← The Difference Maker Revolution Podcast
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- [00:00]
Ronan
We see it everywhere. We see photographers talking about it. All my clients ask is, what is the price?
- [00:06]
Steve
Most mindsets go to the negative and they don't feel confident in their own pricing and they don't feel confident in their own value.
- [00:15]
Janine
The reality is most people don't know how to buy photography. They don't know what to ask. They don't know what are the steps involved. And so really, when somebody's asking the price, it's a buying signal.
- [00:25]
Jono
When someone inquires with us, they're. They're inquiring because they're interested in our services. Even if they start with how much does it cost? Question, they're asking because they're interested. So we need to acknowledge their question and their interest in what it is that we have to provide. Hey, difference makers.
- [00:40]
Steve
Welcome back to the Difference Maker Revolution podcast. Today we're joined by Ronan, Steve, Janine and Jono. And the first thing they ask us is, what's the price? Wtf?
- [00:58]
Jono
Well, they're not saying WTF in there. It's the. The photographers in their brain are thinking, oh man, wtf? Why are they asking me about pricing?
- [01:06]
Steve
Well, Janine, they might be saying WTF if the photographer responds and say, yeah, it's, I've just met you, but it's 10k, come on in. You get all my beautiful artwork.
- [01:15]
Jono
Wait, wait, you're not supposed to say that. Jonathan, do you don't think that. No. Darn. I need to go delete all those texts I just wrote today. Oopsie.
- [01:24]
Ronan
You guys are funny. Well, we see it everywhere, right? We see it everywhere. We see, in every photographer group, we see photographers talking about it. You know, all my clients ask is, what is the price? Not value my artwork? Do they not value my business? Do they not value me? This is the narrative we see everywhere.
- [01:43]
Janine
They're just price shoppers.
- [01:47]
Ronan
Just price shoppers. That's another one.
- [01:49]
Janine
Yeah, yeah, price shoppers, tire kickers, all these other things that our self talk and dialogue manifest. But the reality is, what we need to hear is that please, please help me. I have no idea what else to ask. And the reality is most people don't know how to buy photography. They don't know what to ask. They don't. They don't know what are the steps involved. And so they're asking the only question that retail has trained most people to knee jerk ask. And so really, when somebody's asking the price, it's a buying signal. They're looking and they're looking to buy. You don't ask the price of something that you're not interested in, usually. And so rather than get excited and think, oh, my God, there's somebody interested. This is fantastic. They. They just don't know what to ask. Now all I have to do is take them on a journey and teach them about all the things that they need to know in order to buy photography. That's what should be going through our brain, because once we do that, then they'll want to buy.
- [02:54]
Steve
I have a theory on that. I mean, it's funny that most mindsets go to the negative, because I think what they are anticipating is that they're going to have to justify why they, as a photographer, are worth their prices. And they don't feel confident in their own pricing, and they don't feel confident in their own value, and they think that's important. So they feel like, oh, I'm gonna have to spend my time justifying why I charge xyz instead of focusing on the fact that this is the client's experience and focusing on what's valuable to the client and what the client values and quoting for that. So I think it stems like a belief that when people are coming to you in the industry, that they're looking to book you for your work and your photography, rather than for themselves and for their family.
- [03:53]
Ronan
And we see that everywhere, right?
