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[00:00]
Podcast Announcer
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[01:23]
Rugile Dautite
I was in that Eurovision Song. I was worshipping the thunder God and I was dressed as a thunder goddess with white tunic and red cape.
[01:38]
Colm Flynn
From the outset it looked like life was going great. Beautiful looking on television, very well known here in your home country of Lithuania. I mean you were winning in life.
[01:49]
Rugile Dautite
It looked like that. For from outside inside I felt tortured emotionally. I felt kind of depression. I felt strange influences in my physical and spiritual body, like maybe I was possessed. Oh my God, what did I do?
[02:18]
Colm Flynn
You're listening to Heart and Soul from the documentary on the BBC World Service. I'm Colm Flynn and I've come to Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. And just to warn you, this program does contain references to the occult and to drug use. The sun is shining through an open window as I sit in the living room of one of the country's best known singers, listening as she plays the piano.
[03:00]
Rugile Dautite
My name is and I'm from Lithuania. Vilnius,
[03:08]
Colm Flynn
Lithuania is a predominantly Catholic country with around three quarters of the population identifying as Catholic. But Rugilay did not grow up with the faith at home.
[03:18]
Rugile Dautite
Only my grand grandmother was Catholic, but she did not explain the faith to her children, my grandma, and to her grandchildren, my mother and aunt. She did not teach the faith, but she would pray herself all the time rosaries, probably many rosaries per day, and sometimes would go even twice to the Holy Mass. But she did not teach us about her faith, probably because of Soviet Union.
[03:51]
Colm Flynn
For decades Lithuania was under Soviet Rule. The country restored its independence in 1990. But during the Soviet period, religious life was heavily restricted. Churches were closed or controlled. Religious education was curtailed and and priests, religious and lay believers could face harassment, imprisonment or even exile for openly practicing their faith.
[04:17]
Rugile Dautite
In Soviet Union, you just could not get high positions for your work for the faith. You would be laughed at at school when my mother was young.
[04:27]
Colm Flynn
Instead, Rugele says her grandmother and mother became involved in occult and esoteric practices.
[04:35]
Rugile Dautite
Occultism and the religions of the east were highly forbidden. You could not get this literature, this information. But my grandfather, my mother's father, worked in the National Library as the second person after the director of the library. So he had possibility to get those books which were called the Yellow literature. And he brought the Yellow literature to my mother. And there, when she was 16, she read about reincarnation, about Hinduism concepts. And later on, when Lithuania already became free in 1991, suddenly there was a boom of occultism in the whole country. In all the post Soviet countries which were just liberated, suddenly came thousands and thousands of witches, witch doctors and readers, of cards and of palms and astrologers. Like it was so, so popular. And that's how my family, the women of my family, got into New Age.
[05:48]
Colm Flynn
New Age is a broad term for a loose collection of spiritual ideas and practices. It often draws on Eastern religions, alternative healing, meditation, astrology, mysticism and beliefs about spiritual energy. There is no central leader, sacred text or fixed set of beliefs. People often combine different ideas and practices in their own way. And this was the spiritual world that surrounded Rugile as she grew up.
[06:17]
Rugile Dautite
When I was small child, less than 12 years old, because I remember we still lived in this house, in the second floor and in the kitchen there. I asked her, I remember very well, mother, why there are so many religions? What do they mean, like why? She answered to me, God is one, but he has many faces. So he appeared to people in India in such ways that they would understand because their culture is different. People there are different. Then he appeared the God to African people as they would understand. And here he appeared in like, in Christianity, like. Like in this way. She told me, this all is the same God. So my whole interest, what spiritual world, since my childhood, I believed always in God. And I wanted to get to know God. And this was the path that my mother led me to.
[07:11]
Colm Flynn
Sitting in this very house where we are speaking today, Rugile remembers sitting on the floor and flicking through books about occultism and esoteric spirituality.
[07:22]
Rugile Dautite
As a small girl, I was already reading the dictionary of occultism. Really learning different things of occultism. I was looking for happiness and. And for peace.
[07:33]
Colm Flynn
And she says she was fascinated by this new world that was opening up in front of her.
[07:39]
Rugile Dautite
New age is make your own truth, make your own God. People believe that they can themselves determine what is truth. In New Age, you can take any God from any religion and put into your belief system. That's what I did. I worshiped gods of Ireland, of Celtic gods, African gods, Umbande religion, gods from South America, of course, Jesus and Mary. I worship.
[08:08]
Colm Flynn
You would pray to gods of many different religions and faiths. Yes, pagan ones and old Celtic, Irish gods. And it would be a mix and a blend of all of them and
[08:18]
Rugile Dautite
that what is a new age. I also worship the Hindu gods and old Lithuanian gods because I wanted something each of them can give to us. It is said that each of them can strengthen certain, certain area of your life or your qualities, make you important in this or in that way. So I worshiped many gods because I went it a lot.
[08:39]
Colm Flynn
In her 20s, Rugele moved to Amsterdam to study jazz music. And she began singing at festivals and concerts across Europe. Here she is in 2018, performing at a music festival in the Hague, in the Netherlands.
[08:54]
Rugile Dautite
I can only give you love that lasts forever.
[09:04]
Colm Flynn
And at that time, she was also increasingly open about her spiritual beliefs. In an interview after that performance, she spoke about a recent trip to Hawaii.
[09:14]
Rugile Dautite
I had a very strong calling to go to Hawaii to meet the volcano, to meet the Pele, the goddess of volcano. So now I feel very much fire energy in me and less shyness and the only heart I own.
[09:30]
Colm Flynn
Rugile had begun practicing Santudaimi. Santudaimi is a religious movement that began in Brazil, in the Amazon region, in the early 20th century. It combines elements of Christianity, indigenous Amazonian traditions, Afro Brazilian spirituality and more.
[09:49]
Rugile Dautite
Well, I started to work as a shaman when I was maybe 28, 27 years old.
[09:57]
Colm Flynn
What is that? A shaman?
[09:59]
Rugile Dautite
Shaman is a medium between spirit world and human world.
[10:05]
Colm Flynn
Now you say you started to work at it. I mean, do you. Is there a job advert somewhere? How do you. How do you get the job as a shaman? Asking for a friend.
[10:13]
Rugile Dautite
I mean, many people would like to, especially those who visit shamans, but you cannot, if you do not get split special powers from the. I would bravely say from the devil.
