The Digital Marketing Podcast

Episode: Tools and Tips Special – Navigating AI Search, Ads & SEO in 2025
Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Ciaran Rogers and Daniel Rowles

Overview

In this “Tips and Tools” special, Ciaran and Daniel dive into the rapidly evolving world of AI-driven search, Google’s latest advertising tools, and the escalating complexity of SEO as we approach 2025. The episode focuses on practical insights and hands-on tools to navigate AI-powered search results, stay competitive in paid advertising, and demystify the turbulent landscape of Generative Engine Optimization (GEO). Alongside lively anecdotes and memorable moments—like AI-generated fonts of vomiting unicorns—the hosts dissect how marketers must adapt, test, and rethink strategies in light of major shifts in user behaviour, Google platform updates, and the surge of AI summarization in search.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Google AI Max: The New Era of Paid Search

(Starts 00:20)

• What Is Google AI Max?
  • Google AI Max, recently moved out of beta, is integrated deep within Google Ads. Contrary to misconceptions, it’s not just a new bidding strategy but an upgrade in how search campaigns tap into “keywordless signals” from across user behaviour.
• Performance Max Evolves:
  • Performance Max campaigns laid the groundwork, aggregating data from across Google’s properties (Search, YouTube, Gmail, etc.) for full-funnel optimization.
  • “The big shift has been the introduction of first of all AI summaries and then AI chat functionality actually within the Google interface.” – Ciaran (03:32)
• Longer, Conversational Searches:
  • User searches are now much longer (8–12 words), more natural, and context-driven.
  • AI Max leverages not just keywords but context—historical user behaviour, search sequences, even YouTube or Gmail activity (with permission).
• Strategic Rollout Advice:
  • Unlike jumping on “separate budgets” for tests, Ciaran recommends integrating AI Max into existing campaigns to maximize data signals.
  • “If you set up something completely separate, you’re sort of slightly on a back foot.” – Ciaran (02:02)
• Challenges and Control:
  • Marketers have less perceived control, and creative assets plus landing pages are now more algorithmically chosen.
  • Apprehension persists: “My terror with that is historical... It would start, find, oh, well, you’re going to rank well for this keyword. And I’m going to send you through to this landing page. And the reality is I’m already ranking for that organically, and it’s not a term that’s going to convert at a high rate.” – Daniel (08:23)
  • Google has improved campaign controls since early Performance Max frustrations.

2. SEO in the AI Search Era

(From 05:35, 14:50, 21:33)

• The Organic Click Crisis:
  • While impressions reach all-time highs (especially for Target Internet), clicks are dipping due to AI-generated answers and “overviews” dominating above-the-fold.
  • “Our impressions are at an all time high... But actually our number of clicks is not... it has dipped in the last six to twelve months.” – Daniel (05:42)
• Lost Control Over Organic Listings:
  • The landscape has shifted from fighting for top organic spots to competing for fleeting AI-overview mentions.
  • “No one's scrolling down... they're getting the answer up top.” – Ciaran (05:36)
• Generative Engine Optimization (GEO):
  • SEO tactics now must account for how LLMs (Large Language Models) consume and reference web data.
  • Surging complexity: “Every time this iterates, it becomes exponentially more complicated.” – Ciaran (14:50)
• Knowledge Graphs & Connections:
  • Google’s entity-based search depends on connections between people, brands, and concepts. The Knowledge Graph Explorer is recommended for sanity-checking how Google contextualizes your brand.
  • “It’s smart, but it’s not clairvoyant. You have to create links, you have to create connections.” – Ciaran (22:58)

3. Featured Tools & Experiments

a. Lab Fun: Google Labs GenType

(11:23 – 12:27)

• AI tool to generate custom fonts from text prompts—ranging from practical to whimsical (“an alphabet made up of vomiting unicorns, but they had to vomit rainbows!” – Ciaran, 12:20).
• Demonstrates the everyday creative power of generative AI for branding or just lighthearted experimentation.

b. LLM Refs: Spotlighting GEO Complexity

(12:42 – 18:16)

