The Dispatch Podcast: The Right’s Intellectual Thought Crisis (Roundtable)

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Steve Hayes
Panel: Michael Warren, John McCormick, Charles Hillu

Overview

In this early-week roundtable, Steve Hayes and Dispatch colleagues Michael Warren, John McCormick, and Charles Hillu discuss profound shifts within the American conservative intellectual movement. The focus is on the turmoil inside venerable institutions like the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI) and the Heritage Foundation, exploring ideological realignment, institutional gatekeeping, and the elevation of populist voices like Tucker Carlson. Later, they examine changing dynamics on the political right, including the growing willingness of some Republican elected officials to publicly criticize the Trump administration. The episode closes with a (slightly tongue-in-cheek) cultural segment on airplane dress codes.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

I. Shifts in Conservative Intellectual Institutions

a. The ISI as a Microcosm (04:06–22:30)

• Background: ISI, a 75-year-old institution, has been a training ground for conservative journalists and academics (08:16–09:17).
• Recent Changes:
  • Reporting shows a marked shift under current president Johnny Burtka (formerly of The American Conservative), emphasizing post-liberal and nationalist ideas over classical liberalism (04:06–08:06, 09:17–14:17).
  • Traditional ISI role: "the convener of debates" among different conservative schools (13:03–15:33).
• Ideological Gatekeeping:
  • Under Burtka, ISI now "privileges" post-liberal voices and demotes traditional conservatives (09:17–12:34).
  • “I would never invite Kevin Williamson to speak at an ISI conference, regardless of the price. His contempt for the working class is everything that's wrong with the conservative movement.” — John quoting Johnny Burtka (20:14).
  • Extensively elevates Tucker Carlson as a mentor and role model, e.g., student journalism retreats and fellowships (15:50–19:01).
  • Alex Jones's presence at a student journalism event with Tucker Carlson signals institutional priorities (15:50–19:01).
• Gatekeeping vs. Debate:
  • The shift represents not just pluralism but active gatekeeping: “It’s not just a debate about neocons vs. paleocons; it's really about... who’s gatekept, who’s elevated, who’s blacklisted.” — John McCormick (17:53–22:30).

b. The Bigger Picture: Heritage Foundation and Board Overlap (26:25–39:09)

• Cascade Effect & Rot:
  • Several organizations (Heritage, ISI, Hillsdale) have overlapping board members—a deliberate realignment connected by personalities like Kevin Roberts and funding relationships with Tucker Carlson (34:09–39:09).
  • “This is no accident. This has happened at the Heritage Foundation. This shift to the right, this cozying up to Tucker Carlson… None of this was a mistake.” — Steve Hayes (34:09).
• Concern about Truth and Mission:
  • The tension is not purely ideological but about devotion to truth versus a nihilistic, conspiratorial approach embodied by Carlson and Jones (31:46–34:09).
  • “Tucker does this on a pretty routine basis... what Tucker Carlson does is seek truth when what he really does is seek division and doubt.” — Michael Warren (31:46–34:09).

c. The Stakes: Influence on Future Public Life (22:30–24:19)

• Alumni Impact: Many prominent journalists, commentators, even a Supreme Court justice are ISI alumni: "That's why this stuff really, really matters." — Michael Warren (22:52).

II. The Political Right: Growing Divides and Criticism of the Trump Administration (43:01–55:23)

• Increasing Public Criticism:

  • Host Steve Hayes outlines a recent rise in rhetorical challenges to Trump, particularly regarding tariffs, foreign policy (Venezuelan "boat strikes," Russia/Ukraine), and handling of scandals (Epstein files) (43:01–45:57).
  • Charles Hillu is skeptical about true change: “I think that in, say, January, February of 2025, when President Trump was at his height... there was very little criticism from elected Republicans" (45:57). Recent complaints are mostly anonymous or attributable to retirees; little substantive resistance from those with ongoing political futures.

• Is This Talk or Action?

  • John McCormick: “I think mostly just talk. And I would assume, I mean, it's basically following the trajectory of Trump's first term.” (49:58)
  • Discontent among some Republicans is driven by economic malaise, unpopular enforcement measures, and troubling foreign policy actions—but the panel doubts these complaints will translate to major action.