[10:26]
Colm Flynn
Central to those ceremonies that she was involved in is a drug called Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is a psychoactive plant brew traditionally used in parts of the Amazon. It usually contains dmt, a powerful hallucinogenic substance and it can produce intense changes in perception, emotion and consciousness. And it can also carry physical and psychological risks, particularly for vulnerable people or when mixed with certain medications.
[10:57]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, ayahuasca is a drink, is a potion which is made of two herbs from South America Amazon forests. It is the worst taste. I never tasted anything so bad in my life. But it's very, very strong. It is one of the strongest psychedelic drugs and it puts you in such a state that you are your brain works as in a dream, but at the same time you are awake.
[11:25]
Colm Flynn
But at the time, obviously you thought it was the right thing to do. You believed it was a path to enlightenment. You thought this would lead you to enlightenment.
[11:35]
Rugile Dautite
Definitely. And I wanted, I was aiming for enlightenment because that's what New Age teaches, that you can get enlightened, you can become another Jesus, ascended master, and so on. So I wanted all that.
[11:50]
Podcast Announcer
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[12:44]
Colm Flynn
You're listening to Heart and Soul from the documentary on the BBC World Service. I'm Colm Flynn talking to Lithuanian singer Rugele Dautite about her story of growing up practicing occult religions. And when she was living in the Netherlands, Rugele says she began taking ayahuasca more and more often within her religious community. It was described as sacred medicine or sacred tea, a drink that could unlock hidden parts of the mind and bring enlightenment. And at this time, Rugile was also uploading online videos of herself singing spiritual songs like this one. When she was back in her home country of Lithuania. Rugila was becoming better known in mainstream entertainment too, appearing on programs like the Voice.
[13:57]
Rugile Dautite
Try you keep pushing me aside and I can break through. There's no talking to you.
[14:09]
Colm Flynn
On stage, she looked happy and confident singing on live TV in front of the nation. But Rugilia Says that she was living two lives, performing in public during the day and taking part in intense rituals at night.
[14:24]
Rugile Dautite
Do you believe in life after love? I go there dressed in white, in long white skirt, because that's the dress code. Long white dresses. All men are with white, white suits. We stand in the big circle where every person has a set position, which is with chalk, like set on the floor. So you have your own position. For seven to 10 hours, we do not eat and we dance and we sing special songs of Santo Daimesect in Portuguese. Very, very simple movements. To the left, to the right, to the left, to the right. You cannot, like for seven or eight hours or 12.
[15:10]
Colm Flynn
And are you drinking the psychedelic during these seven hours? Are you talking to each other or you're just praying and swaying?
[15:17]
Rugile Dautite
No, it's very strict. We are not talking. We just have to do what everybody's doing, to sing and dance in that set movement. And we drink ayahuasca three to five or even more times per night. When people drink it, they go into convulsions, they vomit, they lie down. Of course they cannot dance. So the dancing people remain only those who already do it for years and who practiced and can tolerate that, who, so to say, grew spiritually enough to stand and to sing and dance the whole night.
[15:54]
Colm Flynn
I've never done it. What does it feel like? What do you go through? Do you have an experience that is a spiritual experience? What do you feel?
[16:06]
Rugile Dautite
Ayahuasca is a highly illegal drug in Lithuania. It is punished as a heroin. So your brain functions when you drink ayahuasca, like in a dream, but you are awake. You see visions with open eyes. Many people see the same visions. You meet spiritual beings who really, it seems like, talk to you and tell you the knowledge, give you whatever knowledge, or scare you or love you or guide you. When people drink ayahuasca, they vomit basically throughout the night. They cannot even sit up. Many people who were atheists go out of these kind of sessions, definitely believing that there is a spiritual world, because
[16:50]
Colm Flynn
the experience they've had is so strong that they. It confirms for them there is something there.
[16:55]
Rugile Dautite
There is something. I was going worse and worse inside. I was tortured emotionally, spiritually, mentally. I had hysteria sometimes I felt terrible. I could not control my emotions. I felt like constant slight depression. I was unhappy. Next to all of this, you are
[17:38]
Colm Flynn
becoming more and more famous. I've seen the clips of you online singing as part of the national Eurovision Song Contest here in Lithuania, on a big stage, on live television, in front of a Big crowd. You were becoming successful, which is very hard to do in your profession.
[17:54]
Rugile Dautite
Now I am laughing, now I'm smiling because I remember that performance probably, which you saw. That was the depths of my New Age. I was in that Eurovision Song. I was worshiping the thunder God. Bravo. Bravo. I felt basically constant kind of depression. In New Age, the sexual relations are very free. It's all right. You share love. They call it love sharing. You simply share love, you know.
[18:28]
Colm Flynn
Now, to play devil's advocate, I know there'll be people listening to this now who will say, well, look, as long as you're a good person and everyone is consenting, you're going around, you're exploring different religions, you're picking the best from different faiths, and the good qualities and the ethics, and you're choosing the partners you want to have relationships with, and you're living your free life. You get full choice and freedom, and that's the. You get to choose to live the way you want to live.
[18:57]
Rugile Dautite
Yes.
[18:58]
Colm Flynn
And what's wrong with that?
[18:59]
Rugile Dautite
Yes. Only few generations passed when Europe, America, Western world lost their moral values. Only few generations passed, few generations past, this kind of thing would be condemned. Like everybody would think, what is this? This is not acceptable. But now it is acceptable. Indeed.
[19:21]
Colm Flynn
It was around this time that she teamed up with another shamanist leader in Lithuania and began offering retreats to groups. And this, she says, was when things started to become more serious.
[19:33]
Rugile Dautite
You rent a house, you invite a group of people, 20 to 40 people, you cook yourself, or you ask, or you buy it. Somebody cooked it, of course, super illegal. You can go to jail for 13 years.
[19:45]
Colm Flynn
Well, you started to make it yourself. Did you ever think it could be dangerous? Especially. Especially with young people coming into the door who are a bit naive and wanted to try new things. And you're making this very toxic drug and giving it to them.
[19:58]
Rugile Dautite
People die from ayahuasca. We were risking extremely as new shamans with this partner of mine, shaman, who invited me to work together in England in our first ceremony. I was a spiritual teacher, but inside I was feeling terribly. So what A liar can do that, feel terribly, and teach other people to live like them. What is that?