• Assesses how specific keywords and brands rank in multiple LLMs (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, etc.).
• Unlike HubSpot’s AI Grader, inputting keywords reveals cross-model brand references, scores, and visibility.
• Caveats: “Where’s the testing to prove this? Where’s the data to back this up?” – Daniel (14:10)
• “That’s just for one phrase. So something we've gone from like one source to like almost a dozen just in one foul leap. And the dust really hasn't settled.” – Ciaran (17:30)
• Caution against “serial summarizers” in senior marketing roles who oversimplify GEO based on webinar soundbites.

c. Google’s Knowledge Graph Explorer

(21:33 – 22:24)

• Helps organizations see what links and relationships Google recognizes—important for making your connections more explicit on your website and about pages.

d. Adzooma: Centralized Ad Management

(24:11 – 24:24)

• Connects multiple ad and analytics platforms (Google Ads, LinkedIn, Google Analytics) for streamlined reporting and control.
• “I've used Adzooma. It's good... It covers a lot of them.” – Ciaran (24:11)

e. NotebookLM: Custom Language Model from Your Data

(24:39 – 25:31)

• Upload documents or transcripts; the system builds an LLM focused only on your provided data.
• Great for content analysis, research, or building “trusted source” news aggregators.
• Daniel used it to upload and mind map the last five podcasts for topic analysis.

f. Nutshell CRM: Affordable, Robust CRM Solution

(25:31 – End)

• CRM praised for clarity, transparent pricing, and reliability—favorable against larger CRM competitors.
• “It is an absolutely excellent tool... much lower cost than a lot of the other CRMs.” – Daniel (25:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:32 | Ciaran | “The big shift has been the introduction of, first of all, AI summaries and then AI chat functionality actually within the Google interface.” | | 05:36 | Ciaran | “No one's scrolling down to where the organic listings are because they're getting the answer up top.” | | 08:06 | Daniel | “Increasingly, you've got...three main slider buttons: expand my keywords to keywordless signals...creative assets... and can we use different landing pages?” | | 12:20 | Ciaran | “The first thing [my daughter] did was she instructed it to create an alphabet made up of vomiting unicorns, but they had to vomit rainbows.” (re: GenType) | | 14:50 | Ciaran | “Every time this iterates, it becomes exponentially more complicated.” | | 16:51 | Ciaran | “Serial summarizers...they're blatantly simplifying ridiculously complicated things.” | | 18:49 | Daniel | “Meta descriptions are the new H1? I then lost the will to live.” | | 22:58 | Ciaran | “It's smart, but it's not clairvoyant. You have to create links, you have to create connections.” | | 25:03 | Daniel | “It will transcribe [podcasts] for you and then you can query them as a whole...it will create a mind map.” |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:20] – Intro and Google AI Max explained
• [04:02] – The revolution in search behaviour (longer, context-driven queries)
• [05:35] – Impact of AI overviews on organic impressions and clicks
• [11:23] – Fun with GenType in Google Labs
• [12:42] – Introduction and analysis of LLM Refs tool
• [14:50] – Exponential SEO complexity and “serial summarizers” rant
• [18:49] – Meta descriptions controversy and SEO myths
• [21:33] – Exploring the Knowledge Graph and making entity links explicit
• [24:11] – Adzooma as a centralized ad platform management tool
• [24:39] – NotebookLM for custom LLMs from your own data
• [25:31] – Quick highlight of Nutshell CRM

Key Takeaways

• AI search, ads, and SEO are evolving at breakneck speed, throwing old best practices into flux.
• Longer, contextual queries and AI overview boxes are fundamentally altering both paid and organic strategy.
• GEO is messy: Marketers need to experiment across multiple models and recognize there’s no “gospel” solution.
• Entity relationships and clarity on your website (Knowledge Graph, schema markup) matter more than ever.
• Don’t fall prey to oversimplification—the tools are new, but complexity is here to stay.

For tools, links, and show notes, visit targetinternet.com/podcast.