The 'Chicken' or the 'Egg' in your 'AI Marketing'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Difference Maker Revolution Podcast

Episode: The 'Chicken' or the 'Egg' in your 'AI Marketing'
Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts & Guests:

• Ronan Ryle
• Jonathan Ryle
• Steve Saporito
• Jeanine McLeod is referenced but not present
  Theme: How the rise of AI is reshaping marketing for photographers, transitioning from search-based to recommendation-based approaches, and the foundational importance of clarity in brand purpose.

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Episode Overview

In this high-energy episode, hosts Ronan, Jonathan, and Steve dive into a lively and practical discussion about the tectonic shifts occurring in marketing for photographers, prompted by advancements in AI—especially ChatGPT and the newly-released OpenAI Atlas browser. Using light-hearted banter about chickens and eggs as a metaphor, the team explores the crucial question: In this changing landscape, what should come first—adopting new AI marketing tools or achieving clarity about your business’s core purpose and audience?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marketing Evolves, People Don’t—But AI Changes the Game

• Marketing strategies fundamentally rely on unchanging human nature, but the tools change rapidly.
  • Quote, Ronan – [00:00]: “Marketing never really changes because people rarely change, but the tools they use change.”
• The latest disruptive tool: AI (specifically search and recommendation AI like ChatGPT and Atlas).

2. Chicken vs. Egg: Purpose vs. Tactics

• Amusing banter about real chickens and eggs morphs into a business metaphor: Should photographers focus first on adapting to AI marketing, or on clarifying their brand purpose and ideal client?
  • Quote, Ronan – [19:09]: “The chicken and egg analogy for me was, do I start marketing on AI first? Or do I need to know my purpose? … The answer … is you absolutely do [need clarity first].”

3. The Shift: From Search Marketing to Recommendation Marketing

• Traditional Search Marketing:

  • Clients become aware of a need (e.g. wedding photographer), search on Google, browse SEO-optimized results, make a shortlist, reach out.
  • Timestamps – [06:44] to [08:56]: Step-by-step example of current Google search process for wedding photographers.

• AI-driven Recommendation Marketing:

  • Tools like ChatGPT and Atlas change the paradigm: Users don’t just get lists of links but receive curated, personalized recommendations with summary pros/cons, contact info, and even suggested follow-up questions.
  • Quote, Jonathan – [14:16]: “If I type [a photographer request] in, ChatGPT is literally going to create a shortlist… list pros and cons, phone number, email, website… recommendations of questions I should even ask…”

4. Atlas: The AI Browser That's Accelerating Change

• OpenAI Atlas browser integrates ChatGPT directly, producing ‘agent-mode’ recommendations and performing tasks autonomously.
  • Demo Example, Jonathan – [16:29]: Atlas can open Facebook Messenger, craft, and send replies hands-free.
  • Atlas currently exclusive to Mac M1/M2/M3 and up but expected to go mainstream fast.

5. The Critical Shift: Purpose Before Platforms

• With AI, recommendation quality depends on how well your web/social content communicates:
  • Who you serve
  • Why you serve them
  • What transformation or value you offer
• AI’s “conversational” interface means nuanced, deep communication about your business is more important than old-school technical SEO.
  • Quote, Steve – [21:35]: “You need to understand what the clients really value about what they're looking for… if you can speak to that… our messaging becomes more targeted, more attractive.”

6. Action Steps for Photographers (and Local Businesses)

• Get Clear on Your Purpose: Define your why, who you serve, and the transformation you provide.
• Refine Messaging: Make sure all platform content conveys this clearly—in human, conversational language AI can understand.
• First-Mover Advantage: The earlier you adapt your online presence for AI, the more likely you'll earn top recommendations.
  • Quote, Ronan – [23:53]: “Once Atlas becomes mass… the AIs see us… recommend us. Those who are in first… who understand this…will be recognized.”
• AI “recommendation marketing” will make old SEO tricks obsolete—no more technical loopholes.
  • Quote, Ronan – [24:53]: “This is not about technical tactics… This is that the AI understands who you serve, how you serve them, what's their transformation… so that they can recommend you. That's the big switch.”

