brought to your life doing these things, kind of things.
- [38:34]
Tom Aspinall
You talk about visualization. People think about this like weird woo woo kind of thing, sitting there with crystals on you and weird music and meditate. It's not like that. It's as simple as getting a piece of paper, writing down this week I will do this and enjoy it. That as simple as that. That that's all I do. This year. I will win two fights, I will enjoy both of them and I'll perform to my best. And just reading it every so often.
- [39:01]
Steven Bartlett
And how often do you do that? Is it something you do at the start of the year or is it just like sporadically?
- [39:06]
Tom Aspinall
Really, I'm not. It's not something. I'm not the kind of guy who goes, right the beginning of the year, this is my visualization board or anything like that. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's just not what I do personally. I just write. When I feel like writing stuff, I'll write it. And most of the time I've got it in my bedside table or I've got it somewhere that I can see it and I'll pick it up, I'll read it a few times, the same sentence, I'll put it down, and I feel like it's in there. I wrote recently that things are working for me because I'm in a really weird situation with my career that I've never really been before, where there's a lot of politics involved in my kind of next move with Jon Jones. Yeah, I think I said to you, like, off camera is like, usually it's like, right, go for the fight, work towards the fight. Fight, fight's over, a little bit down time, another fight, work towards that, fight over, blah, blah. Whereas now I'm just kind of like a little bit in limbo when I don't know what's happening. And I'm just like, oh. Usually I'm used to, like, having my life mapped out as to when I need to dedicate more time to this and how much what training partners come in there and what I need to focus on. But now I'm just in a little bit limbo where I don't know really what's going on. And I wanted to really write down just to solidify that all this is happening, because I think when. When you are in those kind of situations, I know, me personally, I start to, like, conspire in my own, like, that everyone's conspiring against me, like, oh, this is not working out for me. And I start thinking negatively. But I think sometimes you just gotta write down like, this is gonna be all right. Like, this is whatever's happening right now, I don't know what it is, and I don't know. I can't fix it personally because it's nothing to do with me, but I know that it's going to end up all right and it's going to work out for me. So a couple of weeks ago, I remember just writing that down, putting it in the thing next to my bed. And sometimes when I'm waking up, I'm feeling a bit stressed. I'll just read it, put it away, and then that's it.
- [41:00]
Steven Bartlett
So any moment, maybe today, maybe now, maybe your phone upstairs could have a text message on it from Dana White saying, we're good to go.
- [41:06]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, pretty much. I am now, like, training. I mean, I'm always training anyway. Training's a massive part of my life. But I could get a text at any moment telling me I'm going to fight in six weeks, and that would be amazing, and it would be the.
- [41:18]
Steven Bartlett
Biggest fight of all time.
- [41:20]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, but I don't think that's going to happen because they are giving it that. It's definitely, in my opinion, there's a few massive fights to be made at the moment in mma, but I think as far as thirst from fans, this is the one that people want to see the most.
- [41:37]
Steven Bartlett
When I say that, does it make you nervous? Everything I just said, when I said it was the biggest fight of all.
- [41:42]
Tom Aspinall
Time, I love it.
- [41:44]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [41:44]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, that's what I want to do. Yeah, that's what I want to be involved with. Yeah, that's. That's why we do this thing we don't like. I have had a lot of fights that nobody cared about. In all honesty, like, I've had a lot of fights. I think people don't realize, like, they see me and other guys at the top of the division. You know, we're traveling the world, we're making money, we're winning titles, we're doing all this good stuff. Honestly, most of my fights, there was 100 people there, and I came away with 100 quid cash, and nobody gave a shit either way. Yeah, that's. And that's the realization of it. Like, MMA is such a tough sport to, like a lot of kids. Not a lot of kids, but a lot of parents. If I meet a parent on the street whose kids involved in MMA or whatever, a lot of the time will say, like, what advice have you got for the. And in all honesty, a lot of the time I'm like, have a backup plan because it's so difficult to make any money out of or any. Like I was saying, I'm going to an event tomorrow, actually. It's a local show. I was a amateur champion on the show. It's a great show. Do you know what I mean? There'll be. There'll be a couple of thousand people there tomorrow. And it's a. There's got a big fight card. Like, there's maybe 20 fights on. So there's 40 fighters fighting tomorrow night. I'm going to it. And I was chatting to. To my friend last night, actually said, oh, is there anyone decent on the car? So, yeah, yeah, there's a couple of guys on. And he said, oh, well, will anybody go to the ufc? And we just got chatting about that and, and how that looks and how it looks to get in the ufc. And. And I said to. Wanted to be honest with you, if one person out of the 40 can buy a house from MMA, I would be very surprised. And that's one in 40. Decent level. Like, it's just so hard to make a living out of mma. There is absolutely no career path to doing it, really, especially in this country. Like, it's getting tougher and tougher, and I'm trying to. I'm trying to raise as much awareness about MMA as possible. I want kids to be able to look at guys like me and other guys and be like, if he's making a career out of it, I can. But it is so hard in this country. That's why I'm doing as much as I can to try and get this thing as mainstream as possible.
- [44:08]
Steven Bartlett
I mean, even in the uk, if I think there's been, what, hundreds of thousands of kids that probably practiced MMA over the last couple of years, and how many of them really get to the point where they could buy a house from it? You can name them like you, Conor McGregor, Ian Garry, Paddy Pimlett, Leon Edwards. Leon Edwards.
- [44:27]
Tom Aspinall
I mean, there's definitely guys who have made a lot of money out of it and have a good living, but honestly, I've been around gyms all my life, and I would say 95% of people have never made more than five grand for a fight.
- [44:42]
Steven Bartlett
How much were you getting paid throughout your amateur career because you were an amateur fighter up until the point where you basically ran out of people you could fight? I think he had nine amateur fights, right?
- [44:51]
Tom Aspinall
Nine. Which at the time was quite a lot. I would always recommend get as much. As much experience as you can as an amateur before you move on to pro. But, yeah, so as an amateur, I was obviously getting ticket money, so I'd sell. So the way it worked when I was fighting as an amateur, at least, it was like, if you would sell a ticket for 30 quid, you would get a fiver of it. So the promoters would work off that, like, a little percentage thing going.
- [45:15]
Steven Bartlett
So of those nine amateur fights, how much do you think you all together?
- [45:18]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, I was maybe making between 50 and 100 quid a fight.
- [45:23]
Steven Bartlett
Okay, so that's nearly a grand.
- [45:25]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, nearly a grand on that.
- [45:28]
Steven Bartlett
And then you went. You had a professional run as well. Was it seven fights as a professional.
- [45:31]
Tom Aspinall
In MMA before I got to the. I have no idea. Before I got to the UFC, probably. Yeah, maybe seven.
- [45:37]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah, down to seven.
- [45:38]
Tom Aspinall
So I remember my first profile. I got 200 quid.
- [45:41]
Steven Bartlett
Okay, so you doubled.
- [45:42]
Tom Aspinall
Doubled it. Smashing it. I was absolutely smashing it then.
- [45:46]
Steven Bartlett
So. So that's. Yeah, another. So you probably made two grand or something there. And then the UFC pays much better.
- [45:52]
Tom Aspinall
Much better.
- [45:52]
Steven Bartlett
Much Better, which is when you can start to make a living from it.
- [45:55]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I mean, they start off pretty good. The thing, I'm really lucky in the fact that I've got a fan friendly style, so people want to see me fight, especially heavyweights. People want to see a lot of the people, like, who are not. They've not got a technically trained eye. They want to see two guys punching each other and one guy unconscious. That's the brutality of it, and that's the reality of it. And my style, generally speaking, brings that.
- [46:25]
Steven Bartlett
Well, I mean, generally speaking, don't you hold the world record for the average fastest time?
- [46:30]
Tom Aspinall
I do, yeah. Yeah.
- [46:30]
Steven Bartlett
That a fight ends.
- [46:31]
Tom Aspinall
Yes. Yeah.
- [46:32]
Steven Bartlett
Which is pretty crazy. So, I mean, that's why you're such a draw, right? Because you're knocking everyone out within two minutes on average.
- [46:38]
Tom Aspinall
Yep, yep. So, like you, I progress through contracts and money quite quickly because of my style, but not everybody does. So generally speaking, you get in the ufc, you get what's called show money, which is your money to show up.
- [46:52]
Steven Bartlett
Which is what? What can you tell me?
- [46:54]
Tom Aspinall
Usually it's ten grand.
- [46:55]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Tom Aspinall
Dollars.
- [46:56]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Tom Aspinall
And I mean, people's contracts are different, but I'm just speaking generally. People start off at 10 and 10 to get show money, win money. So generally speaking. And this, this varies amongst, you know, if someone's got a career in another big organization, sometimes they'll sign them for more than that. But I was coming off a regional show, so I think I either got 10 and 10 or 12 and 12, I can't remember. But generally speaking, it's like you get your show money, which is between 10 and 15k dollars, and then your win bonus is double your show money, usually. So 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 15.
- [47:37]
Steven Bartlett
For how long are you on that contract?
- [47:39]
Tom Aspinall
They usually do four fights.
- [47:40]
Steven Bartlett
Okay.
- [47:41]
Tom Aspinall
But the thing is, they can terminate that at any time. So if you're in like a fight that's boring, it's a bit of a stinker, even if you win, they can just be like, yeah, we're done. Done with that.
- [47:52]
Steven Bartlett
Interesting.
- [47:53]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [47:53]
Steven Bartlett
So if it's four fights, you're getting 10 and 10, you could earn. That's 80k.
- [47:59]
Tom Aspinall
If you win, you usually go up. So It'd be like 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 14 and 14, 16 and 16, something like that.
- [48:05]
Steven Bartlett
Okay. The low end is you could make 80k from those first.
- [48:08]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. But if you lose, you're just getting 10. That's the.
- [48:12]
Steven Bartlett
Oh, yeah, you can make 40k.
- [48:14]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. And generally speaking, like, if you go 10 and 10. You win, you go 12 and 12. You win, you go 14 and 14, but you lose that one, you go back to 12 and 12. Does that make sense?
