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- [00:01]
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- [00:45]
Dinesh D'Souza
Are there fake Jews in the land of Abraham? Tucker Carlson seems to think so. My curiosity is piqued. If the Jews in Israel today are fake, if they are not the Jews descended from the Jews of the Bible, then who are they and where are the real Jews? Are the real Jews hiding someplace while imposters have taken their place? I don't mean this in a frivolous way. It's a serious question of whether Jews have a right to their ancestral homeland. It's part of a broader question. How do any people anywhere get the title deeds to a country? What gives them the right to live there, to say it's theirs? If the Jews don't have a right to Israel, do the Irish have a right to Ireland? The Indians to India, do we Americans have a right to live in America? This is the fundamental and important issue being raised here. Now. Tucker Carlson went to Israel. Well, he went to the airport in Tel Aviv and he confronted US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee about this. Their conversation covered several topics, but this was the central one. At least it was central for Tucker. Tucker even asked why every Israeli has not taken a genetic test to establish a connection to Abraham and the Jews of biblical times.
- [01:59]
Mike Huckabee
Abram's descendants are the ones who have the right to have this land, correct?
- [02:03]
Dinesh D'Souza
Yes. Okay.
- [02:05]
Mike Huckabee
Why don't we do genetic testing on everybody in the land and find out who Abram's descendants are? It's really simple. We've cracked the human genome. We can do that. Why don't we do that? Would you be against doing that?
- [02:17]
Dinesh D'Souza
I have no idea what that would prove. I mean, maybe it would be.
- [02:21]
Mike Huckabee
What do you mean what it would. It would prove who Abram's descendants are and who has a. A right to live here and who doesn't, according to the theology that you yourself just explained. And so I'm very confused as to why we don't do that. If you believe the theology that you've just explained to me, would we do
- [02:37]
Dinesh D'Souza
that all over the world?
- [02:39]
Mike Huckabee
This is the only country in the world that You've said has this covenant with God, that this people have a moral and legal right to the land.
- [02:49]
Dinesh D'Souza
Evidently for Tucker, genetic lineage is a necessary prerequisite to proving your entitlement to a country you can own. Tucker seems obsessed with disproving the connection between the old Jews and the new. His goal is to delegitimize the Jews claim to Israel. But there's a bit of a contradiction here and it's exposed by of all people, Nick Fuentes. If the so called Jews of today are not really Jews of the gospel in the Old Testament, then what does that mean? What does that imply? It means that they did not kill Christ. They are not responsible for the death of God. That's what it does for them. Link is upset that Tucker is undercutting another central theme of the Jew haters, namely the Jews killed Christ. This is a problem for Tucker since he too is into this Christ killer accusation. Remember this?
- [03:43]
Mike Huckabee
And Charlie would have loved this. Not just because he loved large groups of people, but because ultimately he was a Christian evangelist. And it actually reminds me of my favorite story ever. So it's about 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem and Jesus shows up and he starts talking about the people in power and he starts doing the worst thing that you can do, which is telling the truth about people. And they hate it and they just go bonkers. They hate it and they become obsessed with making him stop. This guy's got to stop talking. We've got to shut this guy up. And I can just sort of picture the scene in a lamp lit room with a bunch of guys sitting around eating hummus, thinking about what do we do about this guy telling the truth about us. We must make him stop talking. And there's always one guy with the bright idea. And I could just hear him say,
- [04:35]
Dinesh D'Souza
I've got an idea, why don't we just kill him?
- [04:37]
Mike Huckabee
That'll shut him up.
- [04:39]
Dinesh D'Souza
That'll fix the problem. I must say, life gets complicated when your anti Semitic nostrums start crashing into one another. Back to Tucker's genetic argument. Oddly enough, my original fallout with Tucker a few months ago when was over exactly this point, Tucker sent me a text. He said that the genetic studies show that European or Ashkenazi Jews have a lower genetic continuity with ancient populations in the region than Palestinians do. His point seem to be that the Palestinians are truly indigenous and the Jews are to a considerable degree fakers or imposters. Now here's how I replied to Tucker and I quote, in biblical times the Philistines occupied the territory that is now Gaza. Well, it was Gaza then too, but other cities were included, like Ashdod and Gath. But the Philistines, I said, were European settlers originally from the Aegean, not Arabs. Centuries later, in some cases as late as the 20th century, Arabs moved into that region. Many of them came from Jordan, from Syria and the Arabian desert. So they are not all caps, the original inhabitants of Gaza. And Tucker replied, and I quote, sure, I believe that. But then in classic Tucker fashion, he quickly withdraws his agreement, quote, but in order to determine who's actually inherited the land, we'd have to conduct global genetic testing to award property on the basis of the results. And then Tucker concludes, sounds like a Nazi project to me. As a Christian, I reject that. I replied to Tucker, ha ha ha. I don't think that's necessary any more than it's necessary to genetically test Asian Indians to make sure their ancestors are from India. Remember, Jews maintain their tribal identity very little in a marriage. They didn't try to convert people as Christians did. Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice conveys the picture very vividly. The Jews don't mix, so their continuity as a group is generally more secure than virtually any other group. Again, Tucker says, I agree with all of that, but promptly returns to his main theme. If the claim is that Jews have a genetic right to, to certain pieces of land, it's going to be necessary to do genetic testing. If, if the Jews are claiming a genetic right, then we have to genetically examine them. But are the Jews claiming a genetic right? I'm not sure they are. Well, maybe some are, maybe some Christians agree with them. But there are several other non genetic and in fact non religious ways to establish the Jewish claim to the nation of Israel. How do any people anywhere claim the title deeds to a country? There are generally only three ways to have legitimate possession of a country. If you look at all the maps of the world, they are drawn as they are drawn based on one of three criteria. First, you get land because you were there. First, you are the original or aboriginal inhabitants. Second, you get land because it is given to you as a result of some treaty or negotiation. Second. Third, you get land because of conquest. And that, by the way, is the most common method for acquiring the title deeds to a country. You take the land by force and you hold it. Most countries got their land in this way. Now let's apply this threefold criteria to America. In