How to Rank in ChatGPT - SEO is Dead, Long Live SEO!

Summary

The Digital Marketing Podcast: "How to Rank in ChatGPT - SEO is Dead, Long Live SEO!"

Release Date: January 27, 2025
Hosts: Ciaran Rogers, Daniel Rowles, and Louise Crossley

---

Introduction: The Ongoing Debate on SEO

In the January 27, 2025 episode of The Digital Marketing Podcast, hosts Ciaran Rogers, Daniel Rowles, and Louise Crossley delve into the provocative question: Is SEO dead? This episode, titled "How to Rank in ChatGPT - SEO is Dead, Long Live SEO!", explores the evolving landscape of Search Engine Optimization (SEO) in the age of generative AI and expanding digital platforms.

Evolution of SEO: From Traditional to Search Everywhere Optimization

Daniel Rowles opens the discussion by reflecting on the longevity of the "Is SEO Dead?" debate, noting its origins over a decade ago. He connects this ongoing discourse to his recent experience teaching at Imperial College, where students express concerns about the future of SEO careers amidst the rise of generative AI and changing search behaviors.

Daniel Rowles [00:35]: "It's the gig that keeps on paying."

Rogers and Rowles introduce the concept of Search Everywhere Optimization (SEO), a term coined by Neil Patel, to highlight the shift from traditional search engines to a broader range of platforms where search functionalities are embedded.

Daniel Rowles [01:32]: "Search Everywhere Optimization, which is very valid. But you're not happy about this, are you?"

Ciaran Rogers voices his skepticism towards the new acronym, emphasizing that while the platforms change, the core objective of SEO—findability—remains consistent.

Ciaran Rogers [01:42]: "It's not big and it's not clever. Honestly, I'm just, I'm over it."

Impact of AI and Generative Search on SEO

The conversation shifts to the impact of generative AI on search behaviors. Rowles points out that while approximately 80% of web traffic still originates from search engines, the way users engage with search has diversified across social media and other digital platforms.

Daniel Rowles [02:06]: "We are spending our time in other places. We spend our time in social media, we spend our time on websites and apps, but search is still coming from search engines. That is shifting."

Rowles raises a pertinent concern about Search Generative Experience (SGE), where AI-driven answers could potentially reduce clicks on paid ads, jeopardizing a significant revenue stream for search engines like Google.

Daniel Rowles [03:50]: "If we were getting our answers from those AI answers in Google, we would stop clicking on the ads."

Ciaran counters by suggesting that the shift to AI-provided answers might coincide with low conversion rates from traditional SEO traffic.

Ciaran Rogers [05:32]: "That traffic never converted anyway because people just came, they viewed your blog or your web page, they got the answer and they disappeared off again."

Adapting SEO: Focus on Findability Across Platforms

Louise Crossley emphasizes the need to adapt SEO strategies to ensure content is featured in AI-generated snippets and remains discoverable across various platforms.

Louise Crossley [05:52]: "It's just shifting your focus...you're going to be the website that's featured in those snippets."

Ciaran reiterates that regardless of the platform, the fundamental goal remains to make content easily discoverable to the target audience.

Ciaran Rogers [06:10]: "It's about thinking about your customers, thinking about your audience."

Daniel introduces Search Journey Optimization (SJO) as a tongue-in-cheek extension of SEO, encompassing optimization across multiple search platforms, including traditional search engines, generative AI tools, and social media.

Daniel Rowles [06:38]: "Search Journey Optimization is now, you know, simpler to remember as SEO."

This playful rebranding underscores the podcast's central thesis: SEO is not dead but continually evolving to meet the changing dynamics of digital search behaviors.

Conclusion: SEO's Resilience and Future Prospects

The hosts conclude with an optimistic outlook on the future of SEO. They assert that while the tools and platforms may change, the essence of SEO—enhancing findability and user experience—remains vital. The introduction of new acronyms like SJO serves as a reminder of SEO’s adaptive nature rather than signaling its demise.

Daniel Rowles [08:58]: "SEO has always evolved. It will always evolve."

Ciaran adds a humorous note about the potential emergence of agencies specializing in SJO, reinforcing the idea that SEO will adapt to encompass new search paradigms.

Ciaran Rogers [09:02]: "It's catchy. It's catchier than SEO, the new SEO."

The episode wraps up with a promise of more in-depth discussions and resources on the evolving nature of SEO, encouraging listeners to revisit the basics while embracing new strategies.

Daniel Rowles [09:06]: "SEO is dead. Long live SEO."

---

Key Takeaways

1. SEO is Evolving, Not Dead: The central argument is that SEO continues to adapt to new technologies and platforms, maintaining its relevance in the digital marketing landscape.

2. Search Everywhere Optimization (SEO): The term emphasizes the need to optimize content across various platforms beyond traditional search engines, including social media and AI-driven tools.

3. Impact of Generative AI: AI-generated answers and generative search experiences influence how users interact with search results, potentially altering traffic and revenue models for search engines.

4. Findability Remains Crucial: Regardless of platform changes, ensuring that content is easily discoverable by the target audience remains the core objective of SEO.

