ISRAEL AND CHARLIE

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

The Dinesh D’Souza Podcast
Episode: ISRAEL AND CHARLIE
Original Air Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Dinesh D’Souza (w/ co-host Debbie)

Overview:

This episode is an intimate conversation between Dinesh D'Souza and his wife, Debbie, following a whirlwind week that included attendance at Charlie Kirk’s funeral and a significant trip to Israel. The hosts reflect on the gravity of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, their experiences in Israel (especially biblical archaeology and the launch of Dinesh’s new film “The Dragon’s Prophecy”), the cultural and political divides in America, and the meaning of faith, forgiveness, and resilience in dark times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Attending Charlie Kirk’s Funeral ([01:59]–[13:54])

• The D’Souzas recount the logistical challenges and emotional weight of attending Charlie Kirk’s highly attended funeral:

  • “It was kind of an adventure to get to this event which had a massive number of people.” – Dinesh [04:35]
  • The immense security and crowds (people lining up since 2 am; even hiring line-standers) highlighted Charlie’s impact.

• Observations on the memorial itself:

  • "The event was extremely long … just had an unbelievable procession of speakers.” – Dinesh [08:10]
  • “It was an amazing morning of worship … it was like a revival.” – Debbie [08:39–09:38]

2. Powerful Moments & Notable Speeches ([09:54]–[13:54])

• Erica Kirk’s Speech: The standout moment.
  • “Absolutely. Erica Kirk. I can’t even imagine losing your husband and then going on … and speaking to a crowd about that.” – Debbie [10:07–10:33]
  • Her public forgiveness of Charlie’s assassin was electrifying and deeply Christian:
    • “I think the most amazing part of her speech was when she said she forgave his assassin.” – Debbie [10:49]
    • “It is of course, the essence of the Christian doctrine … the unique aspect of Christianity, which is forgiveness.” – Dinesh [11:05]
    • Dinesh reads Elon Musk’s reaction: “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Wow.” [12:24]
  • Contrast with Trump’s remarks: candid, authentic (“I don’t wish my enemies well. Charlie’s probably a little upset at me right now…” – Paraphrased [13:54])

3. Christian Forgiveness vs. Justice & Public Policy ([13:54]–[20:05])

• Debate over whether forgiveness and a demand for justice can coexist:

  • Dinesh distinguishes personal forgiveness from the function of “earthly justice,” i.e. the state’s responsibility to punish wrongdoing. [19:54–20:05]
  • “The state's role is you have committed a crime not just against Charlie Kirk, but against the state.” – Dinesh [20:05]

• Maturity in Christianity and the challenge of real forgiveness, especially in the wake of loss:

  • “I think Erica is really elevated to a level that I aspire to be.” – Debbie [17:36]

4. Political & Cultural Atmosphere Leading to Violence ([22:11]–[39:31])

• Indoctrination & Dehumanization:

  • The D’Souzas point to academia, the media, and mainstream cultural influencers as planting seeds of hatred and division:
    • “A lot of these professors are actually the reason why all these kids are the way they are.” – Debbie [22:11]
    • “They conduct the brainwashing … very similar to the Islamic radicals.” – Dinesh [22:11–22:56]
    • Debbie likens this influence to the Charles Manson analogy: instigators and manipulated “family.” [23:32]

• Role of Rhetoric from Political Figures:

  • Dinesh cites Senator Chris Murphy: “We are in a war right now to save this country … you have to be willing to do whatever is necessary.” [33:13]
  • Connection made between repeated accusation, “Trump is a fascist,” and the climate that could inspire violence.

• Personal Responsibility & Social Goading:

  • “The left has supplied the theory, and I am putting it into practice.” – Dinesh, reflecting on assassin’s possible mindset [34:28]
  • Analogy to Dostoevsky's “Crime and Punishment” – ideological justification of murder. [36:17]

• Modern Martyrdom & Martyr Complex:

  • “Charlie Kirk is a modern day Christian martyr.” – Debbie [38:18]
  • Contrasted with the martyr beliefs of Islamic terrorists and radical activists—willingness to inflict harm for their “cause.”
  • The assassin’s possible self-sacrificial motives are considered in this context.

5. Media Reactions, Calls for Unity, and ‘Fascist’ Labeling ([39:31]–[46:03])

• Left's Accusations: Memorial service criticized as a “Nuremberg rally,” “fascist,” or “militarization of Christianity.”

  • Dinesh flips the concept of unity: “Even though we give lip service to this idea of unity, not only is unity not our goal, it shouldn’t be our goal. It has never been our goal.” [43:33]
  • Historical examples: American Revolution, Lincoln and Civil War, Reagan—they all divided the country along ideas.

• Moral Distinctions:

  • Republicans/conservatives do not riot or seek retribution after loss, underlining a central claim: “We are not like them, and we are better than them and we are more decent than them and we don’t approve of [political violence].” – Dinesh [44:41]

• The ‘Lost Boys’ of America:

  • Erica Kirk’s reflection on alienated, angry young men in America; part of Charlie Kirk’s mission was to reach these lost individuals, even those radicalized against him. [46:03–47:11]
  • Elon Musk: “Charlie represented the light and he was killed by the dark.” [47:11]

6. Trip to Israel & “The Dragon’s Prophecy” ([47:36]–[56:39])

• Pilgrimage and Support for Archaeology:

  • D’Souza addresses accusations of being “paid by Israel” by clarifying they are donors, not recipients, of funds. [48:20]
  • Emotional, spiritual impact of the Pilgrimage Road opening; prominent guests included Netanyahu, Marco Rubio. [49:19]

• Musical & Cultural Observations:

  • Debbie describes the “remarkable” production and performances, including Hebrew music and the Hallelujah Chorus. [49:37]

• Connecting Israel to America’s Foundations:

  • Dinesh: “Israel, the physical land … and the archeology … are of a piece with the founding of America.” [50:31]
  • Athens and Jerusalem as twin pillars: Athens’s philosophical legacy vs. Jerusalem’s divisive moral claims. [51:45–52:39]
  • “The most divisive person in all of human history is Jesus Christ.” – Dinesh [52:39]