- [48:26]
Steven Bartlett
Okay.
- [48:27]
Tom Aspinall
But if you have an exciting style and the UFC like you see, I'm very lucky because I'm from the UK and people from the UK get behind the fighters a lot of the time, and I'm very lucky that I've got that myself. So I did 10 and 10 and then I think 12 and 12, if I remember rightly. And then they re signed me then because they had two first round finishes, so they resigned me for a bigger contract then, which is great. And then they assign me for another four fights. And then, you know, you win a couple more in exciting fashion and you can, you can get bigger contracts. You don't have to stay for the four.
- [49:01]
Steven Bartlett
So after two fights, you got a new deal.
- [49:03]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [49:03]
Steven Bartlett
And that drastically changes the money.
- [49:05]
Tom Aspinall
Yes. Yeah.
- [49:06]
Steven Bartlett
Like from still in the tens.
- [49:08]
Tom Aspinall
Still in the tens, yeah, yeah.
- [49:10]
Steven Bartlett
Bigger tens. Fifties.
- [49:11]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [49:12]
Steven Bartlett
Because I thought it was 50. I thought that, I thought someone like Ian Gary, who came in from. What's the organization he came.
- [49:19]
Tom Aspinall
Cage Warriors.
- [49:19]
Steven Bartlett
Cage Warriors.
- [49:20]
Tom Aspinall
I also came in for Cage.
- [49:21]
Steven Bartlett
Oh, okay. So he must have been. I thought he was on 50.
- [49:23]
Tom Aspinall
I mean, he might have been. He might have been like a different time there. Yeah, maybe he was. I don't know. Like I say it varies from person to person, but from my experience, I came in, he's either 10 and 10 or 12 and 12. I can't remember exactly.
- [49:34]
Steven Bartlett
And when does the big, the big, like six figure show money begin?
- [49:39]
Tom Aspinall
So I got a good contract because I took the title fight on two weeks notice. So I was in a bit of a position there where like, I could kind of like save the card because there was a title fight on the card. Somebody pulled out, they asked me to step in. So, you know, I was in a position that the UFC was kind of, kind of like, needed me a little bit then. So. But to answer the question, everyone's different with that, but with the money aspect, it's like when you start becoming popular and winning fights, that when people want to see you, basically, that's. It's just as much about, do people want to watch you fight? That's, that's like a bit. It's not just about winning fights. Winning fights is extremely important, but you, you gotta make people want to see you.
- [50:27]
Steven Bartlett
So that was against Sergei Pavlovich.
- [50:30]
Tom Aspinall
That's right.
- [50:30]
Steven Bartlett
And that was in the. The end of 2020. 3.
- [50:33]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [50:34]
Steven Bartlett
November. And that was your first six figure payday because you took that massive fight on short notice.
- [50:40]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [50:41]
Steven Bartlett
It was your biggest payday.
- [50:42]
Tom Aspinall
It was my biggest payday at the time. I got a bigger one in my last fight.
- [50:45]
Steven Bartlett
Oh, but it was your biggest payday up until that point?
- [50:47]
Tom Aspinall
By far.
- [50:48]
Steven Bartlett
By far.
- [50:48]
Tom Aspinall
By far.
- [50:49]
Steven Bartlett
By how much?
- [50:50]
Tom Aspinall
Far More than double.
- [50:52]
Steven Bartlett
More than double. Okay. And that was a six figure payday.
- [50:55]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [50:56]
Steven Bartlett
Okay. The reason why that's so surprising and interesting is because you were fighting at that point for the interim heavyweight title.
- [51:03]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [51:05]
Steven Bartlett
So I'm thinking about those kids back in Salford.
- [51:07]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [51:08]
Steven Bartlett
And if they, if they want to get a life threatening six figure, because that's what it is, six figure payday, then the journey that you went on is from the age of, what, seven.
- [51:19]
Tom Aspinall
Years old, you started seven, eight, something like that. Yeah.
- [51:21]
Steven Bartlett
Till you were 30 years old.
- [51:24]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [51:24]
Steven Bartlett
So 23 years for you to get a six figure payday from a heavyweight UFC title. It's a long time. It's a lot of work.
- [51:34]
Tom Aspinall
Yep. It's a whole lot of work. Yeah.
- [51:36]
Steven Bartlett
I was thinking about your story arc and if you were to like, paint it on a graph, like draw on a graph. Am I right in thinking it's like slow, flat and then quite sudden.
- [51:46]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of that gone on. They say, don't they, Something like, it takes years to become an overnight success or whatever.
- [51:54]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [51:55]
Tom Aspinall
And that's exactly what I'm dealing with. Yeah. Really? Yeah. It's crazy. Like you say, I've been going since I was 8 old, and the stuff that I've gone through in that time is unbelievable. I'm a massive believer in, like, just outlasting people. Like just being consistent and outlasting people a lot of the time overtakes anything else. Like, there's so many times. And a lot of it is down to my dad as well. He's like, I wanted to quit. And he's just remind. Don't get me wrong, I have quit a couple of times with mma and it's been like, Tom, I think you really need to think about this because you've been spending your whole life doing it. Like, don't quit now. You know what I mean? Like, there's been a lot of that from my dad and I think a lot of other dads would have just been like, yeah, you've done enough now. You've tried your best. Just leave it at that. Whereas it's always been, you know, my Dad's always believed in me and my mum as well, not just my dad. And a lot of close people around me as well, to be honest. I'm very lucky in that regard that people have push me to continue, which is great.
- [53:02]
Steven Bartlett
When was the first time you quit?
- [53:03]
Tom Aspinall
I've quit quite a lot of times, mate, to be honest. A lot of different reasons. Injuries.
- [53:09]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [53:10]
Tom Aspinall
Tough. Very, very, very tough to deal with injuries as a professional athlete. Not getting regular fights is also tough. See, now I'm like. Was complaining to you a minute ago about, I've not got a fight, this, that, and the other, but I'm gonna get a fight. The thirst from the fans is there that the UFC want me to fight. I've got a belt. I got to defend. We've got to unify this. There's. There's millions of dollars at stake here. Like, I'm gonna fight soon. I don't know when it's gonna be, but at one point, nobody cared if I fought or not, and I had no money. And that. That. I think the toughest time for me was. So I. I had my first kid when I was 23. Wife was pregnant when she was 22. When we were 22, I had my first kid at 23. And then when I was 24, we found out that she was pregnant again, and. Which I'm very happy about, of course. I don't want to seem like it's a negative thing and that we're having twins, and we had the twins. Everything's great. And I had no money, and, I mean, I didn't have any money at all. And I'm, like, living on this dream of me becoming this global superstar with these millions of pounds in the bank and with these titles and travel. I'm living on that dream. But I'm in Atherton in Greater Manchester. It's raining outside. I can't afford to put fuel in my car, and I've got three kids upstairs crying. Do you know what I mean? That. That's. That's what I was on. And I really felt like at the time, I don't. I don't want to say, like, I'm some big masculine guy or anything, but I felt a little bit demasculated, if that's all right. I felt like I'm here with this wife and kids, and I ain't providing nothing. Like. And that was really tough for me mentally at that time, where I'm like, how am I gonna provide for all these people? Like, I gotta do something else because. And I Felt, I don't think that people around me were like, tom's living in a dream world. He needs to get a proper job and earn some money for his family and kids. I don't think people. Because there was a lot of people around me who actually believe, believed in the dream as well, which is amazing. But I felt the pressure. I felt like people felt like that a little bit, even if they weren't saying it. So that, I think, for me was the. The toughest time for me, I think, is when just after I've had my kids, I'm away training every day. I'm barely spending any time at home. When I am spending time at home, I'm completely exhausted from training. The kids have me up all the time, they're crying, my wife's not happy, I've got no money, I train all this time, go to fight, then it gets cancelled a week before. Do you know what I mean? That was really, really tough to deal with at the time.
- [55:59]
Steven Bartlett
How do you, from a mental health perspective, how were you during that season of life?
- [56:03]
Tom Aspinall
Not great. Very, very tough. I think, first of all, I mean, everybody's different. But having three kids at the age of 25 is quite tough. I don't think I was. Well, I wouldn't change it for the world. I absolutely love being a dad, love my kids to death. The most important thing in my life, I wouldn't change it for the world. But I think now, looking back of me, like seven years ago, having three children, I don't know how I did it. It was really, really tough. Like, I think that's really young and like, I was very underdeveloped mentally to have that kind of responsibility and raise children and a family and a house and have a wife and try and get my career off the ground. Like, it was really, really tough at the time. So I think I was just in survival mode, to be honest with you. Actually, it's funny you should say, because I've been having these conversations recently with a couple of friends. It's like my friend now is having twins. He just found out. He asked me, what's it like? And I said, to be honest with you. And I'm going to be really honest because I pride myself as a nice person. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. I can't even remember the first year. And I can't because it was so difficult. And it wasn't just the twins, it was also the money situation. Fat. My career is not going anywhere. The stress I was under just Trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me. But like I said, I absolutely wouldn't change it for the world. It's literally shaped me into the person that I am today and I'm really, really proud of where I am now. But at the time it was very tough for me mentally.
- [57:39]
Steven Bartlett
Was there a hardest moment that you reflect on? Because sometimes when we think back to our lives, we can remember like a vivid rock bottom where something happened. We went to put petrol in the car, or when we, we were alone and our mind started saying dark things to us. Was there a rock bottom in that period of life?
- [57:58]
Tom Aspinall
I don't. I was still, like, aware of how lucky I was to have like three beautiful children and, and still be chasing the dream that I was on. But I think I just hated owing anybody money. Like, I felt like I just hate going to people and asking them for money. Like, that was like my worst nightmare. And I had to lend, like borrow a lot of money off my. I had to borrow some money off friends just to put fuel in the car to get to the gym to be living in what I thought at the time was like a make believe. I didn't think it was a make believe dream, but I think I feel like the people on the outside thought, what is he doing? What is this guy doing? He needs to look after his family. I felt that a lot. And a lot of that might have just been in my own psyche, to be honest with you. A lot of it I don't think came from my close circle, but I remember, like having to borrow money from friends to like put fuel in my car, buy nappies for my kids and stuff like that just so I can, like keep living on this dream of having a fight in six weeks, getting 600 quid and being able to give them 20 quid back. Like, that was. It was tough.
