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- [00:00]
A
We need to have the right mindset and we need to address it quickly before it goes out of control.
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B
People just want to be seen, heard and understood. The client, when they're unhappy, they just want you to see that they're unhappy, understand why they're unhappy and then figure out, you know, what you might do to rectify the situation.
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C
An unhappy client made happy ends up becoming one of your most loyal clients and they refer because you solved a problem that they had and then they love you even more, so it turns them into a raving fan. I have always found.
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B
Hey, and welcome back to the difference Maker revolution. And we have Janine all the way from Tampa, Florida. We've Steve down in Australia. He's getting his Australian accent really back and thick now, so you may not understand them. And then we've Ronan here in Dublin, Ireland, where all the little folk hang out. So we're going to talk about that fatal call from an unhappy client. We've all been there, right, in our careers.
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A
Yeah. Well, I don't think you've owned a business until you've had to. You've had to face that fatal call from an unhappy client. Part of doing business, isn't it, really, and dealing with the public, really.
- [01:07]
B
You know that old saying that the client is always right, Are they?
- [01:11]
A
Well, the client thinks they're always right and you've got to, I suppose, treat them as though, you know, they're right. Sometimes we have to educate them about the way things are. It's not necessarily that they're wrong or we treat them, you know, as though they're wrong. But I think. I don't know, I think I want to take a step back when you get that call and there is a client that's calling to complain. I think when I first started business many moons ago, my first instinct was to hide under the table and hope that it went away and talk to every single one of my staff members and blame the client and go and talk to my parents and then find somebody else to talk to and complain. And yet there's a seething person believing that they're being ignored. And it's almost like we've thrown petrol on the whole situation, because what I'm really doing is delaying and procrastinating, not really getting the advice that I need because usually most people want to back you up and give you what you want to hear in a lot of cases and add fuel to your fire that you're trying to burn rather than see it from, you know, because I'm only Going to give one skewed version of what really happened. So I think we need to start there, Ronan. I think we need to start with somebody does call. We need to have the right mindset and we need to address it quickly before it goes out of control. And I think I see a lot, like on the forums, people sharing and seeking advice. And meanwhile, clients are seething, they're waiting for a response, and sometimes there's dialogue for two or three days and this person still hasn't called the client back. And that does nothing but throw petrol on a situation that, had it been dealt with in a timely manner and with courtesy, with care, prevents all that escalation. I think so.
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B
Janine, what about you? You know, Steve brought us back in time, probably 70 years ago. No, he's not quite that old. Brought us back in time. How we used to react in the early days.
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A
People were people back then. Yes. We have to send a pigeon, Ronan, Don't shoot the courier.
- [03:39]
B
Gene, what about you? Like, in the early days, like, of business, like, what was your reaction when you knew a client?
- [03:46]
C
In the early days, everything seemed so much bigger, right. If one person had an issue, I felt like I could lose my whole business and so I would panic a little bit. And I didn't understand in the beginning that, you know, when you're dealing with people, a certain percentage of people are just going to always have a problem, no matter how amazing you are or how perfect your business is and everything like that. So I didn't realize that in the beginning. And I would, I would obsess, I would panic and I would naturally get defensive. Like, I would try and defend us to the client as opposed to what we do now. But so, yeah, in the beginning, that is, it was, it was so much bigger, like, and then, you know how it is. And they say, like, you hear, you hear from the unhappy people more than you hear from the happy people. And you could hear from happy people all day long. But one unhappy person says something and it completely can ruin everything. And so it was so easy in the beginning to obsess over someone unhappy and not be able to see the forest from the trees, essentially, and to see what it really was.
- [04:46]
A
And they're so much louder, aren't they, Janine? All the unhappy people, they are very
- [04:49]
C
loud, they have raised tones and they're very depending on their personality. They're typically very authoritative and very not nice.