- [03:55]
Janine
Yeah, it's true. It is true. We know that. I think the. The mindset that I like to take is that I know that most people will only spend up to the value that they believe they're worth. And so if somebody believes they are worth that $3000 handbag, they're going to buy that $3000 handbag, provided they have access to those funds. And so it's not about. And I think this is where we need to build a bridge, because we believe that it's about our clients valuing the value of what we are worth. But the reality is, is that people spend up to the value that they are worth. And if we confidently are able to help people feel more valuable and we can help people see that their relationships are more valuable and reconnect with their children, then we should be confident in pri. In pricing. Because I think there's, again, a difference between what do we. What does most of the industry believe our clients want, and the reality of what clients are buying. And I know, like, I've been to Photographers with my children multiple times, and I'm never thinking about the work when I'm looking at Olivia on that screen and what she means to me when I'm seeing a photograph of Olivia dancing because that's her passion and the joy that it brings her and those details that are important to me and I know are important to her. I'm not thinking about your work, I'm not thinking about your style. I'm not thinking about the perfect lighting. I'm thinking about what that means to me and how much I want that child, that child Olivia to be that person every day. Because we all have our highs, we all have our lows, but that is the peak, that is the pinnacle. And if I can surround myself with that and believe in that and know that she can follow her dreams and her passions, that's what brings me joy, that's what brings her joy, and that's what I value. That's what I'm gonna spend my money on. But a perfectly lit photo, like, for instance, I was trying to book a photographer and we are just, at the time, we were not beach people at all. And his thing was, I take people to the beach. Now, he was a brilliant photographer, the style was awesome, but we are not beach people. And he just could not accept that we didn't want to be on the beach. It wasn't our thing and it didn't represent us. It represented him. It represented what he loved to photograph, but it had nothing to do with us. And so even if he was a way more technically perfect, award winning photographer, I'm not buying from him because what I want is something that represents Olivia on stage.
- [06:48]
Ronan
So, Janine, Difference maker revolution. We actually have a way to deal with this, right? Think call it A. E, A. Have I got that right?
- [07:00]
Jono
I think every time you say it, you say it differently.
- [07:02]
Janine
He got it right that time.
- [07:05]
Jono
Yes.
- [07:07]
Ronan
So tell us what the first A stands for there.
- [07:10]
Jono
That's acknowledging Ronan. And so when someone inquires with us whether it be responding to an ad, an instant form, a website request, it could be a comment on social media, it could be an email we receive, it could be a phone call. And they're inquiring because they're, like Steve said, they're interested in our services. Even if they start with how much does it cost? Question, they're asking because they're interested. So we need to acknowledge their question and their interest in what it is that we have to provide. And so we acknowledge that. Thank you so much. I think it's awesome. You're asking about pricing, right? I mean, you gotta think that in your brain and then you gotta acknowledge what the response that you give.
- [07:50]
Janine
You've got to Articulate that Thank you, too, don't you? You've actually got to write. Write it if it's a text or say it. Thank you so much.
- [07:58]
Ronan
So, Janine, the last time you bought your last car, when you went to the garage to pick your car, did you sort of ask or have you ever been in a buying situation where you just said, so tell me how much it is without that car salesperson finding out what you actually want before they can give you a price?
- [08:21]
Jono
Yes, often. And a car is a good example because there's different things that go into it. It's a good example and a bad example because so much of the cost of the car comes a little bit later in that process. But it is a good question, I think, a great example. Like a hair salon. And like, because you could call into a hair salon and say, how much does it cost to get my hair done? They have to ask you a lot of questions before they can give you that answer. And they do. And they're. They always add. They. They say, and you know, it's funny, the hair salon I go to, they always thank me, oh, my gosh, thank you for calling. And then they ask you some. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? We're going to get into that in the next part of it. But, yes, it's very common. This is not a. Photographers aren't standing on an island alone in the world of business. Then they're the only ones who get this question. Every industry, I mean, back in the day, when I first learned the business of photography in the early 2000s, there was a speaker at the time, and he talked about this a lot. And back then it was, how much is your 8 by 10 right now? A lot of people ask it a little differently with other things, but it was how. And then we would get it all the time on the phone. Pick up the phone, how much is your 8 by 10? You know, and. And he equated it to a florist. Like, if you called a florist and asked, how much for a dozen flowers? They're going to ask you some questions back. But that is because no one knows how to buy flowers either. You know, like, I might be in my mind thinking, a dozen daisies, but it could be a dozen roses, it could be a certain type of bouquet, it could be cut flowers, it could be a design bouquet, it could be a special occasion, like, what is it? And so all businesses get that same question. And then it's the job of that business to acknowledge and Then to ask the right questions back.
- [10:09]
Ronan
Well, it's funny, Janine, maybe I'm just in the wrong network, but I don't see florists all over social media going on about the first question the client asked me is, what is the price? I don't see hairdressers or saloons gone all over social media. So what is the price? So what is it? Is this that we've, as an industry, we've attached our ego to the wrong thing? Is that what's going on here is that our ego gets hurt? How dare somebody ask me how much my art is?