the case of America, the native Indians were here first, but the white man conquered the land by force. So there is a sort of competing claim. Now, in practice, the white man's claim is stronger because conquest usually takes precedence over original inhabitancy. And this is true practically, but it's not necessarily morally the case. This is why so many leftists insist that the white man stole the land from the Indians. The implication here is that conquest or force is an illegitimate way to establish political right or political legitimacy. But now let's apply the same threefold criteria to Israel. The Jews were the original inhabitants of the land of Israel, going back thousands of years. Even Tucker doesn't dispute this. His question is whether today's Jews are truly descended from those original and rightful occupants. Second, the United nations gave the land to the Jews through a proposed partition in 1948. By the way, the partition was accepted by the Jews, rejected by the Arabs, War broke out. And so we reach the third criterion, which is conquest. And here too, Israel prevails. In fact, Israel has fought at least three wars, 1948, 1967, 1973 to win and hold the land. My point is that Israel checks all the boxes. Land obtained through original inhabitancy, Check. Land given by negotiation, Check. Land held by conquest, check. I cannot think of any other group that has a stronger claim to the land than the Jews. Quite frankly, Jews have a stronger claim to Israel than the white man has to America. Now, I'm sure Tucker wouldn't be happy with that conclusion. Remarkably, he seems to ignore all the three criteria for land ownership that I've spelled out here. Rather, he focuses on a fourth criterion. God gave the land to Abraham and his descendants, so we better do genetic testing to make sure who those descendants really are. This, for Tucker, is the test of Zionist legitimacy. But Zionism was never based on this type of a biblical claim at all. As an Evangelical Protestant and as a Christian, Mike Huckabee might attach a strong significance to God's promises to the patriarchs. But the early Zionists, who were not Christian, didn't care about Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism. Didn't care. Interestingly, the early Zionists weren't even serious about their Judaism. The early Zionists were mostly secular, mostly socialist. They rejected Biblical claims to the Holy Land. In this respect, they were like Tucker Carlson. Tucker doesn't want them to be the chosen people. And they didn't want to be the chosen people either. Their point is that every other group has a homeland. The Hindus have India. The Muslims have lots of countries. There are many Christian or nominally Christian countries. So why shouldn't the Jews have a country too? In fact, the Zionists considered Several alternative locations for a Jewish homeland. They looked at spots in Uganda, Nigeria, Mozambique, Argentina, Australia and Cyprus. They even looked at a tract of land near Niagara Falls. Now, in the end, they settled on the place their ancestors came from. But the fact that they looked elsewhere shows that their claim was not biblical. It was political. Give us a piece of land that we can call our own. That's it. My point then is that Israel's legitimacy can be established in purely political and secular terms. I've just tried to do it myself. But even so, just out of curiosity, I thought let's go down Tucker's rabbit hole. Let's assume God gave the land to Abraham's descendants. Let's even assume that it was the whole Middle east from the Euphrates to the Nile. Now, what follows from that? Does it mean Israel must run the Palestinians out of Judea and Samaria? The so called West Bank? Or Gaza? Does it mean Israel must se Iraq or Jordan or Syria? Here is where Tucker scored his only telling point against Huckabee.
- [11:49]
Mike Huckabee
So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or he didn't. You're saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you're appealing to Genesis. You're saying that's the original deed.
- [12:06]
Dinesh D'Souza
It would be fine if they took it all.
- [12:08]
Mike Huckabee
But I don't think that's what we're
- [12:10]
Dinesh D'Souza
talking about here today.
- [12:11]
Mike Huckabee
What would be fine? Well, it's exactly what we're talking about today.
- [12:13]
Dinesh D'Souza
But here's what I don't think you're
- [12:14]
Mike Huckabee
I think it would be fine if the state of Israel took over all of it.
- [12:17]
Dinesh D'Souza
They don't want to take it over. He got Huckabee to say Israel could take all of it. And this produced something of a furor as leaders of several Arab countries issued a statement full of bitterness and pomposity denouncing Huckabee. But having a right to something is quite different from exercising that right. Now I have a right to vote, but I'm not forced to vote. Whether I vote or not has no bearing on my right to do it. So too, having a right to land doesn't mean you should or should not take that land by force. Even if the land is entirely in your control, it doesn't follow that you should or should not grant local autonomy to the people who live there. Israel controls Gaza. Yet Israel allowed the Arabs in Gaza to elect their own leadership. That's how Hamas gained control over Gaza. Israel let them have it. And by the same token, Israel can maintain a biblical right to the Middle east while conceding that in practical terms it has no intention of exercising that right. Huckabee himself made the point that Israel is perfectly content with its current borders as long as those borders are secure from people who want to wipe Israel off the map. Now, I don't think anyone, not even Huckabee, is seriously contending that Israel should occupy by force the whole Middle East. Biblical rights are by their nature somewhat problematic because no one, not even the most dedicated pastor or rabbi, can expect a biblical right to be acknowledged by people who don't accept the authority of the Bible to confer such rights. The Israelis know this, which is why they never, or at least hardly ever, make their claims on the basis of the Bible. But even so, let's continue our investigation. If God gave the land to Abraham and his descendants, how do we know that today's Jews are the direct descendants of Abraham? Well, in fact, we do not know. And we do not know because we cannot know. Think about it. In order to figure out if today's Jews have the same DNA lineage as Abraham, we need Abraham's DNA. Do we have Abraham's DNA? We do not. There is no way to get Abraham's DNA. So consequently, how is Tucker's criteria even viable? In principle, it isn't. Now, I've surveyed the academic literature on Jewish ancestry, which is admittedly quite complicated, and here's what we do know. Jews all over the world are descended from Jews who were expelled from ancient Israel and from people who converted to Judaism during the Hellenic period. This is the centuries before Christ. To the degree that such things can be measured, there is a high genetic correlation down to some very specific chromosomal characteristics between Jews now and Jews then. Remarkably, during the Hellenistic and the early Roman period, Jews were active proselytizers, very different from how they are now. Ancient Jews were more like modern Christians and Muslims. They promoted their religion, they tried to make converts. The Jewish historian Josephus estimates The