- [59:05]
Steven Bartlett
Does that not put a lot of pressure on the relationship? Because, I mean, bloody hell, relationships are hard enough without twins, another child.
- [59:12]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [59:14]
Steven Bartlett
And everything else that makes life and relationships difficult. So it's quite remarkable that, you know.
- [59:20]
Tom Aspinall
Being in a relationship's not easy in any regard. Being in a relationship and sharing your life with somebody isn't easy. Yeah, it did. It did. But you know what? We got through it. I'm really strong and I'm really happy with the family unit that we've built. I try and be the best dad that I can be. Like, that's more important than anything else suit me. It's just spending time and making my kids as Good as I can. And I'm aware that as a dad and as a parent, you can't control, as such, what your kids. You can't mold a kid into what you want it to be. You can't say, like, because I got three kids and they're all completely different. They're all brought up exactly the same, but they're all completely different. And you can never say, this is what my kid's gonna be and this is who he's gonna be and how he's gonna be, but just to be able to hopefully bring some kind of positive outlook on their life and. And hopefully give them a positive experience on this earth is what I'm looking to do.
- [60:18]
Steven Bartlett
Your. Your partner, you're married to Justina?
- [60:20]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [60:20]
Steven Bartlett
Did she understand?
- [60:21]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, she understands more than anybody. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If it wasn't for her, my dad, my mum, a couple of friends around, I would have been. Yeah, I would have been a mess. Absolute mess. Yeah, she was very understanding because I know that most women, they would have been putting the pressure on big time. Yeah, she was. It's because when we met, I've been with her since I was 19. She was 19 also. We're the same age. That was my dream from the beginning. So she, like, got on board with that and she's kept me. She stopped me from quitting a lot of times as well. She stopped me from quitting so many times. Yeah, there's. This sport's tough and like I said, there's no. So in football, for example. I know a little bit about football. You start from a grassroots team as a kid, then you go to an academy, and then you can get signed at the age of like, 12, 13 and start playing for the under 13s and professional club. And there's a place where you can go. And obviously football's a tough game, they can cut you off like that as well, but at least there's a career path of what you're going to do and where you're going to go. Whereas MMA basically shooting in the dark for 95% of it. And I'm very lucky to have people like my wife, my family, my mum and dad and the people around me who believe in me as well.
- [61:32]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah, it's cool. I mean, we started talking about this because of that, that kind of graph of your career where it's kind of flat relative to what then happened and then quick all of a sudden. And even when you think about the financials, it's like very, very little. And then if you get all the right forces behind you in terms of like personality and timing. And then someone drops out here, you get the interim shot, you win, then things take off. And that it's also remarkable to me that it's happened in such a short period of time relative to how long you've been doing this. Because when I looked down and I saw that this was 2023.
- [62:05]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [62:05]
Steven Bartlett
That you got that shot, you're kind of a new face on the scene to some degree relative to some of these other guys.
- [62:11]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, definitely, Definitely. I think the new generation is definitely coming in now in like the old guard. The old champions are kind of, they're at the back end of the career and now it's time for new guys, which is. That's progression. That's. That's great.
- [62:25]
Steven Bartlett
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- [63:33]
Tom Aspinall
We'll remove the belt. I mean, it's not. I'll be honest, mate, it's not that exciting.
- [63:37]
Steven Bartlett
Interesting.
- [63:38]
Tom Aspinall
It probably stinks as well. You probably smell it from over there.
- [63:40]
Steven Bartlett
I'm okay.
- [63:40]
Tom Aspinall
Clean. It's clean. Actually, it's not too bad. This is. This is a knee pad.
- [63:45]
Steven Bartlett
Okay.
- [63:47]
Tom Aspinall
I.
- [63:49]
Steven Bartlett
What is the story behind the knee pad? Why did you bring that? So.
- [63:55]
Tom Aspinall
First of all, I've had a knee problem for a long time. I started the knee problem when we were talking about the things that we've just been talking about, the financial struggles And I knew that I was never kind of like, one, two fights away from getting to the ufc, so I wanted to train through the knee problems. Then I got to the ufc. I'm training, I fight, I win. Oh, my knees. Knees. All right, I'm doing, like. I'm doing pretty well here. Like, I can fight with one knee. Fight again, I win, then I get a new contract, and then I fight. They offer me another fight. I don't want to say no to the ufc. I'm on this roll. I've still got this bad knee. I'm training with one leg, and.
- [64:33]
Steven Bartlett
You're training with one leg?
- [64:34]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, training one leg for a long time. Yeah, pretty much. I never kicked with the leg. I never went on the knee ever or anything like that. Anyway, this kept going and going. I was fighting with one leg. Then the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career was my knee just give out in front of 25, 000 home fans in the Auto arena in London in what was a title eliminator fight. So if either of us would have won that fight, we would have got a title shot next. So it's a massive fight with title implications. And not only did I lose the fight because of the injury, losing the fight is one thing. Like, if I go in there, I have a good fight, I show off all my training, but I get knocked out. For example, like, even though I'm going to be sad that I've lost the fight, I am relatively satisfied that I went in there, I had a go, came up short. Like, I can live with that. Whereas with the knee, I went in there, got injured straight away, the knee was down, I couldn't walk, I surgery, and then I was unsure whether my career was going to be over or not. And that was a massive, massive turning point in. In my life. Not just in my career, but in my life. That really, really gave me a chance to think and slow down and figure out what's important and what isn't. And that all came because of one of the biggest, worst thing that's happened in my life. But one of the most important things as well, and one of the. I got the most growth from that knee injury than I've got from anything else in my life, I think.
- [66:16]
Steven Bartlett
What kind of growth emerged from that?
- [66:19]
Tom Aspinall
At the time, I was doing a lot of things wrong in my personal life and in my professional life. Like, I had a lot of people around me that shouldn't have been there. I was doing some training sessions and training with people that I shouldn't have really been training with. I wasn't living a good lifestyle in terms of diet and my recovery. I wasn't 100 focused, and I should have been, but because everything was going so well, and I'm a little bit, like, superstitious, I didn't want to change anything because I'm like, well, it's going well. I don't want to start changing it. And I knew that there was a lot of things wrong. I knew that there were people that I shouldn't have been surrounding myself with. I knew that there were training sessions that were just wasting my time, really. And there were toxic people around me that shouldn't have been there, and I need. They needed to go. But I didn't want to change everything because it was all going so well. And when. When you talk about, like, a rock bottom moment, when you sat on the floor of the UFC Octagon in the Altar arena with your leg up in the air, and there's 25, 000 people who are there for you, start leaving the building, it's a bad feeling. It's a really bad feeling. So that really made me, like, reassess some of the decisions that I was making at the time.
- [67:41]
Steven Bartlett
And the Tom Aspinall before and after.
- [67:43]
Tom Aspinall
That moment, completely different people. I feel like I completely rebuilt myself, not only physically, because I think you can look. You look at me physically in fights before and see a physical change just in terms of my physique and the way I'm moving around. Obviously, I had one leg before, and I've got two legs now, which is way better. But mentally, the growth has been enormous. Is that I completely cut out anything negative that was in my life, anything that wasn't anything or anyone that wasn't serving me to become, like, run parallel with my journey to becoming the best heavyweight in the world. I completely cut off because. Because I was so superstitious, I think.
- [68:24]
Steven Bartlett
But why. Why did you. Why was it so important for you to remove those people at that particular moment?
- [68:33]
Tom Aspinall
As an athlete, I needed to. Not only as an athlete, as. As a. As a man, I needed to really slow down because I was on this, like, fast track. It's like, I got in the UFC and it was just like, fight, fight, fight. And every time, it's like, more and more popular, more interviews, more media, more fame, more money, more this, that. And I didn't really have time to, like, assess really what was around me. I didn't have time to, like, start cutting people off and start changing this and tweaking this and doing. I just didn't see it because I was on this. Like, I was just going and going and going. And when I had that, and next minute I'm sat on the couch for six months with this big cut on my leg, I can't walk. I'm doing physio and doing all the rest of it. And yeah, I just feel like as an athlete and a man, I really had that time to slow down and, and really assess my life and be like, this isn't working, it needs to change. That was actually the closest point where I was pretty close to throwing in the towel then, to be honest, on my career, because at that point I'd not made like mega money or anything, but I've made enough money to, like, be comfortable and, you know, I bought a house at that time, I'd made some decent money, but nothing like life changing, but I've made enough money to then, I don't know, be living my life to an alright, you know, standard for however long. And I was like, well, I'm financially comfortable now. I've had some fights in the ufc. I've had some success. I was, I think I was just outside the top five at that time or something. Maybe top 10. No, I've gone way further than a lot of people have done. Maybe I'll just like, leave it there.
- [70:14]
Steven Bartlett
Was there an element of you that wondered if the public would ever want to see you again?
- [70:19]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, definitely. Because I didn't have an actual fight, I felt like people thought I faked the injury or something. So I think, like, a lot of people thought, yeah, he didn't, he didn't really want to be in there with that opponent. I felt, because especially my opponent at the time, Curtis Blaze, he was like running through everybody and I felt like a lot of people were like, tom, just didn't want to fight. So I felt like, very insecure about myself at the time. And I really, like, when I came back, I really had like a chip on my shoulder and I still got it. That, like, I wanna, I wanna prove to everybody that, like, I am the best everywhere in the world.
- [70:56]
Steven Bartlett
You got six months on the sofa. Did you read things people are saying?
