A (4:19)

Thank you, I really appreciate that. You know, we talked earlier before we hit record. Probably had close to 80, 90 people in this space. Out of my thousand episodes, we've had that many people that are leading DeFi web 3 blockchain crypto type projects like yourself. And I just really love this. I eat it up. What stuck out the most there is you're taking the crypto, the concept, the decentralization, taking the fraud out of it, right? You're taking that to the next level. And I think that's really important for our listeners tonight. A lot of our listeners are in this space and we love knowing that there's transparency in the big financial model. So thank you. And Thomas, in your article, Our Vision for Distributed Credit, you discussed the potential of distributed ledgers beyond immediate global payments. How do you envision the role of blockchain in revolutionizing credit systems? And what steps is Nirvana Finance taking in this direction?

B (5:13)

It turns out that blockchains don't actually make a difference. Let me unpack that. Many, many, many companies run their stack on aws, on Google Cloud, on their own homegrown servers, or they might run their company on a blockchain. It makes no difference what computer you use to operate your company. If you're going to Operate it according to centralized processes. If at the end of the day, there are just some stakeholders who make gut decisions in the moment to freeze a payment, cancel a withdrawal, maybe close out a position, the blockchain doesn't make any difference whether they're running on an Oracle server in a closet or something like Ethereum. The point I'm making is that for crypto to actually be different in a meaningful way from traditional finance, it's more of an approach, more of a process rather than a technology. I mean, after all, what we have seen in the crypto space has been nothing revolutionary in the last decade. It's been the same tired playbook of pump and dump scams, Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, shadowy individuals and multinational offshore companies that manipulate markets and they do whatever they want to do, regardless of the fact that it's on a blockchain. So just refine your question to say there is an idea lying at the heart of this endeavor we call crypto, which is to do your business according to transparent algorithms and out in the open with nothing to hide. Now, Nirvana embodies that idea. It does use a blockchain. It doesn't need to at the end of the day, but blockchains are very accessible platforms that anybody can access from.

A (7:01)

Anywhere in the world.

B (7:02)

But the most important thing, that you follow a rulebook called code and you show everything with full transparency and explainability. That's what I think is going to change the way we do business. And I'll underline the perhaps heretical point that can operate out in the open with or without a blockchain, and they can operate in the shadows with or without a blockchain as well. Most defi operates in the shadows, as point of fact.

A (7:27)

Thank you. I appreciate you highlighting that. And you made a great point. We need to have a major departure, really, from centralization to truly decentralization in order to have more transparency. And I know Nervana embodies true transparency, as you mentioned. I appreciate that and you did highlight a little bit. Regardless of the technology, it could be one way or the other. And the important thing that I guess the message is whatever platform it's on, it needs to be on a platform that is very transparent. So I appreciate the message there. Thomas, the last question of the day I have for you, considering your journey from a software engineer to a crypto innovator, what trends do you foresee shaping the future of digital assets? And how should both new and seasoned investors prepare for these changes?

B (8:10)

Digital assets are still in a puberty phase. Right now, we don't yet know what they are going to turn into. It's been an era rife with speculation. These highly volatile things that we call cryptocurrencies that people essentially day trade on. It clearly cannot be what this is for. And let's just do a state of the union. Bitcoin is about half the market cap of Nvidia. It's quite small comparatively. As an asset, 2% of the wallets own, 90% of the supply. So it's, it's quite centralized or at least concentrated, I guess you could say as an asset. I'm starting to think that assets are not the point of crypto, but products and systems are. My aha moment with this world we call crypto or defi was getting a loan within five minutes. You can take some digitized asset you have posted as collateral and you have a line of credit. No questions asked. Just that money is in your pocket, you can spend it and you pay your interest and you repay. And it's a very simple product that produces that. I think what we are going to see are not significant improvements in assets, but improvements in process where things become faster, smoother, more disintermediated. In other words, that the machines are going to take humans jobs and, and you can have very small Neo banks using very tight controlled algorithms performing transactions 24,7 in an open venue where anybody can have access to what they need. I think that's the direction of the trend, not the speculation and the gambling which has characterized the space for better or for worse, the last five years.

A (9:56)

Thank you. I appreciate that. I do like to hear your perspective. It's a little bit different than a lot of the guests I've had on the show, but I really do appreciate that. But you're absolutely right. I still think digital assets are really in that puberty phase. In fact, I still think, gosh, it's pre puberty, there's just so much speculation going on and somebody sneezes and the market changes and they say, well, crypto's not here to stay, that sort of thing. But there's so much more, as you know, there's more use cases for using digital assets. And of course I liked how you highlighted in the future, faster, smoother, better machines will run everything in a transparent mode. Well, humans can do the thing they do the best. So I appreciate that. And Thomas, it was such a pleasure having you on today and I look forward to speaking with you real soon.

B (10:39)

Likewise. Thank you.

A (10:41)

Bye for now.