The Digital Marketing Podcast
Episode: The Meta CMO Interview — Digital Marketing Measurement, AI & Why the Basics Still Matter
Guests: Daniel Rowles, Ciaran Rogers, and Alex Schultz (CMO of Meta)
Date: October 7, 2025
Episode Overview
In this in-depth interview, Daniel Rowles talks with Alex Schultz, Chief Marketing Officer of Meta (Facebook/Instagram’s parent company) and author of the newly released book Click Here. Schultz dives into the foundational principles of digital marketing measurement, why the basics still matter despite constant change, the evolving impact of AI, and the organizational structures that foster marketing success. The discussion is candid, practical, and packed with real-world stories—including surprising personal anecdotes from Schultz's own journey.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Write Click Here? Filling the Knowledge Gap
- Gap in the Market: Schultz recognized the lack of a single, up-to-date, comprehensive book that covers digital marketing measurement at both a strategic and tactical level.
- Defending Marketing: Schultz feels digital marketing is misunderstood and unfairly maligned; his book is a “positive” contribution to highlight marketing’s beneficial impact on business and society.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 03:10):
"Online marketing is good, it grows the economy, and I'm proud of it. And someone needs to say something positive."
2. Back to Basics: Goals vs. Metrics
- Clarity in Measurement: Schultz insists on the vital difference between true business goals and the metrics tracked. Metrics can be gamed if they become the goal.
- Examples:
- Facebook: Goal was connecting the world online; the metric was monthly active users, with strict guardrails to prevent manipulation.
- eBay: Shifted from focusing on confirmed registered users to “activated, confirmed registered users” to encourage real usage, not just empty sign-ups.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 05:18):
"A metric is not a goal... Metric can be gamed. So many people turn a metric into a goal and then the metric doesn't actually do what they want."
3. Incrementality: The True Measure of Impact
- Testing Above All: Schultz stresses the need to measure incrementality through intentional experimentation (holdouts, lift studies, matched market tests, etc.) to isolate the true effect of marketing activities.
- Illustrative Stories:
- Uber discovered $100s of millions of ad spend were wasted when switching off campaigns resulted in no change in conversions.
- By contrast, Facebook’s marketing in India showed a topline impact when halted—proof of genuine impact.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 09:33):
"If Uber at that stage they could turn off the advertising and nothing changed, and in India, we turned off the advertising and Facebook shrank... that's the difference between actually having incremental impact and not."
4. The Marketing Funnel & Getting Enough People to the Start Line
- Importance of Awareness: Schultz asserts that no matter how good your conversion rate is, it’s meaningless if not enough people reach the sales page—highlighting the need to "start with a marketing funnel."
- Virality’s Role: Adds “virality” to the classic funnel as a major driver of awareness in the modern era.
- Anecdote: Internal Facebook story—tweaking placement of contact importer drove a tenfold increase.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 14:07):
"Awareness is a thing. Do it."
5. Conversion Flow Over Creative Brilliance
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 14:43):
"Mediocre marketing with a great conversion flow is way better than brilliant marketing with a broken one."
- Supporting Stories:
- Coinbase’s Superbowl ad created huge interest, but their site crashed, losing all benefits.
- Facebook signup form simplified from five pages to five fields, majorly boosting signups.
6. Channel Selection: Scale, Defensibility, Capabilities
- Strategic Advice: Prioritize channels by their ability to scale, their defensibility (how easily competitors can replicate), and a fit with your team’s abilities.
- Marginal ROI Focus: Allocate budget based on the incremental ("marginal") return from the last dollar spent, not the average ROI—“diminishing returns” curve.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 19:37):
"If you allocate between channels based on the marginal return being the same across every channel, you'll massively move up ROI just by budget allocation."
7. Organizational Structure: Marketing-Engineering Synergy
- Unified Teams Succeed: Marketing teams should work seamlessly with engineering to unlock data-driven, timely campaigns and product-led growth.
- Meta Example: Marketing and engineering/product teams are deeply integrated, encouraging idea exchange and quick execution—contrasting to old siloed models.
- Comms Collaboration: Building real rapport with comms is crucial; Schultz describes transferring Meta's social media function to comms to foster trust.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 22:06):
"Our teams are fully integrated... and we operate as a single unit across engineering and marketing to do growth."
