Podcast Summary: The Dispatch Podcast – “Is Liberalism a Luxury Jews Can't Afford?” Interview with Jonathan Greenblatt (ADL CEO), Hosted by Adam Date: March 4, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Adam sits down with Jonathan Greenblatt, CEO of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), to explore whether the long-standing liberal, pluralistic advocacy of American Jewish organizations remains tenable amid a record surge in antisemitism post-October 7, 2023. The conversation traces the ADL’s history and mission, the shifting landscape of Jewish alliances, the sources and evolution of antisemitic threats, campus trends, and the heated debate over anti-Zionism versus antisemitism. Throughout, Greenblatt grapples with the balance between upholding a universalist liberal tradition and focusing on urgent, defensive self-preservation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ADL’s Mission, History, and Jewish Liberalism

• [02:41] ADL Origin and Mission

  • The ADL was founded in 1913 in response to the lynching of Leo Frank and persistent, systemic discrimination against Jews in America.
  • Mission: “To stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all.”
  • Greenblatt:

    "ADL, since its founding... has always had this view that the Jewish people will not be safe unless everyone is safe, that we won't be free unless everyone... isn't free. That's the general idea."

• [04:40] From Self-defense to Universal Advocacy

  • Early ADL victories included overturning exclusionary quotas, exposing media stereotyping, and supporting other minorities (e.g., Brown v. Board amicus brief in 1953, immigration reform).
  • The mission expanded: "Justice and fair treatment to all compels us to fight all forms of discrimination, not just anti-Jewish discrimination."

• [07:28] Jewish Identity and American Liberalism

  • ADL’s and, broadly, American Jewry’s orientation toward liberalism and pluralism is rooted in both Jewish ethical teachings (Hillel, mitzvah) and historical patterns of marginality and mutual support.
  • Adam:

    “Something in the Jewish mission and the Jewish identity has been intertwined with the American form of liberalism, of pluralism. Right?”

2. Crisis Point: The Surge in Antisemitism

• [08:56] Unprecedented Spike in Antisemitic Incidents

  • Since 2015, ADL tracked incidents have risen from ~950 to nearly 9,000 last year—a meteoric rise, with Jews as 2% of the US population, but 10% of all hate crimes.
  • Greenblatt:

    “What is unmistakable, is we are dealing with the worst surge of antisemitism we have recorded since ADL started doing this work.”

• [13:46] Self-Preservation in an Age of Abandoned Alliances

  • Many minority and progressive allies have distanced themselves from Jewish organizations post-October 7.
  • Greenblatt:

    "Before I help them put out their fire, their homes that are burning, I've got to put out my house first... In a moment where we do not see allies lining up to help us, I have no trouble being very clear... where my priorities are... on protecting the Jewish people."

3. Questioning the Universality of Solidarity

• [15:51, 16:03]

  • The classic Jewish/American liberal idea “Jews won’t be free unless everyone is free” is noble, but practical realities have changed.
  • Adam:

    “Is... the idea that the Jewish people can only be free when everybody else is free... a slogan we don't have the luxury of at this moment?”

  • Greenblatt:

    “Slogans are just that, they're slogans... in this moment, our house is on fire. And I've got to put it out right.”

• [17:08] Playing Different Political ‘Games’

  • Adam suggests: Jews have been playing the “pluralistic, liberal American game,” while others are in a “self-preservationist, tribal game.”
  • Greenblatt:

    “If you're playing by one set of rules and the other guy's playing by the other... The Jewish community will never thrive if we don't have allies... we're only 2% of the population.”

4. Rethinking and Rebuilding Alliances

• [17:43] Strategy for Allies
  • Past work with Muslim civil rights groups like Muslim Advocates is now on hold; Greenblatt draws the line at working with groups that “dehumanize others.”
  • Greenblatt:

    “I won’t humanize people who dehumanize others... But within that, we have a pretty wide berth."

