#NotesToStrangers - An interview with Street Artist, Andy Leek

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Digital Marketing Podcast

Hosts: Daniel Rowles & Ciaran Rogers
Episode: #NotesToStrangers – An Interview with Street Artist Andy Leek
Date: March 26, 2018
Guest: Andy Leek (Street Artist, creator of #NotesToStrangers)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ciaran Rogers interviews street artist Andy Leek, known for his vibrant, handwritten “Notes to Strangers” art project seen across London and on Instagram. The discussion dives into Andy's transition from a corporate advertising career to becoming a full-time artist, the origins and philosophy behind the Notes to Strangers project, lessons on branding and community, and the interplay of risk, authenticity, and passion in both the art world and marketing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Andy Leek’s Background and the Birth of “Notes to Strangers”

• Andy spent eight years in advertising until being fired due to burnout and mental health struggles.
• He realized that creativity and making art kept him healthy and happy.
• The only time he could dedicate to art was during his commute, where he noticed how “miserable” everyone looked (01:10).
• He began writing uplifting or thought-provoking notes and leaving them in the Metro newspaper or in public spaces for strangers to find.

Quote:
"If I can make a difference to one person every day, then that could feel good, because when you help people, it makes you feel good yourself." – Andy (02:54)

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2. Evolution of the Project/Branding and Social Media

• The project began as "Metro Notes," later organically morphing into “Notes to Strangers” through audience feedback (03:38–04:00).
• The hashtag and Instagram presence grew when Andy started putting up public posters and inviting the public to photograph and share them (05:38–08:16).
• Most of the photos on Andy's Instagram are taken and uploaded by other people, giving the audience co-authorship and a sense of collaboration (08:16–09:41).

Quote:
“If no one takes pictures of my work, the project stops. It doesn’t work.” – Andy (10:31)

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3. Community, Feedback, and Gamification

• Public involvement became a key filter for quality: if a note was good, it was shared; if not, it faded away (10:42–11:08).
• The process is likened to “Pokemon Go,” where finding and sharing a note became a fun, city-wide activity (08:22–09:41).
• The project thrives on genuine public participation, something Andy contrasts with forced “engagement” in brand marketing.

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4. Artistry, Authenticity and Vulnerability

• Andy never expected his handwritten notes to resonate widely, especially given his history with dyslexia (14:27–15:40).
• The imperfections, color, and handwriting are intentional and essential for authenticity and attention (12:18–13:57).

Quote:
“The mistakes actually sometimes add the character… If what I was doing was designed, I don’t know if it’d work.” – Andy (13:18)

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5. Branding, Marketing and Art—Interwoven

• Advertising and branding aren’t separate from art; the most successful artists are also strong brands (16:04–19:44).
• Andy intentionally exposes his thoughts and soul through his work, a vulnerability necessary for resonance and reach.

Quote:
“If you’ve got the courage to actually share yourself and bare your soul to the world, you’re going to stand out as a brand because you’re going to be unique. And that’s essentially all I’ve done.” – Andy (17:49)

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6. Risk, Fear, and the Curse of Playing Safe

• Andy believes that taking calculated risks is key in both art and business; “playing it safe is a slow death” (24:22–25:31).
• In advertising, fear and the need for short-term wins discourage bold, risky ideas, leading to mediocrity.
• Andy’s personal story emphasizes the reward in risk-taking, sharing how a BBC feature transformed his family’s perception and his own career trajectory (27:27–30:15).

Quote:
“Playing it safe is risky in the long term … because it’s a slow death.” – Andy (24:37)

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7. Passion Projects and the Danger of Calling Them Hobbies

• Andy rejects the term “passion project” for minimizing what can be life-changing commitments.
• He urges listeners not to sideline what they love—these side projects can shape one’s future (37:34–38:49).

Quote:
“The things you do on the side that you do because you love them are the things that are going to change your life.” – Andy (38:04)

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8. Monetizing Art—Staying Authentic

• Andy discusses how his project eventually generated income—through brand collaborations (done only on his terms), art sales, and Shopify (39:02–42:37).
• He refuses any commercial deals that compromise the project’s authenticity or insert brand messages.

Quote:
“If I was going to give up creative say, that’s advertising and I’m not in advertising anymore.” – Andy (42:36)

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9. Scaling, Sustainability, and the Business of Art

• Andy reflects on how an artist's brand differs from a traditional company: you can’t sell or franchise your soul.
• To scale, he needs to retain creative control and find ways to fund larger, more impactful projects (43:22).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On beginnings and impact:
  “I thought, well, if I can make a difference to one person every day, then that could feel good.” (02:54)
• On public participation:
  “Not only does the good feeling spread by you sharing that you’re spreading some positivity, but it also means that my followers feel a part of the project and they feel that because they are.” (09:42)
• On risk in career & creativity:
  “Playing it safe is risky in the long term because it’s a slow death.” (24:37)
• On brand authenticity:
  “It only works if it’s authentic, if it’s genuine… if you want to do something positive, you’ve got to really mean it.” (20:06–20:32)
• On monetizing art:
  “If I was going to give up creative say, that’s advertising and I’m not in advertising anymore.” (42:36)
• On chasing dreams:
  “Should more people do this? …You have to be a bit insane. You have to have that little bit of insanity within you to believe it’s possible.” (30:28)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:49–03:32: Andy’s background, commute, and discovery that art was necessary for mental health
• 03:38–08:16: Origins of the project, naming, social media, and evolution
• 08:16–11:08: Gamification, community participation, public co-authorship
• 12:08–13:57: Use of color, imperfection, and authenticity in the work
• 14:27–15:40: Surprise at the success of handwriting and words despite dyslexia
• 16:04–19:44: Intersection of branding, marketing, and art
• 24:17–25:31: Philosophy on risk, business, and creativity
• 27:27–30:15: Impact moments, family acceptance, and breakthrough with the BBC
• 37:34–38:49: The power (and mislabel) of “passion projects”
• 39:02–43:22: Monetizing the project while keeping artistic integrity
• 44:44–46:43: Law enforcement run-ins and reflections on the future