- [70:59]
Tom Aspinall
I tried not to, but I always do. I try not to, but. Yeah, but I think, I think it's quite healthy in a way though, as well. I think it, that fueled me a lot as well is that people started quitting on me and stuff. And a lot of people even, like, people were like, yeah, you know, you got a lot of ways to make money now. Like, you've already done loads of media. You know, you good. You good on the mic and stuff. You can maybe be a pundit and stuff like that. For a time, I was like, yeah, maybe I can. Maybe I can just, like, go be a pundit. And, you know, I've been in there, I've main evented a couple of times and stuff. I've been fought almost the elite level. Yeah, maybe I. Maybe I can just do that. But then I started reading these negative comments and I was like, actually, I want to fight. Like, what. What is this? Like, where am I going? I'm letting these regular people, like, speak, like, talk to me and. And put regular thoughts in my mind. And I'm not a regular person, so I'm. I'm an elite special athlete, and I always have that belief in myself that I'm not regular. I don't want to be regular, and I can't let regular people tell me how to. How to function. And I was almost at the point where I was. I was letting regular people tell me how to function. And the. The kind of, like, online haters spurred me to be like, nah, I've got. I've got to come back and win this title. There's no chance this is going to be the end of me.
- [72:27]
Steven Bartlett
Did it knock your confidence at all? Even though. Even though the nature of the loss, and it's your first and only loss in the UFC and you went on to beat this guy in a rematch, did it knock your confidence at all, even though it was via injury?
- [72:41]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. No, no, because I was really particular that. So there was two things that I really wanted to do after the fight. So I lost to a guy called Curtis Blades. That's when I injured my knee in 15 seconds. In 15 seconds? Yeah, right at the beginning of the fight. So I wanted to fight curses again. That was really important to me, is that I fight him again, because I can't function as a human being knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody. If I would have lost, at least I can, like, look myself in the mirror and be like, I tried my best. That's all I can do, but I seriously had unfinished business. And the other thing was that the injury happened at the Alta arena, which, from. Anyone from the UK knows that that is like, a prestigious. Like, if you're. If you're a UFC fighter and you're English, you want to fight at the O2, especially headline the O2. That's unbelievable experience. And I couldn't then never fight at the Auto arena again. I had to fight at the Auto. Like, they were the two things I wanted to fight Blades again, and I wanted to fight at the old two just so I can, like, mentally just tick them two things off and then move forward. And I did both of them, and I won both fights. So happy with that.
- [74:00]
Steven Bartlett
Jon Jones.
- [74:01]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [74:03]
Steven Bartlett
How'd you feel about him?
- [74:04]
Tom Aspinall
I'm sick of talking about him.
- [74:05]
Steven Bartlett
I bet you are. Yeah. Because that's what people want to talk about.
- [74:08]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people now, they think, like, oh, all Tom does is talk about John, and it's not the case. I don't want to talk about John, but that's all people ask me about. Do you know what I mean, Everybody, like I said before, it's what. It's probably one of the most anticipated fights in UFC history, me and Jon Jones. So obviously, that's the subject that people want to talk about. That's what people are interested in. So. John is an absolute legend of the sport. To answer the. The way I feel about him personally is quite relevant. The. The stuff that he's done in the ufc, he will be absolutely immortal forever. He will always be known as one of the best ever. And I really, as a mixed martial arts fan, really, really respect what he's done in the sport.
- [74:56]
Steven Bartlett
Are you fearful of fighting him?
- [74:58]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I'd be an idiot otherwise. Like, he's the best, one of the best to ever put a pair of UFC gloves on. And I think, like I say, regardless of what he's done outside the Octagon, and for anyone watching who doesn't know, I am referring to these legal issues that he's got. And that's not. That's nothing to do with me. I have no idea about any of that. I don't know him personally. I think inside the octagon, he is 100% one of the best people to ever do it.
- [75:34]
Steven Bartlett
What do you admire about Jon Jones in terms of his fighting style?
- [75:38]
Tom Aspinall
He's extremely smart. Extremely smart. The way he goals about his business in the Octagon, but also his business outside the Octagon and the matchups that he's chose for himself. Very smart. Very, very smart. The way that he's chose guys who he matches up stylistically really well with or who are well past the prime. I think it's genius. I think it's absolute genius.
- [76:10]
Steven Bartlett
Are you saying that he's avoided people that might have beaten Him.
- [76:13]
Tom Aspinall
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he's chose very well. He's chose very, very wisely. The right opponents at the right time, which is super smart. So to answer your question, yeah, I probably am saying that.
- [76:31]
Steven Bartlett
So what about his. You admire that, his sort of fighting iq?
- [76:35]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. He's one of the smartest fighters to have fight. Yeah.
- [76:39]
Steven Bartlett
Explain that to me. Like, I'm a Muggle, so I don't know.
- [76:41]
Tom Aspinall
Okay. He will. He has a certain way of making fighters fight his style, if that makes sense. So he will constantly keep his opponent guessing with kind of, like, different things that they like. He will always have a style that suits him really well, and he will force his opponent to fight that way, if that makes sense.
- [77:12]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah, it does.
- [77:12]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. I guess it's kind of difficult if you're uneducated on it. But he has his style, and he will never come out of that and risk fighting in somebody else's style, ever. He will constantly force elite guys to fight his style, which is really, really difficult to do in it in a technical perspective.
- [77:31]
Steven Bartlett
Kind of saw that against Stipe, I thought.
- [77:33]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, but Stipe's also 42 years old with a million miles on the clock. You have to remember that. But you are right. You're definitely right. But from seeing it up close, because I was sat. I was almost in touching distance at the Octagon. Stipe was more than offbeat in that fight in terms of how far he is away from his prime.
- [77:55]
Steven Bartlett
What is it that Jon Jones is doing there? Because you see these great athletes who have their own really clearly defined style. Then you see them get in the ring with Jon Jones and suddenly their style seems to have vanished, or they're scared, or he's doing something to keep them on the back foot and outside of their zone of comfort. So they can never really get into the rhythm. So they play his game. What is it he's doing there?
- [78:21]
Tom Aspinall
Well, first of all, John Jones is a light heavyweight.
- [78:24]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Tom Aspinall
So he's now moved up to heavy. He's had two fights, heavyweight, but traditionally there's a light heavyweight. For a light heavyweight, he's extremely long in terms of wingspan and. And leg length. And when you're that much taller. And this is not. I'm not saying anything about it, but most of the guys he's for are from middleweight coming up, so he's generally the taller guy and keeps people at the end of his reach. So. Well, like, his distant distance management is one of the best ever. He does that really well, and then when he's moved up to heavyweight, he's fought a guy in Surgan who, no disrespect to him, doesn't have a ground game. Yeah, Jon Jones, one of the best wrestlers ever in mma and a 42 year old Stipe. So he's chose really, really well what he does, but he just uses his distance management and his timing is incredible. Like, the way he uses the attributes that he's got is honestly like from, from somebody who studied martial arts. From, like I said, eight years old, it's like, it's, it's almost like beautiful for me to watch the way he expresses different techniques under that much pressure against elite competition. It's amazing to watch.
- [79:39]
Steven Bartlett
He's got an incredible set of skills in that regard. He does, he can kick, he can punch, he can grapple, he can wrestle.
- [79:46]
Tom Aspinall
I think in today's mixed martial arts everybody has to do all that. Arguably everybody has to be almost elite in everything. The thing that he does really well is he does everything on his terms inside the Octagon. Like everybody can do all the stuff that you just listed, punch, kick, elbow, knee, wrestle, grapple, choke, arm bar, whatever. But he does it all on his terms. And that is something that is the elite of the elite. And like I say all of us, all of us, when I say us, I'm talking about the professional MMA fighter who's had one fight to Jon Jones, all of us, everything in between that can do everything really well. You have to be able to, to be able to swim. But he just does it on his terms when his opponent is not expecting it. And that is unbelievable.
- [80:36]
Steven Bartlett
So you must be thinking about how you stuck that.
- [80:40]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's difficult because I don't want to over obsess about it because there's no contract with my name and his name signed.
- [80:47]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [80:48]
Tom Aspinall
But in the back of my mind when I'm training, of course I'm thinking about that kind of stuff, but I think what I bring to the table is I'm way bigger than anyone he's ever fought. I'm close to my prime. I don't think I've reached it quite yet. I think I've still got maybe a year or so before I get there. And I think I'm just really. I don't want to say I'm athletically gifted because I'm def. I've definitely put a lot of work into it, but I think when it comes to athleticism for a big guy, I think I'm like, I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, but I'm just being real. I think that I am, like, head and shoulders above any other heavyweight. And my. Not only that, my decision making, I think that's the difference is, like, a lot of people, like any heavyweight, put a pair of gloves on them, they can knock anybody out. That goes without saying. We're massive guys. But my decision making is elite. Like, elite, Elite. The best. Some of the best in mma. And I hate to sit here with a lot of cameras around me and look you in the face and tell you that, but it's the honest truth. I believe that I'm also almost in my prime. I'm hungry, and I bring all these physical and technical attributes to the table, which somebody like, for example, stipe Miocic, who's 11, 12 years older than me and a million miles on the clock doesn't bring.
- [82:03]
Steven Bartlett
So when people see your fighting style and they hear that you've got the world record for the lowest average time to end fights, just over two minutes on average, your fights last, before you knock the guy out, they're going to be thinking, right, so Tom's strategy here is he's going to storm Jon Jones and throw that hand and knock him out. And Jon Jones is going to be thinking the same. Jon Jones is going to be like, right, he's going to try and finish me quick. That's his game. There's literally a world record that says that's his game.
- [82:29]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I love that. Like, if people think that's all I bring to the table, like, I like being a bit of a mystery. I absolutely love that. Like, there's so much of my game that I've not had the opportunity to show yet. And I. I absolutely love it, you know, when people, like, critique the fact that I've not been into the later rounds or maybe I've not got the condition that other guys have got or. Look, that's not my problem. That's the problem of my opponents. They can't deal with what I'm throwing. I never, ever go out there to finish the fight quick. It just happens. And that isn't actually an issue for me. That's the issue for the guy standing across the octagon from me. Because I have never been in a fight where I'm trying to finish, really. I'm just trying to go out there, do my thing, see what comes and see what's what, like. And the fact that people are doubting what I can do. And because, just because they don't know because they've not seen it with their own eyes. They think, I can't do it. Which to me is a humongous advantage. Humongous advantage. Like John Jones, for example, is known for his film study. Like, he loves watching his opponent and seeing how they move, seeing the patterns that they bring up. And, like, good luck with doing that with me, mate, because the footage isn't out there. And I think that's also part of the reason why he's not quick to sign any contracts or to agree on anything. Yeah, the money's a factor, of course. Yeah. He's right at the end of his career and he might want to retire. I don't know. I don't know how John's mind works, but definitely somewhere, it's an insecurity of his that there isn't any footage out there of me that you can watch for longer than three or four minutes. And that is just a humongous advantage for me. Massive.