• [20:44] Engaging New Allies — Including Conservative, Hindu, LDS, and Evangelical Communities
  • Pragmatism required, even if not aligned on every issue.
  • Greenblatt:

    "The Jewish community in this moment needs to try to think hard about who our allies are... and look for new allies who work with us and accept us for who we are and what we believe."

5. Controversy Watch — The Elon Musk ‘Salute’ Incident

• [23:29]
  • The ADL’s refusal to immediately censure Elon Musk’s gesture as a Nazi salute drew criticism.
  • Greenblatt:

    “We didn't think it was a Nazi salute... let's all take a deep breath and give grace and try to find ways to come together.”

  • In retrospect, Greenblatt admits underestimating the “impact” versus “intent.”
  • Greenblatt:

    “Sometimes, there is intent and there is impact. Whereas I think we got it right on the intent side, I think we didn’t appreciate just how profound the impact would be...”

6. Threats Facing American Jews: From All Sides

• [30:03] Analysis of Rising Antisemitism

  • Three core causes behind the surge:
    • Historic scapegoating during periods of “systems failure” and populist distrust
    • The coarsening of public discourse and loss of Holocaust memory
    • The amplification of hate by social media
  • Greenblatt:

    “Antisemitism is almost part of the human condition... When systems fail, oftentimes you see populists who will blame others... And the Jews always lose, whether it's the left or the right...”

• [33:00] Specific Threats: Radical Left, Islamism, and the Far Right

  • Radical Left:
    “Seizure of institutions of culture” through woke/DEI ideologies—especially on college campuses, schools, some workplaces, and parts of the media.
  • Islamism:
    State-sponsored antisemitism by Iran, media influence of Al Jazeera/Qatar, anti-Jewish propaganda on social media.
  • Extreme Right:
    Violent groups like the Blood Tribe, Goyim Defense League, Patriot Front responsible for vandalism and direct threats.
  • Greenblatt:

    “My strategy is, number one, disrupt the extremists. So we are focused on disrupting the radical left, the Islamists, the far right.”

• [38:24] Shift to Offensive Strategy

  • Launching legal and advocacy initiatives (e.g., Campus Antisemitism Legal Line, more lawsuits than ever before, collaborating with law firms for Title VI cases).

7. Campus and Institutional Response

• [41:00] ADL’s University Report Card

  • Ratings on ~30 objective measures: Jewish life support, incident frequency, and school policies.
  • 70% of schools tried to improve after receiving initial poor grades; collaboration with Hillel and Chabad has grown.

• [44:29] Nature of the Problem: Cosmetic or Structural?

  • Adam points out that much antizionist/antisemitic output is rooted in deeper pedagogies and ideologies.
  • Greenblatt:

    “A lot of these university presidents... there's not a lot of moral courage on the front lines... lack of moral courage, combined with some radicals who’ve sort of captured the conversation, is a very toxic equation.”

• [48:59] Reform or Build Anew?

  • Discussion of whether to rehabilitate elite institutions or create “Exodus University”-style alternatives.
  • Greenblatt (on his philosophy):

    “I’m an institutionalist... but I also believe... in building. I don't think it's either or. I think it can be both.”

8. Anti-Zionism vs. Antisemitism Debate

• [53:24]

  • Greenblatt is adamant:

    "There is no debate. If you are rooted in fact, it isn’t a debate. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism."

  • He traces antisemitism’s shifting forms: from religious, to racial, to political (anti-Zionism).
  • Greenblatt:

    “These are all manifestations of the same pernicious, ugly antipathy toward Jews.”

• [57:36] Diaspora’s ‘Privilege’ and Israeli Security

  • For some, diaspora Jewish identity is seen as distinct from Israel; for Greenblatt, diaspora safety flows from Israel existing.
  • Greenblatt:

    "The diasporic identity that we enjoy is a privilege because of the state of Israel."

• [60:57] Jewish Dissent Does Not Excuse Bigotry

  • Greenblatt affirms:

    “Your identity doesn't exempt you from intolerance. You could be black and say racist things, and you could be gay and say homophobic things, and you can be Jewish and say anti Semitic things.”