• Christianity at the Memorial:

  • Noting explicit invocations of Jesus, not just generic “God,” from figures like Marco Rubio and Donald Trump Jr. [52:46–53:39]

• Stephen Miller's Speech:

  • Noted for “Old Testament fury,” confronting evil and energized opposition criticism. [53:54]
  • “When people keep talking about it’s a Nazi rally, they always bring up Stephen Miller, by the way, who is Jewish.” – Dinesh [54:46]

7. Experiencing Life in Israel During Crisis ([55:01]–[58:47])

• Bomb Siren Experience:

  • The D’Souzas describe a sudden air raid siren during dinner in Jerusalem, having to take shelter.
  • Debbie reflects: “I actually felt safer in Jerusalem than I feel like going to downtown Houston. Isn’t that odd?” [55:47]

• Resilience of Israelis:

  • Waitress’s response to Debbie's question about living under constant threat: “We just have to. We have to live like this. We have to be happy. We have no other choice.” [57:08–57:53]
  • Dinesh: “In life … there’s no alternative but to get up on your feet and move on. That’s what these people are doing.” [58:32]

8. Calls for Hope, Renewal, and Personal Challenge ([58:47]–[60:20])

• Out of tragedy, the D’Souzas sense a rising spiritual revival and urge for moral renewal in America.
  • “I feel like we’re seeing a revival in our country … we need that light to overcome the darkness.” – Debbie [59:23]
  • Dinesh closes by noting that even his new film, “The Dragon’s Prophecy,” made before these events, aligns with these themes: confronting darkness but also offering hope and transformation. [59:38–60:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Forgiveness:

  • “The most amazing part of her speech was when she said she forgave his assassin.” – Debbie [10:49]
  • “It is the unique aspect of Christianity, which is forgiveness.” – Dinesh [11:05]
  • “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Wow.” – Elon Musk, as cited by Dinesh [12:24]

• On Division vs. Unity:

  • “Not only is unity not our goal, it shouldn't be our goal. … It was not Washington and Jefferson’s goal. It was not Abraham Lincoln’s goal …” – Dinesh [43:33]

• On Christianity’s Challenge:

  • “The most divisive person in all of human history is Jesus Christ. Divisive. As divisive now as he was then 2,000 years ago.” – Dinesh [52:39]

• On Trying Times:

  • “In life, when these things happen … there’s no alternative but to get up on your feet and move on. That’s what these people are doing.” – Dinesh [58:32]

• On Hope and Revival:

  • “I want to become a better Christian … I see hope. … we’re seeing a revival in our country that we needed, we desperately needed because we need that light to overcome the darkness.” – Debbie [59:23]
  • “It is a film that is eye opening, exhilarating, but in the end … very hopeful, very encouraging, and … will make you want to be, at the end of it, a better person too.” – Dinesh on “The Dragon’s Prophecy” [59:38–60:20]

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Selected Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---|---| | Introduction & Purpose | [01:59] | | Charlie Kirk’s Funeral Logistics | [04:35] | | Most Impactful Speech (Erica Kirk) | [10:07] | | Erica Kirk Forgives Assassin | [10:49] | | Elon Musk's Reaction | [12:24] | | Christianity, Forgiveness & Trump | [13:54] | | Political Indoctrination & Violence | [22:11] | | ‘Lost Boys’ and Charlie’s Mission | [46:03] | | Israel: Pilgrimage & Modern Context | [47:36], [49:19], [51:45] | | Air Raid Experience in Jerusalem | [55:01] | | Israeli Waitress on Resilience | [57:08] | | Calls for Hope & Revival | [59:23] |

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Tone & Style

• The episode balances a deeply personal, emotional recounting with cultural and political analysis.
• The conversation is candid, sometimes raw, and driven by a sense of searching for meaning and hope in tragedy.
• Both Dinesh and Debbie make appeals to faith, tradition, and personal transformation, urging listeners to see current crises as spiritual opportunities for renewal.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode offers a moving reflection on loss, faith, the complexity of forgiveness, and the search for light in times of darkness, interwoven with trenchant political and cultural commentary.

Transcript

[Narrator]

November is National Family Caregivers Month. One in four Americans is stepping up to help older loved ones with everything from meals to bills. Family caregivers spend thousands out of their own pockets each year, and too many have to quit their jobs to keep providing care. Working families can't afford to wait. It's time to care for America's caregivers. Learn [e-mail] CareForCareGivers paid for by AARP.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Coming up, Debbie and I were right up front at the Charlie Kirk funeral and memorial service. We're going to discuss in detail several aspects of it. Erica Kirk, Stephen Miller trump the underlying themes, the prospects for national revival, all in there. We also got back last week from a very memorable, almost sublime trip to Israel and connects, of course, with our support for biblical archaeology, but also with our new film the Dragon's Prophecy. So details on that. Also in today's podcast. We're doing it actually as a conversation between me and Debbie, moving our Friday podcast to today, but a lot to cover, so hang in there. Hey, if you're watching on x rumble or YouTube, listening on Apple or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel. I'd appreciate it. This is the Dinesh d' Souza podcast.

