A (2:39)

Definitely.

B (2:40)

Agreed. Agreed. Especially Kieran Rogers.

A (2:44)

You know, the really funny thing is Daniel, who, who I do the podcast with, knows nothing about this episode and actually it's gonna freak him out a little bit. Daniel, when you're listening, I'm sorry, but we just couldn't, we couldn't resist it. Yeah, but the very thought of two Kierans, I'm sure will give him nightmares. I'm sure it will.

B (2:59)

Oh, my gosh. And my friends as well.

A (3:02)

All right, good. So tell us a little bit more about your involvement within the advertising world.

B (3:07)

Yeah, absolutely. So I was lucky enough to pretty much out of college, fall into a job at an agency called Mechanics and working on MasterCard. And the campaign at the time, Priceless. The priceless campaign, which has been brought to 190 countries around the world. I mean, it's the most global, most consistent campaign. And I had a really amazing time seeing how a great campaign works and seeing how great creative works, how strategically driven it is, and then just from there, just use that experience that I had on MasterCard to kind of continuously work at places that were not only deemed by ourselves, but by our clients and by the industry at large as sort of creative centers of excellence. You know, working for award winning digital agencies where we were small agency of the year in the US really punching above our weight around 2008, 2009, taking advantage of what earned media and the notion of ideas being media and how powerful creative can be there. Then moving back into larger agencies where I ran a series of packaged goods campaigns and then moving into financial services, but always working and being very lucky enough because in advertising you got to never know the cast of characters you're getting yourself into. But always being able to work with folks that were maybe one or two generations older than I, but who were some of the best in the business, really learning about how to hone the craft of creativity throughout my career and just enjoying that process of making beautiful things, of making impactful things. But going back to sort of my origins on mastercard, making sure they're really grounded in great insights.

A (4:48)

Okay, so we're going to do something a little bit different this time, listeners, because normally this is an audio podcast. But to truly get the best out of this, I think you really need to see some of the examples that Kieran and I are going to be discussing. So we're going to Include links to all the YouTube videos. And I'd really recommend popping along to the Targetinternet.com podcast. Look at the show notes for this episode and watch the videos. So Kieran, which is the first campaign that you wanted to kind of highlight as something we can really learn from, from a creative angle?

B (5:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the one to start with is a campaign that when it first came out had an incredible impact. I mean, it won every award that you can think of and was really nice in the sense that it was able to capture something going on in society that, you know, I personally think was a bit amiss and kind of pull it back to the center. And the campaign I'm talking about is dub Real beauty. It was just wonderful. I mean, those first couple campaigns, you know, the openness that they, the inclusion, all that sort of great stuff was really powerful out of the gate. But as the campaign moved along and it was execution after execution after execution really centered around the same idea, I think they kind of stumbled a bit in one of their more recent iterations. And before I jump into specifically what that was, I want to say that brings up a couple of the key themes of how I think we can talk about and look at creative. And one that is to understand that there's great work that works. We're going to have a couple examples there. There's not great work that still works and it's this interesting sort of thing where, you know, you don't need to win a can lion to move the economic needle. And then there's ideas that seemed great that didn't work. And this dub campaign is an idea that seemed great that didn't work. And the specific execution that, that I want to talk about is one about a series of bottles where they were still trying to.

A (6:46)

It was so cringe where they went and watched this. It's brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

B (6:50)

It's rough stuff. But the bottles have a series of different shapes and those different shapes are really meant coming from a good place of trying to connote all the different body types that a person can have. But it was unfortunately met by the media and also consumers in a way that was not viewed as particularly flattering or open minded. It was more sort of viewed and I'm trying to be as polite as possible as a way of kind of acknowledging somebody as being that they might not necessarily be so comfortable acknowledging.

A (7:24)

From my experience, you know, would I want a tall but fat middle aged sized bottle of shampoo when I'm in the shower? No, I wouldn't but when you watch the video, they've got. I love the pear shape, pear shaped bottle, which is particularly exaggerated, I thought. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, even if you were kind of that shape, this was. It's almost cartoon like in its exaggeration of those kind of features.

B (7:47)

Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, where you see is when they first started out with the campaign, you know, the idea of using models that weren't just these sort of, you know, waifs, as one would expect in the fashion world, was really disruptive, but which was a great idea. But then they really, you know, went a bit left of center and started to get into a place that, you know, that their core audience actually ended up, Kieran, to your point, finding a bit offensive.

