The Dispatch Podcast

Episode: The German Firewall Is Coming Down | Interview: James Kirchick

Date: March 3, 2025

Overview

This episode features host Jamie Weinstein in conversation with journalist and author James Kirchick. The main focus is Germany’s recent federal elections, the rise of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, transatlantic tensions, and the shifting attitudes toward political alliances and migration policy in Europe. The conversation also touches on American and European right-wing dynamics, the role of speech restrictions, online influence (notably by figures like Elon Musk), and the risks associated with unraveling Western alliances post-WWII.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. JD Vance's Munich Security Conference Speech

[02:49–06:17]

• Kirchick’s View: While supporting the substance of JD Vance’s criticism of harsh European speech laws, Kirchick strongly criticizes Vance for raising these points at a high-stakes security conference, arguing it misplaces priorities:
  • "This is a security conference... founded in the heat of the Cold War to rally the Western world... for the Vice President to say the greatest threat to Europe is not Russia... but from within, and to describe that threat... as speech laws... is profoundly wrong." — James Kirchick [03:30]
• Allegation of AfD Endorsement: Kirchick condemns Vance’s explicit call to bring down the "firewalls" (taboo on coalitions with the far right):
  • "That was a... unprecedented overt intervention in German politics." — James Kirchick [05:55]

2. German Elections: Outcomes and Shifts

[06:17–11:08]

• Results:
  • CDU/CSU (center-right): ~28–29% (largest share)
  • AfD (far right): 21% (highest far-right showing post-WWII)
  • SPD (center-left): 15.5% (worst in 150+ years)
  • Greens: 11%
  • The Free Democrats (classical liberals): 4.3% (fell below 5% threshold, out of parliament)
  • Far-left and hybrid parties found support, especially in the east
• East/West Divide: AfD & other anti-system parties thrive in the economically “left behind” east.

3. Party Landscape: The CDU vs. AfD

[11:08–15:01]

• CDU’s History and Shift: Traditionally center-right, pro-Western, pro-defense, but statist economically. Under Merkel, the CDU moved to the center/left (especially on migration), fueling AfD’s rise.
• AfD’s Roots: Started as anti-euro libertarians, transformed in 2015 into an ethnonationalist, anti-migrant party.
• Radicalization:
  • "It became more attractive to Holocaust revisionists... people who thought that Germany needed to get over its past." — James Kirchick [14:20]
  • Close alignment with Kremlin positions on Ukraine.
• Marine Le Pen Reference:
  • "So extreme is the AfD that not even the French far right politician Marine Le Pen will associate with it." — Jamie Weinstein, quoting Kirchick’s NYT editorial [15:01]

4. What Sets the AfD Apart? Origins, Extremism, and International Reactions

[16:40–21:21]

• Unprecedented Extremism: Unlike other far-right parties in Europe (which have moderated), AfD has grown more radical and is uniquely tainted by German history:
  • "Other far right parties ... have moderated over time. The AfD ... has become more extreme over time." — James Kirchick [16:40]
• Elon Musk, American Right, and Misperceptions:
  • Many US conservatives are uninformed about AfD’s extremism; some are drawn by its anti-migration stance but overlook pro-Russian, revisionist, and anti-American elements.
• CDU’s Strategic Challenge: The CDU’s move right post-Merkel has eliminated most substantive migration debate between it and AfD, but trust is lost among former supporters.

5. Firewall Debate: Cooperation and Boundaries

[24:11–29:49]

• Debates on Party Cooperation: Critics accused CDU leader Merz of “tearing down the firewall” when relying on AfD votes for some migration-control proposals, but Kirchick finds such rhetoric exaggerated:
  • "My understanding... is that you don't form an actual governing coalition with the AfD. And [Merz] has repeatedly said that will not happen." — James Kirchick [27:10]
• Transatlantic Fallout: US figures (JD Vance, Donald Trump) undermining pro-NATO conservatives in Europe by supporting parties like AfD.

6. Online Influence & Elon Musk’s Role

[29:49–31:44]

• Elon Musk’s Advocacy for European Far Right:
  • Possibly “too online,” shaped by social media influencers, sharing and amplifying right-wing narratives.
  • “That’s the charitable explanation... The less charitable explanation is they really do want to see a massive political realignment in Europe.” — James Kirchick [30:07]

7. Romania: Democratic Crisis and Russian Influence

[31:44–34:19]

• Vance’s Reference to Romania: Upstart, pro-Russian candidate’s campaign derailed by allegations of Russian financial ties—recently substantiated, raising questions about electoral fairness and foreign meddling.
• Tate Brothers' Release: Speculation about dubious US diplomatic priorities if the US intervened for controversial figures.