[Narrator]

America needs this voice. The times are crazy. In a time of confusion, division and lies, we need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth. This is the Dinesh d' Souza podcast.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Guys, I was out all of last week. We were in Israel, and then we came back and we went to Phoenix for Charlie Kirk's funeral and memorial service. And we have a lot to talk about. So I told Debbie, let's move up our Friday roundup. Let's do it today, Monday, and let's talk about everything that's happened over the past seven days and especially focusing on this funeral service, which I think was, well, kind of a turning point. So before we get started, I do want to make an announcement about the new film the Dragon's Prophecy, and that is that theater tickets are now available. You can get them. They're uploaded now. You can't get them at the theater, so don't go to the theater looking for theater tickets there. We're doing this as a, as movie buyouts. And there's, I don't know, 350, 400 theaters. The dates are October 6th and October 8th. Kind of easy to remember. Why? Because we couldn't get them for October 7th, by the way, movies do specials and stuff on Tuesday. So Monday, October 6th, Wednesday, October 8th, if you can see it in the theater, best way Great way to see it. But buy your tickets on the website. You can buy tickets, you can buy for a group. You can go as a group. It's take your church, take your Bible study, take your reading group, take your friends and family. Thedragonsprophecyfilm.com that's the website. The dragons. Plural. The dragons. Prophecy. P R O P H E C Y Prophecy. Film dot com. Honey, let's talk about, let's talk about the, the funeral service. We, we were exhausted from Israel and we, but you said, and I agreed, this is something we can't miss. We have to go. Charlie was one of our colleagues on the Salem podcast. He was also somebody who had. We featured in 2000 Mules. I did a bunch of screenings of the movie with him. So we have been, I've spoken at a number of his conferences over the years. I wouldn't say we were close friends with Charlie, but on the other hand we were connected to Charlie in all kinds of ways.

[Debbie]

Well, we've known him since he was in his early 20s.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Exactly. We met Charlie. Well, I met him before you did, but then I introduced you to him and, and this was really. Well, we'll talk about Israel a little bit later. But this was kind of an adventure to get to this event which had a massive number of people. We went in a Salem bus with all the Salem Hosts, or about 12 of us, I guess 13 of us in the bus, including the CEO of Salem, David Santrela. And then what happened?

[Debbie]

Well, so we, so apparently the stadium was not that close, right? So we had to take, we took a shuttle, right, A private shuttle. And we turned on the street leading up to the stadium and realized that the traffic was not moving at all. And they, you know, they had basically said, we got picked up at six o' clock in the morning. And they had said, and it started at 11:11, but they said, if you're not here by 8, no one's coming in.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And by the way, a funny tidbit on our airplane flight going to Phoenix, we, there was a couple sitting along with us and they were, well, they weren't a couple.

[Debbie]

It was two women.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

It was two women. By a couple, I just literally meant two people. Two women were going together as buddies. And, and not only that, but they were planning to go to the line at 2am but they go, listen, we're not going to go stand in line. We have hired a person. I didn't even know you could do this. I don't know how you find such.

[Debbie]

A person Kind of like a doordash type situation. But it's a person that will stand in line for you.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right? So it's like you stand in line from 2 to 7am and then, then they show up and take that spot in the line. So in any event, this shows you that for people trying to get general admission. Now, we, of course, we were in a VIP section. Salem had reserved tickets. And as it turned out, we ended up like in the fifth row from the front. So we actually had incredible. We couldn't have better seats, to be honest, apart from being on the stage itself. But the point being we had to get out of the car, get out of the van. And all of us all, yeah, we.

[Debbie]

Decided, we're like, is it faster to walk? And one of the, one of the Salem ladies goes, she goes, Well, I walk 14. I walk a 14 minute mile. And I'm like, oh, that's fast. We walk an 18 minute mile. And I don't know that well. We, it was two miles away.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

We walked. And not only did we walk, but once we got there, oh yes. No one knew what was going on. So they're like, go over here, go over there. We probably walked an extra mile on dirt road just to try to find out how we get through. And, and finally one of the Secret Service guys, like recognized.

[Debbie]

Only because he recognized you. That's the.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And he's like, hey, this way.

[Debbie]

And then everybody's like, we're with Dinesh.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

So, so anyway, we, we. Anyway, so that our life became really easy at that point. But, but this event was, I have to say, it's. It's something we'll remember, right? I mean, we'll look back on this and go, wow. And I think the event was very significant in our political life in the country generally. Let's talk about the event itself. I know some people watch it online. Of course, if you're watching it online, you're coming and going. Presumably you're not watching straight through. And the event was extremely long. Initially, I thought, you know, way too long. And probably that is right. They just had an unbelievable procession of speakers. And it was like three hours into it and the main speakers hadn't even come on.

[Debbie]

But I have to say, though, it was an amazing morning of worship.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

It really was. I mean, and they had marvelous. They had Kerry Jobe, they had. Who's the other guy? Chris Tomlin. Tomlin. And these guys were belting it out. So this was just. I mean, it was like a revival. And I think very much in the spirit of Charlie Kirk that they did that. I do think that when people come to these things much similar to Trump rallies, it's so difficult to get there. I mean, think about the two women we talked about, right? You're coming at so early in the morning, you're not gonna come and do all that or figure out how to park and then get yourself in the stadium three hours before it begins. And you're not going to do that for like a 90 minute event. So as a result, this was like a seven hour event.

[Debbie]

It was seven hours.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah. It was just a marathon.

[Debbie]

When we got there, we got there about 8:30.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah.

[Debbie]

Inside they were already worshiping. So they had started, I'm assuming seven or eight, maybe. Or maybe eight. And they went on until 11, just worship, you know, And I mean, it was really, it was quite amazing.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

But let's. What do you think if you had to pick out the single speech or the single item that you think is the most unforgettable, what would it be?

[Debbie]

Erica Kirk. Absolutely. Erica Kirk.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And specifically her.

[Debbie]

Well, look, I can't even imagine losing you a husband and then going on and, and, and speaking to a crowd about that. Your husband.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right.

[Debbie]

I can't imagine how you could do that so fresh after the, after the assassination. And, and just her, her composure and you know, I know she was, I know it was hard. You could tell that she was really.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Tell she was struggling, she was struggling.

[Debbie]

And she, that she get through it. But I think the most amazing part of her speech was when she said she forgave his assassin.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And I think this was striking. First of all, the impact on the crowd was electric. I bet the impact, even watching on TV or watching online was very strong. It is of course, the essence of the Christian doctrine, right? It is agape. It is Christian love. It is the unique aspect of Christianity, which is forgiveness. It's not something that you find in other religions. And to be honest, I mean, here's something interesting that Laura Loomer said. She goes, I listen to this. And she goes, I'm like stupefied, right? She goes, I cannot understand it. I don't get it. And now you're tempted to say, well, but what I'm getting at is that is actually a very natural reaction. It's a natural reaction.