7. Implications Beyond Photography

• Every business—not just photographers—must rethink their marketing strategy to focus on client clarity and value transformation, not just artistry or accolades.
  • Quote, Steve – [26:12]: “It's not just photographers. Any business needs to be really clear… [and] to spend time understanding what we are passionate about and what those people are looking for.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the pace of AI advancement:
  • Ronan – [03:33]: “In a year's time, what is going to happen will make you feel that the AI you use today was like a rotary phone is to us today.”
• On the loss of SEO effectiveness:
  • Jonathan – [27:11]: “SEO and Google search marketing are dying and AI recommendation marketing is here. This is the future. Wow.”
• Practical realization:
  • Steve – [23:28]: “I personally have stopped Googling for things… so we have to, to start moving on to this.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] – [02:45]: Light-hearted “chicken or egg” banter and introducing the metaphor
• [03:18] – [05:28]: Rapid AI development; comparison to past tech shifts (phones)
• [06:44] – [09:01]: Traditional search marketing explained
• [10:51]: Steve’s experience with AI recommendations (ChatGPT for home renovations)
• [13:46]: Introduction to Atlas browser and agent-mode capabilities
• [16:19] – [17:59]: Jonathan's real-world Atlas demo (Facebook Messenger automation)
• [19:09] – [20:10]: Chicken-egg analogy applied to business strategy
• [21:35] – [22:49]: Importance of clarity about client values/experience
• [23:28] – [24:53]: Steve stops using Google; preparation for Atlas mass adoption
• [24:53] – [26:51]: Why SEO tactics are out, and clarity/audience focus is in
• [27:11]: The big conclusion—where the industry is heading

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Final Takeaways

• Photographers—and all small businesses—must get ahead of the next marketing revolution, which is already underway.
• Success in an AI-first world depends less on technical tricks, and more on deeply understanding and clearly communicating your “why,” “who,” and value proposition.
• First-mover advantage is massive: Early clarity and messaging precision will land your business in top recommended slots for AI-driven search and discovery.

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Transcript

[A]

We talk about this, that marketing never really changes because people rarely change, but the tools they use change. Right. And we're going through this with our members right now and preparing their businesses for a change that's coming. So, you know, typically most people.

[B]

Is it coming or is it here, Ronan?

[A]

It's, it's, it's here, Steve. But it's not widely adopted just yet. Right, so you were in the really early stages, but the earlier you prepare for this, the better.

[C]

Hey, difference makers. Welcome back to the Difference Maker Revolution podcast. Today we're joined by Stefano Antonio Zaparito, who is in Melbourne, Australia, and Ronan Ryle, who is in the backyard office next door to me and myself, Jonathan. And today we're not really sure what we're going to talk about. We're sitting in the pub, the conversation is quiet, we're drinking a few Guinnesses and yeah, this could go anywhere. So what do you want to talk about today, guys?

[A]

Well, we were sort of starting, you know, that age old conversation. What came first, the chicken or the egg? You know that one. And we still don't know which came first. Steve does know that they recently bought hens when he moved back to Melbourne.

[B]

Yes, his amazing husband rob those hens.

[A]

And he knows that the chickens, the hen, the eggs come from the ch. But it still doesn't answer the old question as to which came first, does it?

[B]

We got our first one in the car bringing them home. And the way Jono introduces and says, hey, hey, hey, like I'm pretty sure I almost laid an egg. Like just, you know, with the intro, he always wait. He always wakes me up first thing in the morning.

[A]

Let me tell you, that chicken was eager to please. If on the way home in the car you got your.

[B]

Yeah, it was trying to impress. Trying to impress.

[C]

How many chickens did you buy?

[B]

Three. Three chickens, three chooks.

[C]

And do the crocodiles not eat them?

[B]

Well, I think it's going to attract snakes. It's going to attract snakes. But anyway, you don't have that problem in Ireland because of St. Patrick, do you?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As I say to. Because all of my family, Susan, my wife and all the kids, they're terrified of snakes. Now, I'm not that fond of them myself, but what I would say is that I keep telling them, you don't have to worry about the slithery snakes, you just have to be worried about the two legged ones.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, they're quite slithery too.