8. AI in Marketing: Disruptive, Inevitable, and Now
- AI Has Already Reshaped Platforms:
- Content delivery on Facebook/Instagram is now dominated by AI-curated content, not just from “connections”.
- Ad targeting and measurement heavily rely on AI due to privacy changes (e.g., Apple ATT).
- AI’s Future in Marketing Falls into Three Buckets:
- Efficiency: Tasks (like creative variants) automated, shifting job realities.
- Making New Things Viable: E.g., AI-driven customer support now possible at scale.
- Unlocking the Impossible: New semantic content understanding and content-based ranking.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 26:10):
"AI is not going to take your job in the near term. Somebody else using AI is going to take your job."
- Historical Perspective: Marketing evolves every 20 years; adaptability is the rule.
9. Personal Stories & Career Takeaways
- Paper Airplane Side Hustle:
- Schultz’s first business was a paper airplane website, which funded his university life—emphasizing the value of experimentation and niche projects.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 31:05):
"For the next 20 years I had the number one paper airplane site on earth. And it made me actually a lot of money... paid for all my accommodation at college and my rowing training camps."
- On Education & Credentials:
- Schultz was open about not always achieving top grades, and highlights that many top performers in his teams didn’t follow “traditional” educational paths.
- Quote (Alex Schultz, 34:29):
"Credentialism isn't that important."
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
-
On Metrics:
"A metric is not a goal... Metric can be gamed."
— Alex Schultz [05:18] -
On Marketing Pride:
"Online marketing is good, it grows the economy, and I'm proud of it."
— Alex Schultz [03:10] -
On Incrementality:
"If Uber at that stage they could turn off the advertising and nothing changed... that's the difference between actually having incremental impact and not."
— Alex Schultz [09:33] -
On Funnels:
"Awareness is a thing. Do it."
— Alex Schultz [14:07] -
On Conversion Flow:
"Mediocre marketing with a great conversion flow is way better than brilliant marketing with a broken one."
— Alex Schultz [14:43] -
On Channel Strategy:
"Allocate budgets on marginal, not average, ROI and fit the channel to the conversion you want."
— Alex Schultz [19:37] -
On Teams:
"Our teams are fully integrated... and we operate as a single unit across engineering and marketing to do growth."
— Alex Schultz [22:06] -
On AI & Jobs:
"AI is not going to take your job in the near term. Somebody else using AI is going to take your job."
— Alex Schultz [26:10] -
On Credentials:
"Credentialism isn't that important."
— Alex Schultz [34:29]
Segment Timestamps
- [00:00] Introduction and Book Background
- [02:19] Why write Click Here?
- [05:12] The difference between goals and metrics
- [08:04] Incrementality and testing with real-life examples
- [11:24] The critical role of marketing funnels and awareness
- [14:43] Conversion flow versus creative ideas
- [16:15] Choosing channels wisely — scale, defensibility, capabilities
- [19:37] Marginal vs. average ROI in budget allocation
- [21:41] Structuring marketing teams & marketing-engineering synergy
- [25:56] Collaborating with comms
- [26:10] The real-world impact and future of AI in marketing
- [31:00] Alex’s paper airplane origin story
- [32:16] Education, credentials, and the value of experimentation
Memorable Moments
- Daniel excitedly notes he will make Click Here mandatory reading for his students—praising its practical depth.
- Alex recounts legendary industry stories (Uber, Facebook India) to show the true impact of marketing done (or not done) right.
- Paper airplanes, a Super Bowl ad with Matthew Vaughan, and openly sharing less-than-perfect personal grades all add color and humility to Schultz’s worldview.
Final Takeaways
This episode is jam-packed with actionable wisdom:
- Core marketing principles endure despite technological change—don’t neglect the basics.
- Incremental impact, not vanity metrics, is what matters for real business value.
- AI is already reshaping marketing, and adaptability—not credentials or titles—will define success.
- Collaboration, especially between marketing, engineering, and comms, is critical for modern growth.
- Experimentation fuels careers, and non-traditional backgrounds can lead to the top.
For further information, links to Alex Schultz's book, and more episodes, visit TargetInternet.com/podcast