[Debbie]

It's even a natural reaction if you're a Christian, right?

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And that's another way to say that Christianity here is taking something that is very natural, which is the desire for, for justice and the desire for punishment and even the desire for revenge. And essentially saying, this needs to be elevated from the natural to the supernatural or to the. Even the unnatural. I'll even go there and, you know, the proof that this has had a huge impact. Let me just read you Elon Musk. He posted this after the event, and I think this is the result of listening to Erica Kirk and the exact statement that you just mentioned, he goes, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Wow. So a key line in the Bible that not only encapsulates what Erika Kirk said, because she didn't quote that line, but it encapsulates the underlying rationale for that line. Like, why is it that we as humans are called to forgive? Answer. Because God himself does this. God himself takes the unforgivable truth about human blasphemy, human obstinacy, human rejection of God, human desire to say, we like our plan for our life better than your plan for our life. All of this is a scandal to God. Nevertheless, God goes, all right, doesn't matter. I forgive, and I'm offering it to you as a free gift. So our forgiveness comes out of that. If it wasn't for God's forgiveness, it would not be reasonable to ask that we do it, too.

[Debbie]

That's right. That's right. He does it for us, and he expects us to do it as well.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Now, in a very. I would say, funny and, to me, very appropriate, even though some people posted Erica Kirk and then they post Trump as if to say, you know, she's the angel and he's the devil. Trump, actually, I think in a moment of just extreme candor and the kind of authenticity that we've come to expect from Trump goes, yeah, Charlie even believed we should forgive our enemies. He goes, I don't believe that I want my enemies to suffer. He goes, I don't wish them well. And then he goes, charlie's probably a little upset at me right now. I love that. The reason is we don't want a Christianity so removed from natural human feelings and emotion that people look at it and go, well, that's not. That's so otherworldly that we cannot be expected to live like that. No, we want a Christianity that begins with outrage at what this guy did and broadened with outrage as to what he meant for all of. Of us, the kind of silencing that he hoped he could achieve. And by the way, Trump is not wrong to see the Butler assassination attempt and the Lawfare and the attempt to lock him up as part of the same thing.

[Debbie]

He's right, because it is.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

It is. It is part of the same thing.

[Debbie]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

So now there are some people who said, here's a contradiction. Christians. You've got Trump saying this and you've got Erica Kirk saying that. And the assumption of it was that Christians have to choose. They have to choose between the true Christian way. Erica, or they have to choose between the Maga cult, namely Trump. And I think. I don't know if you agree that this is a false choice.

[Debbie]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, to be a Christian encompasses a lot of different stages. I kind of liken it to a child growing up, you know, from childhood, teenagehood to adulthood. There are some very immature Christians and then there's some very mature Christians. And. And I think that. That our journey as Christians actually is a. Is that way. It's a spectrum that way. I know that when my father died when I was 17 years old, I blamed God, and that's because I wasn't really a Christian. I mean, I wasn't. I didn't really believe the way I.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Do now that there is an underlying architecture that there is a supreme ruler of the universe, that there is someone who might see the overall picture better than you could. It's hard to say. It's hard to admit those things and hard to recognize those things.

[Debbie]

Even when I was worship leading, you know, I thought I was a better Christian than I was then because I accepted Jesus and I basically reached out to God, asked him to forgive me because I had been such a dummy in blaming him, and I knew I was his child, and I knew that it was that God's will, that we never can understand God's will, we just never can. There is always a purpose, and we just don't know it. And, and as Christians, as we mature in Christianity, we accept those things that we didn't accept when we weren't truly mature in our faith. So I think Erica is really elevated to a level that I aspire to be.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And you're saying even most Christians would have a hard time getting there, particularly to see a husband.

[Debbie]

That's right.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I mean, we have seen, you know, of another case where, where you're talking about people whose own family has been killed.

[Debbie]

Well, yes.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And yet they're able to find it in their heart to forgive. I want to make a little different point, and that is that there is a difference between our role as individuals and as Christians, as citizens, and the role of the state, or the role of an official who is in the position of overseeing the state. You can call it a magistrate, because, remember, Trump is in that. Trump is an individual, but Trump is also in that role. He's the chief executive officer. He's also the head of the executive branch of the government. So I would put it this way, that Jesus wants us to forgive, and he wants us to forgive in part for our own sake, right? We let go of that. We let go of that burden which otherwise will torment us and haunt us and really destroy us. So we forgive for that reason. We also just forgive because we're commanded to. So we just in obedience to God and in gratitude to God. So this is nothing to do. There are some people, by the way, who are like, well, the shooter hasn't repented. This is irrelevant. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the shooter repenting at all. And I'm surprised at the number of Christians, goofballs who have been claiming that somehow forgiveness is conditional. Not so. Now let's turn to something, though, a little bit different, and that is the role of the state. The role of the state is to enforce justice. That is its actually highest role. The state is not God. The state is not there to extend, if you will. You could call it agape. Now, the state can temper this justice with mercy. So that if the. For example, the person is extremely contrite or if there are mitigating circumstances, you say, all right, you're not going to get the death penalty, you're going to get life in prison. All of that is conditional upon the circumstances and the attitude of the perpetrator. Right?

[Debbie]

Earthly justice.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Earthly justice. And earthly justice does not extend further than that. So I think to say, I forgive you as an individual, I forgive you as a Christian. I don't hold it against you. I'm recognizing you also as a child of God. And I recognize that ultimately, in the ultimate sense, it's going to be God who's going to judge what's happened here. But the state is in a much more, I would say, limited role. The state's role is you have committed a crime not just against Charlie Kirk, but against the state. And this is very obvious in this case, that this shooting is aimed at sending a political message. So there are lots of other putative targets and even putative victims, including, by the way, the two of us. In fact, there's a surprising number of people who yesterday and in the days, in the surrounding days have been saying to us, watch it. Be very careful. The TSA guy, as we're flying back is like, dinesh, really keep an eye out. You know, this Is this is a.

