The Dispatch Podcast – "The Manchurian Peace Plan | Roundtable"

Date: November 28, 2025
Panel: Host Steve Hayes, Kevin Williamson, Jonah Goldberg, Megan McArdle

Overview

This episode dissects an extraordinary week in international diplomacy regarding Russia’s war on Ukraine. The panel investigates a leaked pro-Russian peace proposal reportedly drafted by Trump advisers, revelations of direct coaching by U.S. officials to Russia, the implications for NATO, and how American domestic politics connects to these events. The episode transitions to an accessible but nuanced analysis of the U.S. economy and closes in typical Roundtable fashion with a lighthearted Thanksgiving "not worth your time" debate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Consequential Week in Ukraine Diplomacy

• [01:23-05:35] Host Steve Hayes:
  • Summarizes the emergence of a "28-point peace proposal," developed by Trump advisers and nearly identical to Russia’s own demands.
  • The plan includes restrictions on the Ukrainian military, ceding of Ukrainian territory, ban on Ukraine joining certain international organizations, and re-admittance of Russia to global bodies.
  • Even Republican officials publicly objected.
  • U.S. administration walked back its support somewhat, while apparently running foreign policy on conflicting tracks.
  • Quote:
    "A long week, a frustrating week, I would say an embarrassing week if you're an American." (Steve Hayes, [05:22])

2. Impact on NATO and U.S. Sovereignty

• Kevin Williamson [05:35-08:20]:

  • Warns that conceding to Russia's terms, especially on NATO enlargement, puts Moscow in charge of American foreign policy—“just indefensible.”
  • Criticizes the "unserious people" running U.S. diplomacy, noting “at least three different schmucks working on three different foreign policies.”
  • Quote:
    “We are essentially looking to relinquish a portion of our sovereignty when it comes to foreign policy. In exchange for what, exactly?” (Kevin Williamson, [07:02])

• Jonah Goldberg [08:20-14:03]:

  • Notes the draft plan was likely “poorly translated from the original Russian.”
  • Outlines how the new approach would cast the U.S. as a “neutral mediator” between NATO and Russia, fundamentally recasting America’s traditional leadership role in the alliance.
  • Sees root causes as a “serious crush on Russia” in the Trump camp and enduring contempt for NATO and European allies.
  • Quote:
    “This idea of making America this sort of neutral third party between NATO and Russia is quite literally the foremost foreign policy goal of Russia... since NATO was created.” (Jonah Goldberg, [11:08])

3. Comparisons to Trump’s Middle East Policy

• Megan McArdle [14:03-15:52]:
  • Argues the administration inappropriately extrapolated from its Middle East achievements like the Abraham Accords.
  • Points out that Russia/Ukraine is completely different from “the New York real estate world” of Gulf state dynasties; “assuming that you can repeat that trick with Russia is lunatic.”
  • Notable Moment:
    “It's a kind of a, you know, it's like a clown show and a lot of the performers are disgraces to whatever clown college they graduated from.” (Megan McArdle, [16:41])

4. Why Should Americans Care?

• [19:44-22:09] Steve and Kevin discuss J.D. Vance’s view that Americans shouldn’t focus on Ukraine:
  • Kevin rebuts, invoking the old isolationist “fill potholes at home” argument, noting that neglecting international leadership creates costly power vacuums.
  • America’s handling of Ukraine, he suggests, serves as a “trial run” for deterring China.
  • Quote:
    “...history has demonstrated... that saving a few pennies on not looking to your national security... is very, very expensive in the long run.” (Kevin Williamson, [23:13])

5. Corruption, Influence, and Personal Gain

• Jonah Goldberg [24:55-30:11]:

  • Reviews reports that Trump adviser Steve Witkoff was directly coaching a Putin aide to win Trump’s approval for Russia’s plan.
  • Suggests these behaviors stem more from ambition and self-interest than active treason.
  • Quote:
    “For it to actually be treason or sedition or any of that kind of stuff... Witkoff would have to buy the premise that Russia is our enemy... I just don't think Trump and those guys see it that way.” (Jonah Goldberg, [28:43])

• Megan McArdle [31:59-36:34]:

  • Argues the American public is numb to—even blasé about—political corruption, with both parties eroding norms since Watergate.
  • Draws parallels to Clinton-era and Biden family controversies.
  • Quote:
    “...I actually think these procedural violations matter a lot. I think civic norms matter a lot. It's not that I don't think that the public should care. It's that I think they don't care.” (Megan McArdle, [34:00])