[B]

Very slithery. Anyway, yeah, back to the chicken and egg thing.

[A]

We should, we should probably talk about the chicken or egg thing. So, you know, how did that even enter my brain, this chicken and egg thing? And I think it came from thinking about our members and what they're going and learning right now and are really excited by it. Where they're learning about marketing for an AI world, Right? Because it's changing rapidly. Changing rapidly, isn't it, Jonathan?

[C]

Faster than ever before. Many people are saying it.

[B]

I need to catch up, boys, because it feels like I was on a workshop for a week and there's a whole new world that I'll come back to in our meeting, so.

[A]

Well, it's funny because, you know, when I first learned strategy, you know, important five forces, like one of the forces you have to keep an eye on all the time is technology, right? And I was listening to a podcast the other night about this from this technologist and futurist, and he was talking about the fact that in a year's time, like, everyone's really impressed by AI right now, right? But he's saying in a year's time, it'll feel like you were using a rotary phone this year, in 2025. So by the end of 2026, what is going to happen will make you feel that the AI you use today will was like a rotary phone is to us today. Right. Most people, Some people, people listening of a certain age won't even know what a rotary phone is. Jonathan, do you know what a rotary phone is?

[B]

Jono wouldn't know what that is.

[C]

Of course I do. It wasn't in my time, but I do know what a rotary phone is.

[A]

I remember because remember, Steve used to have to pick up the phone and you had to wait for a line and then there's all these numbers on a circle to put your finger in the right number and pull it this way and then take your finger out and then go and get the next one and put it off. The numbers wait for back.

[B]

Wait for it to come back.

[C]

Did you actually use one of those yokes?

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[C]

Wow. Yes.

[A]

And then it moved to a push phone where there was a dial down with numbers on it and you just pressed the numbers, you know, that was super modern. Big. That was super modern.

[C]

I think my first phone was a Nokia 3210 or something. You split snake on.

[A]

Yeah, I think I had one of those. Do you remember those things that looked like a brick? You know, they were about a foot and a half long with this big area that was as long as the thing itself and about, you know, three Inches.

[B]

You had to carry a case to carry the phone.

[C]

The Guinness is good in this podcast because we're going all over the shop.

[A]

We are, yeah. So that's just. Let's just bring it back.

[C]

So come back to marketing.

[A]

Let's come back to marketing. And now we, we talk about this. That marketing never really changes because people rarely change with the tools they use. Change. Right. And we're going through this with our members right now and preparing their businesses for a change that's coming. So, you know, typically most people. Vernon, it's, it's, it's here, Steve, but it's not widely adopted just yet. Right. So you were in the really early stages, but the earlier you prepare for this, the better. Right. Because there's first mover advantage for everything. Right. So the, for the first people to do this will be the first that will, will be recognized and will work. But what do we need to do? So at the moment, if you think about your clients and your clients, something makes them aware that they have a need for something, whatever that might be. So let's just take a wedding photographer. So most people who are getting married had two of them this year believe that they want a wedding photographer. Right. To work with them on their special day.

[B]

They know they do.

[A]

They know they do. They know they do. Yeah. So when you think about that and you think about how a lot of people go about that, they may be recommended by a friend. Oh, I had this amazing wedding photographer you need to check out Jonathan Ryle. He's absolutely amazing. You should book him. Right. Or you may have Jonathan being the amazing wedding photographer he is. You may be at a wedding where Jonathan was the wedding photographer and Jonathan went out of his way to get to know you and he was so nice and he made such an impression on you that you decided to book him. Well, more often than not, we find people find a wedding photographer another way. And one of those ways is they just search Google wedding photographers in Dublin. Yeah. And Google goes away and presents based on the essay SEO work you've done with.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The top three, four, five, six, seven. Right. And often what people do then is they click into a couple of them, have a look, they try and build their knowledge about who's available and what's available, make their short lists as to who they might contact, and then they might reach out to those, to a number of those. So that's typically how the online marketing space works. But that's all going to change. Steve, with AI, hang on a second.