[Debbie]

As you know, I've been paranoid about this for years. Yeah, you have, because I know how evil they are. They don't, they don't solve things with debate, they solve things with violence. And, and I've seen it. I, you know, when, when the times I went with you to campuses.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

You've seen it?

[Debbie]

Yeah, I just, I saw it in those kids eyes. You know, there's a lot of evil there. Yes, they can, they can, they can be helped. Yes, but I don't know that they want to be. They're so indoctrinated. And you know, I've often said that these professors, a lot of these professors are actually the reason why all these kids are the way they are.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

They are the ones who, they plant the, not just the seeds, they conduct the indoctrination, the brainwashing and then they let the students who are less mature, less able to process that kind of information. Very similar by the way, to the, to the Islamic radicals. Right. You take a 19 year old and you tell him, listen, you know, you've got this, you've got this evil regime that is out to kill you and you have to strap on a suicide bomb or a suicide vest and go strike out at them and you promise them the, you know, the virgins, the immediate entry into paradise. Now if it was all so easy, why don't you do it? But they won't do it. Have you seen this as a single one of the Iranian mullahs done it? No. Has any member of parliament done it? No. Are the leaders of Hamas sitting around, by the way, in nice hotels in Qatar? Do they do it? No. So the point being here, I think what you're saying is that the professors are in a similar role. They are.

[Debbie]

I made the analogy the other day about Charles Manson. I said it's like Charles Manson's family. He was the instigator and the kids did the killing.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

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[Narrator]

Is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible. The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation. What if there was going to be a resurrection of another people, an enemy?

[Dinesh D'Souza]

People of Israel.

[Narrator]

Dinesh d' Souza went into a war zone to make his new film. It offers a new way to understand October 7th. Israel, radical Islam, anti Semitism and biblical prophecy. To the fate of the world, of humanity itself be tied to this place.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

We came back to a land that was largely barren and empty and we brought it back to life. And we're going to keep it.

[Narrator]

The Dragon's prophecy isn't just about the Middle East. It's about you.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Because without that Jewish foundation, there is no. No Christianity.

[Narrator]

Based on Jonathan Cahn's international bestseller in theaters October 6th and 8th. Streaming and DVDs available October 9th. Get the film at the dragons prophecyfilm.com this film contains graphic violence of October 7th.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And I think this is key because let's go into it. There are lots of people on the left who are saying in social media, who's they? Debbie? Right? They're like, who's the they? One guy did it. He bears the responsibility. Now, first of all, we don't even know if one guy did it. I do not think. I suspect and I'm here, I am in the realm of conjecture, but it's conjecture based upon. Well, we might as well get into it since we're here now. This text exchange, very, very suspicious text exchange between the suspect, Tyler Robinson, and his so called, you know, boyfriend, the trans woman, so called his love. His love, as he called. So you have this really weird text exchange and the essence of it, which I'll just paraphrase, is something like, you know, I'm the shooter. To which the trans kid goes, what? What? What? And the guy goes, oh, yeah, it's me. And the guy goes, I had no idea. So it goes on like this. And. And so there are people, by the way, wackos who will look at this. And they go, The FBI wrote it, or the deep state wrote it, or the Mossad wrote it. We're going to come back to all of this, so don't go into this right now because we have a lot to say about it. But let me just say this part about it, and that is what I think makes sense of that artificial exchange is that that was devised, I suspect, by the shooter to remove the responsibility of both of anyone else, including, by the way, potentially the other kid, the boyfriend. This way, all the blame falls on one guy and he's got documentary evidence that the other guy is like, what, what, what? I had no idea. Really. It's, you know, it's a way of saying, all right, now that we've done this and perhaps you knew about it and perhaps others knew about it, I'm willing to take, he's taking the fall. And we've seen cases where, you know, a couple will do a murder together and then the man will take the full responsibility. So this is not unheard of. And I'm sure that the FBI knows they're probably probing all this right as we speak.

[Debbie]

Wasn't he on stage? Some, some chat, social media chat.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Well, this is something that I think is huge. And, and, and here's what I mean. There are evidently posts on Discord.

[Debbie]

Discord, that's it, right?

[Dinesh D'Souza]

There are evidently posts where several people, more than one, said something really big is going down, like tomorrow. They knew. So they knew about the assassination before it happened. And that immediately would make them accessories before the fact. You can be an accessory before the fact or an accessory after the fact. An accessory after the fact would be like you knew about the body, you know, you didn't report it, but before the fact is you knew that this was going to go down and you said nothing. That's a crime. So all of this, I am just, I can't wait to see how all of this unfolds. But let's come back to what the left is saying. The left is saying, why are you saying they? Why are you blaming the left? So I want us to zoom in and try to put our finger very clearly on what is the responsibility of the left. What do you think it is?

[Debbie]

I think it's many, many things. I think it's academia. I think it's Hollywood entertainment, comedy. I think it's the media because what they do or what they did is they created and you know, and the reason I think this is even with some of my so so called friends on, on Facebook, you know, basically they said, well, he had it coming because he was a racist, he was a fascist, he was a homophobe, all these things. And so therefore, because he was all those things, which, by the way, he was not, but they were indoctrinated to believe he was all those things. And so because they thought he was all those things, it was somehow okay to take him out.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

All right, but that's after the fact. In other words, that is the unseemly post assassination. Yes, but jubilation.

