Podcast Summary: The Dispatch Podcast — "Corrupting Influences | Roundtable"

Date: December 5, 2025
Host: Steve Hayes
Guests: Jonah Goldberg, Kevin Williamson, David French

Episode Overview

This episode of The Dispatch Podcast offers a pointed, deeply analytical roundtable discussion on phenomena undermining the rule of law at the highest levels of the U.S. government. Hosted by Steve Hayes with panelists Jonah Goldberg, Kevin Williamson, and David French, the team scrutinizes the legality and ethics of recent U.S. military actions in the Caribbean, the Trump administration’s war powers rhetoric, the abuse of the presidential pardon, and the consequences for American political and military culture. The conversation winds up on a lighter note with the panel’s favorite music and podcasts, a nod to Spotify Wrapped season.

Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Rule of Law & US Attacks in the Caribbean

• [01:53–22:16]

Overview:
The panel details the controversy surrounding Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon's campaign of airstrikes on alleged drug-running boats in the Caribbean. Two strikes on the same vessel, including one targeting survivors, raises substantial questions about violations of the laws of war and the shifting, evasive government explanations.

Key Insights:

• David French highlights direct violations of the Defense Department's Law of War Manual regarding the targeting of shipwrecked individuals.

  "The Law of War Manual says in black and white that an order to destroy shipwrecked individuals is exactly the kind of illegal order you're required to refuse." ([04:22])

• Jonah Goldberg and Kevin Williamson emphasize the administration’s use of shifting, pretextual justifications rather than transparent logic.

  "Almost none of the arguments... are the face value arguments... At almost every turn, the arguments are pretextual for whatever the real reason is." (Jonah, 10:52)
  "It's a campaign of mass murder being conducted for political theater." (Kevin, 14:19)

Memorable Moment:

• Kevin:

  "What Donald Trump is doing is simply blowing up boats in the Caribbean because they're full of South American people that he would like to murder for political purposes, because it's good theater." (16:36)

• The group discusses the administration's desire for the "authority that war gives them" while dodging the legal constraints that should come with it (Jonah, 13:28).

2. Rhetoric & Bad Faith Arguments Around War Policy

• [25:39–37:08]

Overview:
The hosts dissect the administration's use of war metaphors and the consequences of debased rhetoric, which “triggers our lizard brains” (Jonah). They mock the tendency to blame rising cocaine deaths on boat strikes while ignoring meaningful evidence or consistent logic.

Key Insights:

• The administration and allied media personalities frequently exaggerate interdiction statistics (e.g., “lives saved” by destroying boats).
• Public discourse is being twisted into binary, demagogic arguments—disagree with summary executions and you are "for 50 million people dying from fentanyl." (Jonah, 31:50)
• David French: The cycle of official lies and pretext is so relentless it’s now being “caught in lie after lie after lie in the judicial realm.” (32:29)

Notable Exchange:

• On the war-on-everything rhetoric:

  "If it's a real war... People who buy drugs should be, you know, penalized for collaborating with the enemy... You can see how stupid it is to call it a real war if you're not willing to live with the consequences." (Jonah, 39:20)

3. The Impact on Troops and Institutional Integrity

• [42:03–51:52]

Overview:
Steve and David reflect on the corrosive impact of lawless rhetoric and leadership on rank-and-file military personnel and morale.

Key Insights:

• The bluster of politicians matters less than leadership and promotion criteria within the military ("when you change the criteria for promotion...that has an influence all the way up and down").
• David French is highly skeptical of the veracity of Pete Hegseth’s war stories about defying legal guidance in Iraq:

  "I am extremely skeptical, to be honest, about that story. Just extreme. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm extremely skeptical." (50:00)

4. Hegseth’s Signal Scandal and Compromised Security

• [52:14–56:00]

Overview:
Discussion shifts to the Pentagon IG report on Hegseth’s use of an insecure app to share classified information, including imminent strike details with journalists.

Key Insight & Quote:

• David French:

  "To put this in context, I would view this as 10x the Hillary Clinton email scandal ... but this is one of the things where the administration is following the playbook of we just brazen this thing out." (54:57)

5. Presidential Pardons as a Corrupting Influence

• [57:24–71:53]

Overview:
A deep dive into the unchecked pardon power, documenting the Trump administration’s willingness to pardon (and pre-pardon) political allies, convicted drug kingpins, enablers, and figures involved in major international crimes.

Key Arguments:

• The current exercise of the pardon power exemplifies the Founders’ worst fears: that it would become a tool of monarchical cronyism and legal impunity.
• Kevin Williamson advocates for a constitutional amendment to require congressional oversight of pardons:

  "The pardon power... has become very, very corrupting. I don't think you would see people like Pete Hegseth doing what they're doing if they weren't confident that there was a pardon waiting for them..." (59:01)

• Jonah Goldberg:

  "There are a large number of things that are unconstitutional or illegal but that are not justiciable, which simply means that the courts are not going to take up the issue..." (64:55)

  • Pardons are now an unreviewable license for executive lawbreaking.

Memorable Quote:

• David French, on historical context:

  "You cannot run your country on the basis that the leaders are going to have the character of George Washington." (73:00)

• Pardons of major traffickers (Juan Orlando Hernández, Binance’s Zhao), seditious conspirators, and others directly undermine the administration’s own rhetoric on narco-terrorism.

6. Lighter Segment: What We’re Listening To

• [77:48–89:14]

Overview:
The hosts close with talk of their favorite music and podcasts in homage to "Spotify Wrapped" and "Apple Replay."

Highlights:

• Jonah listens to "The Rest is History," "The Editors" (National Review), and “Commentary” among others.
• Kevin, a mixtape purist, enjoys "World in 30 Minutes" (European Council on Foreign Relations) and BBC’s “Daily News Podcast”—and uses heavy metal to recover from kids’ road-trip music.
• David recommends “Empire,” “Revolutions,” “School of War,” "Ezra Klein," and "Ross Douthat" for broader context, and is a sports podcast fan.
• Steve is deep into the band Goose and alt-country/indie music.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• David French:

  "The Law of War Manual says in black and white that an order to destroy shipwrecked individuals is exactly the kind of illegal order you're required to refuse." (04:22)

• Kevin Williamson:

  "It's a campaign of mass murder being conducted for political theater..." (14:19)

• Jonah Goldberg:

  "If it's a real war...you can see how stupid it is to call it a real war if you're not willing to live with the consequences..." (39:20)

• David French:

  "Impeachment is essentially a dead letter...The abuse of the pardon power would be absolutely catastrophic." (73:00)

Takeaway

This roundtable presents a damning portrait of official contempt for legal norms, both in wartime conduct and the abuse of the presidential pardon. The hosts argue that unchecked executive power—whether to kill or to pardon—has a profound corrupting effect on American institutions and public morality. With Congress abdicating its constitutional role, and with the judiciary largely unable to intervene in questions of pardon abuse, the panel warns of an increasingly Caesarist, unaccountable presidency.

For further reading:

• The accompanying essays by French, Goldberg, and Williamson (linked in the episode show notes) provide detailed arguments for reforming the presidential pardon power and restoring constitutional checks and balances.