- [10:37]
Jono
That's a Steve's question. I saw his eyes looking at your square.
- [10:41]
Janine
Throw me under the bus. I think a lot of it has to do with ego. And I think as an industry, we're told that if we can take a better, better photo, we're more valuable. If we win that extra reward, we're more valuable. If we win take out a category, we're more valuable. I don't know how many times I've had people call me and say, oh, I've just taken out the Australian category four. I'm going to get super busy. And now I need to work up my prices because now I'm, I'm worth so much more. And there is that real belief that the more professional accolades we have, the more we are worth. And so I think it's coming from those bodies that are meant to be supporting us. But the reality is that our clients don't value the extra lens you bought. They don't care about the award you've just won. Maybe, you know, they'll notice you saying that you, you, you know, you've won international awards, but it's not what they're willing to pay the extra for. What they are willing to pay the extra for is your ability to find that joy in that child that believes that they don't belong, make them feel like they belong. Your ability to help a couple communicate again and go out of their way for each other again and give them something that's going to be that reminder of the fact that he does care. And even though he says, doesn't say he cares every day, he says it in so many other ways. And you photographed all those ways that he says, I love you. And when you give that to somebody, that's what they value and that's what they're willing to pay for. But we have to help them find by asking out, like the hairdresser, like the car salesman, we have to help them find all Those things that they value and give that. Give that to them. We need to say, and we need to be honest. If we just spew out a price at somebody, how can we do that if we don't know what they want? By asking them some questions about what they'd love to have and how important that is to them, which then will guide us towards what they want to do with those photos, where they want to display it, where in the room they want to display it, what sort of presence does it need to have? What is their decor like? So then we can pinpoint that exact thing that we're going to give them a quote on. So clients just don't know what to ask. But it's up to us. We're the experts. They're relying on us. We're the experts, and we have to take control and ask them the questions that we need in order to answer them honestly. Because just throwing them a price list, we used to do that because that's what we were told to do. And almost everybody came in not knowing the price. Sending them a price list doesn't mean they've read it. And in most cases, like, so many people have shared their price list with me because I want help on pricing, half the time I can't work out all the variations and what they've done. And I've been in this industry for, let's just call it decades. Jono, I know you think I've been in it for centuries, but it's only decades because apparently I'm older than your dad, so that makes me ancient. So,
- [14:17]
Steve
hey, you said it, I didn't.
- [14:19]
Janine
You thought it, Chano, and you shared that many a time. Thank you. So it's important for us to take control. It's important for us to ask the questions that are going to help them understand where the value is and what they're truly going to get from this experience and what a photo really represents. It's not just ink on paper. It's not just our ability to warp light and create magic through lighting and posing. It's got to have an emotional meaning. It's got to. It's got to evoke something in someone, and that's where the real value is. And until we know, you know, what it is that they're after and what matters to them, then it's very difficult for us to know, you know, where they. It's very difficult for the client to even believe that they're going to want to display something on their wall until you've shown them that you can create something that's going to matter to them and then depending upon how much it matters to them, that's going to depend on how much presence this is going to have. And standing it's going to have in their home, is it going to go in their front entrance? And what is a decor? What's going to suit that area? Only then can we begin to contemplate quoting. But you can't ask them where they want to display it until they under they understand how much it's going to matter to them. Bit of a cycle.
- [15:40]
Steve
Gwake. Hector. Hector up, did you?
- [15:44]
Janine
Somebody's woken Hector up. It's 4 o'.
- [15:47]
Jono
Clock.
- [15:47]
Janine
It's time for him to wake up.
- [15:50]
Steve
And they've got this squeaky little noise and it's like, oh, it's a dog barking.
- [15:55]
Janine
I think he needs to go to the toilet. He needs to do wheeze.
- [15:59]
Steve
Right.
- [15:59]
Ronan
He's a good, good, good boy that he's waking up to do his weeze rather than doing it all over the house. So, Janine, Steve may have done all of AEA there, but let's just go to E now. So. So tell everyone what E is.