Jews converted 10% of the Roman Empire, which would be several million people now. Of course, the jews scattered after 70 A.D. when the Romans burned Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. Some Jews migrated to Europe, others to North Africa, others to Asia. This is the great Jewish Diaspora. Yet each Diaspora group maintained its Jewish identity and culture. The focus was now on preservation and self protection, not expansion. Jews made some subsequent conversions, but not very many. They intermarried, but not a lot. Mostly they maintained their insularity. They protected their tribal uniqueness. Shakespeare captured this when he has Shylock say he Won't eat with Christians now. Why not? Because Jews don't mix. Because if Jews mix, who knows what might come next? God forbid, a Jewish girl might even meet a Christian boy. And of course, this is Shakespearean irony. Shylock's daughter, her name is Jessica, meets a Christian. She runs away with him. And for Shylock, this is traumatic. And this trauma is directly connected to his eventual breakdown into barbarism and his ultimate destruction. Of course, European or Ashkenazi Jews are genetically somewhat different from Asian or Sephardic Jews. Ashkenazi Jews sometimes have blue eyes and blonde hair because they occasionally married white Europeans or made converts among white European. Sephardic Jews are darker in color. They have darker hair and darker eyes. But Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are more closely related to each other than they are to outside non Jewish groups. Now, it would be idiotic to expect Jews today to be an exact genetic replica of the Jews of ancient times. Every group has patterns of dispersal, intermarriage, miscegenation. New recruits, new converts. This is true of the Irish, the Italians, the Norwegians, and also the Jews. Thus, every group experiences some dilution, especially over long periods. In this case, over a period of 4,000 years since Abraham lived around 2000 B.C. the ancient Israelites spoke Hebrew, practiced Jewish rites, celebrated Jewish holidays, ate horrible Jewish food, and worshiped Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jews today speak Hebrew, practice Jewish rites, celebrate Jewish holidays, eat horrible Jewish food, and also worship the religious ones, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So Tucker might choke on this, but that's what it means to be a Jewish. And that Tucker might choke on this, but that's what it means to be a Jew. And that's what makes them the legitimate successors of their great great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great great grandfather Abraham. And that's the way I see it.
- [18:00]
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- [18:24]
Dinesh D'Souza
Now, there's been a little bit of
- [18:25]
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- [19:02]
Dinesh D'Souza
I'm delighted to welcome Congresswoman Nancy Mace. She's running for governor of South Carolina. Nancy, welcome. Thanks for joining me. From the beginning, you have been a strong advocate for the full release of the Epstein files. The Epstein information, bring it out, let everybody see it, let the chips fall where they may. And you're probably as close as anyone to having looked at all this stuff, even from the back end. And so my question to you is, what is this Epstein thing really all about? At the core, what is the Epstein story?
- [19:44]
Nancy Mace
The Epstein story is a story of the haves versus the have nots. It's about a two tiered system of justice where the rich and powerful get one version of the system of justice and everybody else gets something very, very different. And it's not just about sex trafficking. That is a large part of it. But I believe that there were financial crimes, insider trading crimes, Ponzi schemes. I believe there may have been federal agents involved based on some of the information that I've seen and that there are dignitaries or world leaders that potentially may be involved with the entire scandal. And that's essentially what it is at the end of the day. It's those that have money and power and those that don't.
- [20:23]
Dinesh D'Souza
You suggested that there may even be a sort of intel or spy element to this sud. Epstein may be an asset working for our government or a foreign government. Have you seen any evidence that that is in fact the case?
- [20:37]
Nancy Mace
Well, I mean, he talks about a CIA dump in some of the email in the files. We know that one of his attorneys got an award from the CIA also. And also in the early 2000s when Alexander Acosta did that deal where he got one charge, one victim, even though they knew there hundreds of victims, he would not face federal charges. There was something that just overnight snap changed. They went from aggressively investigating him to all of a sudden touching him with kid gloves. And I do believe that he is some sort of an intelligence agent. Maybe it happened after, at least on the CIA side after they found out all the information that he had on certain leaders around the world. But I wouldn't put it past him to have been an agent of Israel or, you know, England to the UK or the United States. I think he was a dual or multiple agent, which is not out of the ordinary. And when they, they even his attorneys, even foia the CIA, who said they can't confirm or deny any files exist of him because it was confidential or classified. So I think there is evidence out there, there are breadcrumbs that he was involved with some sort of way as an intel asset.
- [21:49]
Dinesh D'Souza
The whole thing to me seems so weird. You have this guy who's like a math teacher at a prep school, and then magically he becomes an investor on Wall street. And the Victoria's Secret guy, Wexner, puts a bunch of money, a giant amount of money for Epstein to sort of play with, and then suddenly Epstein starts this kind of elaborate ring. Do you have any sense, just from a storyline point of view, like, how does this. How does this happen? What is it about Epstein that enabled him to lure people like Bill Gates, people like Prince Andrew? I mean, it's not like they needed Epstein to make introductions for them. What was Epstein's kind of secret sauce, in your opinion?
- [22:35]
Nancy Mace
Well, I think part of it is, I've read in both read stories, documentaries, he was very charismatic as an individual, a little bit of an enigma. People were. He found. People found him interesting, for example. And then, of course, he was loaded. He appeared to have all these relationships, he appeared to have all this money. And people with access and wealth, of course, want to have more access and wealth because it's a power play at the end of the day. And I think that's part of it. And, you know, we're deposing the Clintons this week, and I know people are going to ask, like, who was the girl in the hot tub? Let's the, you know, everyone wants to know that, but I actually am very interested in the power structure, the power relationships. What were they getting from each other that was so good? They had to hang out with a convicted pedophile, a former president, a former prince, you know, all these things. I think those are answers people deserve. And also we need to answer why no one has gone to jail. There are people being arrested in foreign countries, and we're just sweeping it under the rug here. We haven't even released all the files yet.