8. Debates on Speech, Crime, and Far-Right Figures in the UK

[35:22–39:35]

• Speech Laws Context: Germany has stringent, long-standing hate speech regulations, occasionally ensnaring AfD radicals.
• UK Scandals: Discussion of “rape gangs” and figures like Tommy Robinson—Kirchick sees the left’s stigmatization of legitimate debate fueling the rise of unsavory far-right populists.
  • "[Robinson is] a total thug... racist and just not a respectable person who's... engaged in violent street violence..." — James Kirchick [37:32]

9. Migration Policy: Sacralization vs. Pragmatism

[39:35–43:58]

• Sacralization of Migration: Kirchick blames the political establishment for treating migration as untouchable, leading to the populist backlash:
  • "The problem is that the political establishment said that they were not legitimate issues to be debated." — James Kirchick [41:03]
• Denmark as a Model: Praises Denmark’s cross-party migration consensus for blunting far-right extremes.

10. The Importance of Western Alliances and the Danger of Unraveling

[43:58–48:35]

• Conservative Case for NATO: Kirchick warns of the grave risk in destabilizing US-Europe security infrastructure:
  • "I see that as being the greatest military alliance in human history... It has ensured... the greatest period of human liberty and prosperity." — James Kirchick [45:20]
• Bipartisan Legacy at Risk:
  • "I can understand how conservatives can support this. This is a very unconservative, radical thing to be doing, to be trying to destroy transatlantic alliance..." — James Kirchick [48:06]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the AfD’s Distinctiveness:
  "[AfD is] not like the vast majority of other far right parties in Europe ... those parties have moderated over time. The AfD ... has become more extreme over time." — James Kirchick [16:40]

• On Endorsing AfD:
  "To see an American president say that the firewalls should come down across Europe ... I saw as a tacit endorsement of the AfD." — James Kirchick [05:28]

• On NATO and the Conservative Tradition:
  "I always considered the definition of a small c Conservative to be someone who has reverence and respect for institutions that have stood the test of time ... I see post war Europe... as being the greatest example of American foreign policy ever." — James Kirchick [44:58, 47:22]

• On the Left’s Mistakes:
  "They sacralized migration ... treated immigration as almost like a constitutional right up there with freedom of speech, the right to bear arms ..." — James Kirchick [41:20]

• On Elon Musk’s Influence:
  "He just goes to the furthest end and finds the most inflammatory voice ... And it's kind of... childish and very simplistic." — James Kirchick [38:46]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:49] — JD Vance’s Munich speech: impact and controversy
• [06:31] — German election results & meaning
• [11:17] — CDU’s positioning, history, and Merkel’s migration policy legacy
• [16:40] — Why AfD is fundamentally different from other EU far right
• [21:21] — How Merkel enabled AfD’s rise; “firewall” history
• [24:11] — Are AfD voters all extremists? The distinction between political leaders and base
• [26:36] — CDU and AfD: migration policy contrasts and voter trust
• [29:49] — Why Musk and Vance support AfD; role of social media influence
• [31:44] — Romania: Russian election interference and Western response
• [35:22] — Free speech, UK “rape gang” scandals, Tommy Robinson
• [39:35] — Migration “sacralization” and Denmark’s model
• [43:58] — What’s at stake if post-WWII transatlantic infrastructure unravels?
• [44:58] — Conservative case for preserving NATO
• [48:33] — Closing remarks

Summary Takeaways

This episode provides an in-depth analysis of recent German political shifts, the rise of radical right parties like the AfD, and the resulting threats to democratic stability and Western alliances. Kirchick’s central arguments urge caution: warning against US politicians’ flirtation with far-right European parties, critiquing both liberal and conservative missteps surrounding migration and debate, and calling for preservation and pragmatic reform of longstanding Western institutions—especially NATO and the transatlantic alliance.

For further reading:

• Jamie Kirchick’s recent editorial in The New York Times on AfD
• David Leonhardt on Danish migration policy (NYT Magazine)