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Conclusion

Andy Leek’s journey from advertising executive to the creator of #NotesToStrangers is an inspiring blueprint in blending art, authenticity, branding, and audience engagement. His insistence on public involvement, risk-taking, and creative control offers lessons not only for artists but for anyone seeking to build a brand or pursue a passion. At the heart of the episode is the message: vulnerability, authenticity, and the courage to act on your dreams—no matter how “weird”—can spark both personal fulfillment and significant impact.

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For more, follow Andy on Instagram: @NotesToStrangers
For business or commissions: Email linked via his Instagram profile.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Digital Marketing Podcast brought to you by targetinternet.com hello and welcome back to the Digital Marketing Podcast. My name is Kieran Rogers and today, listeners, you join us when we're in a different space. Today we're actually at the Tate Modern and I'm very excited because we have with us a special guest. I'd like you all to meet Andy Leake. And Andy, how would you describe your work? Because I. I think you. Well, it's interesting what you do. It sort of straddles kind of marketing and, and artistry in the same space, really. So just share with the listeners who you are and what you do.

[B]

Yeah, well, I say also, I also wander into the sort of self help territory.

[A]

Absolutely, yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I mean, I'm from an advertising background, so I worked eight years in advertising until the point where I fell out of love with the industry after getting brutally fired from my job. The firing and the end of my affair with advertising came about after pushing myself too far, pushing myself too hard in the role that I was doing, where I was working too long, hearting too much, getting too obsessed with my job and the next pay rise, the next step up in the ladder. And I pushed myself too far and I had a mental health problem, which I had to take a month off work. And then when I came back from that, I realized that a big part of what had gone wrong was that I wasn't creating art. And I've always made art throughout my whole career in the gaps between advertising campaigns, which there are plenty of. And I realised that actually making and creating is a big part of what keeps me healthy and keeps me straight and narrow. So when I came back from the problem, I realized that I need to make art, otherwise things go wrong. So the only time I had to make art was my commute. My commute at the time was an hour and a half each way, which is quite a hefty one considerable commute. Yeah. And when something went wrong in the traffic, it could be longer than that because there was a bus ride involved. So I realized that's the time I had, that's what I had to work with to make art. In London, you look around at the commuters and you just see miserable faces because the commute's pretty brutal.

[A]

You really do. And even on the way here today, I saw plenty of miserable faces.

[B]

Even not the commute, just the tube itself can make it all miserable. So I thought, I'm obviously not the only person here in London struggling sometimes with feeling okay, so I just started, I thought, well, if I can make a difference to one person every day, then that could feel good, because when you help people, it makes you feel good yourself. So that's when I started putting notes in copies of the Metro and leaving them on seats for people to find. From the moment I came back from my sabbatical, my mental health break, till the point I was five, was about six months. In those six months, I left free notes every day. I carried that on for about, I'd say about eight or nine months overall of just putting notes in the newspaper without any kind of feedback.

[A]

So what sort of notes were these? Obviously this is an audio podcast.

[B]

We need to describe them to people. If you haven't seen Andy's minutes, it's anything from something a little bit silly, something stupid that might make someone smile, to advice about ways of thinking. So, I mean, the very first note I ever did was give this to someone you think is amazing. I just thought that was interesting, someone reading their new Metro and finding that and then thinking, oh, right, so I've got to give. Got to go and give this to someone who they think is good or amazing and then that's going to stop you in your tracks, or I thought it would do anyway, stop you in tracks and think about it and then you've got to pass that on to someone else. That was the first one ever. And then it went from everything from talking about dogs and food and sex and drugs to everything.

[A]

Your work has covered everything.

[B]

Yeah, I think.

[A]

I mean, right from the beginning, when you first started doing it, did you always use the hashtag notes to stream?

[B]

I mean, I think the first thing I called it was Metro notes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The first few posts, because it was in the Metro, it was actually a little bit of a reaction against the Metro as well, because I used to find the Metro made me miserable on the way to work because it was just so negative news can do that.

[A]

I find that I stopped listening to the radio on the way to work because it's just too full of grumpy men and women going on about grumpy things.

[B]

Well, it's easier to be negative than it is to be positive. And scare and fear is sales makes money. So I just. It was a bit of reaction against the Metro, as in, I used to read it and just. It was just bad news, bad news, bad news, horror story, horror story. So I like the idea of putting something positive in amongst all that. And if you look at the very first ever ones, I used to pick out a really Bad news story. And put my note on top of it, Right? Okay. In the background, you can see something awful, and then on top of it is me writing about squirrels or something.