- [23:35]
Dinesh D'Souza
I saw a clip from Hillary Clinton where she was. I mean, what's interesting to me is this wasn't just Bill. Right. We could kind of make sense of why Bill is in the Epstein files, but Hillary is also active and she's minimizing her connection. She goes, Gil and Maxwell. Well, I might have run into her once or twice, but then there's a picture of Gill and Maxwell standing right there at Chelsea Clinton's wedding. So I think this supports your point that even for Hillary, there was something into it. And now we know, of course, that Epstein was apparently pretty instrumental in, in the founding of the big Clinton Global initiative that brought a lot of money into the sort of coffers of the
- [24:13]
Nancy Mace
Clintons, a lot of foreign money into the coffers of the Clintons, which really has never been fully investigated. But how does someone you've only met once or twice end up with an invitation to your daughter's wedding? So either the president or former president's family didn't vet anybody like had this massive security failure or she was a close relation to the family for whatever reason. And I think we ought to know why that reason is. She is a pedophile. Goodlaine Maxwell, she was a sex trafficker. She was part of the, the operation. She was introducing Epstein to individuals who were then apparently insider trading or part of Ponzi schemes, etc. What was really going on here and why? And why was that kind of money being exchanged and what, what did Epstein get from it? What did the Clintons provide to Epstein as a result of that relationship?
- [25:07]
Dinesh D'Souza
Just recently, a few days ago, big news. Prince Andrew was arrested. Now you've been actually calling for his arrest. I personally did not think it was going to happen. It did happen, and the news reports basically said it was in connection with improper use of office in relation to the Epstein files, can you tell us what that actually means? Are they referring to the fact that he used his power or what did Prince. What is Prince Andrew arrested for?
- [25:41]
Nancy Mace
Well, number one, I want to say in. Back in September, I was the only member of Congress to call for his arrest. And the press called me crazy like they always do. And it turns out, like so many things, I hit the nail on the head, number one. And I'm proud of being out there, out in front and doing what I believe was morally and ethically correct. That call and then to see him arrested, number two, it sounds like he was sharing private information, possibly insider trading is what I believe is being alleged in the arrest. What is typical in England, they get arrested and within a few hours later, a few days later, they get released under investigation. And I believe these are related to potential financial crimes, not sex trafficking. And at this point, I don't think it really necessarily matters. Justice needs to happen one way or another. And if it's bad publicity and somebody loses their job or loses their billions or loses board seats or business deals or someone goes to jail for a related crime, but not that crime, that is Still a form of justice for those that are victims of the Epstein debacle.
- [26:48]
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- [27:07]
Dinesh D'Souza
a an Epstein list? Because for years people have been saying, let's see the Epstein Epstein list. Now through the files, we've got a pretty large number of names. Some of the European names in America, a bunch of scientists have been implicated with Epstein. There are some people on the right, although it seems like more figures from the left and from the, on the Democratic side. Was there ever an Epstein list and are there names still to come out? You've been, you've been looking at the unredacted files. What can you tell us about either in general or specific terms? What have you found out?
- [27:45]
Nancy Mace
There are several lists. So anyone who says that there is no list is simply covering it up. That is a false statement. That is a lie. Some of the documents that you see that are completely fully redacted are simply lists of names. Now some of those lists are people that have been interviewed 1, 2, 3 or 4 times. Some of those individuals are listed as potential co conspirators. But make no doubt, they have lists of people who are victims, lists who are co conspirators, lists who are perpetrators, lists of people who are on the flight logs. There are plenty of lists to pull this together. But the other thing I want to mention is that when it comes to the co conspirators in the sex trafficking operation, those names are still redacted. So I'm going over to the DOJ today, probably tomorrow too when I go look up some of these files, especially the ones from the Southern district of New York that specifically talk about co conspirators. I still Dinesh, I still can't read those names and I have to make educated guesses about who they are.
- [28:48]
Dinesh D'Souza
Isn't it crazy? The pretext before was, well, you know, we've got some confidential victims who need to be protected. But what you're saying is that there is a list of people that the government was looking into for direct participation in the scheme. And even to now, not only I, but even you haven't seen those names.
- [29:10]
Nancy Mace
That is absolutely 100% correct. And the other shocking thing is too that I found in the files, there were a lot of women sex trafficking other women and so for me, I see this as women were sex trafficking other women and girls and then the men were participating. And so this needs to be a twofold investigation that's going after those that were selling underage girls and adult women. What, however you want to describe it, those individuals, basically everyone's gotten a deal. Everyone walks free. No one goes to jail. That can't happen here because I think that people see that as injustice. And it's just the Epstein case relates to a lot of different cases across the country, this two tiered system of justice. But these people need to, need to be indicted and they need to go to jail.
- [29:56]
Dinesh D'Souza
Now the women thing is really remarkable. What you're saying is it's not just Ghillen, you're saying that there were other women who played that kind of building trust with young girls role. Because I can't think of a single name. And you're saying names need to come out.
- [30:12]
Nancy Mace
Correct. There are females.
- [30:14]
Dinesh D'Souza
Do you know those names?
- [30:15]
Nancy Mace
I know some of those names and I will be naming those women that I believe need to come in and answer questions before the oversight committee and need to be investigated. There's an email that you may be familiar with where it talks about this new Brazilian nine year old. Well, that was a typo. It was actually a 19 year old. And the attachment in that email is a woman who's undressed. It was a model, but there was an agent at a French or Parisian modeling agency, a female and she will be named, who was sending images to Epstein of potential victims, I believe. And so it's really disgusting. There's a special place in hell for women that were providing Jeffrey Epstein women and girls.