- [84:12]
Steven Bartlett
Because you finished the fight so quick.
- [84:14]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so much of my game that I've not even been close to showing and I'm very excited to surprise some of these guys when I. When I do show it.
- [84:26]
Steven Bartlett
I can't imagine how many times you must have played over in your head you were talking about drilling earlier that fight. Yeah, talk to me about that.
- [84:36]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I've definitely replayed, like, played it a lot, but I do that with all opponents, even guys in the division right now who have not got any prospects of fighting at the moment. I think about that a lot. Like, I think about how I match up physically and mentally with them.
- [84:52]
Steven Bartlett
So if you're playing that over in your head, run me through the tape. You're playing.
- [84:56]
Tom Aspinall
Well, that's top secret.
- [84:57]
Steven Bartlett
Is that really the case, that there's a particular strategy playing in your head over and over again?
- [85:04]
Tom Aspinall
Absolutely. But there's one thing that I know for sure. This, this is nailed on, guaranteed. And this goes for any human being in the world. And this has been proved time and time again, even though sometimes I don't believe that it can happen. But now I know if I punch a human being in the face as hard as I can and it lands, they will be unconscious. I know it because it's been proved at the elite level multiple times. So I need one and that's it.
- [85:37]
Steven Bartlett
Well, I wanted to test that. So we've got Jack here, who.
- [85:43]
Tom Aspinall
I won't punch you, Jack, not today.
- [85:48]
Steven Bartlett
Have you had your punch power tested?
- [85:50]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I have had it Tested. There are guys that have more punch power than me on the machine and probably in real life as well, whatever. But I think. See, I don't want to tell you because I don't want people to watch it and know my secrets, but I punch people when they're not expecting it and they're the one. They're the ones that hurt. Okay. I disguise it in a certain way. You know, I do bits on my YouTube channel and stuff about me explaining techniques and, and doing different things. And now I've got something called a school platform, which I know you had Alex Hormozy on the channel as well, who, who is as shares in school. And I show different techniques and stuff like that, but I'll never show my game, if that makes sense. I'll show a generalization of what to do and strategy and what's focused on or not. But my personal game and what I do for my style, I'll never show it because that's something for only me and my coaches to know.
- [86:45]
Steven Bartlett
And when you think about your routine for those six weeks, what advice can you give to, like, an average person about the health routine that you go through to get into elite shape? What are the tips and tricks you've learned that you could impart on me as someone that's not necessarily a fighter, but.
- [86:59]
Tom Aspinall
Well, something that I'm learning as I'm getting a little bit older. And I'm not saying I'm old by any chance, by any stretch of the imagination, but as I'm getting older and I'm getting more. I've been training a long time, even though I'm not up there in age, but I can definitely feel more on my body than I used to, especially being a bigger guy. Generally we carry more injuries, but I think that if you're training, for example, four hours a day, what I found is doing at least half of that time recovering is what I'm aiming to do. So, however the recovery looks to you, whether that's stretching, breathing exercises, sauna, swimming, steam room, Jacuzzi, you know, there's. There's a whole. You Google recovery from exercise, there'll be a million things that you can do. But I like to try and do 50 of my training. The easiest way I can say is if I'm training for four hours, I try and do two hours worth of recovery. And I think that has helped me a lot. Not to mention massively, massively underrated. And as a heavyweight, I can kind of eat what I want, really, if I want to. Well, I Don't have the smaller weights. They all have to be under a certain weight. So weight cutting is like a big thing in mma. People, they do extreme diets and then cut a lot of water out the last week and try and get, you know, squeeze as much as they can to get under this weight division. They weigh in, then they put the weight back on. I just have to be over 93 kilos and I do that no problem.
- [88:27]
Steven Bartlett
But, but doesn't your nutrition have an impact on your performance?
- [88:29]
Tom Aspinall
Of course, of course. That's. That's kind of what I'm getting to is like, it is so important what you put in your body. Like, I didn't realize that until I was maybe 28 years old, 27, 28 years old. And it needs to be monitored. Like, again, going back to writing stuff down, like, write down what you eat in a day and eliminate one thing for the next day and write how you feel. Like, that's what I did a lot. He's like, and now I'm at the point where, like, I will eat similar things and similar times every day because I know how my body functions on that and I know that if I'm doing an intense session there, I need a little bit more cars before and after. And what kind of carbs is something that I've worked out to how I feel before and after. And again, it's just a lot of every person's body is different. So I would never like to sit here and I'm not a nutrition expert and, and start going on about what people need to eat because that's not my expertise. But I know from a personal point of view that writing things down and experimenting, taking this out and adding this in and then writing notes on how you feel and doing that every day as been massive for me.
- [89:40]
Steven Bartlett
What about sleep? You mentioned sleep earlier.
- [89:41]
Tom Aspinall
I do like to sleep a lot. I'm just a big napper. Like, if I, if I train in the morning, I'm going to sleep straight after. And that takes a lot of discipline, you know, like, it takes a lot of discipline for me to be like, I'm coming home from training, I'm gonna shower, eat and sleep, and nothing's coming in the way of that. Like, it takes. Especially like with kids, like, if I'm coming home and if I've done the two hour session in the morning, I'm coming home. The kids are excited to see me. This guy wants to play on the Xbox, the other one wants to play outside. This one wants a snack, and that one Wants to play outside. And then it's just madness. And then one of them spilled a drink. You got to clean this up. And then one wants this on the tv. It's just a constant thing for me to then walk in and be like, I'm going to bed. I'll be up in an hour and a half. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's discipline as well. That's it. But all these little increments, they just pay off massively.
- [90:36]
Steven Bartlett
Because I talked about ketosis on this podcast and Ketones, a brand called Ketone IQ sent me their little product here, and it was on my desk when I got to the office. I picked it up, it sat on my desk for a couple of weeks. Then one day I tried it. And honestly, I have not looked back ever since. I now have this everywhere I go when I travel all around the world. It's in my hotel room. My team will put it there. Before I did the podcast recording today that I've just finished, I had a shot of Ketone iq. And as is always the case when I fall in love with a product, I called the CEO and asked if I could invest a couple of million quid into their company. So I'm now an investor in the company as well as them. Being a brand sponsor. I find it so easy to drop into deep, focused work when I've had one of these. I would love you to try one and see the impact it has on you, your focus, your productivity, and your endurance. So if you want to try it today, visit ketone.com stephen for 30% off your subscription. Plus you'll receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com Stephen I'm excited for you. I am. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? Every single guest on the diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary. And it's a question designed to challenge, to connect, and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand. On one side, you've got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it. And on the other side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it. 51 questions split across three different levels. The warm up level, the open up level, and the deep level. So you decide how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms, at work, in bedrooms, alone, at night, and on first dates. And Everywhere in between. I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours@thediary.com you mentioned a term earlier on that we didn't go into which was hypnotherapy.
- [92:33]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [92:35]
Steven Bartlett
For someone that doesn't know what hypnotherapy is, can you give me like a broad idea of what it is and how the role that it's played in your life and any evidence you might have seen that it actually works?
- [92:45]
Tom Aspinall
Yep. So I'm going like quite hard on the hypnotherapy now. I actually spoke to my hypnotherapist yesterday. I'm going to start doing twice a week.
- [92:52]
Steven Bartlett
Why?
- [92:57]
Tom Aspinall
A few different reasons really, both personal and professional. I had a situation recently with my kid where my kid was in hospital and it really kicked off my anxiety massively. And since then I'm struggling to relax a little bit more than, than I would usually struggling to switch off. So I think that for me personally, again I don't want to sit here and preach about hypnotherapy because it's not my expertise at all. But for me personally, it brings my anxiety down a lot. So it helps with that. It also helps with sleep. It also helps with just being just in a more tranquil place in general. And when you add that those qualities into what can be a very anxiety filled, anxiety filled sport, I think that's just a massive advantage. Not to mention the other stuff that we talked about like life and just general stressiness as well.
- [93:55]
Steven Bartlett
For someone that doesn't know anything about the hypnotherapy that you do, they might think that it's like, you know, back in the day it was swinging the thing in front of your face and then you fall asleep and they tell you you're a dog and you bark and stuff. Used to be on TV when I was younger, but it's not that, is it? What is it?
- [94:10]
Tom Aspinall
People are gonna start thinking it's like some like you say some woo woo thing where you start like going unconscious and doing all. It's nothing like that. It's like essentially you're just in a room the way that I do. At least I'm in a room with a guy talking to me. I'm completely relaxed, lay down or sat up, doesn't matter, usually with my eyes closed. And usually it'll take you through a story of like you go into a place, you're walking down a street or what, you'll set the scene kind of thing. And I used to think I need to listen and focus in on every word he's saying. Like, I need to put myself exactly where, you know, follow the story, quote, unquote, story exactly as he's telling me to follow it. And I actually spoke to him about it and I was like, I'm struggling to, like, listen for that long because it goes on like, 45 minutes. Struggling to, like, follow the path that you're leading me down for that long. And he's like, listen, don't worry. You can be thinking about whatever you want. You don't have to follow what I'm telling you. He said, because your subconscious is listening all the time. It say it's the same when a couple of times I was, like, fighting to stay awake because I was tired. And most of the time I did after training as well. So I'm tired, like, fighting to stay awake. And I said, look, I'm fighting to stay awake. I'm, like, getting really tired. He's like, look, if you fall asleep, doesn't matter. Your subconscious is still listening, so it doesn't matter what's going on. And a lot of the time I'm just there. I'm just, like, chilling out. I'm listening to what he's saying, but I'm also drifting off of my own thoughts. And I don't know how. Again, I'm not like a psychologist, hypnotherapist or anything like that, but I only know from my own personal perspective that when it comes to, like, anxiety and positive thinking and just generally being in a better place mentally, I just believe in it a lot. I think it really helps me.