A (8:12)

You had another example in there which I thought was great, which was the Volkswagen Love Bug advert, which again is another one that was completely new to me. You have opened my eyes to a whole new world of advert case studies. But so listeners in this advert, you've got to watch it because it is brilliantly off piste. It's a young couple and they've got a Volkswagen Beetle to begin with. And each time you see a steamed up car kind of rocking, should we say romantically in the background, in the next shot you see them with a baby at the car dealership and they're moving up to the next car and each car then is shot kind of rocking somewhere all steamed up. And a few years later they've all kind of got more, more and more kids as they get bigger and bigger, bigger cars. And it's just, it's just beautifully distasteful. I suppose that was my experience of it anyway. Yeah. What was your take on it?

B (9:10)

You know, so these two examples came from the United States. And the first time I saw the commercial on tv, firstly, I mean, the brief was obvious to the agencies. We've got this range of cars and we want to get each one of these cars. The execution and it's got to be 30 seconds long. So, you know, have at it, creative teams. So to their credit, they did get each one of the cars. You know, if you were to look at the portfolio as you kind of, kind of move up. But I was shocked. In a word, it's pretty, it's pretty dramatic. I mean, don't come a knockin' very.

A (9:43)

Much, very much like that.

B (9:44)

Yeah. Rings true. But you know, it's so funny is that. And this is another example of an idea that seemed great that didn't work. It's very well shot and it's very well art directed. The families themselves, the way they're kind of put together are actually. It's very well done. And also too, the one thing I will say, the closing of the spot, when the father is kind of surrounded by his wife and all of his family and has this nice emotional moment, also seems like a really great close. But you know, at the end of the day, it was really what led up to that and the juxtaposition was just really, really something very much not on brand.

A (10:21)

Okay, so there's a couple of ideas that didn't work. Have we got anything great, in your opinion, that we could share with the audience?

B (10:27)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and then the next one I want to talk about also hits on a really important point in making great work. And again, kind of getting back to this practicality, what a listener can say and if they're to make a checklist, this is really important was the emotional involvement with a story, creating that emotion. And there's a brand. When I sort of reached out to folks in preparation for doing this, I reached out to my buddies in the UK and said, what's some great creative. That's really hitting right now? And folks brought up something that I'm sure is very familiar to all of you, but was actually new to me and that is the John Lewis Christmas adverts. And I'll tell you, I'm a crier, I'm not ashamed to admit it. And. And these were just tugged at the heartstrings in all the great ways that an ad can.

A (11:17)

Oh my gosh, they're a national institution over here. You know, everybody, it's a big part of Christmas is, is waiting for that John Lewis advert to come out. And they actually. Interesting. This year we've had a whole succession of brands that. Doing their own, their own take on it. But yeah, John Lewis is in a different, different class of its. Its own. And what was really interesting for me because I've actually just sort of experienced these each year as they, as they've come out. You sort of put together three different adverts. So you looked over the last three, four years and you can see a real progression as to how it's sort of changing. So there was the Monty, the penguin one, which I think was from 2014, maybe 2015. And then it was the bust of the dog, which had. Those of you that have seen it had all the bouncing animals like wild animals on a trampoline outside up to this year's blockbuster, which is a monster that lives under the bed.

B (12:13)