- [30:55]
Dinesh D'Souza
I think I remember a case even of a Middle Eastern well connected woman who had made some reference in the emails to providing a girl. This wasn't a group, but just a single person. And I remember raising my eyebrows and thinking, wow, this, it does look like there is a sort of larger circuit here. And Dylan Maxwell was maybe the primary. You could call her, you know, product acquisition manager. If you put it crudely, Adam, it
- [31:20]
Nancy Mace
was a big number one madam, I guess you could say. But she was recruiting women to recruit other women and girls.
- [31:27]
Dinesh D'Souza
Now some of the Europeans have paid a price already, right? You've seen some big, high level resignations in, in the uk, but also I believe one in Norway and maybe a couple of other other places in America. So far it has been pretty much public shaming with no further consequences. I think I hear you to be saying, hey, listen to the degree that the laws are still in effect and the statutes haven't expired. We need to prosecute these people to the full extent of the law.
- [31:57]
Nancy Mace
Yes, that is 100%. I don't see much of an appetite right now by the DOJ to do that, which is why I'm advocating for the release of all the files. You can't hide behind privilege or privileges if you're not going to prosecute, not going to indict, not going to investigate. We're still missing millions of files. I still think we're missing names because information is redacted. There are audio and video. I don't want to see. See Sam, but clearly there's video. People going in and out of, I believe massage rooms are coming in and out of his properties that haven't been disclosed. He had hundreds of cameras. There must be millions of files that we haven't seen, terabytes of data that are being hidden from the American public and from Congress. And at the end of the day, I want to know why this was covered up. And you know, this goes back to the Bush era. I mean, we're talking not just the Obama administration or Biden. This is over two decades. And I believe that this is a cover up. I think it was purposeful. I think at some point the CIA caught on to what he had and converted him into an intel asset and that's why he got that sweetheart deal in Florida. And more other countries are doing more than we are to hold these people accountable. And then when you look at the justice system overall, if at the federal level we're letting these rich and powerful people walk free in the Epstein files, then you trickle on down state and local. Well, there's no reason why anybody would put a pedophile in jail or. I was at a murder hearing in a case last week in South Carolina and I got. When the judge was going to rule against the family, I showed up and did what I could to advocate for that family. And the judge ruled in the right way. But you know, you shouldn't just have to show up to court and get masses of people to show up in a courtroom to get justice. Right? And I think it's just a sense of the system is broken and we have to fix it at the top so that everybody knows at the state level on down that this doesn't slide anymore. We don't just sweep it under the rug that when people do bad things, they're investigated, they get indicted, there's a hearing, there's a trial, they go to jail, we Need a system of justice in this country.
- [33:50]
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- [34:01]
Dinesh D'Souza
Get started@turbotenant.com One surprising element to me, Nancy, from the files, is the number of nerdy scientists and tech guys. I mean, academics, a bunch of guys from Harvard. And it looks like, I mean, Bill Gates is probably the best sort of exemplar of this and a little bit of a surprise because you don't. You know, you might expect powerful business guys, powerful political figures or diplomats, but to see these nerdy academics in a very active circuit with Epstein is a little strange. Do you think it is just basically the phenomenon of the very weird kid who gets no attention from the girls in school, and then here comes Epstein and goes, hey, listen, I, you know, I can fulfill your wildest dreams, and you're gonna be, you know, you're gonna be the guy with the hot chick. Is. Is that what's going on here with these. With these nerdy scientists?
- [34:55]
Nancy Mace
It seems like it. Here's the nerdy guy, the nerdy billionaire with the hot Russian model or whomever, you know, foreign girl. I think that. I mean, I think that's part of it. I mean, you read that about that all the time. There's nothing, I think, unusual about it. It's just a perk of being a billionaire, I suppose, but as long as it didn't implicate underage women. Right? And I watched the interview with Melinda Gates, which is why I said, we need Bill Gates to come before the Oversight Committee. I believe he's got questions that need to have answers based on her interview and that information. You know, I want to get to the bottom of it. I don't care if you have a B by your name for billions or if you're a Republican or a Democrat or a former president, whatever it is, or a dignitary. We got to expose what's going on, and people have to go. This is an end until people go to jail. This is going to be around for a while until our country does the right thing.
- [35:44]
Dinesh D'Souza
One last question, Nancy, and that is there was a detail in the file about an FBI agent who kind of went in and swapped out the recording device in the jail where Epstein was being held. Now, I've heard Kash Patel Bongino say, hey, they're satisfied that Epstein killed himself. I'm not satisfied. Are you satisfied no, I'm not.
- [36:08]
Nancy Mace
And I don't believe that Epstein killed himself. Now, there were no pictures of him hanging, you know, on his. He was on his knees. Like, how do you break your neck when your weight of your body's on the floor? And the noose was like an inch or two wide. It was like basically a single sheet that was cut or stripped down. And it looked like it was three times the size of his neck. Like, I just, you know, these things don't add up. And then all of a sudden, the data is wiped, the cameras are wiped, the video. You have the biggest death in prison history, and at least in our lifetime, and you erase the video, you erase the data, and all of a sudden, two weeks ago, there's a new video that pops up that shows something orange, some kind of orange prison uniform, going up the stairs the night of his death. No, I don't believe that he was. That he killed himself. And then you have the marks on his neck that were mid neck if you're hanging yourself. My understanding is from forensics, the marks would be above your chin or right under your chin versus breaking bones here. Mid neck is more of a strangulation type of death, which. That's more believable to me that he was strangled to death than he committed suicide.
- [37:11]
Dinesh D'Souza
Nancy Mace, thank you very much.
- [37:14]
Nancy Mace
Thank you and God bless.