- [04:57]
A
I think the other thing, you made me think of something, you know, at the beginning, at the beginning, we were all trying to Be all things to all people. And we didn't know or understand or. I didn't know. I'm gonna speak for myself. I'm not gonna say we. I didn't know. I hadn't even heard of what an avatar was. I didn't know or had a concept of who my ideal client is and should be. And so at that time, you're desperate to just, you know, the classic photography term of bums on seats, you know, it was all about bums on seats. And it didn't matter who belonged to that. That seat. We just. We just needed to fill that seat. And even though all our spider tingles were saying, don't do it, don't do this. This is going to be a nightmare, we still book them in. We still did our best to, you know, encourage them to come in, and our spider tingles would go off even more, and we still didn't listen to them because we thought we needed to fill that seat, and we thought that we desperately needed that client. Not knowing and not realizing that the amount of energy and thought that this person is now going to consume, not just me, but usually multiple people in my team, how much productive time it costs, how much distraction it is from everyone else who is amazing. You just don't even begin, you know, to think about that. And I think in the early days, because we didn't understand that, we just accepted every single person rather than market for the right people, know who our avatars are. The word know to make space for more of the people that we want to attract and want to work with. And the amount of energy it saves is really powerful.
- [07:03]
B
I remember one of my big insights into dealing with unhappy clients came from Bill Gates. When I read his quote that said, you will learn more from an unhappy client than you will from 10 happy clients or something to that effect. I'm paraphrasing, but have you seen that quote, too? And it is amazing that it. It can get you just to think differently. You went. Talked about mindset Steve, but it can get you to say, right, there's an opportunity to learn here. Rather than my. My initial reaction when I started the business, too, was to exactly like Janine's. And your Steve was either hide or go on the defensive. It was never. This was an opportunity to learn something about.
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A
So, yeah, I think that's a perfect, perfect mindset. Random perfect mindset.
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B
Because you can learn. I know when I talk to clients when they're unhappy, you do learn so much more if you're open to having a conversation where you accept the responsibility, you know, and you're upfront and you say, I hear you, I understand, I'm sorry, let's discuss then, you know, what we might be able to do, you know, tends to, as we teach to difference maker photographers, like people just want to be seen, heard and understood. Right. And the same applies here. The client, when they're unhappy, they just want you to see that they're unhappy, understand why they're unhappy, and then figure out, you know, what you might do to rectify the situation.
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A
Most people just need that. They just need to be acknowledged and believe that you've heard them well.
- [08:38]
C
And that's something that I can't even remember where I heard it from, phrased that way, Steve, that when people are unhappy, they automatically assume that they're gonna have to be defensive, that no one's gonna actually listen to them. And that's why they start off so angry, because they feel like that's the only way they're gonna get heard. And then it's actually disarming to them. When you listen and like, tell me everything, tell me what's going on, tell me, tell me what, what the problem is or what you know, however is appropriate for what's happening. And then when they realize you're actually there to listen, the anger level comes down because no one ever listens to them. They're not used to that.
- [09:09]
A
Yeah. And I think asking them, what could we have done better? Like, I'm apologize, really sorry, I really want to help you and I want to use this as a learning experience, not just for me, but for my team. If you have a team, what could we have done better? And I think that gives them the opportunity to be constructive as opposed to destructive. And it, it shows them that you are willing to listen and that you are going to take what they say on board and make changes and adjustments to. Because a lot of the times they don't want anybody else to go through what they went through if it' valid, if it's a valid thing. And I feel that just being open has really worked. You know, when I've been on the phone with somebody and it's amazing how much we learned and developed our systems because clients gave us feedback. And I think if we see it as an opportunity to receive feedback and see it as an opportunity to develop our system so that that hole is plugged. Because we start a business, we don't know what we're doing. Like really, we have no idea what we're doing when we start. And we gotta Think of our business as a big bucket full of holes. Okay. And our job as business owners is to get the feedback that we need to plug one hole up at a time. And we need to see it as an opportunity to work with somebody that maybe have more experience. They may have had a bad experience because they have a better way of doing something, and their expectation was something different than what we delivered. So if we can see this as an opportunity to plug one of those holes, then eventually we'll end up with a bucket that no longer leaks.