[A]

So where did the notes to strangers hashtag and Instagram come into the mix?

[B]

I was just using it to document it myself, and I think the hashtag kind of found its own way. Whenever I started a project and don't quite know what to name it, I get it through feedback. So I put it on my Facebook, put it on my Instagram, put it on my Twitter, and people just started responding, going, oh, I love your Metro Notes. Okay, Metro Notes is an interesting name. I love the notes, the stranger notes. And then it just evolves and then suddenly you have notes to strangers and it's like, oh, that's the name. It kind of finds itself. But the hashtag. The hashtag. And when the Instagram really took off is after I've been fired from my job and made a decision to pursue a career as an artist rather than advertising. It gave me a lot more time to think about how to approach things. I was in between another project, so I was doing a series of portraits where I was using my Mac as a reference to paint from, and my Mac was broken, so I had to send it to the Apple Store to get fixed. And I had a week until my Mac came back. So I couldn't work on the paintings for a week. So I was like, oh, what do I do? And I knew that the notes, the Instagram, it was about a thousand followers at that point, going very slowly. I was getting nice little bits of feedback here and there. But I always thought, well, I think some of the messages are quite good, but perhaps they're not reaching enough people. So that's when I went out one night and stuck up maybe seven or eight posters with the message. And then underneath it, Instagram notes to strangers. And then the morning after, I mean, to stop. That was a rush in itself because it was like going out and doing breaking the law a little bit, doing something illegal. And I used to go out with sort of baseball cap, hoodie, hiding from cameras and stuff in the middle of the night as well, like 2 or 3 in the morning. And it was an adventure. It was like a little adventure every night. But anyway, the first time I did it in the morning, someone uploaded a picture of it of one of my posters, because I couldn't take a picture myself because it was dark, right? So I was going to plan to go back the next day and take pictures myself. But before I could do that. Someone else took a picture and uploaded it and hashtag. So I searched the hashtag. I think they have actually commented to me on it. And that's when I was like, oh, that's interesting. I like that this person's just become my photographer and he's shared it on his Instagram. So sharing something on Instagram is quite a big thing. It's quite like a reflection of your own personality. And that's when I just thought, well, he's actually collaborated with me. This stranger has just collaborated with me. And then that's when it became. I left it for other people to find the nights and take a picture themselves. And that's when I reshare it on my account.

[A]

Right. So most of the ones that you have, they're taken by other people.

[B]

All of them.

[A]

Wow. I never realized that.

[B]

Yeah, it kind of turns it. I look back at some of the things that I was influenced by, I think subconsciously. And it's only when you look back you realize it. But Pokemon Go, I was in Dusseldorf before I put the posters up, and there was two things in Dusteldorf that I think influenced it. One was Pokemon Go. And that was. It was crazy over there. Like everyone was going mad for it. So people told me that Knights of Strangers is kind of a little bit like that because you're walking around the city and you might see one, and if you're the first one to take a picture, you're gonna get onto my feed. And it's like a little game. So it gamified it. But also, when I was in Germany, electrical boxes in Germany used for poster space. So they sell them as advertising space. I came back to London, I looked around at all these electrical boxes, and they're all completely blank. Well, there's my spot. I don't feel like I'm doing any damage to anyone's personal property with those. They're blank as they are, so I just claimed them and yeah, those two things. So the electrical boxes in Germany in Pokemon Go, I think, really influenced subconsciously. I didn't realize it until recently, but it made a difference. The collaborations with the strangers, it also gives away a little bit of the project to everyone who's ever taken a picture and made it onto myself.

[A]

You can be a part of it, right?

[B]

Yeah. So it's possible for people to be a part of it. And I really like that. Not only does the good feeling spread by you sharing that you're spreading some positivity, but it also means that my followers feel A part of the project and they feel that because they are. It's like so many times you hear in agencies and briefs about involving people in what you do and it's always an uphill task for a brand because people don't want to be involved in advertising all the time. But with what I'm doing, people love to be involved in and I love them to be involved. And it only works. That kind of thing only works when it's genuine, I think, when people are genuinely involved in it and I actually rely on them. So if no one takes pictures of my work, the project stops. It doesn't work.

[A]

So, I mean, do all the notes get found or are there notes that just go stray?

[B]

There's notes that go stray. I think there's notes that get taken down before they can be found. There's notes that last for ages without anyone finding them. I think to start with, it was quite nice because it was a filter. It was a filter of quality for me. So it's quality control. If the notes were good, then people were going to take pictures and share them. If they weren't, they were going to be left until the street cleaners take them down.

[A]

What a fantastic way of getting feedback.