[20:25]
Colm Flynn
How to find happiness. You were telling people how to find happiness, but inside I was giving all
[20:30]
Rugile Dautite
kind of workshops, in all kind of circumstances. Whatever I would create, I could make it. For example, divine femininity, freedom of soul. That's not New Age. You live in imaginary world and you tell it as a truth. I felt terrible, you know, inside, but I was Very successful outside.
[21:07]
Colm Flynn
Looking back, Brugile again is convinced that these rituals and practices left her spiritually troubled. She describes feeling in her words, possessed. But as things became more difficult, she began reading the Bible and says she felt increasingly drawn away from santudaime and from taking the drug ayahuasca. Yet she still had more retreats planned.
[21:33]
Rugile Dautite
So it went through over three nights. We had four shamans helping us. We were in total six shamans, because very big group came to us from other countries. And so they liked us, they loved us. The work went well, but before these ceremonies I told them that now I'm trying to be Christian and now I believe in the Bible. I suggest you all read the Bible. There I'm reading and I'm finding all the answers. I decided now I will pray in Jesus name. And my first prayer in Jesus name was like that. God, please show me the truth. In Jesus name. Amen.
[22:10]
Colm Flynn
Rugilay was in Tenerife with a group who had paid to attend a two night retreat. The first night went as usual, but on the second night, Rugele says she had a change of heart.
[22:22]
Rugile Dautite
After that morning had to be the second night of ayahuasca drinking. So I told to my clients, do not drink ayahuasca and I'm not drinking it again. Something is really wrong with it. And they came to Tenerife, to the island in the middle of nowhere.
[22:38]
Colm Flynn
They paid a lot of money to come and have this experience and to drink that.
[22:42]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, they paid a lot of money. And now their shaman to whom they came is saying, do not do this, do not drink ayuas.
[22:48]
Colm Flynn
Their shaman is having doubts and saying, actually the stuff that I told you was brilliant last night and you should drink, which you did tonight. I'm telling you it's not good for you and you shouldn't touch it.
[22:58]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, and some of the people that was VIP, smaller ceremony, maybe 20 people or so, some of them listened to me and did not drink. But one man, whom I especially told not to listen because first night he lost his consciousness and we had a hard time bringing him back. People lose consciousness there.
[23:14]
Colm Flynn
Did the people, were they angry at you? Were they saying, hang on, what's going on here? This is a scam. You told me last night that this will give me spiritual enlightenment. This was the, what did you call it? The spiritual sacred medicine. And now you're telling me that it's sacred poison or something.
[23:28]
Rugile Dautite
In New Age, if you are following New Age, you cannot be angry. That's one of the twisted things of New Age, if you are developing spiritually, that's what New age is teaching, you cannot be angry.
[23:43]
Colm Flynn
So if you start to question and get angry and suspicious, then there's something wrong with you spiritually.
[23:47]
Rugile Dautite
Exactly, exactly, exactly. So nobody is angry there.
[23:51]
Colm Flynn
How do you feel when you think about the fact that you introduced so many people to smoking marijuana, to taking this really strong psychedelic drug, to living this lifestyle?
[24:03]
Rugile Dautite
Very terrible. The same like that moment when God showed me, because my always my intention was to help people. When God showed me that moment, that was my, my thought, oh my God, what did I do? It is terrible. Do not speak now.
[24:25]
Colm Flynn
Today, back in her home in Vilnius in Lithuania, Rugile is preparing to teach one of her music classes, this time leading Christian Songs of Praise. Rugila left the religion Sant to die me completely when she was 31. And she says she hasn't taken any drugs since. She believes becoming Catholic transformed her life, although it also meant leaving behind many friends and much of her former world. Now, you know, if they were listening to this now or today, if I went and interviewed them, the ones who are still practicing, they would say no. So so many people practice New Age religion all over the world and they're healthy and they're happy and they will attest to it, helping them in their lives to be better, happier, more successful people, more enlightened. And it works for them.
[25:25]
Rugile Dautite
That's how New Age convinces and seduces many people. It gives a lot of truth and even Vatican in second Vatican document it is said that Christianity accepts all that is good in other religions. There is a lot of good in many religions as well as a New Age. In New Age I was practicing virtues. Most of the people that I met are very good willed people. They are peaceful, they are gentle, they are sensitive people who end up in New Age. They want good. Another thing why I started doubting, you know, when I saw these people coming to us after a few years, I was working some years. After one year, after two years, the same people were coming to our ceremonies that they seemed worse and worse. So that was also a strange thing to me. Like we are giving them the sacred medicine of the soul. Why they are becoming worse? It was obvious. I feel peace, deep peace, deep joy, which is not loud like ha ha ha. It's deep, deep joy inside, you know, it's complete rest in God. It's knowing that he is omnipotent and I am not. It's knowledge of my imperfection. While before I was trying to get enlightened and I believed that I am Almost enlightened. Just maybe one more ceremony, maybe one more card reading and then that's it. I'm enlightened. You know? Now I. I came back to being human. Imperfectly human, you know?
[27:04]
Colm Flynn
How do you know it's right? How do you know the Catholic faith is the right one? What if you're wrong? Like you were wrong before? You believe? What if you're wrong this time? Again?
[27:13]
Rugile Dautite
Yeah. What if I am wrong? Well, faith is not knowing. That is the difference between faith and knowledge. Faith is faith. But God gave me enough of miracles to believe that he really is in God. I believed since my childhood. I just knew that he is. It was very strong faith. But now I found Jesus, through whom I have the access, the correct access to God without stupid things like taking drugs and believing. I'm getting enlightenment, enlightened.
[27:46]
Colm Flynn
And before I leave, she makes me some of her Lithuanian tea. Now you're smiling. And you've made this tea for me?
[27:53]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, I did. But it's all right with that safety? Yes, it is.
[27:57]
Colm Flynn
I trust you.
[27:58]
Rugile Dautite
Yes. If it's older than seven years, it is safe.
[28:10]
Colm Flynn
You've been listening to an interview with Rogile Daou Tite on Heart and Soul from the BBC World Service and from me, Colm Flynn and executive producer producer Rajiv Gupta. Thanks for listening and goodbye.
[28:26]
Rugile Dautite
No. Yes.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: "A Singer’s Search for Peace"