  • He believes Jewish anti-Zionists “give succor to antisemitism.”

9. Extending the Fight: K–12 & Broader Society

• [61:49] Combatting Politicized Education and Early Pipeline Problems

  • Many campus agitators go directly to graduate studies and into K-12 influence; ADL is watching public curricula, tenure, and governance closely.
  • Greenblatt:

    “We’re certainly seeing things like ethnic studies and other curricular interventions that politicize classrooms... lay the path for the kind of problems we’re talking about on the college campus.”

• [63:13] ADL’s Pluralist Approach Remains

  • Protecting the Jewish people through pluralistic ideals, but with sharper prioritization.
  • Greenblatt:

    “Again, we have a core purpose here, which is to protect the Jewish people and the mission. The way we go about it is what I said at the top. That isn't changing. Again in this moment, we're prioritizing appropriately in light of the problem that we face.”

10. Blind Spots on the Left and Right

• [63:43]
  • On the Left:
    Lack of comprehension of Jewish identity multiplicity, ignoring non-European Jews, and the unique Jewish relationship to Israel.
  • On the Right:
    Dangerous tolerance of armed militias/extremists (e.g., “Camp Auschwitz” t-shirts at January 6), whitewashing violent actors.
  • Greenblatt:

    “Extremism of any kind is dangerous. It's combustible and it can turn on you like that... I care what you value.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prioritizing Self-Defense:

  “Before I help them put out their fire... I've got to put out my house first.” —Greenblatt [13:46]

• On Slogans vs. Reality:

  “I don't have the luxury of philosophizing... I gotta help people whose kids are getting... harassed at their homes, college students are getting assaulted, like, on the quad. I don't... have time for it.” —Greenblatt [14:58]

• On New Alliances:

  “I won’t humanize people who dehumanize others...” —Greenblatt [18:33]

• On the ‘Elon Musk Salute’ Reaction:

  “Whereas I think we got it right on the intent side, I think we didn’t appreciate just how profound the impact would be.” —Greenblatt [24:44]

• On the Surge in Hate:

  “Antisemitism is almost part of the human condition... And the Jews always lose... whether it's the left or the right...” —Greenblatt [31:20]

• On Offensive Legal Strategy:

  “ADL has filed more lawsuits in the last 12 months than in our previous 110 years.” —Greenblatt [36:15]

• On Anti-Zionism:

  “Anti Zionism is a 21st century form of anti Semitism and we need to treat it as such.” —Greenblatt [59:24]

• On Internal Jewish Dissent:

  “Your identity doesn't exempt you from intolerance... you can be Jewish and say anti Semitic things.” —Greenblatt [60:57]

• On Rebuilding or Reforming Institutions:

  “I’m an institutionalist... but I also believe... in building. I don't think it's either or.” —Greenblatt [49:38]

Key Timestamps

• [02:41–04:21]: ADL’s founding, historical mission, and early victories
• [08:56–13:46]: Post-October 7 loss of allies; prioritizing Jewish self-defense
• [17:08]: Diagramming Jewish and non-Jewish group strategies
• [23:29–25:28]: The Elon Musk Nazi salute controversy
• [30:03–36:15]: Trends and new legal strategies in combating antisemitism
• [41:00–44:29]: Campus report card: data-driven improvement of university climates for Jews
• [53:24–61:12]: Deep dive on anti-Zionism vs. antisemitism — the ideological and communal struggle
• [63:43–66:26]: Blind spots among the left and right in confronting antisemitism

Takeaway

This episode presents a candid, deeply informed discussion about the evolving threats facing Jews in America and the purpose, limits, and reality of liberalism and pluralism in responding to those threats. Greenblatt’s ADL remains committed to justice for all, but now with a clarified, urgent prioritization on Jewish safety, re-evaluating alliances, and adopting a more aggressive, innovative posture in an era when “solidarity” is less reliable and antisemitic threats are rising from all directions.