[Debbie]

Right, but. But the people that. So this. This kid, right, that committed this crime was listening to these people beforehand.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

This is what I'm getting. I want to go into. So he is a product of this cultural whirlwind of information. So let us identify the key messages from the left that this kid could not help hearing. And not only that, we know from the messages that he left in his own writing or on the bullet or on the ammunition, we can prove that he was influenced by these messages because he repeated them. Right. So I would put it this way. Well, let me just read a quotation from Senator Chris Murphy. This is before the assassination. We are in a war right now to save this country. And so you have to be willing to do whatever is necessary. I highlight the word whatever because whatever means there's no limit. You just do what is necessary in order to save the country. Now let's add another element to it which is all too familiar to people. And this has been. Not only is this coming from the left, this has been coming from the left since about 2015. So for a whole decade, continuously, repeatedly, persistently, the left has said, trump is a fascist, MAGA is a fascist cult. And they're saying it now. They haven't stopped. They haven't abandoned that premise. So let's put together Trump and MAGA are fascists. And along with, to save our country, we have to fight this fascism. We have to do whatever is necessary to stop it. So here's my conclusion from the shooter's point of view. And granted, this is the point of view of somebody who is mentally unhinged or mentally unbalanced, but he's going to go. The left has supplied the theory, and I am putting it into practice. In other words, I am taking their words seriously. These are people who might irresponsibly mouth certain things. I am responsibly seeing it through. I'll give an example. There's a famous scene in Crime and Punishment where Raskolnikov is in a restaurant and Raskolnikov is toying with the Idea of whether it is right to kill someone completely innocent and take their treasure and use it for the public good. Think about this. This is sort of like, would such a crime using a kind of utilitarian standard be a good thing? So he's thinking about this, and it turns out that on the next table, two Russian officials are having this exact same conversation in connection with a specific person. And one of them goes, this woman is a money lender. She is sly, she exploits people. If her death would be wonderful for society, it would be a contribution to the social good. And then the other guy, the older official, goes, well, would you do it? And then the guy goes, no, no. And the guy goes, well, would you do it? And the guy goes, well, I'm just saying. And the other guy goes, well, if you wouldn't do it, why are you just saying? But, so Raskolnikov takes it to heart and he basically goes, that's right. If you really believe it, you need to do it. Right. And you see what I'm getting at here. You see how close it is to. From this ideology to the actual carrying out of a political assassination. Now, and of course, in crime and punishment, the assassination is not political, but it is. It does have an ideological motive.

[Debbie]

Ideology.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah. So in that sense, there is a political dimension to it.

[Debbie]

Well, even. I'm sorry, but even these pro Palestine demonstrators, Free Palestine. They do it.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And they've done it more than once. You showed me the latest example.

[Debbie]

A kid goes into a wedding and shoots down people and he yells, free Palestine. I mean, these people are so brainwashed. Brainwashed that they're doing it because they think that they're doing the right thing. I mean, you know, and they could have mental issues. But what I'm saying is the indoctrination is so great that I. They are willing to do.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And they are mirroring what the suicide bomber or the Hamas terrorist will do.

[Debbie]

That's right.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

In Jerusalem.

[Debbie]

Right. They're willing. So this is the difference between martyrdom. Right. So Charlie Kirk is a martyr. He's a modern day Christian martyr. The Islamic bombers and these Free Palestine people are martyrs for their cause, but they're the ones doing the harm.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

They have a totally different think of it. They have a radically different idea of martyrdom.

[Debbie]

They do.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Their idea of martyrdom is I go inflict maximum damage on an innocent person. Yes. And. But I myself get blown up in the process or shot.

[Debbie]

Even this kid, this Robinson kid, he was willing to be a martyr for his girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever he is.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

In the Muslim sense.

[Debbie]

In the Muslim sense, yes. He's willing to go into the battlefield himself, take on Charlie, because he's been brainwashed all these, you know, years or months or whatever. And he's will because he doesn't know if they're going to shoot back at him. In fact, I think this was one of the reasons that his dad, you know, he agreed to go in, in the police with his dad because he didn't want to be shot or he didn't want to be killed or.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And he also offered. The other interesting thing is he offered, essentially, I believe from the reports, he offered to kill himself to his dad, right? He said, I can kill myself. And his dad was like, no, we have to take you in. And so he ultimately agreed to that. Now, there are people who watch from the left, they're watching this service that we went to, and they go, this was a hate rally. This was a Nuremberg rally. This was a fascist demonstration. This was a militarization of Christianity. And then, of course, in a more moderate note, they go, this is not a gospel of unity. So let me. I'll let you talk about the fascist element of it, but let me start off by addressing this issue of unity, because, you know, first of all, the left aggressively divides the country. Second of all, when there is a division that looks bad for them, they call for unity. So we have this powerful event. People are giving their life to Christ. People are signing up for the Republican Party. People are like, I'm done with the Democratic Party. And the left is like, hey, what about unity? Right? So first of all, just the hypocrisy of it is just shameless. But I want to make a different point, and that is that even though we give lip service to this idea of unity, not only is unity not our goal, it shouldn't be our goal. It has never been our goal. It was not Washington and Jefferson's goal. It was not Abraham Lincoln's goal to give him his due, even though I have a very jaundiced view of him. It was not FDR's goal. It was not Reagan's goal. So let's say, let's explore this a little further. When America went to war with Great Britain, it completely divided this society. Lots of people did not want to do it. Lots of people were on the British side because they were like, we're under the British, but the British are not doing anything particularly bad to us. What are they raising the tax from like 1 and a half to 1 and 3 quarter percent? You want to Go to war over that? Are you out of your mind? Many of these people ended up fleeing to Canada. They were called Tories. So there were a lot of disenchanted Americans in the American Revolution. Number two, Lincoln could have avoided the Civil War by preaching unity. In fact, lots of people said, in the name of unity, you need to find a compromise. Let's just take the Mason Dixon line and extend it all the way to California. So south of the Mason Dixon line, we allow slavery, and north of the Mason Dixon line, we have all the states be free. And Lincoln said no. So Lincoln allowed the division. I would say he even sought it. Fdr, FDR actively divided the country, but he divided the country. So it was 70, 30 in his favor. Reagan divided the country. Reagan did not hesitate to boldly articulate a whole set of views. Quite honestly, 40% of the country did not agree. So what Reagan did was he got 60 on his side. The Democrats had 40. That's how Reagan won 44 states in 1980. That's how he won 49 states in 84. He created a division that favored him. And that's what we're doing right now. We are creating a division that favors us. Why? Because look at the issues, right? Can you find a real constituency of Americans who believe that men can become women, that crime in cities is actually a pretty healthy thing? And bringing those rates down to zero? I mean, Trump mentioned at the service, and this is Trump, he's gonna go off track. He's gonna go off his script. He talks about Chicago. He goes, the mayor over there thinks 11 murders a day or even 11 murders over a weekend is like, not bad. Like, hey, we're down to 11. We used to be like, at 17. And Trump is like, well, how about zero, right? How about stopping these murders? So this is not a feature of ordinary life in the city. And he goes, democrats will resist that. Democrats want to keep the border porous and let people come pouring in in terms of, we'll get future voters that way. Democrats also, as we talked about just now, they. They create this atmosphere in which they see extreme action as somehow legitimate by any means necessary. We don't believe that, by the way, right? It was noted at the service that even after Charlie is assassinated, there was no fear of Republican riots. There was no fear of counter assassinations. The left never said, hey, listen, all of us need to walk around now with bulletproof vests. I never saw a single person posting to that effect. Which means that they know it, too. They know, too in their hearts that we are not like them, and we are better than them and we are more decent than them and we don't approve of the. If there was someone in the MAGA side who did that, I submit that there would not be a single MAGA defender of that person.