Podcast: The Documentary Podcast (BBC World Service)
Episode: A singer’s search for peace
Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Colm Flynn
Guest: Rugilė Dautaitė

Overview

This episode follows the remarkable spiritual journey of Lithuanian singer Rugilė Dautaitė. Once known as a rising star in mainstream entertainment, Rugilė opens up about her upbringing steeped in occult practices, her immersion in New Age spirituality and shamanism—including leading ayahuasca ceremonies—and her eventual conversion to Catholicism. The conversation navigates the interplay of faith, personal crisis, and the search for peace, providing a rare insider look at the New Age movement and its consequences, both uplifting and troubling.

Warning: Some content includes references to the occult and drug use.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and Spiritual Upbringing

Lithuanian Context:
Lithuania is predominantly Catholic, but Rugilė’s family, influenced by Soviet-era repression of religion, embraced occult and New Age practices instead of traditional faith.
- "[My great-grandmother] did not teach us about her faith, probably because of Soviet Union." (03:18, Rugilė)
Family and the Occult:
Rugilė describes how her mother and grandmother were introduced to "yellow literature" (esoteric and forbidden texts) through her grandfather’s privileged library position.
- "Suddenly there was a boom of occultism... thousands of witches, witch doctors, astrologers." (04:35, Rugilė)

2. Discovery of New Age and Spiritual Curiosity

Childhood Questions:
Growing up, Rugilė was taught a pluralistic view of God, incorporating many faiths.
- "God is one, but he has many faces... this all is the same God." (06:17, Rugilė reconstructs her mother’s teaching.)
Early Practices:
By age 12, she was reading occult texts and seeking happiness and peace.
- "I was looking for happiness and... peace." (07:21, Rugilė)
New Age Syncretism:
Rugilė embraced a pick-and-mix spirituality, worshipping gods from various pantheons.
- "I worshiped gods of Ireland, of Celtic gods, African gods, Umbande religion, gods from South America, of course Jesus and Mary." (07:38, Rugilė)

3. Rise in Music and Spiritual Practice

Professional Success:
Rugilė studied jazz in Amsterdam, performing across Europe and becoming well known in Lithuania.
- "You were becoming successful, which is very hard to do in your profession." (17:38, Colm)
Shamanism and Ayahuasca:
Rugilė became a practitioner of Santo Daime (a syncretic Brazilian religion) and a shaman, conducting ceremonies involving ayahuasca—a potent hallucinogen.
- "Well, I started to work as a shaman when I was maybe 28, 27 years old." (09:49, Rugilė)
- "If you do not get split special powers... from the devil." (10:12, Rugilė)
- "Ayahuasca is a potion... It is one of the strongest psychedelic drugs and it puts you in such a state that you are your brain works as in a dream, but at the same time you are awake." (10:56, Rugilė)