And I think what's so great about this campaign is that the Monty the Penguin actually won a Cannes lion, which is in the advertising world, the highest creative honor that you can receive, which is great. But again, in the theme of what we're trying to talk about here, that's a great idea that worked, that really drove commerce. And I think that what John Lewis has hit upon and has continued to understand is that by owning this Christmas moment, by owning this festive season moment, the anticipation that comes, the earned media that they then receive, and then tying that to an economic occasion is a perfect, perfect equation to putting great work and making sure that it's great work that works. Now, I was particularly taken by this year's. Even relative to some of the others, I'm an only child and I have a really active imagination. And so the idea of almost being friends with the monster under the bed and just the idea of the experience that that kid had of, you know, of the imagination of playing to me really brought me back to childhood. And I thought it was really fun. The anticipation of Christmas morning and all of that notwithstanding, just thought it was a really, really powerful and fun to watch. Execution. Again, beautifully done. I mean, the CGI that when the kid has the monster on his back and everything is really, really well considered. Very, very well. Again, beautiful film. But driving back to Commerce Mazthemonster, I think that's a really powerful one. But going back to the principle that it brings to bear is making sure that if brands out there are telling stories, and I think you have to as a brand these days, make sure that you have an emotional component in there and that even tracks through in working with financial services, which seems to and usually seems to be a very emotionless place. But when you can, when you can pull emotion unexpectedly, again, as long as it's relevant so you don't end up like the Dove bottles or appropriate so you don't end up like the Dove bottles, it can have a really powerful way to come through. And another example, and one that's actually not in the US or UK but actually happened in India, it's a great spot for a laundry brand called Ariel. And what this pushed up against and where again I thought it was just really and pulls people in, is the idea that laundry chores in general are only a woman's purview. Now I'm a more modern man and I think that everyone needs to pull their weight in the house. For example, I'm the one who does all the cooking. I do a lot of the laundry and I'm the vacuumer. And I think in a different generation, that just wouldn't be. And so as kind of economic equality and growth has hit India, what we're seeing is a lot more women involved in the workforce. And that is exactly what Ariel hits upon, where they tell this amazing story about actually how the role that a mother has to play in this day and age and the struggle of really having those two jobs now. It is so cool that they were able to do that. I mean, to push up against tradition and to align with a new generation of users. And that's what's so important here.

A (15:37)

They do it in a really clever way that, again, I'm not. Not seen that advert before. That was a new one on me. But I think the clever way that they've done it is they do it through a father writing a letter to his daughter. And it's, you know, I mean, I didn't actually understand anything of what he was saying. This is the brilliant thing about it. But I was able to pick up on the emotion and the general gist of the story. So the message came through loud and clear. It didn't matter that I didn't understand the words. It was very clear what was, what was going on. And I think that kind of father speaking to his daughter and his voice is so filled with love and pride for his daughter. And those two words come through, actually, regarding. They translate really, really well.

B (16:20)

And, you know, and that sort of idea of intergenerational interaction is a classic way to drive emotion because, you know, it's very easy to see yourself in either place, either one of those, or in many cases, both at the same time. But what I think is so powerful, the ad itself is it drives back to a usage occasion and it puts you in a place where, you know, you know where the brand stands, you know how it's used. And that to me, at the end of the day, you know, we can go out and we can make the most beautiful, amazing ads of all time, but if it's not driving commerce, we're not doing our jobs.

A (16:57)

Good. Now we've got to get on to the most interesting man, because I've never come across this before and I really want your take on it. So for those of you that haven't come across this ad, go to the Show Notes and watch this. This ad, I've actually pulled together someone to put a compilation up onto YouTube of all of these adverts. They're Actually beer adverts. But he's just. He's just a legend, isn't he? He's really, really good. How do you think this ad works?

B (17:21)

So, yeah, so it's a great example, not dissimilar to MasterCard, of a truly elastic idea, you know, and that's. And that's something else that, you know, I think that when you. When you look towards creativity, when you look towards being, you know, a brand that's going to be able to have some longevity, you need elasticity to an ide. The most interesting man was very much that. So the origin of the campaign is pretty simple. Dos Equis was considered to be the second, third Mexican beer. And in the United States, we tend to kind of break our beers down almost geographically to some extent. And there's, of course, Corona, which is the market leader, and Dos Equis, which until this campaign came along, was barely in the consideration set. So the agency got, and I was actually lucky enough to work with the folks that came up with this campaign and worked a couple executions and a couple iterations on the more digital side. But the real point here is they needed something to capture people's attention. It was strictly an awareness play. And what they wanted to do was they wanted to acknowledge honesty of their place in the category. A Mexican beer is not going to be your first choice, certainly for somebody in the United States, you're going to go to something like Budweiser or Bud Light, one of the sort of more classic, like, you know, buy and buy that. We have 30 packs. Buy and buy the 30 pack type, type situation. But what Dos Equis was able to do was to acknowledge their place in the category. And each ad closes with, I don't always drink beer, but when I do, it's Dos Equis. So they're acknowledging that people are going to be going out. You can have all these other cocktails. We're not saying just drink beer, but when you drink beer, think about us. The most interesting man was this amazing character that was created by some great folks at an agency now called Havas. Back at the time, it was called Hero rscg. And it was a character who has lived this unbelievable life. He's done these unbelievable things played out to hyperbole like none other. But the important part is the way the story is told and shown. I mean, they put this guy in some of the wackiest situations with some of the favorite ones that I've seen are him. He's riding around on a horse in a ballroom. Surrounded by, you know, kind of a 1930s, 1940s like scene of crazy diplomats and all sorts of wild costumes. And he's on top of a horse waving a whip. You know, there are other times where he has a cougar as a pet. There are, you know, other times where you know, just all of these things you gotta watch.