[Debbie]

No, absolutely not. And you're right. I mean, look, I just. Just based on the people that I know that are on the left versus people that are on the right. You know, you just kind of. It's so. To me anyway, it's so obvious that it's good versus evil. I mean, it just is. A lot of people that I know that are on that other side are extremely agitated and, and just, you know, down people, they're. They're. They're not friendly. They always have a beef with something. They're, you know, they get irritated easily. It just. They're so dark. You know what I mean?

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I thought one of Erica Kirk's best lines, probably not. Not her most remembered, because her most remembered has to do with forgiveness, was where she said, you know, you have these lost boys of America.

[Debbie]

Lost boys, yes.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right. And they are. They don't feel they have the opportunities their parents did. They feel that America has sold them short. They have accumulated a lot of debt, admittedly in part by their own bad judgment, but also because the universities conned them into taking on this debt, expecting the federal government to bail them out and to pay it. But these young people are frustrated. They're angry. They don't have good relationships. And Erica Kirk was like, Charlie wanted to try to help those people, including the guy, including the kind of guy that killed him. So this is, I think, the largeness of our project, but it also is the tragedy of it, because when you try to do that, think of it that that's what got him killed. Because there are people who are in the dark side. Elon Musk, by the way, put that very well. He goes, charlie represented the light and he was killed by the dark.

[Debbie]

That's right.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Boom.

[Debbie]

I mean, that's a hundred percent.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Talk about a succinct statement of what, of what happened. Now. I'd planned for us to talk about. About the. This whole crazy business of, of what Tucker said and the Jews and hummus. I'm gonna defer this to tomorrow and I'll address it. I'll address it, but good, because you.

[Debbie]

Know how I feel about that.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I know how you feel about it. And. But I do want us to talk about Israel. And so let's, let's. Let's pivot to that in fact, this is sort of our segue into that. But let's briefly talk about our trip and how meaningful it was and how it also tied into the themes of the film. So we're donors to the Pilgrimage Road, as people who follow this podcast know. And by the way, in response to a couple of my Israel posts I've had, not surprisingly, people on the. On social media go, oh, come on, Dinesh, you're being paid by Israel. Everybody knows you're being paid.

[Debbie]

No.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And I'm thinking to myself, how stupid can you be? You know what I mean? We have been donating a large amount of money every year since 2022.

[Debbie]

For three years.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah, for three years. That's how we get invited as VIPs to go to this opening of the Pilgrimage Road. By the way, this was the Israeli Knesset was there, Netanyahu was there, Marco Rubio was there, people from the state. So it was essentially a small group of us, like 150, maybe 200 at the most in the whole world, who were there for this momentous event. And so the point I was trying to make is simply this, you know, Israel isn't paying us, we're paying them. It's crazy to accuse us of being somehow in the pay of Israel. No, we're actually giving them money, not the other way around. Now, that being said, talk about the event, and I also want to mention a couple of things I did while I was there in relationship to the film.

[Debbie]

Well, I mean, the event itself was. Was remarkable. And it wasn't just the speeches. Right. Because they were remarkable too. But it was, it was the Broadway type style production that they had. They had these singers, they sang the Hallelujah Chorus. I was singing along.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I mean, they opened with that incredible Verdi piece, which is the. I think it's called the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves. Just haunting, beautiful. And they had some Hebrew music as well. There's a piece I'm trying to. I'm trying to find. It was. It's Jerusalem, but it's, I think it said like Yerushalem.

[Debbie]

Yerushalam.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah. In Hebrew. Yes. Just like magical.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Invocation of the significance of this place. And, and so this was a wonderful event. Now, we went all the way for that, but we also wanted to do some stuff, basically exposing the ideas of the film to just some key people in Israel. So I did an interview with the Jerusalem News Service, which your friend set up, Barbara.

[Debbie]

Yes.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And then I also did iltv, which is a kind of English language channel. I did CBN The Christian Broadcasting Network. This is Pat Robertson's network, which has, of course, an office in Jerusalem. And so we did a bunch of those sorts of things while. While we were there. And so it brought home to us the way in which Israel, the physical land of Israel, the people of Israel, and of course, the archeology of Israel are politically, culturally, morally, religiously. Like of a piece with the founding of America. Because. And of course, I use the phrase Athens and Jerusalem. One of the points I try to make is that Athens does not need a defense, because Western philosophy, from Socrates to Plato, and then, of course, you have the Greek tragedy in the theater. You have the foundation roots of democracy. So we know that Athens has a precious legacy, and that legacy is not that controversial. But what is controversial is Jerusalem, because Jerusalem represents Yahweh, it represents the Bible, it represents the Ten Commandments, it represents the moral demands that God makes on man and specifically on us. A lot, I think, of atheism, a lot of rebellion, a lot of even agnosticism. Why does someone want to be agnostic? Not because there isn't a whisper in their conscience or their heart about God, but they don't want to be under the sovereignty of. Of God. They don't want God to make the rules that they need to live under.