- [37:20]
Dinesh D'Souza
Hey. I'm now on Substack. It's kind of full circle for me. I started out as a journalist writing articles for National Review, the American Spectator, the Washington Post, lots of places. After my stint in the Reagan White House, I pivoted to writing books, and that was way back in 1991. So I've been mainly known as an author and of course, later as a filmmaker. But my first job, journalist, and now I'm getting back to that on Substack. You'll get original articles and commentary, groundbreaking investigations, exclusive access to film clips and show clips. And guess what? It's free. So check it out. Go to Dinesh D' souza.substack.com. Roger Stone hardly needs any introduction. He is a legendary political strategist and also an author. And I was yesterday on Roger's radio show talking about the Epstein files and stuff. Steve Bannon. And I'm delighted to welcome Roger to my show. Roger. For many conservatives, they were very surprised to see not just that Bannon is in these files, but he's like, all over them. There's a kind of massive traffic, a buddy buddy swapping of ideas and suggestions and mutual self promotion going on in These files. And now Bannon, after kind of laying low for a little bit and maybe hoping for this storm to blow away, has come out and said, guess what, guys, I've merely been doing research for a film on Epstein. Now, can we begin by having you comment on the plausibility of this research explanation?
- [39:14]
Roger Stone
Yeah, it's, of course, ludicrous. Just right up front, I think everybody understands what my. My essential beef with Steve Bannon is. He and I both testified before the House Intelligence Committee under oath, and in his testimony, he was specifically asked whether he had ever discussed WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, or the allegedly stolen emails with me. And he said, no, never. On no occasion that was, in fact, the truth. You can imagine my surprise when I was put on a Soviet style show trial by the Mueller Brigade when Steve Bannon showed up as their surprise witness, swept to the witness stand dressed kind of like a fat Johnny Cash, all in black, a lot of dandruff, wouldn't look me in the eye. But then when asked the exact same question, he said, oh, yes, I discussed it with Roger Stone in every phone conversation we had in 2016. Now, Jonathan Turley, the very renowned George Washington University law professor, looked at both transcripts and said that Steve had diametrically contradicted himself under oath. That was the beginning of the end as far as my concerns about Steve Bannon. Then I noticed that almost immediately after he was fired by President Trump, he popped up at Jeffrey Epstein's private home in New York City, which, by the way, is the single most valuable private, single residence in. In Manhattan. So I knew there was more to this. And now these incredible emails that detail not a man doing research, but a man, A, I think, searching for money, and B, seeking to coach Epstein through the making of a documentary on his rehabilitation. So I ask you, what kind of man reaches out to a convicted sex criminal and coaches him on how he can recover his public rehabilitation?
- [41:32]
Dinesh D'Souza
Well, Roger, you and I both have had some dealings with Ben, and I think this is helpful because if we hadn't and we just saw the files, we'd be like, all right, well, that stuff is all out there. Maybe there's some explanation. But it's always helpful when you've had some direct contact with somebody, because then you can sort of measure the public information against your own experience. In my own case, going back to, really 2011, when I was first making Obama's America, my very first documentary film, and I was, of course, completely in the dark about how to go about doing this, somebody said, well, you need to see this guy, Steve Bannon. He's got a film company. And so I sat down with Bannon and basically Bannon offered to me the following proposition. He said, look, why don't you go out there and raise the money for this film and go ahead and make the film and be the narrator of the film and sort of get it ready and then just sign over the rights to me, meaning to Steve Bannon. This was one of the strangest business propositions I've ever heard. I was befuddled at the time. Thankfully, I didn't accept the deal. But of course, years later, knowing what I know, and of course knowing the massive success of that film, and took in almost $40 million between the theater and digital and DVD and all that, I mean, this was a straight out effort to rip it off. I mean, to rip me off. And so I realized over the years that this is a very slippery character and that if Steve Ban comes over to dinner, you know, you better count your spoons.
- [43:08]
Roger Stone
There's no doubt about it. Look, this is the same Steve Bannon who pled guilty to defrauding $15 million worth of donors to the Build the Wall Foundation. His, his two co conspirators in that served long jail times. But for some strange reason, Steve pled guilty in Manhattan, the most hostile jurisdiction for any Trump supporter Republican free thinker in the country, and he got no jail time. That's very, very curious, by the way, that crime had nothing whatsoever to do with Donald Trump. Then he goes on, his new financial patron after he is fired by Donald Trump, seemingly doesn't get any funding from Jeffrey Epstein, although we don't know that. I don't think he was doing 15 hours of videotaping for free, nor providing his coaching services for free. We know that he goes on to be charged as an unindicted coconspirator in the $1 billion fraud perpetrated by his next financial patron, a man named Miles Guo. Now he's an unindicted co conspirator in that billion dollar fraud case. But once again, Steve Bannon himself is not prosecuted. I find this very curious. But Dinesh, the thing that is most shocking to me is that Steve goes on the air on the War Room, a name that he stole from my show with Owen Schroyer on the, on Infowars, which appeared for over 18 months, every day at 5 o' clock Eastern. So he kind of ripped off the name of our show, but on his show he professes to be an unalloyed supporter of President Donald Trump. But in these emails, he calls Trump stupid. He calls for Trump's removal under the 25th Amendment. He brags about undercutting President Trump's China trade policy. And most interestingly, he says that he, Steve Bannon, not Donald Trump. He, Bannon, is the centerpiece of the MAGA movement.
- [45:28]
Dinesh D'Souza
With the files themselves, I thought it's significant, and it's worth mentioning that there's no implication here that Steve Bannon is involved in any of the sex business with the underage girls. The communication is entirely sort of a buddy buddy and a business type. But it's also. There's also a. A friendly quality to it. And Bannon, as you said at one point, is very much coaching Epstein. Sort of, here's how you should make your case. Here's how you should dispel the whole pedophile image. And conversely, it seems like Epstein is giving Bannon career advice because he says to Bannon things like, well, listen, you might want to consider becoming more of a journalist because you're seen more as a political operator, but you can probably pull off the stuff you're doing more easily under the banner of, I'm a journalist, I'm just asking questions. So I think it's really fascinating that these two guys are trying to boost each other's careers.