[C]

I'm going to slow you down for a second. Right. And just for the record, I would never be crazy enough to be a wedding photographer. But marketing is such a broad term, right? Yeah, it is such a broad term. So let's dial it in. So what you're specific and even online marketing is a broad term. So what you're specifically talking about right now is search marketing. Right. Let's just clarify that.

[A]

So what I'm talking about is that search marketing as we know it. Right. Is going to change radically and it's going to change to recommendation marketing.

[C]

Okay. First, can we define what search marketing is for those that might not be aware of what search marketing is?

[A]

I've just explained that people realize they have a need for something, they go onto Google, they Google it, and Google presents some options to you.

[C]

Okay. Just making sure that everyone listening or watching at home is clear on what we're talking about. Cool.

[A]

So what is recommendation marketing? So you know, we often hear in people to people interactions the term referral marketing. Right. Where somebody recommends us and they are the best inquiries you can get. Right. For when, when, when your ideal client recommends somebody to you. Because why? Because they tend to hang around with people who are like them. Right. So if they're your ideal clients, you're going to recommend more ideal clients.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're going to tell them how great you are and the amazing value that you deliver to them and that's why they're recommending you. But let's get back to the marketing we're talking about. Right? And what we're going to find is that we're all, we all love convenience as humans, Right? So if you think about that, is searching on Google convenient? It may be more convenient than what was there before. Right. But we still have to do a good bit of work, don't we, to find who we even want to have a conversation with. So what's going to happen? If you think about this, Steve, have you done anything on ChatGPT yet where you've been looking for a solution to a problem? Now, I know we use it a lot in our business, right, but where you're actually looking. Let's take your chickens, right? By any chance, when you're looking for your chickens, did you ask chatgpt where's the best place to buy chickens in Melbourne?

[B]

Well, Rob has had chickens many, many times, so he knew exactly where to go in that case. But I get what you mean because at the moment we were in the middle of renovating the home and making it more homey and Looking for beds, looking for paint, looking for. Really getting a lot of recommendations using ChatGPT. Um, and it's been a game changer because I feel like we're buying more confidently. It's bringing up exactly what we need. I like the conversational aspect of it in that I can ask question after question to refine what I think we need. Um, and so it's been a game changer for me.

[A]

So you've just hit on a really important point there, Steve, that it's conversational, you know, and I don't even know why I'm saying this to you, the expert in conversation with people. But, like, that's the thing about AI, right? Is it is conversational and we as humans love to interact for conversation, right? So if you think about what you've just done there, what we have to do now is we have to figure out a way when somebody is searching for a wedding photographer or a family portrait photographer on ChatGPT, or any AI for that matter, we need the AI to recommend our business because that's where it's going. Because we as humans that we just talked about, we love convenience. Right? So, Jonathan, you should just fill everybody in on. And not everybody will have seen this yet because this is so new that it's just literally a newborn baby, a couple of hours old in terms of its life. Right, so, Jonathan, just talk to us about ChatGPT's Atlas launch, right, which is currently only available if you've got a Mac. No surprise there, right, if you've got a Mac. But not only does it have to be a Mac, but it has to be an M1, M2 or M3 chip or higher, Right? So the older Macs can't even take it yet because they're just in the. In. In the early stages of testing. Right? But this is going to come fast and it's going to be on every computer you can imagine, on every mobile you can imagine very, very soon.

[B]

Right?

[A]

We're lucky, Jono. We have M1 max, right? M1 chip plus max. As Steve so we've had a little play with this. So just give us an example, Jonathan, of the type of thing that Atlas would be able to do.

[C]

Oh, gosh. So Atlas is just so everyone knows what Atlas is. It's OpenAI's new browser. So OpenAI are the company that built ChatGPT, and they've also built this new browser called Atlas that basically has Chat GPT built into the browser. Now, I started using the browser the day it was released, which is probably about two weeks ago as late October.

[B]

And no shock there, Jono.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And second it was released.