[B]

On your own campaign. So I didn't mind that some of them didn't make it because I've got a million of them anyway. I can just write. There'll never be an end to what I can write because I'm always learning. So I just put what I've learned into them. But, yeah, there are some out there still, I think that either never, never got spotted and got taken down or are still up and haven't waiting to be found. Yeah, sometimes it takes months.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then the crazy thing is sometimes it takes months. And then recently, one that took a few months to get noticed went crazy on my Instagram as one of the most popular ones ever. Really can't remember exactly which one that was. I think it was, was try to be happy now the future doesn't exist yet. And that was up for months before anyone uploaded it. And then someone uploaded it. I was like, have I not shared that one? I looked through my feed, I hadn't. I put it on. That became one of the most popular ones ever. So, yeah, the people walking around, walking past them, never, never noticing them sometimes that's all right, it's all good.

[A]

That is really, really interesting. One thing I wanted to ask you is, is there any relevance with. With the color because they're on sort of luminous post it note Style posters.

[B]

The color, the color is purely practical.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the color is just to capture the eye and just colors that I like. I really like bright colors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it evolved. That evolved as well. They started that black and white and I went to wrapping paper, so some of them had patterns. And now I want stickers, which I, I completely control the color of. I just like the bright colors and then I like the way that it looks on Instagram when it comes through. But the message has no correlation to the color whatsoever. It's just purely practical, as in, I want to catch people's eyes.

[A]

So when you go out, do you have an idea of what you're gonna, what you're gonna do, or do you sort of stick it up and create it? Or are they created in advance?

[B]

If you stick it up in advance?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I'd write advance. Tend to write the night before. So I've got enough. I've got like an overnight test.

[A]

And they're not always perfect. So sometimes in some of them I can see you've kind of changed or gone slightly wrong.

[B]

Yeah, I just, I mean, the thing I love about it is there's no rules. So if I make a mistake, I mean, these, these, these stickers cost me £2 each, right. So if I make a mistake, I can either throw it away or I can just scribble it out and write something over the top of it. And people. It's one of those bizarre things that the mistakes actually sometimes add the character.

[A]

Do you know what? They help it stand out a bit more. Because when things are perfect almost.

[B]

Well, I mean, I think that if what I was doing was designed, I don't know if it'd work. I think that the handwriting is a big part of it as well.

[A]

It's a big part of it. I'm. I don't know, I spent probably way too long thinking about this because we organized this catch up a couple of weeks ago. But, you know, I love, I think one of your notes was sort of talking about words being. Being art. And actually that's a big part of it helped me to understand what, what you do in that you do sort of paint with words in many respects. But also there's a lot of emotion in there as well. But, you know, that's embedded into, to the words and how they're constructed.

[B]

Well, I mean, if, if. When I, when I first joined, when I started advertising and if you spoke to me about this when I was at school, there's no way in a million years I would have Believed you that writing would be the thing that caught on from, from what I do because I'm dyslexic, right? And when I was at school, I used to find it really difficult and had no confidence in my writing because of my dyslexia. So my handwriting used to get me in trouble, which is that one.

[A]

You and me both.

[B]

And then my first love in art was painting, so that was the first thing that I ever did that I had a talent for. And someone told me an art teacher pulled me aside and showed me my painting and said, your paintings? Because I finished it and it was different and I could see it was different from everyone else's and I thought that meant it was bad. He told me, no, it's different because it's better. Look at everyone else's. They've all followed this thing, you've done your own thing and it looks like this. So I never expected words to be what caught on in the way that they have. I mean, all my other art projects, there's words involved in them, but a lot of them have nothing to do with that.

[A]

So you come from advertising and marketing background. You know, that was the day job for, for many years you've done guys, if you not hooked out Andy's earlier work. But in advertising, you show. I really enjoyed the film series you did for Comedy Central, which are very, very funny short clips. Do you see yourself as a marketer or an artist? First of all, this is a bit of a several part question.

[B]

Yeah, well, I think, I think that when I, when I launched into and just said to myself, right, there's people that have forged careers and lived a whole life just making art and making money from it, so why can't I. It took me a while to figure out that marketing and branding and art are kind of all wrapped up together. So my background in advertising, eight years of sitting down every day and coming up with lines and coming up with strategy and branding and ideas is actually the perfect training for, for being an artist. Because if you look at all the biggest, most successful artists, they're all great at branding too. You realise that branding is actually embedded in what you do because without it, you don't have the reach, you don't have the audience and your work just will go unnoticed and it can be brilliant, but if it's not noticed, then it's pointless.

[A]

So, I mean, I'm fascinated with how your brand kind of grew up and that's really the story you've just shared with us. And it is a brand you know, it's a very distinct identity that you've, that you've created. And it's not, it's not, obviously you create the work, but then it's, it's fascinating to me that the, your audience are participating in it and they're a huge part of that. And that's, for me, that's the sweet spot on branding. That's the whole point, really. It's something that lots of people can identify with and kind of feel how. I mean, just share with us kind of what have been your successes in creating that as a brand. I know it wasn't necessarily your intention to begin with. Just explore that brand that you've created because you've got how many followers on Instagram now?