A (19:55)

It's absolutely amazing the statements that they would come out with. So a man whose personality is so magnetic he can't carry credit cards. My favorite, I think was the fact that, that he carries a donor card and his beard is listed as one of his donatable organs. So good. So, so good. Very, very clever. But the, you know, the whole thing of creating this incredible character which actually any brand could do, and then just. It's the subtlety of the fact that he doesn't always drink beer because of course he's the world's most interesting man. But when he does, this is the brand. And that makes the beer interest interesting, doesn't it? It's kind of like it graphs it off, but very, very clever. Okay, I want to talk about Muc Wopper because this was another one I'd never seen before. Tell us about McWher.

B (20:44)

So McWhopper is a fascinating one because this is actually entirely driven by PR and entirely driven by earned media. And it was Burger King, you know, the perennial second place in the Quick Service Restaurant category behind McDonald's, most of which actually is driven by their real estate portfolio. But they came out with an advertisement for. It all started with them taking out an ad in the New York Times, a full page ad in the New York times that said McDonald's, we want to make a truce with you. We want to make the greatest burger in the world. Taking everything great about a Big Mac and everything great about a Whopper and calling it the MC Whopper. And that is, I mean that is sacrilege in the world of burger communication.

A (21:35)

You found a really great kind of case study video that sort of walks you through the campaign very, very quickly. You can see it had a tremendous response. The fans went mad. Whether they were fans of McDonald's or Burger King. The response that Burger king got from McDonald's was even funnier. I loved the little P.S. next time why don't you just pick up the phone rather than taking out a full page ad? But it's kind of, you realize, actually no, that's not not the point. And they've got everybody body excited. And I love the fact that they really came up with a fun concept and the Website that they released behind this showed what the uniforms of the staff would look like and had a full brand identity for this joint venture. And the clever fact that it was going to be raising money for a good cause as well, which is just brilliant because they had all those assets. Fans really went to town on it and just started running wild with this idea. Well, what, you know, that's amazing. What could it be like? And when McDonald's refused to play their part, it would appear that thousands of people just started making their own McWhirts because it was the only way you were going to get one. So, you know, design your own one. Just brilliant, really. Engagement. And when you have something like that, people can really take hold of an idea and think about it all the time. There's nothing more powerful than that. You know, in the 50s and 60s, they did that with the sort of the, the earworm jingle, didn't they? But actually, actually now we have this on mass community. You can actually do that with engaging people with activities that they can get involved with. Really, really clever.

B (23:03)

Yeah, that's right. And you know, another thing to point out there is the actual branding that was done was done by a really great branding agency. I actually had the pleasure of working with them when we, when we rebranded the Brawny man, which is a famous United States advertising icon for paper towel. It's an agency called Turner Duckworth and they're some of the best, most creative folks out.

A (23:27)

So I've worked with Turner Duckworth when I was at Liz Earl and Bruce. Duckworth is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant guy. Just has a wonderful way of just simplifying otherwise complicated things. And it's the simplicity and the clean execution. They're particularly strong in the kind of the food and drink category. Yeah, brilliant agency.

B (23:47)

Absolutely. And one other thing to bring up with Mick Whopper and you sort of touched on it in this idea of capturing the kind of the popular mind. It's this idea that consumers will give you credit for using media in a very clever way. And there were so many ways that they could have gone out and they could have challenged McDonald's, but the fact that they used a business, ultimately, what is a business publication, to talk directly to the CEO. It really hit the right type of reverberation. And then of course, the tone deafness of the McDonald's CEO's response made it all the better. You know, show the juxtaposition between these two brands.