5. Adaptation through Search Journey Optimization (SJO): The playful rebranding to SJO highlights the importance of optimizing across the entire user journey, encompassing multiple search touchpoints.

Notable Quotes

• Daniel Rowles [02:06]: "We are spending our time in other places... but search is still coming from search engines. That is shifting."

• Ciaran Rogers [05:32]: "That traffic never converted anyway because people just came, they viewed your blog or your web page, they got the answer and they disappeared off again."

• Daniel Rowles [06:38]: "Search Journey Optimization is now, you know, simpler to remember as SEO."

• Daniel Rowles [09:06]: "SEO is dead. Long live SEO."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Digital Marketing Podcast serves as a thoughtful exploration of the current state and future of SEO. By addressing concerns around generative AI and the diversification of search platforms, the hosts provide valuable insights into how digital marketers can navigate and adapt to the evolving SEO landscape. The consensus is clear: SEO is not dead; it is merely transforming to meet the demands of a dynamic digital environment.

For more episodes, resources, and to engage with the hosts, visit TargetInternet.com.

Transcript

[Kieran Rogers]

Welcome to the Digital Marketing Podcast brought to you by targetinternet.com My name is Kieran Rogers.

[Louise Crosslett]

I'm Louise Crosslett.

[Daniel Rawls]

And I'm Daniel Rawls.

[Kieran Rogers]

And today we are discussing Is SEO dead? The 2025 edition.

[Daniel Rawls]

I was trying to track back how long I've been doing Is SEO Dead? Podcasts and presentations, and it goes back least a decade or maybe even longer than that.

[Kieran Rogers]

I think it's a good gig.

[Daniel Rawls]

It's a good gig. It's the gig that keeps on paying. Right now, people may be quite cynical of this, but the reason being is I've just started teaching my MSc program at Imperial College again. So hello to my MSc students or my digital marketing students. And there's 330 of them.

[Kieran Rogers]

Big whoop.

[Daniel Rawls]

A big whoop. Okay, thank you.

[Louise Crosslett]

High energy levels today.

[Daniel Rawls]

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. A beautiful thing. And what they keep coming up and asking. We keep talking about SEO, but then we keep talking about generative AI and generative search and they go, surely I'm looking at careers. SEO would be a bad direction to go in because it's going to disappear and it's going to change. Now, before we get into that, I would like to make Kieran sicken his mouth a little bit. So I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, there is a new three letter acronym, Kieran. Yeah, it is SEO. Now that, that might confuse you a bit. And this is going to go in circles, this podcast. It's Search Everywhere optimization.

[Kieran Rogers]

Oh, for crying out loud.

[Daniel Rawls]

Okay, so this was on a Neil Patel blog. I think he did coin the phrase, but Search Everywhere Optimization, which is very valid. But you're not happy about this, are you?

[Kieran Rogers]

No, it's not big and it's not clever. Honestly, I'm just, I'm over it. It's. It's like Web 4.0.

[Daniel Rawls]

Well, this, this is what I wanted to get to. This is the full circle.

[Kieran Rogers]

I mean, it is different, but actually the concept is still, still the same. So big news, everybody. Search engines apparently aren't where you get all of your traffic from anymore. Like, don't quite believe that yet. Hasn't quite happened as, as I've seen it yet.

[Daniel Rawls]

Well, interestingly, if something like 80% of all web traffic is still coming from search engines, but the reality is we're not spending 80% of our time in the search engines. So this is a, this is a really important point. So it is completely valid. But what I would say is that we are spending our time in other places. We spend our time in social media, we spend our time on websites and apps, but search is still coming from search engines. That is shifting. We are. The second biggest search engine is Instagram now where it was YouTube for a long time. So we are searching in social media. And I think this is, this is the point. We did an episode previously where we said search engine optimization, Generative engine optimization. And he's the top of ChatGPT, answer engine optimization, which is really about initially about voice assistants and all those kind of things as well. Search Generative Experience, which is the results within. Within Google. And I think the reality is we are searching in more and more places, which is fine. Does that mean SEO is dead? No, I would al. I was asked the question by a student as well, which I thought was really interesting. They're saying, well, with sge, with the AI results in Google itself, Search Generative Experience, they make all their money from paid search. And if everyone's getting their answers from those AI answers, are they going to stop making any money? And does that mean that they've got a problem? They have to change things? And I think it's very valid to say if we were getting our answers from those AI answers in Google, we would stop clicking on the ads. But you could be absolutely sure, bearing in mind that Google makes 80 plus percent of its profit from paid search ads still, if they find it's working really effectively, they're not just going to stop there. They'll go, okay, well we'll just stop selling ads then if this is working really effectively. So I think you've got to see how Google evolve with this and what they do differently. So search engine optimization itself will change within Google, which will start to have elements of generative engine optimization baked into it because you're getting both of those things from the same place.

[Kieran Rogers]

Do you know what? I've had a flashback to one of the first people we interviewed on the podcast. Do you remember Heather Lutz?

[Daniel Rawls]

Yes, I do actually.

[Kieran Rogers]

Findability expert.

[Daniel Rawls]

Yeah.