- [95:54]
Steven Bartlett
Anxiety. What journey have you been on with your anxiety?
- [95:59]
Tom Aspinall
It's something that I've always kind of dealt with, but I think it's not uncommon to deal with it. And I think that a lot of people think it's. Think it is uncommon. Like, I. I'm a little bit ocd, and I think that OCD and anxiety goes hand in hand. Like, I think that. And it used to be a lot worse, to be honest. I used to. I struggled with it when I was a child and still struggle with it now. But I used to be a lot worse when I was younger.
- [96:25]
Steven Bartlett
And how did that manifest?
- [96:26]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, at one point. At one point it was like I couldn't sit in a room unless the room was the way I wanted it to look like, unless the curtains would close the right way. The drawers were shot perfectly. Everything was facing forward. The TV was on a certain angle. Like, I couldn't rest because of like I would think like something bad is going to happen unless all that's right. But after, after a while I kind of grew out of that a little bit and got a hold on it. But it still creeps back, mate. Sometimes I try and keep it at bay.
- [97:00]
Steven Bartlett
Does it come out at certain moments when certain things happen?
- [97:02]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, yeah it does. It gets worse. Again, like I said, I've been through something quite traumatic recently where my son was in hospital and that's a whole nother story of its own. But at one point we were really concerned about like my son's health really and that was a big traumatic thing for me and I noticed a lot that my OCD starts to come back and I want to do certain, certain stuff again because my anxiety is creeping up and, and just gotta really try.
- [97:28]
Steven Bartlett
And keep it at bay and anxiety separate to that. So your anxiety is always been something in the background in your life but it flares up in certain situations.
- [97:40]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. So I mean I'm in an anxiety fueled sport so I think naturally there's a lot going on because of that but it's just something I think everybody deals with it. I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm uncommon to anybody else. I think especially these days it's a lot more accepted to be like talking about it and stuff.
- [98:01]
Steven Bartlett
It's super common.
- [98:02]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, it's very, very common. Very, very common. I think social media doesn't help with that, especially for like, I mean for myself it's like I have a thing now. I've only done for the last couple of fights where social media has gone from my life when I got a fight date because there is no chance that I'm thinking about my opponent all day. And I'm also scrolling and reading all comments all day. It's just not. I just won't deal with it. And for the next fight I'm actually gonna have like a training camp fold.
- [98:32]
Steven Bartlett
Okay.
- [98:32]
Tom Aspinall
Where only people who are actually involved in my training camp or personal life. And when I say personal life I'm talking about my wife and mum and dad and probably that's it. Are going to be involved. Like I don't want to have any outside noise coming in at all.
- [98:48]
Steven Bartlett
Your son's doing okay now.
- [98:49]
Tom Aspinall
Son's doing okay now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thankfully everything's good.
- [98:54]
Steven Bartlett
Puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
- [98:57]
Tom Aspinall
Honestly? Unbelievably, yeah. I mean it wasn't really, really bad without going into too, too many details, but spent a Stay in hospital with something that we wasn't sure what it was at first and, yeah, massively, absolutely. Like nothing else really matters. If as long, like, as long as you've got your health and, you know, your family's health, like, you're in a pretty good spot, I think, because it's just a horrible place to be in.
- [99:27]
Steven Bartlett
Is this the son that received an autism diagnosis?
- [99:29]
Tom Aspinall
No, this is my. So one of my twins has autism? Yeah, yeah, this is the non autistic kid.
- [99:36]
Steven Bartlett
Tell me about your son that was received the autism diagnosis and the sort of journey you've been on there. I. I think this is really, really important because I've done this podcast a while and I get so many DMs from parents who have an autistic child asking me to talk more about this subject because they just don't feel like the information's out there and there's a number of feelings that they feel. I think one of them that I see in my DMs expressed is a bit of guilt to some degree, which is an interesting one, but also just a lack of people talking about the experience. So take me on the journey from when that child was born and the path to the diagnosis.
- [100:13]
Tom Aspinall
I mean, I'll give as much detail as possible because like you say, I think parents need details and there isn't a lot out about it. And now for me, recently, like I said, I've been through something traumatic with another one of my kids and the NHS has been absolutely nothing short of unbelievable. Like, we were in an emergency situation where we needed an emergency treatment and my kid got 24 hours a day looking after while there was an emergency going on. And it was unbelievable. We came away, me and my wife being like, we are so lucky to live in this country because my wife isn't from this country as well. So we both came away being like, we are so lucky to live here in a place where you can get free everything in an emergency level straight away. So I'm not trying to throw the NHS under the bus at all, because when there's an emergency, it's amazing. That being said, as far as the autistic community, we are being failed. And I don't know if that's from the nhs, from the government, I don't know who that's from, but I was in a spot, so fight. My twins are nearly six, they're coming up to six. So I was in a spot. Like, my twins were born, and they were born just before the lockdown, then covered, hit Everything like the world went to, as we know, and then my kids got in in a place where, you know, we had a child before and we're aware that kids hit milestones. We've got twins, so they're hitting the milestones at different stages. Then we start to notice, like, maybe, maybe two years. The kids are maybe two years old. We start to notice, like, one kid is a fair bit beyond the other one in. In terms of speech, in terms of how responsive he is, in terms of eye contact, in. In terms of look, we could see something's different. But me personally as a dad, I was kind of like, in denial as to, right, this is lockdown's fault. This kid is 2 years old. He's been in the house, he's been around me, my wife and his two brothers, sometimes grandparents, when the government would let us, and that's it for like two years. He's not in social situations. He's not around other kids. And that kind of went on for a bit. I was kind of like, heavily in denial about it, even though now looking back, I could clearly see that things weren't moving normally, especially because he's got this twin and the twins, like, you know, he's moving at a different rate. So it was right there in front of my face. But I'm just like, in this denial. He'll catch up. It's just a lockdown's fault. The government's keeping us all locked inside. Blah, blah. Paddy McGinnis, funny enough, who's a guy from my area, like from a similar area, don't know Paddy at all, never met him, but he had this program and it was about autism. And I don't know why. One day me and my wife, we sat down and watched this program and he, I believe, has three autistic children. All of his. All of his three children are diagnosed with autism. So anyway, I'm watching this documentary and he's. He's talking about all the different symptoms because it's a massive spectrum autism. There's. There's a million different things. And I'm watching. He's talking about this one kid. He does this. This is. This is the way that autism presents himself, this particular kid. And in my mind, I'm thinking, my son does do that a little bit. And then he's talking about a different kid who also is diagnosed with autism, the way that the. The child does this. And I'm thinking, anyway, he's going through talking about his different children, and I'm thinking, wow, like, my. My child ticks a lot of these boxes and then I Google it. I know nothing about autism at the time and obviously that is the worst thing you can ever do. And I'm going through these symptoms being like, wow, this is when I don't know what to do. Like, we need to try and, try and get help. So anyway, make a doctor's appointment at the GP and that is a complete message. It's difficult to get an appointment. We go in, they put us on a waiting list. Anyway, a year or so goes by, the child isn't developing at the speed of his twin. We can see this clearly. We are worried about what's going on and we don't know what to do. Like we are literally, we have no idea about what's going on, how to progress this child, what his future is going to look like. We know nothing about autism. Me and my wife at the time, absolutely zero about it. We don't know. It's just so such an. We talk about anxiety, like you don't know what your child's future is going to look like and how to help him or her on how to progress as a human being. That is some of the worst anxiety that you can ever have. You've brought this kid into, to this earth and you can't even point them in the right direction of where to go on, how to navigate the way through life. And it's, it's a really, really difficult thing. Anyway, I go on A Question of Sport, the show. Patty McGuinness is the host. Me and Pat, me and Paddy are chatting a little bit and after the show, whatever, and I said, look Paddy, if you don't mind me asking, I watch your show about autism. I said, I'm trying to get my kid diagnosed. I've been on the waiting list a year, like, what should we do? So anyway, he gives me the number to the, to the specialist, I call the specialist, we go in for a meeting. Long story short, paid for the diagnosis, got this kid diagnosed and now my child is in a mainstream school. He has a one to one, one to one teacher. He's getting the help he needs, he's doing really well, he's progressing. How the future is going to look, we don't know. We're dealing with it day to day. And now I am completely aware that as a person in a good financial situation, I have the ability to do that, is to go pay the money and get that. And now there is so many people, so, so many people who, and I mean, I get hundreds of messages about it hundreds of people stopping me on the street about it because I've spoke a little bit about autism, who they are going to the gp, they're going for assessments and they cannot get a diagnosis. They're on a 3, 4, 5 year waiting list and these kids are getting sent to mainstream schools and the kids are just regressing and regressing and regressing because they don't have any help and the parents of the kids have zero direction and they don't know what to do. And we're in a really tough spot with it in this country where, like I said, we've got this amazing nhs. I don't know if it's the NHS that's holding this or the government, but. And I don't know what's causing autism. There's a million things out there about vaccinations, about diet, about things that they're watching on tv, about the toys that they play with. You know, there's a, a load of different theories on it. Me personally, I don't know what it is, obviously I'm not a specialist with that, but I know that autism is getting bigger and bigger each year. There's more and more people trying to get diagnosed, there's more and more people getting diagnosed and the help just isn't there. The help, especially in schools, like, I'm so lucky that my son has an amazing one to one teacher. Every day he goes and he enjoys school and he progresses a little bit. And we know what, we're in a position where we've had help as parents that we know what kind of direction and where to navigate him in sometimes. Now there's so many parents out there who've been on, like I say, three, four, five, six, seven year waiting list. Their kids are just getting worse and worse and worse. And as a penalty to that, the parents life are then getting worse and worse and worse and they have absolutely no direction of where to go and what to do. And it's a serious, serious crisis that we've got in this country at the moment.