[C]

Second it was released and I haven't stopped. And yeah, to be honest, I'm still using it as just a browser, but I'm not using it to its full capabilities. But some of the initial things it can do are just insane. So if I want to search for something and, you know, let's say it's a first birthday portrait photographer and Wesley Chapel, if I type that in Chat, GPT is literally going to create a short list of the top. I don't know, sometimes it does one, sometimes it does three photographers in that area. And it's going to list pros and cons, it's going to give me their phone number, their email, their website, it's going to show me some example photos and it's going to give me recommendations of questions I should even ask the photographer when I call them. So rather than me going to Google and typing that in and seeing who is ranked, whatever, and then making my own shortlist and going through each one and clicking onto their website and getting their details and writing it down and trying to remember where I wrote it down and doing my own research, ChatGPT is just doing all the research for me. Another example of what you can do with Atlas is something called Agent mode, which is going to be phenomenal when it grows up. So an example I gave in one of our inner circle calls the first week when we started this, six weeks of the AI marketing training. And the purpose of the AI marketing training is to basically get you to be one of those top recommendations on when someone asks ChatGPT or uses Atlas for a recommendation. Right?

[B]

And we all know the power of being an early adopter too, Jono. Being an early adopter is going to, you know, you're going to be the first to rewards.

[C]

But Agent mode, like one of the things I asked it to do was I opened up Beta mode and I said, can you send my friend Darren Whiteley, who's a member, a response? Cause he had sent me a picture and we have this joke. So when we go to the workshops in Glasgow, Darren doesn't know how to make toast, right? He actually got in trouble at one of the hotels we stayed in because he turned the toaster up to the maximum setting and the toast came out black. So the next day they literally at the hotel in Glasgow had like tape over the toaster setting to keep it at the setting it should be at. Right message for Darren there. So anyway, Darren sends me A picture on Facebook.

[B]

So he can't use an automated toaster? Is that what you're saying?

[C]

He just likes cremated toast.

[B]

Cremated toast, okay.

[C]

It's ridiculous. Like, the bread goes from literally white to like, you can't even see it in any. It's stuff burnt. Anyway, he sends me a picture of this as a joke. So I went into agent mode and I said, I want you to open up my Facebook messenger for me and write a response to Darren and tell him that toast is inedible for humans and send it. So without me touching a single button, it opened up my Facebook, opened up messenger, found Darren, wrote the reply, and then asked me, is this good to send? I said, yep, and I sent it. Incredible.

[A]

And that's only the beginning, Jonathan. They can do so much more already. You know what? I think the key learning for us in this is that we need to make sure that it's our business that's going to be recommended. And Steve mentioned a little bit earlier about. He loves the fact that ChatGPT is so conversational. Right. So we need to make sure that the AI understands who we are and be really clear about who we serve, how we serve them, why we serve them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what is their transformation? And we even noticed this in our inner circle members, Jonathan, where we talk about knowing your why, your purpose. Right. And at the workshop, Steve teaches about understanding your clients, why, you know, and what do they. What do they secretly want? Right. When you think about yourself and what your purpose is and why you are the photographer you are, and why you've chosen to serve, whether it's, you know, parents of four babies or whether it's newborn or it's family or it's high school senior or it's wedding. Like, why did you choose to serve that? Those particular clients who have that need. And I think it's really, really, really, really vital that when you do this and it's conversational, that you do understand your purpose, that you do understand your why. So the chicken and egg analogy for me was, do I start marketing on AI first? Right. Or do I need to know my purpose? Do I need to know who I'm going to serve? Right. And the answer to that for me is you absolutely do. There's no point in even considering AI marketing and getting ready for AI marketing and doing all the stuff you have to do if you don't know what your why and your purpose is. Know who you want to serve, know why you want to serve them, and then know that client as to what they secretly want and unless you know.

[C]

That.

[A]

AI is not going to find you. Right. It's not going to find you unless you're absolutely clear about who you want to serve.

[C]

So the first two weeks we're in the inner circle. So what have we been doing with members? What have we. We've been helping members to actually achieve and do.