[B]

It's 70, 71, 71,000. I think that's when, I mean, looking back at my advertising career, whenever I was coming up with an idea for a brand, you have to get under the skin of that brand. You have to learn what makes that brand unique to be able to make it stand out. And the theory is that every. I mean, it's not quite true with companies, but with people, everybody's unique, so everybody's completely unique. So all it was a case of was sharing myself, sharing my personality in an unfiltered way, in an honest way with the world. And by doing that, because I'm unique, you're unique. Everybody listening is unique. If you've got the courage to actually share yourself and pay your soul to the world, you're going to stand out as a brand because you're going to be unique. And that's essentially all I've done. And I think people might think that art can be easy, and I describe it as 15 jobs at once. And that's just the logistics, that's just the logistical side of things. You've got to be everything. You've got to be doing everything from production to strategy to client relationship to sales to the actual craft itself. But the hardest thing about it is that you are just exposing yourself, completely vulnerable to the world. You're showing your soul and you're saying to the world, here it is. And then it's up to the world to respond. So, yes, branding, I think branding can be a dirty word, especially if you're talking to, within the art world. But it's just a part of life. You can't avoid it. It's. If you, if you, if you try and avoid it, you can't.

[A]

Anyway, I, I can't think of one major successful artist that isn't.

[B]

Isn't a brand. I mean, yeah, you know, we're here.

[A]

At the Tate Modern, we're surrounded by them. We've got a Picasso exhibition coming up. They've just done. The Digliani artist becomes the. The shorthand for a whole back catalog of work.

[B]

And it's also the value that you put on the price of the work is the value of the artist's brand. But I think that just like with, just like with businesses and with companies, it only works if it's authentic, if it's. If it's genuine. And the thing about, I mean, the thing about notes to strangers is that it wouldn't work if I didn't genuinely want to try and make a difference to people's days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think about the tortoise about this and there's a. There's a scene in Harry Potter where he's. His godfather's just been killed and he throws a curse at one of the baddies and Voldemort comes in and goes, you've got to mean it, Harry. I think about that, like, if you want to do something positive and, and you want to actually make a difference, you've got to really mean it. Because if you don't, then people see through it really fast. People are really, really smart.

[A]

People have really strong built in bullshit detectives and they spot insincerity a mile off of things like that.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

So I'm finding it interesting to try and tread the line between building my brand as an artist, but also speaking openly about me building my brand as an artist, because it is something that's conscious. I think it's ingrained in me from my training, but absolutely.

[A]

So, I mean, where do you get your ideas from? Where do you seek inspiration? Well, there's.

[B]

Everywhere is the first answer. Absolutely everywhere. So everywhere from conversations to books to films to the news to sporting events to. It could be. It could be a moment in a shop. So there was like a moment in the shop where a lady. There's two ladies in front of me and one of them dropped something on the floor. I think it was. I think it was like a card. It wasn't like an important card. And the other lady in front of me, who was just behind her, stopped her and gave her the card and she said, oh, thank you so much. And I saw the lady lady's face and she was so happy. She was buzzing off having helped that other lady in a really small way. And that becomes a note. So that goes from me seeing that happen to helping people get you high? Because it does. It's like, it gives you a little buzz. But apart from that, I mean, there's inspiration for. Inspiration for the individual notes. But then, like, I talked to, the only person I really talk to about is my brother, because he's a fan as well. But I take a lot of inspiration from mixed martial arts, the world of ufc, because one of my best friends at university was a fighter and he, when he was. When he started, he'd only gone a few months and he asked me to train with him and I joined him and we trained together for a bit. And I was awful, and he was awful as well. And I remember thinking, well, this is never going to go anywhere if you follow this through, you're going to be in a cage in your underwear, fighting in front of 5,000 people, and you can get beat up really badly. So I never really took it seriously, but my friend did, and he went all the way up to British champion, and then he had a fight with a fighter called Conor McGregor, who everyone will know now, and he lost. But having watched my friend Dave go from in his garage holding pads really awkwardly all the way through to fighting Conor McGregor, I then followed Conor McGregor's career. And I've seen how he's created his meteoric rise. And I take a lot of inspiration from the way that he is and the way that he handles things, because he leapfrogged everybody through his talking and through his risk taking and through his actions. And that's kind of my plan. That's how I approach. That's how I'm approaching the art world. I don't want to go in and work my way up applying to this competition, going to this small thing. Going, doing this small thing, doing that small thing. I want to try and leapfrog and get right to the top as fast as possible.

[A]

You can see that in your notes to strangers. A lot of encouraging people to take risks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just explain for us your philosophy on risk.

[B]

Risk taking. The risk taking.

[A]

Because I think it's interesting if you're like a lot of brands, just play it safe all the time.

[B]

That's a risk in itself.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So playing it safe is risky in the long term.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's a slow death.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I think that one of the most frustrating things about my time in the advertising industry was the fear of risk. And you just, you know that instead of taking one big risk, a calculated risk that can make a difference, the risks that can actually make a difference are very, very rare, rarely taken, and you actually Just go for the short term. Why do a big brand exercise when you can do a product ad that's going to shift X amount of whiskey bottles in the next week, but that is just short term and you're just constantly papering over the cracks. So I just view risks as part of life and they're inevitable. And as long as it's not a risk that ever risks your life, what have you got to lose?

[A]

Really interesting is I was chatting to one of our guests we've just had on recently called Philip's Story, and he was saying that fear. This wasn't actually in the recording, but.

[B]

He was saying to me beforehand that.

[A]

Fear is one of the most useless of human emotions because actually, unless it's.

[B]

Life or death, you shouldn't really be scared. Exactly.