- [46:37]
Roger Stone
I think that's a very, very accurate reading of it. And yesterday, for the first time ever, and there's a lot of material here to go through. It takes hours because they, they. Although they have not published everything, they published a great deal. It does appear to me like Bannon went to Epstein's island. There is no doubt that in the, in the email records, you can see that Epstein made a. A commercial flight reservation for Steve Bannon in 2018 to fly to the Virgin Islands. And he says within the email, Bannon will be staying with me, presumably staying on the island. So I think a very good question for Steve Bannon today, among many others, is, did you visit the island? And if you did visit the island, why did you visit the island? We know based on the emails that he was to visit the island two days after Epstein was arrested, that trip being canceled. Now they've released two hours of the 15 hours of the videotape that they did together. I'd like to see them release all of it, because I think what you're going to see is Steve Bannon coaching, as he does in the emails, repeatedly coaching Jeffrey Epstein on how to redo his image as a. A sexual check, a sex predator, as a Child sex trafficker. Kind of a kinder, gentler Jeffrey Epstein, if you will. Whole thing is exceedingly creepy. But I don't understand how Steve believes he will now run for President. It's pretty funny with all of these questions and not have to answer them. You know, it's one thing to be in the totally contained atmosphere of your own podcast where you control the questions and you control your guests, but when you get out there on the hustings and you try to run for president, you have to be able to answer questions, any questions. And I don't think he can stand up to those questions.
- [48:46]
Dinesh D'Souza
Roger, there's probably going to be some people watching this who will say, man, Roger, man, Dinesh, don't you realize that Bannon has been a big fighter for maga? Don't you realize that he's used the war room in a very effective way to mobilize people? Why are you going after this guy? Why don't we just sort of leave him alone? Maybe there's some explanation. Maybe there, there really isn't. Maybe he made an error of judgment. But why are we piling on somebody who is, quote, on our side? To which you say, what?
- [49:23]
Roger Stone
Well, my case may be a little different than yours, Janesh. He tried to send me to prison for seven to nine years for something I never did. I took three different polygraph tests on that narrow question as to whether I had ever discussed WikiLeaks and this entire false narrative put forward by the Democrats that the Democrat National Committee had been the target of a hack by Russian intelligence. By the way, there's no evidence of whatsoever. That is a, that is a contrivance of John Brennan's brain. Completely and totally false. But in my case, the judge would not allow me to produce expert testimony from Bill Binney, the leading counter intelligence CIA operative of all time, would not allow me to produce forensic evidence, would approve definitively. There was no online hacker of the dnc, not by the Russians or by anything, anyone else. And to the extent that information had been stolen, it had been downloaded to portable disks and taken out the backyard. So the Bible teaches us to forgive, but it doesn't teach us to forget. I've forgiven Steve Bannon for the fact that he tried to send me to prison for seven to nine years and destroy my life. But I haven't forgotten it because it is a cautionary tale for others who might think about getting involved with him. Then there's a whole additional question which we haven't got into yet, which is Steve's relationship with the very strange Chinese national Miles Guo, who finances the war room and his other operations after he leaves and is fired by the Trump administration and where that money came from and what the purpose of the money was. Mr. Guo, in a federal proceeding in New York, when asked 55 times what the source of that money is and what his relationships is with William G. Who is a low level Communist party Chinese Communist Party functionary, he takes the fifth 55 times. Now I've seen the telephone records that show that Mr. Bannon spoke to Mr. G some 95 times. These are called toll records. They don't tell you the substance of the call, only that the call was made. So I think there's a lot more here to dig into. But this is not the person who should be the leader of the MAGA movement post Trump, to say the least.
- [52:03]
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- [52:23]
Dinesh D'Souza
to highlight this is based on a previous conversation that you and I had, a little detail that I think gives people some idea of how traumatic this kind of political persecution is against you and your family that in some ways Steve Bannon, as you say, tried to make a lot worse. You came to with your wife to the premiere of my film Police State, which has an opening scene of an FBI truck approaching a family that is placidly eating dinner together. And then in a sense, all hell breaks loose. The FBI agents are all over the place, everybody's screaming, the children are terrified. Can you describe the effect of watching that opening scene on your wife?
- [53:16]
Roger Stone
First of all, Dinesh, you're an extraordinarily effective and powerful filmmaker and that scene was so disturbing to her she ran to ladies room where she vomited and she couldn't come out for a while. It was that emotionally trying. You really, you really can't explain what it's like when 29 heavily armed FBI agents storm your home at 6 o' clock in the morning when they bring a battering ram up to your front door. When they arrive in 17 armored vehicles, including two amphibious units. Because I lived on a canal at that time in Fort Lauderdale, my home was completely surrounded by FBI agents brandishing M4 fully automatic assault weapons. They pound on your front door as if you're not going to answer it. Then they, they perp Walk me out in the street. Okay, fine. I'm at least charged with a crime, despite the fact that it is not a legitimate one. But then dragging my wife out into the street in her night clothes, making her stand 25ft away from me, taking away our cell phones, of course, then they ransacked my house for 13 hours looking for evidence of the Russian collusion that literally does not exist. They destroyed my home. And then, of course, they. They bankrupt you. I lost my. My savings, my insurance, my car, my ability to make a living, because, like you, I make a living reading, speaking, writing, producing video. But I was banned from doing any of that. So they. They try to pressure you into. Into false testimony. This is what this was real about. There's no real crime here on my part. There's no Russian collusion to lie about. So what would be my motive to lie if there's no underlying crime? To violate the False Statements Act? Your. Your. Your lie has to be willful and it has to be material. I did make mistakes in my testimony, but none of them hid any underlying crime. It is. It is a wrenching, horrific experience. And it is only the fact that I returned to the church. It is only the fact that I was redeemed in the blood of the cross. It is only the fact that I prayed for the mercy of. Of. Of God Almighty that President Donald Trump saw that I was being politically persecuted, saw that I was being squeezed to get me to testify falsely against him, and gave me a full and unconditional pardon so I could begin rebuilding my life. But, yes, your film was a gut wrenching experience for both my wife and I, and actually temporarily made her ill.