- [16:15]
Jono
It's excitement. And so you gotta show some excitement for the client in their ask and their inquiry. Right. And, and, and I kind of wrap it in with complimenting too. So you need to show the excitement, not just. And, you know, everybody can raise their hand because I'm sure everybody's done this, me included, before I sat down and really tried to work out a texting response strategy and that, you know, someone says, how much is it? And you just rattle off. You know, it's like this defense mechanism. I think most people probably do say thank you so much for your interest. Right. Which also is kind of boring. But thank you so much for your interest. Okay, so it cost this to book. We've charged this for this. We charge this for this. We charge this for this. Would you like to book a session? You know, and I think we just rattle off this encyclopedia of information, kind of like Steve was saying, sending a price list, when all you really need to do in that second part of this is be excited for them and compliment them on their choice of wanting to find out more information about having a photography experience with you.
- [17:26]
Ronan
All right. That's cool, Janine.
- [17:27]
Jono
It is pretty cool. Ronna, thank you for saying that. You are such a good podcaster.
- [17:33]
Ronan
No, it is, though. It's genuinely different because when you read everything. I know our last podcast talked about the craziness in the world and all the negative we see. But like, for us too, like, we see the negativity from so many photographers who go on complaining about this, right? And there's no need to. There's no need to. You can, you know, you can acknowledge the client's question about price. You can be excited to get to know them a little bit better and congratulate them and compliment them on their interest in having whatever the photographic experience is and who it's for, which, you know, because they've applied for that. And then the final piece, Janine, the final A is what?
- [18:21]
Jono
Ask. Ask what questions? So you got. You need to get permission to ask some questions. So let's take outside the photography world. For example, let's go back to the florist. And so if someone was calling and asking how much for your flowers? You know, you're gonna thank them and you're gonna say, thank you so much for looking and, you know, for florist thing, like, thank you so much for wanting to find out more about flowers. That must mean you have someone special in your life you wanna celebrate with. Can I ask you a few questions to get more details so I can give you a better idea of what this will cost? Right, and so that was a really bad example of it. But the idea is you're thanking them, you're being excited, you're giving a compliment, and then you're asking for permission to ask them a few more questions. So that way you can engage with them. And the questions you ask have to be pretty simple, like, don't be asking long, convoluted, you know, difficult questions. Simple questions that they can answer to get engagement with you. So that way you can continue the conversation.
- [19:26]
Ronan
Like, would the question be like, so how do you like to be photographed?
- [19:30]
Jono
No, Ronan, that would not be the question. That is not a simple question, first of all. But nobody even knows the answer to that question, right? So they need to be questions that your clients could actually answer. You know, so for me, with birthdays, it's, you know, when is your baby's birthday? I mean, it's simple. Uh, and it allows me to. To get a response and start the engagement with the client. And. And then I can go in and start talking to the mom about her baby and eventually get to the point where Steve was talking about, where we can give them, find out what it is this means to them and. And anchor that for them. So the third part is the ask.
- [20:13]
Ronan
You sound very excited about that third part, Janine.
- [20:16]
Jono
It is. It's Exciting.
- [20:18]
Ronan
So, Jonathan, you know, what's your. Never ran a photography business, right, Jono? Steve has and Janine does. So what's your view of this? Like, do you agree with this approach to when somebody asks about, what's the price, Jono? Just give me the price, Jono.
- [20:35]
Jono
This would be a bad time to say no.
- [20:37]
Janine
He's a shopper.
- [20:38]
Jono
At 24 minutes into the podcast. No pressure, Jonathan.
- [20:42]
Janine
He is a consumer, so he's qualified to answer.
- [20:47]
Steve
I was gonna say just, just joking. Like, no, it's a whole lot of Coswell out there talking crap. Don't listen to them. But no, I'm only joking, of course. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, it's easy to make assumptions on the other end if someone asks a question without validating and verifying those. I think, as Steve was saying early on, the mindset's important and kind of the belief of what you need to. How you need to look at a question. Like, you can. If someone asks you how much is it, you can look at that and say, oh, my gosh, they're, you know, price shopper. They have no money, expecting it to be really cheap. I'm going to have to try justify my prices. Or you can look at it and say, as Steve said, they don't know what other question to ask. And it's our job to help them find and understand what's valuable to them so we can create something that truly matters to them. That's so important, isn't it, Jonathan, you're so funny.
