The Dispatch Podcast: "A Second Civil Rights Movement? | Interview: Juan Williams"

Date: March 17, 2025
Host: Jamie Weinstein (for The Dispatch)
Guest: Juan Williams (Fox News analyst, author of New Prize for These Eyes: The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement)

Episode Overview

This episode features Jamie Weinstein in conversation with Juan Williams, prominent Fox News political analyst and author. Williams’ new book centers on what he calls America's "second civil rights movement." Their discussion explores the origins, impact, and controversies of this movement, the legacy of Barack Obama, reactions to Donald Trump, and the debates over DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion). The conversation is candid, critical, and wide-ranging, and concludes with Williams’ insights on Fox News and appointments of media personalities within the Trump administration.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Juan Williams Wrote His Book and What It Argues

• Williams’ Thesis (02:27): Argues that a "second civil rights movement" is underway, distinct from the classic movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Contrast to First Movement:
  • First movement: “classic” events, e.g., 1963 March on Washington with 250,000 people.
  • Second movement: Example is Black Lives Matter 2020, marked by thousands of marches, millions of participants worldwide.
• Williams’ Aim: Wants readers to recognize the significance and modern impact of the new movement, both in its scope and in opposition to it.

  "People have to tune into it so they can understand the power of that movement and the power of the oppos.” – Juan Williams (03:22)

2. Origins: Obama’s 2004 DNC Speech as a Turning Point

• Williams places the beginning of this second movement with Barack Obama’s 2004 Democratic Convention keynote address.

  “This is not a black America and a white America ... This is America. We are the United States.” – Williams quoting Obama (04:20)

• Obama’s optimistic, post-racial message was a departure from previous Black leaders focused on grievance, opening "psychological doors” for new conversations about race.
• Obama insisted, “he's not a post-racial president ... he's just the president, not a civil rights activist.” (05:21)
• Weinstein and Williams agree Obama generally avoided racial issues publicly, noting exceptions (“beer summit,” Trayvon Martin comment).

  “He avoided racing and saw it as potentially a drag on his political fortunes ... I never saw him as any kind of radical in there. I saw him as a politician seeking more votes.” – Juan Williams (07:02)

3. Obama and the Rise of Trump

• Williams links Obama’s presidency to a white backlash, facilitating Donald Trump’s political emergence – particularly through the birther movement and Tea Party activism.

  “I don't think there's any question Trump is a reaction to Obama.” – Juan Williams (11:34)

• Legislative achievements (e.g., Affordable Care Act) and opposition to them became racially charged symbols, fueling Trump’s rise.

4. Is Trump Racial or Racist?

• Weinstein brings up Al Sharpton’s distinction that Trump sees people "through a racial lens," rather than overt racism (12:01).
• Williams counters that Trump’s behaviors go beyond stereotyping; his actions around Central Park Five, anti-immigrant rhetoric, and employment discrimination show entrenched prejudice.

  “When it comes to minorities and immigrants, those stereotypes often are corrosive, negative, and damaging.” – Juan Williams (13:52)

• Williams acknowledges some minorities (esp. men) are drawn to Trump’s image of wealth and dominance, but argues Trump fundamentally sees the majority of minorities as dysfunctional/threatening (15:50).

5. DEI – Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion: Defense and Critique

Williams’ Defense (20:37):

• “To my mind, the I, the inclusion ... diversity is taking care of itself.”
• America is no longer overwhelmingly white; diversity is now demographic reality.
• The real issue is equity, as power and wealth remain concentrated among whites.

Explaining DEI:

• Fairness in admissions, hiring, representation, curricula.
• Curriculum wars: Should uncomfortable histories (slavery, exclusion of Jewish refugees, etc.) be taught, even if it creates discomfort?

Critiques and Pushback:

• Weinstein presses Williams: Most Americans agree on teaching the "warts and all" of U.S. history, but object to “ideological" DEI (e.g., Kendi’s prescriptions, “any disparity is discrimination,” “whiteness is evil”).
• Williams: Extreme positions are unhelpful and self-defeating, not reflective of the real DEI agenda.

  “To me, it's self-destructive and hurts his own argument to say stuff like white people are evil. That's craziness.” – Juan Williams (24:50)

• Admits language like “defund the police,” or excessive “programming” about “white privilege” can and has backfired, allowing opponents to caricature DEI and civil rights work.

  “When people get into things like Latin X and ... ‘white people are prejudiced,’ I just find this offensive. ... It is self -defeating.” (29:08)

• The debate is polarized and exploited for political gain by both extremes.

6. Colorblindness vs. Color Consciousness

• Weinstein notes Obama’s original message was colorblind unity, while much of current movement rhetoric stresses color consciousness: “Isn’t there a tension?”
• Williams acknowledges a tension between individual merit in a shared America and repeated insistence on racial difference.

  “Some people are insistent on saying you've got to recognize the black experience in America … it can be off putting ... color consciousness would lead you ... to say, well, white people are responsible for slavery ... It can lead you down this line of thought that is so difficult and polarizing.” (37:51)

• Williams personally supports a broad, inclusive approach while being honest about America’s historical burdens, arguing the real work is about opportunity for all, regardless of identity.