4. Rituals, Fame, and Internal Crisis

Living Two Lives:
Despite outward signs of success (like singing on Eurovision and The Voice), Rugilė experienced deep inner suffering and emotional turmoil.
- "From outside inside I felt tortured emotionally. I felt kind of depression. I felt strange influences in my physical and spiritual body, like maybe I was possessed." (01:49, Rugilė)
Ayahuasca Ceremony Details:
She recounts ritualistic details: strict white clothing, hours of singing and dancing, repeated ayahuasca doses, participants’ convulsions and vomiting.
- "For seven to 10 hours, we do not eat and we dance and we sing special songs... We drink ayahuasca three to five or even more times per night." (14:24, Rugilė)
- "I felt terrible. I could not control my emotions. I felt like constant slight depression." (16:54, Rugilė)

5. Transition and Doubt

Becoming a Shamanic Leader:
Rugilė teamed up with another shaman to organize large-scale retreats, but felt increasing inner conflict.
- "People die from ayahuasca. We were risking extremely as new shamans." (19:57, Rugilė)
- "I was a spiritual teacher, but inside I was feeling terribly." (19:57, Rugilė)
Turning Point – Christianity Beckons:
As her spiritual dissatisfaction grew, Rugilė began reading the Bible and decided to move away from her previous practices.
- "God, please show me the truth. In Jesus name. Amen." (21:33, Rugilė)
Critical Retreat and Renunciation:
During a retreat in Tenerife, she urged participants not to drink ayahuasca after a revelatory prayer, causing confusion among attendees.
- "Do not drink ayahuasca and I'm not drinking it again. Something is really wrong with it." (22:22, Rugilė)

6. Aftermath and Reflections

Feelings of Remorse:
Rugilė is frank about the guilt she feels for introducing others to drugs and occult practices, though her intentions were always to help.
- "Very terrible. The same like that moment when God showed me... oh my God, what did I do?" (24:03, Rugilė)
New Life in Catholicism:
Now, Rugilė teaches Christian music and lives a drug-free life, attributing her peace to her Catholic faith, even as it meant painful separation from many friends.
- "I feel peace, deep peace, deep joy, which is not loud like ha ha ha. It's deep, deep joy inside." (25:24, Rugilė)
On the Value and Dangers of New Age Spirituality:
She notes there is good in many New Age teachings, and that most practitioners are “good-willed people”, but she also observed that people coming to her ceremonies seemed to get “worse and worse” over time.
- "Why they are becoming worse? It was obvious." (26:10, Rugilė)
Faith and Uncertainty:
Rugilė acknowledges the leap between faith and knowledge, holding onto personal miracles as the bedrock for her belief.
- "Faith is not knowing. That is the difference between faith and knowledge. Faith is faith. But God gave me enough of miracles..." (27:12, Rugilė)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"You cannot, if you do not get split special powers from the... I would bravely say from the devil." (10:12, Rugilė)
"Now I am laughing, now I’m smiling because I remember that performance probably, which you saw. That was the depths of my New Age. I was in that Eurovision Song." (17:53, Rugilė)
"I felt terrible, you know, inside, but I was very successful outside." (20:29, Rugilė)
"Now I. I came back to being human. Imperfectly human, you know?" (26:44, Rugilė)
"What if I am wrong? Well, faith is not knowing. That is the difference between faith and knowledge." (27:12, Rugilė)

Timestamps for Key Segments

01:22: Rugilė recounts her Eurovision performance and inner turmoil
03:18: Religious repression in Soviet-era Lithuania; family origins of occult involvement
07:38: Description of mixing gods and spiritual practices in New Age
10:12: Discussing the origins and roles of shamanism; mention of "devil"
15:17: Details of Santo Daime rituals and repeated ayahuasca consumption
16:54: Emotional fallout: depression and a sense of possession
19:57: Leading ayahuasca retreats and increased feelings of fraudulence
21:33: Moment of prayer leading to her spiritual turning point
22:22: Tells retreat group to stop using ayahuasca; crisis among attendees
24:03: Rugilė’s remorse over influencing others
25:24: Life after conversion; reflections on peace, good in New Age, and concerns over participants’ wellbeing
27:12: On the difference between faith and knowledge

Tone and Style

The tone is personal, confessional, and at times raw and self-critical, marked by Rugilė’s humility and candor about both her charisma and pain. Colm Flynn’s style is gently probing, empathetic, and occasionally skeptical, but always respectful.

Conclusion

The episode delivers an unvarnished exploration of spiritual searching in the modern world, illustrated through one singer’s dramatic passage from occultism and shamanic leadership to Catholic faith. Rugilė’s story is a poignant reflection on the dangers of spiritual experimentation, the search for authenticity, and the longing for peace—inviting listeners to consider the boundaries between belief, mental health, and cultural influence.