- [10:47]
C
So, Steve, what would you tell, like, let's say. Let's say someone listening to the podcast right now has a message waiting for them and a very unhappy client. Let's see what it could be. Very unhappy client. They. They received their wall art and they noticed that there's something wrong with it. Very unhappy client. Very unhappy. What would you. What would you tell. What would you tell that person listening to do before they even pick up the phone? Would they. Should they text them back, Steve, should they text them back about the problem?
- [11:17]
A
You would start call with a call because it's. I think it's too easy for people to be more brazen, and I think it's easy to misunderstand the context of the text. And because a lot of the times you're emotional when you're. You're doing this. Sometimes when we text something in our heads, it sounds a certain way, but the person that's receiving it because they're in a different mindset is interpreting it completely differently. And when you're on the phone, you've got the tonality. You can respond straight away to their reaction and clear up any miscommunication because you've got them there live on the phone. You. You can, you know, you've got more of your senses working towards communicating what you want. I think, you know, somebody's received their photos. This is why I honestly believe that, you know, when client. When the photos are ready, you need to get excited for the client. You need to bring them in, and you need to celebrate this event that they're, you know, receiving their photos and go through each and every one of them with them to make sure everything's perfect before they leave, if they get home and they find something wrong. And sometimes, you know, we had clients who have damage their artwork in the car, and although they damaged it, it was our fault. Because what I didn't know and what I didn't understand was that they didn't know how to put it in their car. They didn't know how to secure it safely in their car. And so we made it a mission to take the. We learned from that and made it a mission to go out to the car and secure it safely so it would, you know, it was not going to get damaged. You know, if we needed extra bubble wrap, if we needed extra bit of cardboard to put in between things, we had the opportunity to go back into the studio, grab what we need, make sure that, you know, everything's there, make sure that it was all strapped in. And it was an opportunity to learn. But I think that call, when you get that call, you have to address it straight away. And the first thing you need to say, look, I'm really sorry. I just want to work out a way that's going to make you happy. Tell me what's going on and what can I do that's going to make you happy? In almost every case, when I've asked a client, what can I do to make you happy? Their expectation was way less than what I had dreamed that I would have to forfeit or have to do. Because if you give people the opportunity, then most people aren't going to be reasonable. And I learned how much it cost me to fester. Because when you're not in the right mindset and you're focused on this problem, my ability to book people went down, my sales went down. Everybody that walked in now became almost an enemy, and that spread to my team. And so the cost isn't what it's going to cost you to reprint something or repost something. It's those lost sales and those lost bookings that are the huge cost, the distraction, it's the huge cost. So to. To deal with it quickly, to allow the client to let you know, you know, and. And, you know, it's gotta be reasonable. It's gotta be something that you're gonna negotiate. That's the right term for it. But in most cases, I found almost in every case, most people were asking for a lot less than I was dreading. Happy to do well.
- [14:42]
C
And something else, Steve, that we found and I have found over the years is the. An unhappy client made happy ends up becoming one of your most loyal clients. And. And they refer because you solved a problem that they had. And so if you actually look at the cost, and this is why we charge appropriate pricing too, right? So if we have to redo something, it's not gonna kill us. If we have to reprint or whatever the case may be, we'll always take care of that for the client. And then they Love you even more so it turns them into a raving fan. I have always found if we are able to take care of their problem. And so if you look at it from that cost sense, like, if you don't take care of the client, you'll lose them for sure, right? And we all know the cost to obtain a new client, right? And so you know your cost to acquire a new client as opposed to fixing the problem that this client has and then knowing that once you fix it, they're going to be, like, over the moon and become an even better client and refer their friends. So, you know, if you can just kind of. I just. I just. I've talked to so many photographers who are like, it's not my fault. I'm not reprinting that. Like, why would you not reprint it? Like, what is it? Even at the most 200 bucks, you know, like, what is the cost to get a new client? What is the cost to make this client happy? What does it cost to get this client back in again, pay the fricking $200 and reprint something?