[A]

It just kind of holds you back.

[B]

No, I think that the root of it is ultimately the capitalist in capitalist system because we. The fear is if I do a campaign that's going to ruffle some feathers that might be controversial and might not land the way we want it to, I could get fired. And then how do I get another job? I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got repayments on my car. That's ultimately where the fear is. And it's everybody looking out for their own interests, a lot of it. Whereas the people that actually make a difference and the people that actually live the really interesting, exciting lives are the ones that. That aren't afraid to take those risks and aren't afraid to do things that could get you in trouble or to do things that could get you fired. And ultimately it comes down to how much you want to live your life. If you want to live as exciting and as interesting as possible and get to your funeral with a gazillion stories to tell, then you've got to take risks of. Otherwise you're going to be. It's not going to be as successful, it's not going to be as fun. And ultimately that's what it's about for me. It's all about trying to have fun.

[A]

Well, you wouldn't have been on this amazing journey that you've been over the last few years without taking some of those risks, right?

[B]

No, no, not at all.

[A]

So what have been some of the highlights for you in terms of the journey that you've been on with this?

[B]

It's interesting. It's really difficult to look back because I feel like I'm still on this ride. So I'm still hurtling towards whatever it is I'm hurtling Towards so difficult to stop and look back. But I mean, highlights. I think there was a moment when the BBC featured, when the BBC featured my work and it was completely by accident that I was at home. But when I told my dad that I was leaving advertising to become an artist, he was very, very skeptical and he's very risk averse. I mean, I don't know if he's risk averse. Maybe it's just that I'm so risk, I'm so risk taking that he seems risk averse compared to me. But anyway, he was very anti that plan and anti me doing that because he knew that I was turning my back on good salaries and a couple career that I built over eight years. And then when the BBC news broke, I happened to be at home. So in the morning I took my phone and said to my dad, well this is the BBC thing, look, we watched it together and it was, I was like, that's the BBC website. So that's like a million people watching that right now. That was a moment. And then I think from that point onwards he's come around to the idea and now, I mean he's always been supportive but it was always that, oh, you've got to keep your contacts warm, got to keep your backup plan ready. And I'm like, if I'm focusing on a backup plan, I'm not focusing on going forward. And that's just energy directed away from where I need to be going. So that was a really, really nice moment because it wasn't like, ha, I told you so. It was, I do know what I'm doing, I'm gonna make this work. And it was a moment where it felt like it was coming true because for so long, for so long it didn't feel like that at all. It's just me and my will keeping it going and my sheer bloody mindedness to refuse to take jobs which started to come, offers started to come in very, very lucrative offers because of course it felt like I got rejected by the advertising industry when I got fired because of, because they thought I was weird, I was pushing too hard, taking too many risks and then I started making art and those art projects started getting in the news and then the advertising industry suddenly is all over me, of course and it took a major job offer and saying no to it to really spare me on because I realised upon saying no that I have to really go for this now otherwise that will be a mistake. So it's either it was in my hands to make to prove whether that was me saying no to that job was a mistake or a moment to a launchpad moment, A moment where it really did get serious.

[A]

You're a living proponent of taking your dreams more seriously. I've seen that in a lot of your work. Should more people do this and what's the potential outcome for our listeners if they do start acting upon their dreams?

[B]

Well, I'm dangerous. I always say I'm a dangerous person to talk to for anybody in a job because I'm going to tell them to quit. And people speak for me too long and they start going, what can I do? What can my escape plan be? To a more meaningful, happier place, happier, less stressed, more exciting day to day existence. I think that, I mean it's impossible for everybody to do it because you have to be a bit insane. You have to have that like little bit of insanity within you to believe it's possible. Because whatever it is, if it's starting a brand from scratch to the point where it's a hundred million pound company, or launching yourself as an artist and trying to make yourself a brand in the art world, like they're really, really difficult, really impossible tasks when you start out. So you kind of need that self belief to the point of insanity. But I think it's better even if you fail. It's better to have tried and to have given it everything because that in itself will make you a happier person and there'll be less. You can look back and go, well, I gave it everything and it didn't work out. And that in itself spins you off on an interesting ride. I mean, one of my best friends, one of my best friends was going nowhere in his retail job. He was an illustration student, I was at university with him. And one day he just had enough. He was working minimum wage, pretty much in his mid-20s. And I was always pushing him to try and do something. And he launched into becoming a sculptor and he really gave it everything and he worked and he was pushing towards his 10,000 hours of where he can master it. And he never fully made it to that point. But that when he started he was living a very, he wasn't very happy. It was clear he was struggling, just getting by highlight of his week was going to the pub with his friends, getting drunk, no girlfriend, no girlfriend on the horizon. Him launching into that sculptor career suddenly gave him purpose and it brought about, it brought the spring back into his step and that spark within his personality. He came back and then we were on the tube one day from central London to Brixton and from Stockwell to Brixton. We were playing hang tough on the. On the rings. You know, the gladiator thing where you try and knock each other off. And then after that, after we'd done that, we sat down and there was a girl sitting opposite us. And I noticed her smiling at my friend Al. So I was like, al, she's smiling at you really loudly. So she was putting some makeup on. So he leant forward and he said, can I have some makeup, too? And she put some makeup on him. And as we were leaving, and I said, al, ask her for a number. And he asked her for a number. Well, he didn't ask, but she just started singing her number to him. And two minutes later they were on the escalator kissing. They're now engaged to be married and have a little girl. But the thing is that when they went on their first date, after their drunken sort of snog and the meeting on that night, he was talking all about his sculpture and his dreams as a sculptor. So even though now he's not doing sculpting, he's way happier than he was because he was just a far more interesting, happy person when he met this lady.