• Military Strikes and Congressional Response:

  • New revelation: possible war crimes during Caribbean anti-drug operations—will Republicans press for real oversight?
  • “Will there be any follow-through? That’s the real question.” — John McCormick (52:16).
  • Michael Warren: Friction is growing due to lack of communication from White House; possible breaking point if information remains siloed. “I think this is different.” (52:42)

III. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• On the ISI Shift:

  • “It's not just happening in one institution within the conservative movement, it's happening across the institutions.” — Michael Warren (04:06)
  • “Everyone believes in gatekeeping at some level or wants to sort of shape the debate.” — John McCormick (24:57)

• On Tucker Carlson and Truth:

  • “There's such nihilism in Tucker's approach to the truth… He preys on the tendency right now… to essentially doubt what has been received.” — Michael Warren (31:46)

• On the Implications:

  • “A lot of these people who go through these programs go on to have influence within our public discourse and in public life… That's why this stuff really, really matters.” — Michael Warren (22:52)

• On Political Accountability:

  • “Rarely do we find substantive action from the concerns that they're expressing publicly...” — Charles Hillu (45:57)

• On Congressional Resistance to Trump:

  • “I think that they're... hiding behind a longtime tradition than actively inhibiting Trump from doing something.” — Charles Hillu (45:57)

IV. Lighthearted Segment: Airplane Dress Codes and Public Decorum (60:48–69:33)

• Secretary of Transportation launches a “civility campaign” for air travel, including suggestions to “dress with respect” (60:48).
• Panel confesses personal travel attire habits:
  • “I am a proponent of… dressing like you know people will see you when you walk outside of the door.” — Charles Hillu (61:11)
  • John McCormick always dresses the same, usually in a sport coat: “Life is much more simple and you have to think about one less thing about what you're going to wear.” (63:02)
  • Michael Warren jokes: “I always wear my baggy cookie monster pajama pants, my monster energy drink T shirt and my camo Crocs.” (64:54)
• Broader commentary:
  • Public standards for dress have eroded in general, not just on airplanes.
  • Panel mildly supports “dress like people will see you,” but doubts government campaigns will change behavior: “I don't feel like people pay attention to what the government tells them to do on all sorts of things.” — Michael Warren (67:43)
  • Quick digression about “the decline of standards” in Congressional dress (68:59).

Notable Timestamps

• [04:06] — Michael Warren outlines the ISI story and the shift toward post-liberalism.
• [09:17] — John McCormick defines "post-liberalism" for the layperson.
• [15:50] — The Tucker Carlson/Alex Jones student retreat incident.
• [20:14] — The Kevin Williamson ban from ISI, evidence of ideological gatekeeping.
• [22:52] — Michael Warren lists high-profile ISI alumni.
• [31:46] — Michael Warren discusses the nihilism of the new “truth” standard.
• [34:09] — Steve describes overlap in board members/institutional drift.
• [45:57] — Charles addresses Republican criticism of Trump and its limitations.
• [49:58] — John discusses Trump’s polling, Republican worries, and likely futility of their critiques.
• [52:16] — John on the seriousness of congressional response to foreign policy controversies.
• [60:48] — The panel’s discussion of airplane dress codes and societal standards.

Tone

The conversation is frank, occasionally self-deprecating, and preserves the Dispatch’s signature mix of wonky policy discussion and accessible, sometimes gently sardonic, cultural commentary. The hosts and panelists speak as insiders with deep experience but make repeated efforts to define terms and provide context for broader audiences.

Final Thoughts

This roundtable offers a deep dive into a significant intellectual and institutional struggle on the American right, illuminating how shifts in gatekeeping, funding, and institutional culture may influence the next generation of conservative intellectuals and public officials. The segment on rising criticism of Trump from elected Republicans underscores the limits of such dissent within the current party structure. Finally, the attire discussion brings welcome levity and illustrates how questions about standards—whether in dress or debate—run through every aspect of contemporary public life.