- [15:59]
A
You know what? You reminded me of a. Of a situation. I was on holidays, and so the studio ran while I was away. And then when I got back, I got a call from a client who referred me, another client, and they said, look, we referred you this client, and we went and saw their photos, and they were terrible. Like, my friend loves them. She's over the moon. But that was nowhere near what we got, and it's nowhere near what I'm seeing in your window and on display. And so I said, okay, well, just tell me their name. And I had a look, and they were right. Like, I looked at the files, and I'm thinking, what? And how did this go out? So I had to initiate that call. Like, they were over the moon. They loved what they got, but they just don't know what they don't know, right? And so I had to make the call and say, look, I'm really sorry I've been away. I just got back and have been reviewing because that person didn't want me to say that. They told me, and I just said, look, I was reviewing, you know, what went out while I was away. And I know that you love your photos, but I know we can do better. And I know that you didn't get the service, and I know that you didn't get the quality of what we normally stand up, and I'd love the opportunity for you to come back. And they're like, oh, but it's not and we love them. What are you talking about? I said I would love you to come back because I really feel like if you were to come back, you would be much happier. In the end they did and they spent three times as much. Did I have to reprint? Yes. I did ask them if, if they would mind returning those because I didn't feel that they were up to standard once they saw what we did and whether we could do a swap. And I gave them a full credit for it because once they saw, once they knew what they didn't know, once they knew what the standard could be for what they could have, they then saw that what they had was not good enough. So I didn't want that on display in their home. I didn't want anybody else to know that what we had given them was bad. And so that was a situation where I had to initiate it with a client. And I think I know that that got us another three referrals because of that one action that we did. Plus they spent way more money because now they actually had something to buy. So you can't think about this goes back to what you were saying, Janine. You can't just think about that initial cost of reprinting and print. What is the, what is the flow on effect of that and how much is it really costing you? Right. It cost me those extra sales that we didn't get and it cost me the. Would have cost me the referrals and it would. And it's cost me the trust of that original person that referred that person in the first place.
- [18:41]
C
Place.
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A
Like we're trying to build a business where we have clients for life. What do we have to do to create long term relationships with our clients? Because that's the most important asset that we have in our business.
- [18:56]
C
Well, and, and, and it's interesting, Steve, because you hear it, and I don't think people really hear it when they hear this, that everybody makes mistakes. It's how you handle the mistakes that matter. Right. And I think that, you know, when you look at when a client calls in their unhappy, like Vernon said, chances are we did something wrong. You know, and so it's okay to make mistakes. I mean you're not going to be. We've been in business for 20 years now. I mean it's not going to be 20 years without a mistake. You know, I'd love to say we don't make them, but I mean I'd be lying. So it's, you're going to make a mistake. How do you deal with it? And even if it isn't your mistake, like there was a, you know, you know me, I always look at Disney and so they had a story about a boy who had wanted. I can't remember specifically what bride it was. Let's just say it was based on. He wanted to ride Space Mountain. It was the whole reason his family took him on this specific trip. He wanted to ride Space Mountain. They waited in line, you know, hour and a half. They didn't. And it was the parents fault. They didn't check at the beginning of the park if the kid was tall enough to ride the ride. They didn't measure him at the beginning of the ride to see before waiting in line for an hour and a half. They have that right there, right? Measure, make sure your kid is tall enough for the ride. They get to the front of the ride and the kid's not tall enough. And the kid melted down as any kid would, right? Like this was his whole dream was to ride this ride. And it. Was it Disney's fault. No, they, Disney, Disney did everything right. They have the thing at the beginning and they have the thing and they're like, they, their safety is number one for them. But then the client experience, right? So they have all these ways for you to measure your kid and. But the ride, the, the person at the ride, when she saw the kid so upset, she's like, I'm gonna make this right. Right? And because that's their other key is how do you make it right? And so they took the kid aside, they gave him a little certificate and said that when he is tall enough to ride the ride, he can come back and he'll be at the front of the line. It was like his get to the front of the line path. And she assured him it wasn't going to be much longer. She