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Transcript81 lines

[00:00]
Podcast Announcer
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[01:23]
Rugile Dautite
I was in that Eurovision Song. I was worshipping the thunder God and I was dressed as a thunder goddess with white tunic and red cape.
[01:38]
Colm Flynn
From the outset it looked like life was going great. Beautiful looking on television, very well known here in your home country of Lithuania. I mean you were winning in life.
[01:49]
Rugile Dautite
It looked like that. For from outside inside I felt tortured emotionally. I felt kind of depression. I felt strange influences in my physical and spiritual body, like maybe I was possessed. Oh my God, what did I do?
[02:18]
Colm Flynn
You're listening to Heart and Soul from the documentary on the BBC World Service. I'm Colm Flynn and I've come to Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. And just to warn you, this program does contain references to the occult and to drug use. The sun is shining through an open window as I sit in the living room of one of the country's best known singers, listening as she plays the piano.
[03:00]
Rugile Dautite
My name is and I'm from Lithuania. Vilnius,
[03:08]
Colm Flynn
Lithuania is a predominantly Catholic country with around three quarters of the population identifying as Catholic. But Rugilay did not grow up with the faith at home.
[03:18]
Rugile Dautite
Only my grand grandmother was Catholic, but she did not explain the faith to her children, my grandma, and to her grandchildren, my mother and aunt. She did not teach the faith, but she would pray herself all the time rosaries, probably many rosaries per day, and sometimes would go even twice to the Holy Mass. But she did not teach us about her faith, probably because of Soviet Union.
[03:51]
Colm Flynn
For decades Lithuania was under Soviet Rule. The country restored its independence in 1990. But during the Soviet period, religious life was heavily restricted. Churches were closed or controlled. Religious education was curtailed and and priests, religious and lay believers could face harassment, imprisonment or even exile for openly practicing their faith.
[04:17]
Rugile Dautite
In Soviet Union, you just could not get high positions for your work for the faith. You would be laughed at at school when my mother was young.
[04:27]
Colm Flynn
Instead, Rugele says her grandmother and mother became involved in occult and esoteric practices.
[04:35]
Rugile Dautite
Occultism and the religions of the east were highly forbidden. You could not get this literature, this information. But my grandfather, my mother's father, worked in the National Library as the second person after the director of the library. So he had possibility to get those books which were called the Yellow literature. And he brought the Yellow literature to my mother. And there, when she was 16, she read about reincarnation, about Hinduism concepts. And later on, when Lithuania already became free in 1991, suddenly there was a boom of occultism in the whole country. In all the post Soviet countries which were just liberated, suddenly came thousands and thousands of witches, witch doctors and readers, of cards and of palms and astrologers. Like it was so, so popular. And that's how my family, the women of my family, got into New Age.
[05:48]
Colm Flynn
New Age is a broad term for a loose collection of spiritual ideas and practices. It often draws on Eastern religions, alternative healing, meditation, astrology, mysticism and beliefs about spiritual energy. There is no central leader, sacred text or fixed set of beliefs. People often combine different ideas and practices in their own way. And this was the spiritual world that surrounded Rugile as she grew up.
[06:17]
Rugile Dautite
When I was small child, less than 12 years old, because I remember we still lived in this house, in the second floor and in the kitchen there. I asked her, I remember very well, mother, why there are so many religions? What do they mean, like why? She answered to me, God is one, but he has many faces. So he appeared to people in India in such ways that they would understand because their culture is different. People there are different. Then he appeared the God to African people as they would understand. And here he appeared in like, in Christianity, like. Like in this way. She told me, this all is the same God. So my whole interest, what spiritual world, since my childhood, I believed always in God. And I wanted to get to know God. And this was the path that my mother led me to.
[07:11]
Colm Flynn
Sitting in this very house where we are speaking today, Rugile remembers sitting on the floor and flicking through books about occultism and esoteric spirituality.
[07:22]
Rugile Dautite
As a small girl, I was already reading the dictionary of occultism. Really learning different things of occultism. I was looking for happiness and. And for peace.
[07:33]
Colm Flynn
And she says she was fascinated by this new world that was opening up in front of her.
[07:39]
Rugile Dautite
New age is make your own truth, make your own God. People believe that they can themselves determine what is truth. In New Age, you can take any God from any religion and put into your belief system. That's what I did. I worshiped gods of Ireland, of Celtic gods, African gods, Umbande religion, gods from South America, of course, Jesus and Mary. I worship.
[08:08]
Colm Flynn
You would pray to gods of many different religions and faiths. Yes, pagan ones and old Celtic, Irish gods. And it would be a mix and a blend of all of them and
[08:18]
Rugile Dautite
that what is a new age. I also worship the Hindu gods and old Lithuanian gods because I wanted something each of them can give to us. It is said that each of them can strengthen certain, certain area of your life or your qualities, make you important in this or in that way. So I worshiped many gods because I went it a lot.
[08:39]
Colm Flynn
In her 20s, Rugele moved to Amsterdam to study jazz music. And she began singing at festivals and concerts across Europe. Here she is in 2018, performing at a music festival in the Hague, in the Netherlands.
[08:54]
Rugile Dautite
I can only give you love that lasts forever.
[09:04]
Colm Flynn
And at that time, she was also increasingly open about her spiritual beliefs. In an interview after that performance, she spoke about a recent trip to Hawaii.