[Debbie]

That's right.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right. So this is Jerusalem. This is why Jerusalem is divisive. And this is, by the way, initially, remember how I talked about how Washington and Lincoln and FDR and Reagan were divisive? The most divisive person in all of human history is Jesus Christ.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Divisive. As divisive now as he was then 2,000 years ago.

[Debbie]

Right, yeah, for sure.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

And this is, to me, also, let's. I mean, this, to me, is the coming right back to the memorial service for Charlie. And a lot of people commented upon the fact that there was such a kind of devotional tone to it, even from people you think of as being pretty secular. You know, here's Tulsi Gabbard, who knew that she was a Christian, but there you go. Pete Hagg said, even Trump. This was Trump Jr. Trump Jr. Now, the point here being this, that it's one thing for American political figures to invoke God. Reagan invoked God. Even Bill Clinton invokes God. Right. God Bless America, or a generic appeal to God. It's a whole different thing to invoke Jesus Christ and to specifically invoke Christ. And I forget who it was who was emphasizing Christ. Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio, like, knocked it out of the park. There were so many good speeches. I mean, I loved, I actually loved Stephen Miller because I think Stephen Miller brought the evil of the left out. It's one thing to have a revival. It's one thing to talk about grace. But again, just as Christ is divisive, you have to call out evil. And there were a few speakers. I mentioned Jack Bosovic, I'd mentioned Benny, but I also, I think Stephen Miller was the one who just let him have it. And he did it with a kind of Old Testament fury that I thought was just downright magnificent. This is, by the way, when people keep talking about it's a Nazi rally, they always bring up Stephen Miller, by the way, who is Jewish. Right. So you have a Jewish Nazi. According to the left, they're Nazi. Well, yeah, but I mean, I think it stung them. That's why they had to come back with this. Oh, it was a Nuremberg rally. I've even seen them try to take Stephen Miller's face and stick it on like a Goebbels costume.

[Debbie]

Oh, my God.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right, so this is. But don't be too worried about. This is a helpless, bitter flailing against a highly successful and powerful event. So anyway, to sum up, guys, well.

[Debbie]

And I wanted to go back a little bit to Israel. You didn't let me talk about Israel, but. So we actually experienced for the very first time a siren and we had to go into a bunker.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Oh, my gosh. We were eating a very pleasant dinner at the King David Hotel with our good friend Zev Ornstein, who by the way, organized the whole pilgrimage road event the next day. We're eating dinner with him. Yes. We all had to get up.

[Debbie]

We got up and went through the kitchen and into a. I guess it's some kind of a bunker.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

It's like a landing.

[Debbie]

Yeah. And we were there for about 10 minutes.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Well, it was interesting how the, you know, the Israelis were like, you know, like, welcome to Israel.

[Debbie]

You know, the amazing part is I actually felt safer in Jerusalem than I feel like going to downtown Houston. Isn't that odd?

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Well, I think it's actually downright. It's true, it's true. And the reason it's true is you can, you can walk the streets of Jerusalem at 10 at night and you have other well dressed people on the road. You have, it's all well lighted. You don't see people where you look at this guy and you go across the street, it doesn't happen. And so you feel that sense. Which by the way, this is what it is like to live in A good city. Right. And we used to have cities like that in this country. And maybe there are a few still left, but not many.

[Debbie]

Not many. I mean, we live in a really safe area, and I don't think I would feel comfortable doing that at 11 o' clock at night.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Even where we are.

[Debbie]

Even where we are, yeah. No, but I had. Not only did I have peace about crime in general, but I also had peace about, well, we're not going to. You know, people are like, oh, be careful. You know, they're. They're. They're shooting bombs at you guys and all that.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I just tell the little exchange that you had with the young.

[Debbie]

Oh, the waitress.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Yeah. Where you said, how do you do it?

[Debbie]

Yeah. Well, I was upset because we got word that the man who composed the music for a movie is not doing well. In fact, he may pass away because what he has is incurable. So I was crying, and she was very concerned. She comes over, she goes, what's the matter? And I told her, and she goes, oh, I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do? And she just had such a pleasant demeanor. And then I said, I go, how do you do it, living here, you know, with all this danger constant? And she goes, well, we just. It's. We just have to. We have to. We have to live like this. We have to be happy.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Right.

[Debbie]

We have no other. I think she said, we have no other choice. Right.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Which, by the way, is a great line out of. Out of also the Poseidon Adventure, where a young woman loses her brother. Of course, you know, the. Consumed by the water, he's just taken by the flood, and he's killed, and she's inconsolable, and. And an older man is like, come on, we got. You got to go. We got to go. We got to keep moving. And she's like, I can't go. I can't move. She's like, how do you expect me to go on? His answer is the same. He goes, well, because we kind of have to. You know, there's. We don't have a choice.

[Debbie]

We don't have a choice.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

This is. In life, when these things happen, it looks like you've been, like, pulverized by life itself, but guess what? There's no alternative but to get up on your feet and move on. That's what these people are doing.

[Debbie]

Well, if there's anything that comes out of these two adventures that we went on last week, and this is what.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

Erica Kirk is doing.

[Debbie]

Yes, exactly. She has no other choice. Right. And I think that, you know, I want to become a better Christian. I really do. I think that this weekend really inspired me to be a not just a better Christian, a better person, which actually falls in line with being a better Christian. But I see hope. I see people professing their faith when they were too afraid and ashamed in unusual places. That's right. And so, so unfortunately, out of tragedy or fortunately, the silver lining is I feel like we, we're seeing a revival in our country that we, we needed, we desperately needed because we need that light to overcome the darkness.

[Dinesh D'Souza]

I'm very happy that our film, which by the way was made before this, could not have obviously anticipated any of this, but nevertheless, it has that uplifting spirit. It's very consistent. It doesn't hesitate to show the dark side. It actually shows the author of the dark side. It goes into the root of all this. But on the other hand, it is a film that is eye opening, exhilarating, but in the end, I think also very hopeful, very encouraging, and I think will make you want to be, at the end of it, a better person too.

[Narrator]

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