- [108:45]
Steven Bartlett
There are, in this country there are 700,000 autistic adults and children. But in the US, roughly 2.5% of the US population has been diagnosed with autism and it is four times more common in boys than girls. And There was a 787% rise in the number of autism diagnoses over the last roughly two decades, which is on one hand, awareness being higher. So people are going and getting a diagnosis. But some think there might be other factors that are actually increasing the amount of people that are autistic. Why? For someone that doesn't understand autism and the process that, and the plight of a parent that has an autistic child, is the diagnosis so critical? Is it because you then get additional support and guidance and you can access that support if you have a diagnosis.
- [109:31]
Tom Aspinall
So I was under the notion that if my kid is diagnosed autistic or not, doesn't matter. That was, that was my original thing. Doesn't matter. He's still my kid. I'm still going to love him. I'm still going to guide him through whatever he needs to in life. Now I completely respect anybody who's doing that. It has a hundred percent respect from, from me and I'm sure everybody else. But the biggest issue is, like, me personally, I'm a professional athlete. It's like, I know that for this many hours a day, I need to be in the gym and training. When I'm not in the gym, I need to be recovering. When I'm not in the gym, I need to be eating the right things. And I have this process of things that make me successful. That's how I work in my life. If you don't have a diagnosis of autism, the only way I can describe it, because I've been there, is you just kind of like treading water. You're just stuck in one place, flailing around and not really knowing how to do them steps and progress your family life, in your child's life. That's the way that I look at it personally. I'm speaking 100 for myself. But if you've not got a diagnosis, first of all, you're not getting any funding, which, like I said, I'm in a financial position where I don't need any funding. But there's a lot of people out there who do need funding. And funding looks like outlets for the child, Help in school, help at home, help for the parents, help for the friends, sensory rooms in school, sensory toys. You know, there's a whole host of things that can help autistic children or autistic people. And without that diagnosis, if you don't, if you're a parent and you don't have that free child, from my personal experience, it feels like you're treading water. I feel like I needed a process of this is these are the steps that we have to take to help my child progress. And I think that it's. What we need is. It's not about another number on the statistics that you've read out. It's not about that it's not about me saying I've got an autistic child or whatever. It's about the help that your child can get. And right now, we definitely don't have enough help in this country.
- [111:49]
Steven Bartlett
I heard one of my best friends was diagnosed with autism. Been one of my best friends for a long time. He's actually also worked at my company for many, many years. And he spoke to me about the sense of relief that he experienced when he got his diagnosis. But also it was kind of like. Like you're describing. There was suddenly a sense of direction and understanding, like someone turned the lights on, and with the lights on, he was able to make better decisions. And it's not held him back in any way. If anything, it's done the opposite. It's helped him to understand himself. But I think for some of us who don't understand, haven't been through that, we either can't relate. But also, we have no idea that there's additional. I had no idea until you just said it just then that there's additional support given in schools and stuff like that to kids who have that diagnosis. So it's critically important, and I'm so glad that you share that with us because hopefully there's some people watching in the government, but also parents that can get together and that are presumably getting together to change this.
- [112:45]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I mean, it's a tough thing for me to talk about because I'm completely aware that there will be people watching this and thinking, who is this knucklehead? Talking about, like, autism diagnosis and what the government needs to go through. But it's also an experience that I've lived, and it's also an experience that I'm still living and that I'm fully aware, just from my local area and my circle of friends and people around me, that there is a ton of people who are in the same boat as I am and need help. And I feel extremely lucky and grateful that I've got the help and that we are progressing. But I know that there's a lot of people who don't and that are struggling. So I want to try and speak for those people if I can.
- [113:30]
Steven Bartlett
Thank you for doing that. There's a lot of my audience that are going to be very, very grateful for that. There's something sat next to me on the table here, which is this belt. It's very, very heavy. I know this is just a replica, but you do have the real one at home. And the reason why you only bought me the replica instead of the real thing is. Because the real thing costs a lot of money apparently.
- [113:52]
Tom Aspinall
Apparently.
- [113:53]
Steven Bartlett
Apparently. So I heard rumors online that the real thing actually costs about 300 grand.
- [113:59]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [113:59]
Steven Bartlett
And you have to sign a contract when you receive this belt that if you lose it, then you have to personally pay.
- [114:05]
Tom Aspinall
If it goes missing, I'm paying for it. So hopefully that one that won't happen, but it's in a very safe spot, so it won't. It won't go missing.
- [114:14]
Steven Bartlett
I'm not gonna ask you where you keep it because there's people listening. But what are these flags around it? I've actually never seen one before, so.
- [114:21]
Tom Aspinall
I'm not too sure I know this bit.
- [114:22]
Steven Bartlett
Bit. This bit here, the side.
- [114:25]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. So these, these little. These stones, whatever they are, you get one of those. The different. So they're all, I think on the real one, the diamonds. And this is a. Is it a ruby or something?
- [114:37]
Steven Bartlett
Ruby.
- [114:39]
Tom Aspinall
You get a ruby when you defend it. So I defended it once, so I got one. And then obviously that fills up the more you do it.
- [114:44]
Steven Bartlett
Oh. So if you defend it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times, it's going to be all again. Rubies.
- [114:49]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [114:50]
Steven Bartlett
Okay. What does that say there? It says UFC 304, Edwards vs Muhammad 2.
- [114:55]
Tom Aspinall
My personal one has my name on it and the proper details because this is a replica.
- [115:00]
Steven Bartlett
And when you won that interim heavyweight championship and then you woke up the next day, how did you feel, Honestly?
- [115:10]
Tom Aspinall
Well, I woke up about three days later. Sorry. I didn't sleep for about three days after because I was very excited. Yeah, pretty good. Pretty. I mean, I won it in weird circumstances. So that fight I took on really short notice. I actually wasn't in shape for that fight at all. I actually just come back off a stag do, so I wasn't in my best shape when I. When I answered that call.
- [115:36]
Steven Bartlett
Was there any anti climax to it?
- [115:39]
Tom Aspinall
No, no. But there's definitely an anti climax a little bit to like being quote, unquote, successful because you still feel the same, like as you. You still have the same issues, like, issues as you had before, like money, fame and titles. Doesn't change much in terms of what goes on inside your brain, in my opinion. Maybe it does change for some people, but for me, I still have the same struggles as I did before. It doesn't change anything in that regard. I think when you're younger especially, I don't know, it's like young people, they think that rich people have no problems and it just isn't true. It's just, just so far from the truth, you know that.
- [116:26]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah. You know, they say more money, more problems, but it's just a different set of problems than some of the others.
- [116:30]
Tom Aspinall
Well, that's it. That's it. I mean, at one point, as we spoke about in detail, a big problem was of mine was I couldn't pay my rent and I couldn't pay fuel to put in the car. That's gone. But there's more problems that of a role since the money won't fix. Do you know what I mean?
- [116:46]
Steven Bartlett
Are you at all concerned that when you, when your time does come, you want to retire relatively early so you don't get any cognitive issues or have to fight beyond your time? Are you at all concerned about what you do next? Because we've seen people like Tyson Fury sort of really struggle.
- [116:59]
Tom Aspinall
I. I am a little bit. To be honest, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. Just because it takes up so much of my time. It takes up so much of my time. And the time that I'm not actually, actually physically training. Like, I'm not in the gym training, I am doing other stuff towards it. I even stuff like breathing exercises I would class as part of my training, stretching, eating right, sleep. Like I would class this all as part of my training routine. So when I've not got that, what will my life look like? I don't know. I don't know. And that's something. As we spoke about before, I'm aware that I'm on the second half of my career now. When that's done, how does it look? And I don't know if anything can ever replace that, in all honesty.
- [117:48]
Steven Bartlett
What about the money side of things? So are you having to think now because what's the average age of a UFC fighter retiring? I mean, most people don't even get there, but if you do really, really well, you might fight until. If you're really, really lucky, you might do. Stipe's age 40 ish.
- [118:02]
Tom Aspinall
40.
- [118:03]
Steven Bartlett
Yeah.
- [118:04]
Tom Aspinall
Bigger guys tend to go longer. I don't know why that is, but yeah, generally the heavyweights usually 40ish.
- [118:09]
Steven Bartlett
So how do you think about financial longevity? And are you investing your money? Have you got people that help you?
- [118:15]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah, I do, I do. I'm looking to invest all the time, actually. My team has actually been really, really good with that kind of stuff. Like a lot of my. Not a lot, but a few of my sponsorships. I actually have shares in business as well. Well as a sponsorship and also I want to do more stuff I really love the sport of mma, so I'm always like, even though I'm retired from fighting, I will never be involved and I'll never be retired from mma. That makes sense. I've definitely made mistakes in the media space before, definitely. But I'm learning and I definitely think there's a place for me somewhere in the future to educate people on mma. However that looks, whether it's punditry, whether it's podcasts, whether it's, I don't know, something, somewhere, I definitely think that I will give some kind of insight to somebody where people can hopefully learn something from me in that regard.
- [119:15]
Steven Bartlett
I think you're more than capable of doing all of that. I'd love to see you give breakdowns. I've seen some of the stuff you're doing with school as well, so.
- [119:21]
Tom Aspinall
Ah, thank you. I've also. I've also. They've. I don't know why, but they're giving my own show now on TNT Sport as well, breaking down fights, so. So this is. It's the start. I'm just getting the foot in the door. It's not something that I'm focusing on full time now because I'm obviously really busy with other stuff, but when I'm done, that's what I want to do.
- [119:39]
Steven Bartlett
What does your dad think of all of this? He's been such a central figure in your life. This whole Jon Jones situation. You went in this belt that sits in front of me here, you must have blown his mind.
- [119:52]
Tom Aspinall
I don't think so.
- [119:53]
Steven Bartlett
Really?
- [119:54]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah. I think that he had this firm belief he believed in me way before I believed in myself. I always say, and I think that this is also his dream as well. But I don't think for any of us, and this is going to sound super arrogant, but it's the truth. I don't think any of us are surprised by it. I think that in some way it was, like, written for us to do it. I don't know. I. I can't explain it any more than that. Like, I feel like. Like we were both expecting to be here and this is where we are and. And this is where we're going to be till I'm done.