[09:14]
Rugile Dautite
I had a very strong calling to go to Hawaii to meet the volcano, to meet the Pele, the goddess of volcano. So now I feel very much fire energy in me and less shyness and the only heart I own.
[09:30]
Colm Flynn
Rugile had begun practicing Santudaimi. Santudaimi is a religious movement that began in Brazil, in the Amazon region, in the early 20th century. It combines elements of Christianity, indigenous Amazonian traditions, Afro Brazilian spirituality and more.
[09:49]
Rugile Dautite
Well, I started to work as a shaman when I was maybe 28, 27 years old.
[09:57]
Colm Flynn
What is that? A shaman?
[09:59]
Rugile Dautite
Shaman is a medium between spirit world and human world.
[10:05]
Colm Flynn
Now you say you started to work at it. I mean, do you. Is there a job advert somewhere? How do you. How do you get the job as a shaman? Asking for a friend.
[10:13]
Rugile Dautite
I mean, many people would like to, especially those who visit shamans, but you cannot, if you do not get split special powers from the. I would bravely say from the devil.
[10:26]
Colm Flynn
Central to those ceremonies that she was involved in is a drug called Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is a psychoactive plant brew traditionally used in parts of the Amazon. It usually contains dmt, a powerful hallucinogenic substance and it can produce intense changes in perception, emotion and consciousness. And it can also carry physical and psychological risks, particularly for vulnerable people or when mixed with certain medications.
[10:57]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, ayahuasca is a drink, is a potion which is made of two herbs from South America Amazon forests. It is the worst taste. I never tasted anything so bad in my life. But it's very, very strong. It is one of the strongest psychedelic drugs and it puts you in such a state that you are your brain works as in a dream, but at the same time you are awake.
[11:25]
Colm Flynn
But at the time, obviously you thought it was the right thing to do. You believed it was a path to enlightenment. You thought this would lead you to enlightenment.
[11:35]
Rugile Dautite
Definitely. And I wanted, I was aiming for enlightenment because that's what New Age teaches, that you can get enlightened, you can become another Jesus, ascended master, and so on. So I wanted all that.
[11:50]
Podcast Announcer
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[12:44]
Colm Flynn
You're listening to Heart and Soul from the documentary on the BBC World Service. I'm Colm Flynn talking to Lithuanian singer Rugele Dautite about her story of growing up practicing occult religions. And when she was living in the Netherlands, Rugele says she began taking ayahuasca more and more often within her religious community. It was described as sacred medicine or sacred tea, a drink that could unlock hidden parts of the mind and bring enlightenment. And at this time, Rugile was also uploading online videos of herself singing spiritual songs like this one. When she was back in her home country of Lithuania. Rugila was becoming better known in mainstream entertainment too, appearing on programs like the Voice.
[13:57]
Rugile Dautite
Try you keep pushing me aside and I can break through. There's no talking to you.
[14:09]
Colm Flynn
On stage, she looked happy and confident singing on live TV in front of the nation. But Rugilia Says that she was living two lives, performing in public during the day and taking part in intense rituals at night.
[14:24]
Rugile Dautite
Do you believe in life after love? I go there dressed in white, in long white skirt, because that's the dress code. Long white dresses. All men are with white, white suits. We stand in the big circle where every person has a set position, which is with chalk, like set on the floor. So you have your own position. For seven to 10 hours, we do not eat and we dance and we sing special songs of Santo Daimesect in Portuguese. Very, very simple movements. To the left, to the right, to the left, to the right. You cannot, like for seven or eight hours or 12.
[15:10]
Colm Flynn
And are you drinking the psychedelic during these seven hours? Are you talking to each other or you're just praying and swaying?
[15:17]
Rugile Dautite
No, it's very strict. We are not talking. We just have to do what everybody's doing, to sing and dance in that set movement. And we drink ayahuasca three to five or even more times per night. When people drink it, they go into convulsions, they vomit, they lie down. Of course they cannot dance. So the dancing people remain only those who already do it for years and who practiced and can tolerate that, who, so to say, grew spiritually enough to stand and to sing and dance the whole night.
[15:54]
Colm Flynn
I've never done it. What does it feel like? What do you go through? Do you have an experience that is a spiritual experience? What do you feel?
[16:06]
Rugile Dautite
Ayahuasca is a highly illegal drug in Lithuania. It is punished as a heroin. So your brain functions when you drink ayahuasca, like in a dream, but you are awake. You see visions with open eyes. Many people see the same visions. You meet spiritual beings who really, it seems like, talk to you and tell you the knowledge, give you whatever knowledge, or scare you or love you or guide you. When people drink ayahuasca, they vomit basically throughout the night. They cannot even sit up. Many people who were atheists go out of these kind of sessions, definitely believing that there is a spiritual world, because
[16:50]
Colm Flynn
the experience they've had is so strong that they. It confirms for them there is something there.
[16:55]
Rugile Dautite
There is something. I was going worse and worse inside. I was tortured emotionally, spiritually, mentally. I had hysteria sometimes I felt terrible. I could not control my emotions. I felt like constant slight depression. I was unhappy. Next to all of this, you are
[17:38]
Colm Flynn
becoming more and more famous. I've seen the clips of you online singing as part of the national Eurovision Song Contest here in Lithuania, on a big stage, on live television, in front of a Big crowd. You were becoming successful, which is very hard to do in your profession.
[17:54]
Rugile Dautite