A (24:30)

I don't know, it is part of me to kind of risk. I could see where he was coming from, and I kind of respected that. I thought the response he gave was probably the only response he could give. But he wasn't in on the game, was he? He wasn't in on what was really going on. And that just added fuel to their fire, really. And actually good on them in a way, because they were doing it for a good, good, good cause. So actually it kind of translates as kind of harmless fun. It's interesting that actually McDonald's would have gotten a lot of free publicity off of this. And it's, it's debatable whether it was good or good or bad, but I don't think it was brand damaging in any way.

B (25:07)

No, no, I don't think so. No. I certainly think McDonald's could have taken more advantage of it and to your point, run with it. And if they would have come up with a MC Whopper, I mean, who knows what kind of world we'd be living in now. But, you know, I think you're right that it definitely couldn't, could have done too much. Too much.

A (25:22)

Y had a great example in there for Cheap Flights. And we had an interview recently with Joshua March from Conversocial talking about great customer service. And he's written a really interesting book called Message Me, which is all about communicating in, you know, in an app driven world with customers. And he had this concept of an easy button that, you know, app driven world, people just want to hit the easy button. And I thought the example in the Cheap Flights ad was the ultimate easy button. Just share with the audience what the ad was about and how it worked.

B (25:59)

Yeah, absolutely. So this is a great example of. This is a great example of how you use technology to actually be creative and to hit an insight. So what Cheap Flights did is Cheap Flights recognized that when you're searching around and you want to go to an event, whether it's a concert, a sports game, really anything that you'd want to see, you're leaving that browser experience and you have to go into another. You have to go to whichever flight site is relevant in your market. And then you got to go to the hotels and all those sorts of things. What Cheap Flights did is removed all of those barriers and allows you just drag and drop whatever was on the page that you were interested in going into their banner app. And then that triggered a search for the tickets that you needed to get for the flights that you needed to get get and the hotels that you needed to get. So to me, what that was able to do was just have this Amazing insight. The immediacy and recognizing the challenge of having to do all that organization and just put it away in two seconds. I'm also actually, admittedly a huge fan of banner ads. I think that they're everywhere. Why not make them useful? Why not make them beautiful and fun? You and me both.

A (27:11)

It's like the whole world, everybody hates them. But actually with a bit of thought, they can work really, really well. I always cite a brilliant experience I have. I bought Microsoft Office and I got retargeted with ads from Microsoft. But rather than doing what everybody else does, which is to push out more ads saying buy our stuff and you sort of half smile to yourself, half cringe, look, I've already bought it. Leave me alone. No, what they did was they put out lots of links to content that would help me get more out of the product. That's brilliant. That's driving deeper engagement. And that's, that's just the sort of way I think retargeting technology can be used in a smarter and more creative way. But this whole concept of having banner ads that people love, actually, if the banner ad would do something really useful and save you time and be that easy button to show how brilliant your brand is, game on. That's where it's at.

B (28:04)

Exactly. And then the reverberating effect of that, and certainly for cheap flights, is anytime you're thinking about jumping off to a place quickly, cheap flights is going to be top of mind because they created a situation where you're able to remove so many barriers. So they in fact get the credit even after the fact for being the easiest choice to go, the most convenient choice. And they've been given credit for that in the mind of the consumer because of this experience and barrier removal that they were able to do. And that actually brings me to another great example of some not great work that works. And I feel bad because the two not great work that work examples I have are in are from. Are from Australia. But. But you know, and Australians are some of the best, most creative advertisers out there.

A (28:51)

So we do have listeners in Australia. And guys, thanks for listening. And we're not slating Australian ads at all. It just happens to be an Australian example that Kieran's pulled up. I mean, I thought it was okay, I think so that the ad was Narellen Pools. Do you want to say a bit more about Kieran?