- [120:28]
Steven Bartlett
Did he ever tell you you were going to be here?
- [120:30]
Tom Aspinall
Yeah.
- [120:31]
Steven Bartlett
What did he say?
- [120:32]
Tom Aspinall
Just. Just little sn. He was never like, you're gonna be that. But it was like, look, if you keep doing this, this is where you're gonna go. If you. If you keep being dedicated to training and keep living your life right, and keep Focused, you can be heavyweight champion in the world. And I think that especially because I'm from like a smaller town, a blue collar town for sure, a working class town, that that belief is shut down so much from a young age by not just parents but other people surrounding in the community. Like listen, maybe don't, maybe don't, don't think you're going to be a Hollywood actor because you're not. Maybe, maybe try and be a bit more realistic and do something a bit. No, if you think you're going to be a Hollywood actor, you go for it. Like you, you go 100 at that and don't let anything waver from where you're going. And I think that that is not told to especially the younger generation enough. I think that like I say, I'm from a very, very blue collar, humble town and from my town there aren't many people who've done anything of great magnitude in, in terms of sport and otherwise. And I think a lot of that, not, not all of it of course, but I think a lot of it comes from the mentality of yeah, maybe don't, maybe don't aim for that, aim for something a bit lower and that, that shouldn't be encouraged in my opinion. Always your first option should be the highest of the high and if you land any lower then you readjust, you change the goal post a little bit. But the first thing is shoot as high as you can.
- [122:12]
Steven Bartlett
Are you special?
- [122:13]
Tom Aspinall
Yes.
- [122:20]
Steven Bartlett
Why are you special?
- [122:24]
Tom Aspinall
I think that I have, first of all, I think I'm really physically gifted in terms of athleticism but it's something that I have worked on a lot as well. It's not, I didn't just wake up like this. I've definitely worked a lot over the years of it. But I think that aside, I think I've got a gift mentally and this, this has been honed a lot by the people around me through the years. Like I said, there's been a lot of people supporting me. But I think I've got a gift to perform really, really well under massive pressure. Under massive pressure. And I don't think, like I say, it's been honed a lot for sure by my dad and the other people around me definitely. But I think that I, I have a God given gift or whoever, universe given gift or whoever you believe in that I can perform extremely well under the highest pressure situations possible.
- [123:28]
Steven Bartlett
Even though you feel the fear?
- [123:29]
Tom Aspinall
Even though I feel the fear because I accept the fear, I bathe in the fear.
- [123:35]
Steven Bartlett
I think that's not the first time you've said that.
- [123:37]
Tom Aspinall
No, it's something that someone told me. Someone told me recently. I thought it was funny.
- [123:42]
Steven Bartlett
So when you feel that fit, is there something you say to yourself? Is there like a mantra or a system?
- [123:46]
Tom Aspinall
Well, I, I always say that I used to have two fights. I used to be fighting my opponent, I used to be fighting myself. I used to be trying to block out the fear, trying to, like. But you know what, I just took it on board and accepted that this, this is going to help me. Like, there's so many examples over the years. I like to give this example because this actually happened to one of my close friends. So he's putting a wardrobe up. And the wardrobe, it was like a really heavy wardrobe fell on his kid, who was like not even walking at the time. And he's a skinny guy. Like, he's a small, slight guy. He was on his own and he, he pulled the wardrobe off the kid. Right. And then anyway, everything was fine. The kid was fine, everything, whatever. Five minutes later, he went to move the wardrobe to another part of the room and realized that he couldn't pick it up. And there's only one thing that's made him pick that wardrobe up and it's fear. Fear that that kid is going to get crushed under that really heavy wardrobe. And when he actually went to pick the wardrobe up without that, there was no way he could have done it. He had to wait till somebody came and help him move the wardrobe across the room. There was no way that he could have done it without the fear. And there's so many situations, like if you're running for your life, 100% guaranteed that you're running way quicker than you would if you were just running down the street. Goes without saying. Because that fear fuels you in ways that nothing else will. And I have accepted that and took it on board and used it to help me.
- [125:17]
Steven Bartlett
Because as someone that's watched your fights both on screen but in person, one of the things that I remember about you, more so than other fighters I've seen, is how calm you look in the ring.
- [125:29]
Tom Aspinall
Yep.
- [125:29]
Steven Bartlett
And I don't, I'm like, does he just know he's like amazingly good or is there something he's doing? Because you kind of look how I look when I get to the office and I don't have some 6 foot 5 guy that's trying to kill me.
- [125:42]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, it's all, it's all by design, though, really. By design. Yeah. So one of my, one of my absolute heroes in the sport of MMA is a guy called gsp. George St. Pierre is one of the best fighters to ever lace up the gloves, but not only that, he's one of the best humans as well. I'm lucky enough to met him a few times and had some deep discussions with him, and he's someone I've studied a lot, both inside and outside of the octagon over the years. And thing with GSP is he, like me, has always admitted how scared he was. And that's something that I've watched countless interviews and podcasts with him and how he talks about it and stuff. And he used a method, and he actually told me about the method where I'm not sure what the method's called. And I don't. I don't even know if there's any scientific evidence behind it, but it works for him gym, and it's worked for me on multiple occasions where if you physically present yourself in a way that even if mentally you don't feel like that, like on fight day, for example, the last thing I feel like doing is smiling. In all honesty, I'm not in a smiley mood. But when you smile, you feel good, you relax, you enjoy yourself, you're confident. So I will walk round, fake smiling with my head held high and my shoulders back like there's nothing bothering me in the world. Not because there isn't anything bothering me, because trust me, on fight day, there's a lot of stuff bothering me. I have to get in there in front of millions of people and have a fight with someone, and it's highly likely that I'm going to be separated from my own consciousness in front of millions of people. The last thing I want to do is walk around with a smile on my face, with my shoulders back, with my head up high, being friendly and nice to people and being in a good mood and being relaxed. That's the last thing, last thing I feel. But I purposely walk around like that all day in every situation that I can possibly be in. And sooner or later, believe it or not, my mind will actually start to follow my body's lead. And it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable the way that that can happen. And like you say, you'll see me. I'm stood there in the octagon and I am scared to death. My opponent is looking at me across the octagon like he wants to kill me, and I'm looking back like I'm in the queue for a sandwich. By design. By design. I do it the same with the walk to the Oxygon. There's a million people throwing beer on me, shouting in my face, booing me, sticking fingers up in my face, saying that I'm gonna die, literally while I'm walking to fight another human being. And I look like I've just woke up and taken the dog for a walk. By design, because if your body does it, sooner or later your mind will start to follow. And like I say, this is like a bro science thing probably, but this is something that I have experienced a lot myself, and it's proven, at least to me and to George as well, that it can be done.
- [128:37]
Steven Bartlett
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. This question is hilarious as far as I'm concerned. And it kind of reveals who left the question.
- [128:46]
Tom Aspinall
Right.
- [128:47]
Steven Bartlett
The question is, it's weird saying this to you.
- [128:49]
Tom Aspinall
Cool.
- [128:51]
Steven Bartlett
Why don't you work harder?
- [128:54]
Tom Aspinall
That's a good question. Who's left that?
- [128:56]
Steven Bartlett
Can you figure it out from what you said to him?
- [128:58]
Tom Aspinall
No.
- [128:58]
Steven Bartlett
So this was the last guest. I told you I was in America.
- [129:02]
Tom Aspinall
Oh, Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast.
- [129:06]
Steven Bartlett
Why don't you work harder?
- [129:08]
Tom Aspinall
That's a good question. It's a good question. I like to think I work as hard as I can can, But I think if everybody looks herself in the mirror, I think everybody could work a bit harder. I think I probably like sleep too much is the reason that I don't. I think that's the only thing holding me back, because everything when I'm awake, everything's geared towards me being the best that I can be. So I think maybe I like sleep a little bit too much.
- [129:33]
Steven Bartlett
So sleep makes you work harder?
- [129:35]
Tom Aspinall
It does. That's what I thought. That's what I thought.
- [129:38]
Steven Bartlett
That's still working hard as far as I'm concerned. Tom, thank you so much. You are such an incredible inspiration for so many reasons. Thank you. Mainly because you're so remarkably down to earth, but at the same time able to confidently say on camera, which I, by the way, really, really admire and respect that you think you're special. And I think there's a certain nonchalantness that sometimes people come with because they're trying to be, like, fake, humble. But I really respect people that say, no, no, no, I think I'm special. And to be able to say that with such humility, but also with such a track record to justify that claim is tremendously inspiring because you come from, as you say, like a blue collar area, you come from a normal place. You're a normal guy that has just committed himself to something despite the any short term or medium term rewards in your life because you loved it and you believed in yourself. And I think that for anybody, listening should be evidence enough that we, we all have a chance of at least something. It might not be being the heavyweight champion of the world because you acknowledge you have physical gifts that, you know, myself, I wasn't born with. But, but we can all do something with that obsession, with that focus, with a supporting group of people around us with the right mentality and with a commitment to it, despite the objective reality that we're going through. But also, I admire you so much because of everything you've said about your child with autism and the work you're doing to push harder for, to reduce the diagnosis times in the NHS at the moment, which so many parents out there are gonna really appreciate. And we are all behind you as a nation. You're a good guy. You'd be the first ever to do, to unify the belts in such a way as a British guy. And wouldn't that be something?
- [131:23]
Tom Aspinall
Listen, if anybody can do it, and just saying about the special thing, I wasn't born special and like you said, I am from the most regular background that you can come from. And I don't mean to say, I'm not saying I'm special, that in the fact that like, I'm better than anybody else because I believe that anybody can be special. And I think more people need to believe it. You know what I mean? I think that more people, if they work hard enough and don't quit on themselves, they can be special as well. And I think we'll leave it at that.
- [132:00]
Steven Bartlett
Amen. Thank you so much.
- [132:01]
Tom Aspinall
Thank you.
- [132:02]
Steven Bartlett
Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening. And tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, Please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. The Diary of a CEO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.