The Digital Marketing Podcast – “Matthews on Marketing” Interview (April 3, 2016)
Episode Overview
In this episode, host Ciaran Rogers talks to Tim Matthews, Silicon Valley marketing leader, author, and founder of the blog Matthews on Marketing. The conversation explores Matthews’ foundational views on the practice of marketing, the enduring relevance of the four Ps, debunking myths around “no marketing” startups, the blend of traditional and digital marketing strategies, and practical advice for marketers on testing, optimization, and building foundational skills. The episode also discusses Matthews’ book, “The Professional Marketer,” and his most valued sources of ongoing inspiration.
Main Discussion Points & Insights
1. Defining Marketing: Beyond Promotion
Timestamps: 00:51–03:52
- Tim Matthews emphasizes the importance of the classic “four Ps” (product, price, place, promotion) as the true pillars of marketing, highlighting how most people myopically focus on promotion alone.
- He credits Jerome McCarthy for this enduring framework, noting its ongoing relevance:
“A lot of us only think about the promotion part of marketing. But if you think about what you’re building, where you’re selling it, and how much you’re selling it for, there are so many levers in marketing to pull using those concepts.” (Tim Matthews, 01:12)
- Applying the four Ps is about diagnosing business challenges and choosing the right lever to remedy a specific issue (e.g., not every sales problem is a promotion problem).
2. Debunking Marketing Myths in Startups
Timestamps: 03:52–05:22
- Matthews critiques the narrative in Silicon Valley that some unicorn startups “do no marketing” when in reality they excel at forms of marketing that aren’t always recognized as such, e.g., content or influencer outreach instead of traditional press releases.
- He lampoons the perceived division between what counts and what doesn’t:
“Just because you don’t go to a trade show and go to a meetup instead doesn’t mean you’re not doing marketing. You’re just doing a different form of marketing.” (Tim Matthews, 04:13)
3. Rethinking the Digital vs. Traditional Divide
Timestamps: 06:01–10:44
- Both host and guest underscore the need to meet audiences wherever they truly are, whether in digital or physical spaces.
- Matthews stresses pragmatism over trend-chasing, using platforms only where their audience actually spends time:
“Don’t be led by the shiny new object just because somebody else is doing it. Make sure it’s applicable to your marketplace because you’ve only got so many hours in the day and so many dollars in your budget.” (Tim Matthews, 06:06)
- Revival of “retro” tactics (e.g., direct mail, scratch cards) can cut through digital fatigue—especially with smart digital integration like QR codes.
- Measurement is key:
“Now you can combine the old and the new with a QR code or a promo code or some kind of offer... you can come up with some really innovative stuff.” (Tim Matthews, 11:00)
4. Site Optimization and Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO)
Timestamps: 11:41–16:18
- Matthews shares that CRO is a major focus for his team, using tools like Optimizely to experiment constantly with website changes—sometimes yielding dramatic results:
“On our website, we changed the words ‘talk to sales’ to ‘get quote’ and we saw over 200% increase... because that’s what they wanted. They didn’t want to talk to a salesperson... they wanted to get a quote.” (Tim Matthews, 12:15)
- He advocates for continual testing and using case studies from platforms like Conversion XL and Unbounce for inspiration.
- The importance of optimizing user experience post-click is often underestimated:
“If you’re going to get people to your front door and they’re not going to walk in, then what’s the point?” (Tim Matthews, 15:16)
5. Bridging the Creative–Analytical Divide
Timestamps: 16:18–17:15
- Matthews contends there’s “room in a marketing team for the extroverted promoter... and the guy in the back room tinkering who’s really going to make your stuff look better and yield better.”
- He stresses the balance between creative messaging and analytical optimization, seeing value in both for strong marketing teams.
6. Tim Matthews’ Top Marketing Resources
Timestamps: 17:31–18:50
- If stranded on an island, his essentials would be:
- Conversion XL
- The full catalog of TED Talks
- Every book by David Ogilvy
- He values Ogilvy for direct marketing and copywriting, drawing parallels between mid-20th-century direct response tactics and today’s digital optimization:
“So much of digital marketing today has to do with headlines, subject lines, hooking people. And that is not something that’s new.” (Tim Matthews, 17:52)
7. Timeless Lessons from Classic Marketing
Timestamps: 18:50–22:03
- Early direct marketers eagerly split-tested headlines, calls-to-action, and offers—much as modern digital marketers do, but at a much slower pace. Matthews encourages learning from these pioneers.
- He lauds tools like Crazy Egg and Hotjar for providing data on user behavior, paralleling the careful customer analysis of classic direct mailers:
“It’s really cool now that you can use these tools to watch customer behavior. And then if you talk to your customers, you can find out what was it that was said that really intrigued them.” (Tim Matthews, 21:10)
8. “The Professional Marketer”: Book Origins & Purpose
Timestamps: 22:03–26:02
- Inspired by gaps in marketing knowledge among new leaders and by “The Professional Chef” (a chef’s reference handbook), Matthews wrote “The Professional Marketer” to be a practical A-to-Z reference.
- The book teaches fundamentals, not trends:
“I can teach you the fundamental concepts, the four Ps for example, that will allow you to then put them together in a way that makes sense for your business.” (Tim Matthews, 23:20)
- Matthews intentionally avoids over-focusing on fleeting tools, pointing out that while context changes, enduring concepts like strong ad copy are always key.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the Four Ps:
“It’s the best framework I’ve ever seen for how you think about marketing writ large.” (Tim Matthews, 02:45) -
On Startup Marketing Myths:
“I kind of want to debunk this concept that it’s all about just building a great software product… and I don’t need marketing, which has never been the case for any kind of product.” (Tim Matthews, 04:50) -
On Staying Focused:
“Don’t be led by the shiny new object just because somebody else is doing it.” (Tim Matthews, 06:06) -
On CRO Discovery:
“We changed the words ‘talk to sales’ to ‘getquote’... over 200% increase… people responded well because that’s what they wanted.” (Tim Matthews, 12:15) -
On Classic Lessons:
“There’s a lot to be learned from the guys who in the 50s, 60s were really pioneering the concept of direct marketing. And we have it so easy now because we can get almost instant feedback.” (Tim Matthews, 19:22)
Resources and Where to Find Tim Matthews
- Matthews’ blog, book, and talks: Matthews on Marketing (26:08)
- Tools mentioned: Optimizely, Conversion XL, Unbounce, Crazy Egg, Hotjar
Takeaways for Listeners
- Think in terms of all four Ps, not just promotion; use the best lever for your context.
- Cut through marketing hype—great brands may not “advertise” but still work hard at marketing.
- Blend traditional and digital approaches, but always let the customer’s actual behaviors guide you.
- Always measure impact, leveraging modern analytics tools to combine creativity with proof.
- Build your skillset in both creative messaging and analytical optimization.
- Fundamental marketing principles remain constant, even as tools and trends change.