[A]

I think so. I see that all the time. People's dreams, ironically, make them come alive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When they talk about them and shed and you see that, that spark.

[B]

Yeah, the passion comes out.

[A]

Passion, that enthusiasm kind of comes through, is unbeatable and they start to sparkle.

[B]

And it doesn't matter. There is no point of achievement when you're chasing. When you're chasing something, because it's always. Success is never final and failure is never fatal. So it doesn't matter if you. You don't ever get to the point where you set out to get to. It's the trying that makes the difference. It's the striving that is going to change your life, because it really will. You find that you aim for something and you miss a lot of the time. So you might aim to do this or to build this company, but you miss. And it actually gets more interesting when you miss. And you end up on these interesting journeys and tangents.

[A]

It is. But so often we're focused on the end destination, and that's never the point in the life. It gets so much more because you do never get there.

[B]

No, you never get there. You never actually get to that point. Because if you're ambitious, then you've got the curse. Let's talk about this curse of ambition, which is. The curse of ambition is that because you're ambitious when you do achieve something, you're just thinking about what's next and you can never be like completely satisfied. And I think that for me, in the last few months I've really taken time out to enjoy the fruits of my labor a little bit. And that's not for me. That's not like going out and spending lots of money. That's just me reconnecting with just what I do with my art and not focusing on, on bringing in money, not focusing on what's my next step in this plan to sort of hijack the art world. It's not about that. It's been trying to quell my ambition a little bit because otherwise you can get there too fast and you get to the summit of where you've been trying to get to and you realise you haven't met, enjoyed.

[A]

Yeah. If you raced there and just got out of breath and didn't enjoy the.

[B]

View, just trying to enjoy every little step of it, every moment on the way to it and just. It's really simple things for me after having worked in advertising, waking up to an alarm and having to commute, it's just really simple things like not setting an alarm. That's bliss to me. And just spending a few weeks doing nothing other than, than making art and writing and running my Instagram. So I close my shop when I feel like if I don't need the money for I don't need the income, I don't need the capital, then I will close my shop and just focus on making the art because that's why I do it. Everything else is geared around giving me the freedom to create and the freedom to live as happy as, as stress free life as possible. Obviously, obviously there's good stress and bad stress and I am gonna launch into some new crazy stuff pretty soon. I don't know about this yet, but I can feel it. It's on the horizon.

[A]

Great. You've got some really interesting views on passion projects, which very often these are sort of projects that people in business have that aren't earning any money. But that's the thing where my passion is just share those with us.

[B]

Well, I mean, the thing about passion projects is that I don't like them being called passion projects because I think that it makes it sound like your hobby. It makes it sound like a cute little thing you do for your cv when actually the things you do on the side that you do because you love them are the things that are going to change your life.

[A]

They're the things. Right?

[B]

Yeah. You get caught on this sort of wheel of, right, next pay rise, next big client that we win, next big project. You get caught on this sort of wheel, this sort of treadmill, and it's really difficult to get off. And years can go by and never, never have taken. Taken the leap and done something you really, really love and really care about. But it's those things. It's the. It's the silly little idea that you're embarrassed to tell anybody. It's that interest that you have in something that you only tell your very close friends because you don't want people to judge you. It's those weird little things that are gonna spin your life off into the most interesting and rewarding direction, I think.

[A]

And so you now make your living through your art?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So how does that translate into a. Into a business? How can kind of leaving next to strangers translate into a life? I mean, it was lifestyle business.

[B]

It was bizarre. When I started it, no way in a million years would I have believed that I could make any money from it, let alone enough income to live in London.

[A]

And that was never your goal, right?

[B]