- [56:13]
Dinesh D'Souza
Roger, do you think that the reason that Bannon was willing to be a kind of, well, dishonest hitman for Mueller against you. What. What did he get out of it?
- [56:27]
Roger Stone
Well, technically, of course, the. The government had an obligation to tell my defense lawyers that at the time of Bannon's testimony, he was under investigation himself in the. In the Build the Wall matter, where he was charged specifically with defrauding investors out of $15 million by. These are big rich people, by the way. These are small dollar donors. So I. My guess is he thought perhaps that if he had lied in his testimony against me, if he'd done what the prosecutors wanted, that they might have given him a break. Indeed, they indicted him anyway, so it was all for naught. But I think that was his motive at the time. Perhaps he saw me as a political rival, since I have extensively more campaign strategic advice experience. Than he will ever have. In fact, I don't think he knows much about this at all. So that may have been a secondary motive, but what he did is. Is horrific. But what he did to Donald Trump is even worse. In these emails, he calls for the use of the 25th Amendment to remove Donald Trump. He also calls for replacing Donald Trump with Mike Pompeo, the ultimate globalist. Mike Pompeo, who the recent disclosures of declassified documents by Tulsi Gabbard show us, knew in advance that the Russian collusion hoax was coming and did not bother to warn his boss, President Donald Trump, that Mike Pompeo.
- [58:12]
Dinesh D'Souza
Roger Stone, thank you very much for joining me.
- [58:16]
Roger Stone
This has been a great interview. I hope most people. More people. By the way, excellent reaction to our radio interview yesterday. One of the biggest shows I've ever done there. 77 WABC. My hat is off to you, Dinesh. As a filmmaker, I'm a huge fan and I'm very excited about your new show, Dinesh. So I'm honored to be here today.
- [58:37]
Dinesh D'Souza
Thank you. So we all know that Steve Bannon was talking to Epstein about doing this promotional film to defend Epstein, but we haven't seen the film. So to help Steve out, I've done for him a trailer of this upcoming blockbuster.
- [59:03]
Grainger Commercial Voice
Bannon Productions presents a film that will shatter the lies.
- [59:08]
Dinesh D'Souza
This is the true story of Jeffrey Epstein. I empowered young women, okay? I mentored them in entrepreneurship and connected them with movers and shakers.
- [59:19]
Grainger Commercial Voice
He gave the them hope.
- [59:20]
Dinesh D'Souza
If I had never met Jeffrey, I'd still be an incel.
- [59:23]
Grainger Commercial Voice
He gave the involuntary, celibate purpose.
- [59:27]
Turbo Tenant Advertiser
He's an inspiration.
- [59:29]
Roger Stone
With Jeffrey, there is always a happy ending.
- [59:32]
Grainger Commercial Voice
Jeffrey Epstein is the humanitarian.
- [59:41]
Dinesh D'Souza
Step into the world of the Dragon's prophecy. On a tour of the ancient land of Israel. I'm Dinesh d' Souza, and I'm inviting you to join me and Jonathan Cahn for the Dragon's Prophecy tour. We'll walk the ancient streets of Jerusalem and visit iconic landmarks like the Western Wall, the Sea of Galilee, and the Mount of Olives, exploring the real world settings behind the mysteries and what they reveal about the days we're living in. Book now at inspirationtravel.com dragon or call 844-71524. Hillary Clinton was interviewed by the BBC about Jeffrey Epstein. I was not ready for what she had to say.
- [60:24]
Nancy Mace
We have a very clear record that
- [60:27]
Dinesh D'Souza
we've been willing to talk about. My husband has said he took some rides on the airplane for his charitable work. Charitable work? I don't Recall ever meeting him.
- [60:38]
Nancy Mace
Did you ever meet Ghislaine Maxwell?
- [60:40]
Dinesh D'Souza
I did on a few occasions. Sounds like she barely knew her. But if so, why is Gill and Maxwell at Chelsea Clinton's wedding? Thousands of people go to the Clinton Global Initiative. Yeah, but I don't see those thousands of people at your daughter's wedding. What a liar. Just recently, Barack Obama went on a podcast and spoke out against, you know, the weaponization of the government. I. I kid you not.
- [61:14]
Barack Obama (clip)
Yeah, we don't want kangaroo courts and trumped up charges. That's what happens in other places that we used to scold for doing that. We want, like our court system and our Justice Department and our prosecutors to be and our FBI to be just playing things straight and looking at the facts and not meddling in politics the way it. The way we've seen later.
- [61:42]
Dinesh D'Souza
Yes. Well, in 2012, I made a film called Obama's America that got into Obama's world and into his head. I interviewed Obama's half brother, George Obama, who was living in slum conditions in Nairobi. Obama was going around saying, we are our brother's keeper. But I exposed how he had not lifted a finger to help his own brother. Yeah, I ticked off the vindictive narcissist Obama. How do I know that? Because he was bashing me almost daily on his website, barackobama.com and a few weeks after my film was released, the FBI was banging at my door. The Obama DOJ prosecuted me for a campaign finance violation, essentially giving away too much of my own money to a longtime friend running for political office. I was convicted in a kangaroo court presided over by Richard Berman, a Clinton appointee judge. No American in the country's history has been charged, let alone locked up, for doing what I did. Yet Obama and his henchmen, Eric Holder, Preet Bharara, head of the Southern District of New York, did a hit job on me. They, quote, went beyond the facts. They, quote, meddled in politics. So Obama is like the guy who poisons the wells and later shows up as the water commissioner. A total con man and hypocrite. I'd like to see this guy end up in the cell where I once was. That would be karma, which is my favorite Indian dish.
- [63:26]
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