could tell he was almost tall enough. And then she took that to guest services and they gave them a free pass to come back when he was tall enough. And so they didn't have to do that, right? It wasn't Disney's fault that this kid wasn't tall enough to ride the ride. But this kid's perception of Disney was definitely affected that day because he didn't get to ride the ride he wanted to ride and that can. And like, just imagine for a kid that could do their Persona, I'm not tall enough. Why am I not tall enough? What's wrong with me? You know, I mean, there's thousands of things that could go wrong. And a kid and that one ride operator that Cast member had the control, had the power because it had been given to her by Disney to make it right for that guest. And so she gave him a little certificate and then they got him to city hall and they were able to give him a pass to come back. And so that, to me, that's just, I think that's remarkable that they would do that. Um, and I think we need to think about that in our business too. It's not even if it is the, like you said, the client's fault. Is it really the client's fault? And even if it is, if it's ours, we need it. Like, that system obviously got put in place somehow because they probably learned that it's going to happen. A parent's not going to pay attention. They're going to get through the line. So you need to have a system in place that rectifies it for that child. So I just, I don't know. I heard that one. And that was one of those moments for me too. I'm like, wow. You know, like you said, when you learn so much, when something goes wrong and it's our chance to figure out how to go above and beyond. Now, you don't think that families are raving Disney fan. I mean, for Disney, honestly, what did it cost? A pass to come back, a future day? Come on. The amount of money someone will spend at Disney in that day. I cost them nothing. Yeah. And all the referrals. And a lifelong Disney fan told every
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B
family member, every friend about what happens and how they were treated so well,
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A
you don't even know them and you know the story.
- [22:25]
C
Yeah, exactly. And it affects my business. Right? So look at the trickle down effect of that. We had, we had it happen in the studio. And I know we're getting close to the end here, but we had, it happened a few years ago. One of my really good clients called in tears. So this wasn't an angry client, this was a very mom upset in tears client. And I'm like, oh my God, what's the matter? What's happening? Talk to me. And she's like, you know my 40 inch portrait that I saved forever to buy? And I'm like, yeah, what's going on? And it had been two years, right? The kids were playing baseball in the house and they threw the ball and it went right into the portrait, knocked it down and split it in half. And she's like, I don't know what to do. And she was like in tears. And she's like, can you fix it? I'm Like, I probably can't fix something that broke like that. I said, but we can reprint it for you. She's like, how much does that cost to cost me? I'm like, it's not going to cost you anything. And she couldn't believe like in that moment that we were willing to do that for her. And I'm like, I'm not like, you know what I'm saying? And it was one of the, it did happen after that did like, what did it again. But it cost me to reprint the 40 inch portrait to save this mom from. I mean, you, like you said, Steve, sometimes we build it up in our minds. What she had to build up in her mind before calling me to tell me that her portrait that she loved and had saved for, for so long was ruined because her children threw a ball at it had to be enormous. And so I can only imagine when we told her, it's fine, we'll take care of it for you.
- [23:52]
A
And you know what, Janine? I can just imagine, I can just imagine one of my team and probably the same as one of your team who received that call coming up to me and saying, oh my God, there's this crazy woman on the phone. She's going absolutely bananas, sobbing in tears. She's so upset. You have to call her.
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C
Yes.
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A
And that's the brief as an owner that we get. And so then we build all this stuff up in our mind about what this could be about and what we're going to have to face.
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C
You're like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, yeah. And in the end, it's a chance to make someone's day and realistically, it's an opportunity to invite her back and have another session in that case. And all the referrals you're going to get because they're going to talk about
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B
you and it's about creating an amazing client journey. So, guys, listening to this, if you haven't yet joined the inner circle, all you have to do is click the link below. Come in. Join an amazing community of difference maker photographers along with this amazing coaching and mentoring team that I'm surrounded by every single day. And you can too create a client experience that excites and delights every single time. See you on the inside. Bye for now.
- [25:05]
C
Bye, everyone.
- [25:06]
A
Bye, everyone.