No, no, no. And I think that because it wasn't my goal, that's why it's working, because it still is. The actual intention of the project is not. It's not about the money. The money becomes a practical. It's a practical element of it, which means I can do more, I can have more influence. So the bigger the budget I have, the more people I can reach, the more spectacular things I can make. So it becomes a practical element of becoming an artist. But the income started when a brand approached me to take over their windows. So Brown's Fashion approached me and said, we want you to take over our window for Fashion Week and you can do what you want in our windows. And they paid me a commission. So all of a sudden I had a chunk of money from something that I never imagined in a million years would. And then from that, it led to. Started selling stuff on a Shopify account, which is linked to my Instagram. So I started selling stickers. And the first time I ever sold a sticker, I was really, really nervous because I just couldn't believe that anyone would ever pay for my art. And then I went, I put my shop online and I put the stickers on sale. They were 14 pounds each at a time. And I went to the gym. And then I felt a buzz in my pocket about 15 minutes into the gym. And I was just ecstatic. I was, like, bouncing around so happy. I could not believe that A stranger had paid for my work and it evolved from there really. So it started off with stickers and the idea, because I always struggled with the idea of making money from the project because I used to feel like it would infect it and it wouldn't be the purity of it would remain. So originally it was. The idea was people could buy stickers which they could then go stick up wherever they are. And a few people did, but the problem was that people weren't sticking them up, they were just keeping them, putting them on their wall and framing them. So from that I thought, well, if that's what people are doing, then there's no point in me selling the stickers. I'll just sell artwork next to strangers artwork. And then I got a message from someone who wanted to buy a painting from me and then I think I sold. My first painting was 1200 and it was just a canvas painted in one colour with writing on it with the notes to strangers. And it went from there. So Now I sell A4 notes for 60 pounds each through my Shopify and sell bigger posters, paintings. And I'm open, I'm always open minded towards collaborations with brands. That's proving tricky because I've been approached by major, major household names but they've always asked for sponsored posts or for a message, like a co branding thing within my artwork. And I just have to say, say very, very, very early, very quickly. No, because it's an art project and it's not how it works. So the reason it worked with Browns was because they didn't have any input in the content of the notes. So they just gave me the platform and my work next to their shop brought in people to take pictures and it brought in interest and it brought in pr. And I worked with them again and they gave me an exhibit space and that's same sort of thing where they didn't have any creative say over the contents of the notes. Because if I was going to give up creative say, that's advertising and I'm not in advertising anymore.

[A]

Advertising or advertorials, it's just not. It's like trying to mix oil and water, it just doesn't work.

[B]

No, it's an art project that needs to remain. I need to complete creative say over. So it's interesting because brands come up with different approaches and they might try and get around what I say and say, well, what about if we wrote them together? I'm like, well, I've worked in advertising, I know how these things work. It does. It's like in theory, it's great. In practice, it's never going to work.

[A]

I would turn the lights on them. I said, how would you feel about me placing my face inside your logo?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

And watch them, you know, recoil in horror. And that's kind of the sense of same thing, really, isn't it? It's a branding thing.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting challenge. Only when brands figure that out do I start entertaining the idea of working with them. Because Notes is not about me. It's not like when you start a company, you can have a very legitimate goal to build that company to the point where it's worth a lot of money and you sell it to their company. That's fine in the business, because it's business. It's about capital. That's never the case for me as an artist. You can never do that because you can't buy an artist's brand. You can't buy the company. It doesn't work. The artist's creation is the brand itself. So you can't actually. It's not for sale. So I have to figure out a way of scaling up my business and scaling. Scaling up my income to the point where I've got the budget to create the projects, the kind of projects I want to create. Without that, without giving, I can't give, I can't sell. I can't take investment because can't give away any kind of creative control because ultimately, if I was interested in that, I wouldn't be launching into trying to make my name as an artist. I'd be still in advertising, I would be starting an advertising agency. And that's not what I want to do.

[A]

So what do you think's next for you as an artist and your brand?

[B]

I don't know. That's the best thing.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, it's been so interesting chatting to you. We've covered a lot of ground there, but if we want to find out more about you and your work and maybe get in touch and commission something from you, how do we go about it? Where do we go?

[B]

Instagram is a good place because my email's linked up. So if you want to get in touch, it's best. It's best to approach me via email because my direct messages get swamped. So my email is linked up to my Instagram and my shop is linked up to my Instagram. Everything. It's notes to strangers, which it's quite funny. Recently when I did my exhibit, one of the people I was working with, from the brown side of things, Looked at the exhibit, which was 260 notes hanging from the ceiling. Three massive paintings, three posters, a big blurb about me. All of them with Instagram notes of strangers, obviously, because that's my work. She said to me, you haven't got your. You haven't got your. How people are going to find out about you? How are they going to get in touch? It's built in there. So I don't really worry about people being able to get in touch with me.

[A]

You are, I think within about half an hour, me deciding I wanted to get in touch.

[B]

I found a way. Yes, it's pretty easy, which is also why it's pretty easy for the police as well.

[A]

And on that. Have you ever, have you ever had any trouble?

[B]

No. I mean, I've been caught. I've been caught three times. First one was in Paris. I explained the project idea.

[A]

The French police are quite scary.

[B]

They have like guns and dogs. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a van as well. So eight of them got out and surrounded me. They asked me what I was doing and they asked me where my passport was. I said, it's at the hotel. I explained the project and they let me go.

[A]

Right. Okay.

[B]

I just said, take it down. Then in London I got caught and same similar thing. They just said, they explained the project and then they, they just let me go. I think that police are people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what I'm trying to do do, it's going to take a pretty cold hearted policeman to go through all the hassle of arresting me and writing up a report and all that stuff for something fairly minor. I say that touchwood, but.

[A]

Well, look, I wish you the best of luck.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Upcoming projects and I really hope that as a result of this interview somebody gets in touch with something really exciting.

[B]

Always, always open minded. Always. But. But it's not easy. It's a little creative challenge to figure out something that could work. Well.

[A]

Andy, thanks so much for your time.

[B]

No worries. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the digital marketing podcast brought to you by Target Internet. If you're investing in your digital marketing skills, take a look at our free benchmark skills test and look at the wealth of online learning we provide to help marketers get up to speed and stay up to date. Just visit targetinternet.combenchmark.