6. U.S. Economy: Stuck in the Headlights

• [39:54-44:50] Megan McArdle:

  • Describes the U.S. economy as paralyzed with uncertainty: hiring/firing freezes, elevated inflation, and an artificially gummed-up housing market.
  • Criticizes Trump administration’s on-again/off-again tariffs and their economic impact.
  • Notable analogy: “The US Economy feels to me sort of like a deer frozen in the headlights.” ([40:51])

• Kevin Williamson [45:20-49:40]:

  • Exposes the illusion vs. reality of affordability—"cheap money makes prices go up," pointing to damaging long-term effects of policy gimmicks like 50-year mortgages.
  • Quote:
    “For the Trump administration... there’s this ongoing contest between affordability and the illusion of affordability.” ([45:20])

• Jonah Goldberg [51:04-56:59]:

  • Explains why “affordability” resonates: rise of the “subscription economy,” record household debt, growing credit card and auto loan delinquencies.
  • Notes how incoherent tariff policy is psychologically unsettling to voters because it seems self-indulgently driven by Trump’s personal obsessions.
  • Quote:
    “There’s a certain panic that comes ... when you feel like your feet are in cinder blocks and you’re going under financially.” ([54:38])

7. Thanksgiving 'Not Worth Your Time': Disputed Dishes Edition

• [59:57-69:08] Holiday fun segment
  • Megan McArdle: Sweet potato casserole with marshmallows – “Marshmallows are disgusting ... not worth the calories.” ([60:57])
  • Kevin Williamson: A bizarre Southern cherry/Cool Whip/cream cheese concoction known as “pink slice.”
  • Jonah Goldberg: “Marshmallows have no place in savory cooking ... candy yams are a waste of my time and plate space, too.” ([65:10])
  • Steve Hayes: Cranberry sauce—despite his Wisconsin roots, “cranberry sauce is terrible. And every Thanksgiving table would be better off without [it].” ([67:09])
  • Megan’s spirited reply:
    “Your level of wrongness has escaped the stratosphere and has entered low earth orbit.” ([67:35])

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On the U.S. as a NATO 'Mediator':
  “This idea of making America this sort of neutral third party between NATO and Russia is quite literally the foremost foreign policy goal of Russia...”
  — Jonah Goldberg ([11:08])

• On Public Apathy Toward Corruption:
  “It's not that I don't think that the public should care. It's that I think they don't care.”
  — Megan McArdle ([34:00])

• On the Economy:
  “The US Economy feels to me sort of like a deer frozen in the headlights.”
  — Megan McArdle ([40:51])

• Thanksgiving foods debate:
  “Marshmallows are gross and I do not like marshmallows ... marshmallows have no place in savory cooking whatsoever.”
  — Jonah Goldberg ([65:10])

• On the 'illusion of affordability':
  “There’s this ongoing contest between affordability and the illusion of affordability.”
  — Kevin Williamson ([45:20])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:23
  — Steve’s diplomatic week summary: leaked plan, U.S.-Russia-Ukraine dynamics
• 05:35
  — Kevin on the stakes for NATO & American sovereignty
• 08:20
  — Jonah on NATO, Russian ambitions, and Trumpism
• 14:03
  — Megan on why Middle East tactics don’t work with Russia
• 19:44
  — JD Vance’s “why does this matter for us?”: panel’s rebuttal
• 24:55
  — Coaching Russia: Witkoff/Trump adviser revelations
• 31:59
  — Corruption, public apathy, proceduralism
• 39:54
  — Economy: mixed signals and sclerosis
• 59:57
  — Thanksgiving “Not Worth Your Time” Thanksgiving foods battle

Conclusion

This packed Dispatch Roundtable episode unpacks a historic, and in their view tragic, week of U.S. foreign policy confusion and slouching toward Russian preferences in Ukraine. The hosts are blunt—this moment is a profound break with American diplomatic tradition and an embarrassing abdication of U.S. interests, driven in part by personal ambition and a lack of seriousness. The conversation then pivots to the affordability crisis, exposing daft economic policies, and closes with heated Thanksgiving food takes—a reminder that, even in weighty times, American arguments over cranberry sauce are eternal.

For listeners short on time, see:

• [05:35] — NATO and sovereignty
• [14:03] — Why Russia isn’t the Middle East
• [19:44] — Ukraine’s importance for U.S. interests
• [24:55] — Corruption and Russia coaching
• [39:54] — The “frozen” economy
• [59:57] — Thanksgiving foods debate