[Kieran Rogers]

And she argued, actually it was all about findability.

[Daniel Rawls]

Right.

[Kieran Rogers]

And this was. That's where I'm going back in 2012. So sorry, Neil, but Heather, God bless her, you got that first, didn't you? Heather still listens, I think. If you're listening, Heather, big shout out, big whoop, whoops.

[Daniel Rawls]

Another multi whoop today. So my key thing with this is like, okay, search engine optimization has evolved and has changed significantly over the years. It's got more and more advanced because Google became more and more complex over a period of time. So we kind of evolved and every time it got really complex, we said, well, is it dead? Because now they're so good at understanding user signals, we don't even need to think about it anymore. I think the shift is we don't need to think about it anywhere, so we need to think about it everywhere.

[Kieran Rogers]

The thing is, I quite like this kind of way of looking at it because actually if it's all about findability, then of course doesn't matter what platforms come along. And actually it always has been. Do you know what? I'm not so sold that people aren't finding answers on search engines in large enough numbers to make SEO be a dead thing.

[Daniel Rawls]

Right.

[Kieran Rogers]

I think a far bigger problem, kind of the elephant in the room is AI, like scraped results that mean you don't need to visit websites that are giving all the answers in the first place, like search.

[Daniel Rawls]

Generative experience is kind of the same thing.

[Kieran Rogers]

Yeah, it is, it is. But you know, the search engines using AI to just give you the answer so you don't have to visit someone's website to read their blog is a much bigger kind of slice of the pie. What I would argue though is that that traffic never converted anyway because people just came, they viewed your blog or your web page, they got the answer and they disappeared off again.

[Louise Crosslett]

It's just shifting your focus, isn't it? Because like you say with sge, you want to focus your content so that you're going to be the website that's featured in those snippets and it's going to be your website that Google pulls that data from and then people will go find out more.

[Kieran Rogers]

It's. It's about thinking about your customers, thinking about your audience, thinking about.

[Daniel Rawls]

Well, not back to this pescal thing again.

[Kieran Rogers]

It's not really changed, is it? That's the thing. We give it all sorts of fancy names like Geo and SGO and blah, blah, blah, but actually it's just about being found. And it's. Traditional marketing's always done this, done it for hundreds of years. Work out what your audience have got their eyeballs on, make it really easy for you to pop out of them.

[Daniel Rawls]

Well, well, well, on that exact note, I have come up with a new three letter acronym. You'll be pleased to hear, Kieran.

[Kieran Rogers]

Joy. Deep joy. Come on, hit me with it.

[Daniel Rawls]

Well, well, it's this new model. So we've got, you know, searches in search engines, we've got generative engine, AI searches. Yeah. We've got social optimization where we're optimizing our social Media content. We've got media optimization, where we're optimizing our video content and our podcast content to make it discoverable. And we've also got Voice Assistant Discoverability, which to be honest, will just be AI stuff, because it's just going to be the AIs with a voice on top of it, like chat. GPT already is. So what we're really talking about is talking about the user journey and optimizing throughout the user journey. So on that note, what we're going to start calling it is Search Journey Optimization. Sjo. But. But this search journey is basically across a whole number of different engines, like a search engine and a generative engine and maybe a social engine. So really we could call it Search Engine Optimization. There you go. SEO's dead. Long live SEO. So, yeah, so Search Journey Optimization is now, you know, simpler to remember as SEO. But remember, you heard it here first, SEO has become sjo, which is in fact SEO. So I'm being kind of slightly facetious. I think the problem is, right, what we're kind of proving this very short but to the point podcast is that SEO has always evolved. It will always evolve. Now we can get really specific and say, well, it's not a search engine, it's a social media platform, or it's a generative AI tool. Yeah, okay, but really what we're doing is focusing on discoverability throughout the user journey. Call it what you will. There will be, there will be agencies spinning off that specialize in these different things and so on. But it is just comes down to who's your target audience, what's their journey? Are you making yourself discoverable at each of those different stages? I am going to do a diagram and a guide to sjo and I'm going to see if I can make this take off. I'm going to get T shirts.

[Kieran Rogers]

There'll be, there'll be agencies out there fighting, fighting for the glory of the UK's number one SJO agency.

[Daniel Rawls]

I think that's it. I want to try and I want to try and do this and I want someone to start an agency that talks about SJO and then just refer back to this podcast and say, it's nonsense, it doesn't exist. We started a whole, whole industry by accident by trying to spoof people.

[Kieran Rogers]

Sjo.

[Daniel Rawls]

So there you go, you heard it.

[Kieran Rogers]

It's catchy. It's catchier than SEO, the new SEO.

[Daniel Rawls]

I quite like that as well. SEO is the new SEO. Yeah, but, yeah, so SEO is dead. Long live SEO. That's a real quick one from us at the Digital Marketing Podcast. We have got some live updates and deep dive masterclasses on this in a more serious note coming up as well. But don't be misled by all these new acronyms. Just go back to basics and thank you for listening to Digital Marketing Podcast and I'll speak to you again very, very soon. For more episodes resources to leave a review or to get in contact, go to targetinternet.com podcast.