The Dispatch Podcast: "Three More Years" (Jan 23, 2026)

Host: Steve Hayes
Panelists: Jonah Goldberg, Sarah Isger, David French, Mike Warren

Overview

One year into President Trump’s second term, Steve Hayes leads a roundtable discussion with Jonah Goldberg, Sarah Isger, David French, and Mike Warren. The group reflects on what surprised (or didn’t) about Trump’s return to power, analyzes the evolving nature of American governance and political norms, and debates what changes are likely to outlast his presidency. Foreign policy, institutional integrity, political discourse, and even podcast housekeeping take center stage in this wide-ranging, incisive conversation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Second Term: Surprising or Predictable?

• Shocking but Not Surprising:

  • Jonah Goldberg [02:05]: "The brazenness of it, the shamelessness of it, but not necessarily surprising."
  • Expected: More emboldened, surrounded by loyalists, not just a replay of his first term
  • Surprised by: Trump’s effectiveness on the border, especially with mass deportation, largely through executive order and with significant input from Stephen Miller.

• Chaos with New Shapes:

  • David French [04:26]: "As chaotic as I expected, but in unexpected ways."
  • Trump delivered on border enforcement but squandered those successes politically amid chaos and "berserker rage."
  • Unexpected foreign aggression (e.g., toward Canada, Mexico, Greenland affair), and single-minded foreign policy decisions like joining Israel against Iran.

• Lack of Legislative Achievement

  • Sarah Isger [08:35]: Surprised by absence of legislative accomplishments despite holding Congress, unlike past presidents.
  • Everything achieved so far is through executive order—"legal vaporware" likely to vanish with a new administration.

• Internal vs. External Chaos

  • Internally, the administration is much more unified than Trump’s first term. Credit given to Susie Wiles as a highly effective Chief of Staff.
  • Not as much high-turnover drama, but "retribution tour" against domestic enemies ongoing and more publicly assertive.

2. The Role of Staff & Institutional Advice

• Chief of Staff’s Role Contested

  • Sarah Isger [12:18]: Chief of Staff should execute, not obstruct President’s will; not their job to overrule or “protect” the country from the President’s desires.
  • Steve Hayes [15:04] pushes back: Advisers should provide honest, expert counter-advice—even if it collides with the President’s wishes.
  • David French [17:11]: Raised surprise at the "level of corruption" in the administration.

• Institutions as a Check

  • Mike Warren [17:24]: Market forces and public opinion have checked Trump’s excesses more effectively than Congress or party.
  • Trump cowed by adverse market reactions, particularly about tariffs, showing that "markets as an institution remain sort of undefeated."

3. What Lasts After Trump? (Norms, Structures, and Lasting Effects)

• Policy vs. Institutional Change

  • Sarah Isger & David French [26:55; 30:06]: Executive actions are ephemeral, but the effects on international alliances, domestic political norms, and departmental integrity are potentially lasting.
  • Allies no longer assume the U.S. is a reliable "good guy"; now plan for instability and unpredictability.

• Coarsening of Discourse, Bipartisan Copycat Behavior

  • Mike Warren [32:01]: "The coarsening of our political discourse" now infects both parties — with Democrats increasingly mirroring the Trumpian style.
  • Trump as "catalyst," accelerating disrespect and meanness in civic debate; profanity and vulgarity normalized—even expected.

• Loss of Intellectual Conservatism

  • Jonah Goldberg [35:16; 38:37]: "We now have two essentially progressive parties—one right, one left. ... America needs a conservative party."
  • Trumpism has made "dogmatic conservatism and libertarianism" almost fringe; repairs will take decades.

• Enduring Damage to Institutional Memory

  • DOJ, HHS, CDC, and other institutions may be permanently altered in culture and capacity; new precedents of executive power weaken Congressional authority.

• The Weirdness & Celebration of Oddity

  • David French [43:51]: Trump's oddness has empowered a celebration of "weirdness, conspiratorial thinking" among political subcultures.
  • Ongoing question: Will this spirit of odd politics persist once Trump is gone?

4. Foreign Policy: Are We Still the “Good Guys”?

Central Question

• Steve Hayes’s European Interview Anecdote [46:20]:

  • European journalist: “We used to think of Americans as the good guys. I don’t know if you are anymore.”
  • Hayes: “I don’t know if we’re the good guys anymore.”

• Allies No Longer Trust the U.S.