7. Tangible Results of the Second Civil Rights Movement

• Williams points to:
  • The impact of 2020’s George Floyd protests in swinging the election away from Trump.
  • Georgia’s election of a black and a Jewish senator, fueled by activism against voter suppression.
  • Ketanji Brown Jackson’s appointment to the Supreme Court.
  • Increased racial and gender diversity in popular culture, media, and advertising.

  “The way that we think of our world today in America is more diverse, more inclusive than ever in the history of the country. And I think Black Lives Matter is part of that effort.” (45:04)

8. Black Lives Matter: Violence & Perceptions

• Weinstein challenges the tendency to minimize violence at BLM protests (cf. January 6th debate).
• Williams insists over 90% of BLM marches (esp. post-George Floyd) were peaceful, citing independent studies; violence or rioting, while real, should not be allowed to define the movement.

  “…if you listen to Donald Trump ... he wants to show that he is the law and order president … even when marches are peaceful, he [Trump] caricatures them as violent.” (33:09)

• Notably, the majority of BLM marchers were white – evidence, Williams argues, of broad-based support.

9. Reflections on Fox News & Trump Administration Appointments

• Williams recounts being personally attacked by Trump on Twitter for criticism, and says he avoids personal contact with him.
• On Fox News: Williams recognizes he is a minority voice but values the platform to present his views (47:57).
• On Trump Administration's appointments of Fox personalities (e.g., Pete Hegseth as Defense Secretary, Dan Bongino as FBI Deputy Director): Williams is skeptical of their qualifications and characterizes the appointments as displays of loyalty-driven "affirmative action."

  “I trust him as like a podcast host or something, maybe for a right wing audience … it’s a huge affirmative action hire. ... That’s what’s important here, I think.” (49:05)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the Movement's Impact:

  “This book makes the case ... that there is a second civil rights movement taking place that's having more impact than the first movement.” – Juan Williams (02:47)

• On Obama’s DNC Speech:

  “People were just stunned to the point of elation because they hadn't heard ... an optimistic, sunny, even message coming from a black leader.” – Juan Williams (04:35)

• On Obama and Race:

  “I never saw him as any kind of radical in there. I saw him as a politician seeking more votes.” – Juan Williams (07:02)

• On Trump Backlash:

  “I don't think there's any question Trump is a reaction to Obama.” – Juan Williams (11:33)

• On Trump’s Stereotyping:

  “He attaches [stereotypes] to people. But when it comes to minorities and immigrants, those stereotypes often are corrosive, negative, and damaging.” – Juan Williams (13:52)

• On DEI Backlash:

  “I think that when people have this discussion, it's really subject to the effect, the Trump effect ... He [Trump] says these people are in fact radicals opposed to the American way of life.” – Juan Williams (24:43) “To me, it's self-destructive and hurts his own argument to say stuff like white people are evil. That's craziness.” – Juan Williams (24:50)

• On the Risks of Polarization:

  “You are alienating the very people who you need as allies to keep this movement going and to create an equitable racial landscape in this country. What are you doing?” – Juan Williams, reflecting on “defund the police” (30:35)

• On BLM Protest Demographics:

  “The numbers say that 60 plus percent of the people who marched after George Floyd was killed were white people. Whites. It's a tremendous support coming all across America.” – Juan Williams (34:30)

• On the Second Movement’s Achievements:

  “You see in terms of advertising ... dramatic comedic fare ... our world today is more diverse, more inclusive than ever in the history of the country.” – Juan Williams (45:04)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [02:16] – Williams explains his purpose for the book and outlines the concept of a “second civil rights movement”
• [04:02] – Obama’s 2004 speech and its role as a turning point
• [06:35] – Discussion of Obama’s approach to race while in office
• [09:27] – Obama’s presidency and the rise of Trump
• [12:53] – Is Trump racist or “just” racialized?
• [20:37] – Williams’ case for DEI and assessment of present-day diversity
• [24:50] – Weinstein and Williams on the ideological divides within DEI and critical race theory
• [28:53] – Williams’ critique of DEI’s excesses and “self-defeating” approaches
• [32:10] – The peaceful majority at BLM marches and the politics of protest perceptions
• [36:24] – The colorblind society ideal vs. the current movement’s emphasis on color consciousness
• [42:56] – Examples of concrete progress from the second movement
• [46:15] – Williams’ personal experience with Trump and thoughts about Fox News
• [49:05] – Skepticism about Trump’s media-based appointments

Memorable Moments

• Williams directly addresses the tension between the “colorblind ideal” of the early 2000s and today’s more race-conscious equality debates (37:51).
• Blunt critique of public-facing DEI language and stances, e.g., “That’s craziness” in reference to anti-white rhetoric, showing Williams’ willingness to critique advocates on his own “side.”
• Williams brings concrete statistics to BLM discussion, pushing back on caricatures and highlighting white involvement as an underappreciated aspect (34:30).
• Fitzgeraldian note on how both far-right and far-left “provocateurs” manufacture division, exploiting the language of racial debate for political/ideological gain (44:40).

Conclusion

This Dispatch Podcast episode is a robust, challenging discussion of the "second civil rights movement," its origins, and the state of racial politics in America. Williams’ perspective is nuanced, sympathetic to DEI and BLM while acknowledging their missteps and excesses. He’s clear-eyed about the political weaponization of race by the Trump era and recognizes both progress and pitfalls in the current landscape. A thought-provoking listen (or read) for anyone interested in the evolution of the American civil rights struggle.