[A]

So can I work backwards? So let's work backwards. Somewhere we will get, after a couple of weeks working through this, right? So where we will get is we will have content that we can put on social media, on our website, and everything that AI will understand and will understand who you want to serve, why you want to serve them. What, what's. What, what, what is it that your client is going to get from doing business with you? What value are they going to get from doing business with you? Right. So if that's the end result? So that when AI looks at your website and AI looks at your social media and AI looks at all that that it can see through the conversational text you have as to what you're about.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when you work back from that, then to do that, what do you need to know?

[B]

Well, you need to understand what the clients really value about, you know, what they're looking for in a photographer or in an experience. Um, because really, clients are really looking for an experience from us. Um, yes, they want great photos, but they value the experience and they value so much more than just turning up and, and having their photo taken. So, you know, if you can speak to that. I know that when I'm looking for something, that the conversation, I go back to that conversation and build on that same thread of conversation because I want to refine who I'm looking for and what I want to get out of that. And I'm sure that as time goes on, people are doing the same thing. So the clearer we are, the more targeted our messaging becomes, the more attractive we will become to the right client.

[A]

Absolutely. And here's where I think there's going to be a change. So this is speculation. Let's be honest about it. It's speculation, but this is where I believe it's going to go. I believe that when people start to ask for something like a first birthday photographer in Tampa, the example Jonathan used, I think it's going to get to a stage where it's going to ask, so what do you want from your first birthday photographer in Tampa? Or how do you want to feel when you've had that experience? Right.

[B]

I think for a lot of people out there, we've Almost skipped a step in, you know, we forgot to mention that, you know, I personally have stopped Googling for things. Right. And a lot of people are still spending time building their SEO, making sure that's happening. And I know I've stopped Googling and so we have to, to start moving on to this.

[A]

Yeah. And, and with Atlas, it's just going to amplify it. You know, it's, it's a bit like having, having a, a car that, you know, you press the accelerator and the accelerator is not quite going to the floor yet, you know, but once, once ATLAS becomes mass, this is just going to go like a rocket. It's just going to go. And the earlier we're ready for it and the earlier the AIs see us and understand us, that they're able to recommend us. Well then those who are in first, I believe, who understand this because it's not. This is going to be less technical than SEO. This is not going to be like, do you remember the days when we did SEO first and we used to do things like put our keywords in white writing on a white screen so that Google could find us? Right. And then Google figured that out and then they penalized you for doing that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And they changed the algorithms. There's going to be none of this with AI, none of those opportunities. This is not about technical tactics. Right. To make sure you're on page one. This is that the AI understands who you serve, how you serve them, what's their transformation, why this is important to you as a business owner so that they can recommend you. That's the big switch. And I don't think, Sorry, I don't think I know that the vast majority of photographers I talk to there, they don't get this, nor are they even prepared for it, nor have they even thought about it this way. The photographers, photographer, as we call them, who are the photographers who are preoccupied that this is my art, you should value my art, you should value me. I'm the hero. Look at all the awards I win, all that stuff. Right? This is not going to do you absolute. This will do you00good when you start a market on AI. Not that it does you any good with it with search either. We think it does. Right. But the need for this is going to change completely.

[B]

It's not just photographers. It's any business needs to be really clear about every business is. You know, most businesses spend quite a lot of money, you know, researching their clients and understanding them and trying to get into, you know, their, their mind the beauty is we don't need a lot of clients, but we really do need to take the time to understand and develop an understanding of what we are passionate about and what those people are looking for when they're looking for someone to fill that gap that they have in their life.

[A]

So isn't this an exciting time for difference maker revolution? It just feels to me that the whole world is evolving and pointing towards us going, you guys, you need to check these guys out. So, Jonathan, where can our listeners check us out?

[C]

So, just for the sound bites, you know, SEO and Google search marketing are dying and AI recommendation marketing is here. This is the future. Wow. But where you need to be to make sure that you are still here in the future is inside the inner circle. So all you need to do is click the button below, book a call with the team, we'll have a quick chat to discover what you need from your business, and then if you're a great fish, we'll invite you inside the inner circle where you can learn the future of marketing, which is AI marketing.

[B]

Sounds amazing.

[A]

Along with everything else we'll see on the inside.

[B]

Thanks everyone.