- [21:49]
Ronan
Yes, Jonal, it is. It really is, really is really important.
- [21:53]
Janine
So when I moved to Ireland, I found that we had to, like, buy a whole heap of stuff because we had, you know, moved over with a suitcase. And even just to buy a vacuum cleaner, we went. We didn't even know where to go. We had to ask you, where are the shops that we can go buy one? And I think you sent us to Harvey Norman over there. And you walk into the, into the appliance area, and then there's the area where all the vacuums are. And you walk in, into this area. There must be, I don't know how many hundreds of different vacuum cleaners. And you're thinking, I have no idea. I have no idea what to choose. And so the salesman comes up and says, oh, can I help you? And the first one you could tell in his tonality, said it with zero intention of helping us. He asked as he turned away and walked away. And I think a lot of people do that on the Phone, right? And then there was another woman being served. And the attendant she had. He was amazing. He was going through and asking her questions because she's saying, you know, I don't know what to buy. This is what I've got. I just want another one. We've just moved house. And so the guy said, well, you know, now that you've moved house, you know, maybe you might need something different, given you're buying a new one. Can I ask you, you know, are there. Is there lots of carpet? She goes, no, actually, we did have lots of carpet, but now we've got wooden floors. He goes, okay, well, you know, there are certain vacuum cleaners that. With different types of heads that will clean, you know, wooden floors. Is it all wood, or do you have a mix of wood and. And tiles? And she had both, so she needed something that's going to do both. And then he asked her. Then he asked her, does anybody in your family have allergies? Because this machine, there's three models. Well, this one here is. Has much better filters and is more hypoallergenic. She goes, oh, all my kids in here suffer from asthma. They're always sneezing every time I vacuum. So, you know, that would be great. So what he's doing is by asking the questions, she's now learning all of the things that she needs to know in order to make a decision about what is going to. The bet going to be the best product, the best vacuum cleaner. And we sort of had similar sort of circumstance for us, you know, and he involved us as well, and she was happy for us to listen in, and we all, you know, pretty much made friends. But it's no different for us. Our clients don't know what to ask. They walk into our store with a plethora of options. And by saying. Not lying to them, because he could have said, this one's. This one's $200, and there was a $200 one, and this one's $1200. Which one do you want? Right? And she spent close to a thousand. But it was because he asked her all the questions that led her to know that this was the perfect thing for her. And it's no different for us. As photographers, our job is to guide our clients, is to ask the questions. It's going to educate them to understand what is the perfect thing for you. How are we going to give you the best experience so that way you end up getting. And clients aren't just wanting ink and paper in a frame. What they want is an experience. What they want is to believe that they're and feel that their family
- [25:41]
Steve
has
- [25:42]
Janine
this incredible connection and for them to rebuild those connections. So it's a journey. It's not just quoting for a frame or an acrylic or a canvas. There's so much more to it. It's a journey.
- [25:57]
Ronan
Jonathan, I'm so excited because I get asked this question all of the time and I'm listening to you and I want to know more. What do I need to do?
- [26:06]
Steve
Know more about what?
- [26:07]
Ronan
I want to know more about all the right questions I have to ask.
- [26:11]
Janine
And he wants to know how much it is.
- [26:13]
Jono
Jono, I was saying he wants to know how much it is.
- [26:16]
Steve
Well, what you need to do is you need to stop if you're doing this writing a 10 page essay every time your client asks how much is it? And instead click the link below. Apply to join inner circle and join the community. That's going to help you to answer how much is it? The correct way that's going to turn those inquiries or form applications into quality clients. Go ahead, get it done. We'll see you on the inside.
- [26:42]
Ronan
See you in there.
- [26:43]
Jono
Bye, everyone. See you there.
- [26:44]
Janine
Bye, everyone.