B (29:10)

Yeah, absolutely. And so what relent Pools did, and this is something I think is just so clever and other brands have done this, but I Think this is a really nice example. Just in the turnaround that it provided for the business. People are going to engage with brands, some brands in very specific instances with known cues around them. Now for Narellin, they're a brand that provides pools for folks. Not surprisingly, people are more likely to engage and think about a pool on a really, really hot day. So the question an advertiser needs to ask themselves is what the heck are they doing advertising in days that aren't scorching hot? And so that's exactly what they did. They were able to sync up when and how they were purchasing ads with information from the National Weather Service in Australia, again, using some great data that was out there and put out these executions that aren't going to win any canned lives, but were done in a way that hitting the consumer at exactly the right time and using that information. And it was a transformative experience for the business. What I would say again, and kind of going back to kind of thinking practically as a brand. If you have a unique purchase occasion, if you have any usage occasion, try to find a signal there and really go around and look and see who can we work with to get that signal. Chances are the data exists somewhere and then then do a small test. We live in this test and learn environment and in this test and learn world and try to bump your media spend up, maybe your search spend, maybe bump up your banner spend when you know that target is that data signal is ringing its bell and see what the results are. It can often be really powerful and really transformative.

A (30:53)

Okay, so really great examples. Thank you so much for the research and sharing all this. But I really wanted to ask you, can we boil this down into sort of an effective recipe of ingredients that every really effective campaign might include?

B (31:09)

What we've got here is a series of pretty simple principles I think that any brand who wants to go out and make impactful, effective work can do. So the first is having a true understanding of why and how people are buying your product and service and really using that as a foundation. Now, whether that comes in the insight that you're going to push up against in the story you're going to tell, or the data signal that you're going to pull from, or how you're positioning your product in someone's life, that becomes paramount as the foundation of what's going to make it work and make sure that that's living in reality, that you're not talking to yourself, because once that is off kilter, then you're going to end up in Dove Bottle land, or you're going to end up in Volkswagen land. So the second part is to make sure that emotion plays a story. And, Kieran, to your point earlier, as we were kind of talking, the emotion can definitely be heartstring, tugging place, but it can also be fun. It can also be excitement. Think about the emotion that you want your brand to bring forth and make sure that you're telling a story that does it. And, you know, go out and work with great storytellers, great creative agencies, or, you know, test and learn to get there. But, you know, that's really where you're going to pull people in. And that foundation of using that service is going to come to light next. Next is work to be in the right place at the right time as much as you can. And the example of the pools and the data signals is a really great one, and really encourage brands to think like that. But going back to that foundation of how, when, and why people are using your product, you can make your ad buying incredibly efficient, but can also really impact how people receive your story by putting it at the right place at the right time. And then the last one, one is what the McWhoffer did, and that is to capture the imagination, right? Capture the imagination of your audience and give them an opening and say, like, look, we're trying to solve this problem. Inspire them, and then encourage them to then also participate. So, you know, while we've got those four checklists, four or five things on the checklist, if you can hit all those, you know, if we do this again the same time next year, we'll probably be talking about your.

A (33:23)

Yeah, yeah. I think it's interesting. Like, I suppose it's like a great spice, right? You don't necessarily use every spice in a recipe because it could taste utterly revolting. But actually, having the right spices at hand to complement the right contents of the dish can really, really help. So I guess that's how I'd see these. The kind of spices to be used appropriately and sometimes sparingly. But they do supercharge your work. Definitely.

B (33:51)

Absolutely. That's exactly right.

A (33:52)

Fab. Well, Kieran, thank you so much for reaching out. And I really enjoyed this a ridiculous amount, actually, if I'm honest. I love looking at. Looking at ads. I hope everybody listening will do, too. And if we want to find out, because we haven't spoken about where you work, actually, but if we want to find out more about the world that you're in at the moment and kind of get in touch, where do we go? Who do we speak to?

B (34:15)

So I would say find me on LinkedIn at Kyron G. Rogers I think that's the only point of delineation between you and I. Stratify is the company that I'm currently working for. We're a fintech startup based out of San Francisco. So feel free to go to stratify.com and hit up the info link if you have any questions. Can also be found on Twitter grnyc. But really always feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn and reach out. I obviously have a deep passion for this and know coming from the agency world that I did. Always love talking to folks who are still out there or you know, brands and yeah, would love to hear from anyone and everyone.

A (35:02)

Thanks for listening to the Digital Marketing Podcast brought to you by Target Internet. If you're investing in your digital marketing skills, take a look at our free Benchmark Skills tab test and look at the wealth of online learning we provide. To help marketers get up to speed and stay up to date. Just visit targetinternet. Com Benchmark.