  • David French [49:05]: “We are always one election away from this berserkerness.” Allies are making long-term decisions not to rely on U.S. consistency.
  • Mike Warren & Sarah Isger [51:35; 53:44]: Breakdown of economic order (tariffs) and cultural hegemony as clear signals of change.
  • Jonah Goldberg [54:59]: "America seemed really mean and gratuitously mean for most of the year for tens, hundreds of millions of people."

• Significance of Mark Carney’s Speech [49:05]:

  • The term “rupture” rather than “transition” signals an irreversible break in global trust.

5. When Will Trump Become a Lame Duck? (Lightning Round)

• Jonah Goldberg [62:35]: After the primaries—when Trump can no longer threaten GOP officeholders via endorsements.
• Sarah Isger: When Trump can no longer keep potential rivals (e.g. Vance) scared, as the “crest of the wave crashes over their heads."
• Mike Warren [63:56]: "The day Donald Trump dies."
• David French: Endorses Jonah’s response.

6. Podcast Meta: The "Not Worth Your Time" Segment Civil War

• Sarah’s Complaint [66:06]: Laments changes to “Not Worth Your Time,” accusing Steve Hayes of ruining her trademarked segment with trivial topics.
• Steve’s Rebuttal [67:01]: Plays archived clips of Sarah herself discussing brats, mustard, and snack foods to show she was just as off-topic.
• Resolution [70:53]: Sarah concedes and retracts most of her prior “vitriol.” Steve proposes alternating between old-style (news-adjacent) and new-style (discursive, non-news) segments to accommodate all panelists and audience tastes.
• Listener Engagement: Invitation for audience topic submissions (roundtabledispatch.com).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jonah Goldberg [02:05]: “Shocking, but not surprising.”
• Sarah Isger [12:04]: “That’s the job. ... The chief of staff is a staff member. They execute.”
• Mike Warren [17:24]: “It does seem that markets as an institution remain sort of undefeated.”
• David French [26:55]: “With Donald Trump’s presidency, you have very impermanent policies, but you have potentially permanent effects.”
• David French [30:06]: “It is now an exclamation point on ... almost imperialistic sort of view.”
• Jonah Goldberg [36:30]: “The relevant question is how many Americans want a fascist or fascist-like president.”
• Sarah Isger [43:26]: “When I tell soldiers [in America] to do something, they ask why.”
• Steve Hayes [46:42]: “I don’t know if we’re the good guys anymore. We’re certainly not behaving like it now.”
• Mike Warren [53:56]: “The day that Donald Trump dies [is when he’ll be a lame duck].”
• Steve Hayes [70:04]: “You couldn’t get the Afghanistan Taliban piece done, but you could do this [mustard/brat research].”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:05] - Jonah Goldberg on the difference between expected and actual chaos.
• [04:26] - David French on unpredictability and missed political opportunities.
• [08:35] - Sarah Isger critiques legislative inaction and highlights administrative (non-legislative) focus.
• [12:18] - Debate over Chief of Staff duties.
• [17:24] - Mike Warren on market forces as a check on Trump.
• [26:55] - Sarah and David discuss executive actions as temporary, but norm-breaking as permanent.
• [32:01] - Mike Warren addresses the “coarsening” of American discourse.
• [35:16] - Jonah Goldberg on the transformation of conservatism and enduring damage.
• [46:20] - Steve Hayes recounts “Are we the good guys?” from a European interviewer.
• [49:05] - David French: How global alliances view the U.S. now.
• [53:56] - Sarah and Mike on new world order vs. old.
• [54:59] - Jonah on the international consequences of U.S. actions.
• [62:35] - Panel lightning round: when does Trump become a lame duck?
• [66:06+] - “Not Worth Your Time” segment debate, with receipts.

Final Thoughts

Summary:
The episode captures a moment of political inflection—where the shock of Trump’s second term has worn off, and the panelists grapple with what will remain, good or ill, after he’s gone. They agree that while executive orders may not outlast Trump, the erosion of norms, institutional trust, and U.S. global standing is likely permanent—or at least, deeply felt for a generation. The discussion is self-aware, at times confessional, and not without humor—even as it delivers a sobering take on the fate of American democracy, conservatism, and the "good guy" role on the world stage.

Tone:
Candid, conversational, wry, and occasionally self-deprecating, the discussion balances sharp analysis with relatable banter and meta-commentary about their own work.

Have a suggestion for Not Worth Your Time?
Email: roundtable@thedispatch.com

Want more?
Check the show notes for the panelists’ picks for Trump’s most influential first-year advisers!