Now I am laughing, now I'm smiling because I remember that performance probably, which you saw. That was the depths of my New Age. I was in that Eurovision Song. I was worshiping the thunder God. Bravo. Bravo. I felt basically constant kind of depression. In New Age, the sexual relations are very free. It's all right. You share love. They call it love sharing. You simply share love, you know.
[18:28]
Colm Flynn
Now, to play devil's advocate, I know there'll be people listening to this now who will say, well, look, as long as you're a good person and everyone is consenting, you're going around, you're exploring different religions, you're picking the best from different faiths, and the good qualities and the ethics, and you're choosing the partners you want to have relationships with, and you're living your free life. You get full choice and freedom, and that's the. You get to choose to live the way you want to live.
[18:57]
Rugile Dautite
Yes.
[18:58]
Colm Flynn
And what's wrong with that?
[18:59]
Rugile Dautite
Yes. Only few generations passed when Europe, America, Western world lost their moral values. Only few generations passed, few generations past, this kind of thing would be condemned. Like everybody would think, what is this? This is not acceptable. But now it is acceptable. Indeed.
[19:21]
Colm Flynn
It was around this time that she teamed up with another shamanist leader in Lithuania and began offering retreats to groups. And this, she says, was when things started to become more serious.
[19:33]
Rugile Dautite
You rent a house, you invite a group of people, 20 to 40 people, you cook yourself, or you ask, or you buy it. Somebody cooked it, of course, super illegal. You can go to jail for 13 years.
[19:45]
Colm Flynn
Well, you started to make it yourself. Did you ever think it could be dangerous? Especially. Especially with young people coming into the door who are a bit naive and wanted to try new things. And you're making this very toxic drug and giving it to them.
[19:58]
Rugile Dautite
People die from ayahuasca. We were risking extremely as new shamans with this partner of mine, shaman, who invited me to work together in England in our first ceremony. I was a spiritual teacher, but inside I was feeling terribly. So what A liar can do that, feel terribly, and teach other people to live like them. What is that?
[20:25]
Colm Flynn
How to find happiness. You were telling people how to find happiness, but inside I was giving all
[20:30]
Rugile Dautite
kind of workshops, in all kind of circumstances. Whatever I would create, I could make it. For example, divine femininity, freedom of soul. That's not New Age. You live in imaginary world and you tell it as a truth. I felt terrible, you know, inside, but I was Very successful outside.
[21:07]
Colm Flynn
Looking back, Brugile again is convinced that these rituals and practices left her spiritually troubled. She describes feeling in her words, possessed. But as things became more difficult, she began reading the Bible and says she felt increasingly drawn away from santudaime and from taking the drug ayahuasca. Yet she still had more retreats planned.
[21:33]
Rugile Dautite
So it went through over three nights. We had four shamans helping us. We were in total six shamans, because very big group came to us from other countries. And so they liked us, they loved us. The work went well, but before these ceremonies I told them that now I'm trying to be Christian and now I believe in the Bible. I suggest you all read the Bible. There I'm reading and I'm finding all the answers. I decided now I will pray in Jesus name. And my first prayer in Jesus name was like that. God, please show me the truth. In Jesus name. Amen.
[22:10]
Colm Flynn
Rugilay was in Tenerife with a group who had paid to attend a two night retreat. The first night went as usual, but on the second night, Rugele says she had a change of heart.
[22:22]
Rugile Dautite
After that morning had to be the second night of ayahuasca drinking. So I told to my clients, do not drink ayahuasca and I'm not drinking it again. Something is really wrong with it. And they came to Tenerife, to the island in the middle of nowhere.
[22:38]
Colm Flynn
They paid a lot of money to come and have this experience and to drink that.
[22:42]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, they paid a lot of money. And now their shaman to whom they came is saying, do not do this, do not drink ayuas.
[22:48]
Colm Flynn
Their shaman is having doubts and saying, actually the stuff that I told you was brilliant last night and you should drink, which you did tonight. I'm telling you it's not good for you and you shouldn't touch it.
[22:58]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, and some of the people that was VIP, smaller ceremony, maybe 20 people or so, some of them listened to me and did not drink. But one man, whom I especially told not to listen because first night he lost his consciousness and we had a hard time bringing him back. People lose consciousness there.
[23:14]
Colm Flynn
Did the people, were they angry at you? Were they saying, hang on, what's going on here? This is a scam. You told me last night that this will give me spiritual enlightenment. This was the, what did you call it? The spiritual sacred medicine. And now you're telling me that it's sacred poison or something.
[23:28]
Rugile Dautite
In New Age, if you are following New Age, you cannot be angry. That's one of the twisted things of New Age, if you are developing spiritually, that's what New age is teaching, you cannot be angry.
[23:43]
Colm Flynn
So if you start to question and get angry and suspicious, then there's something wrong with you spiritually.
[23:47]
Rugile Dautite
Exactly, exactly, exactly. So nobody is angry there.
[23:51]
Colm Flynn
How do you feel when you think about the fact that you introduced so many people to smoking marijuana, to taking this really strong psychedelic drug, to living this lifestyle?
[24:03]
Rugile Dautite
Very terrible. The same like that moment when God showed me, because my always my intention was to help people. When God showed me that moment, that was my, my thought, oh my God, what did I do? It is terrible. Do not speak now.
[24:25]
Colm Flynn
Today, back in her home in Vilnius in Lithuania, Rugile is preparing to teach one of her music classes, this time leading Christian Songs of Praise. Rugila left the religion Sant to die me completely when she was 31. And she says she hasn't taken any drugs since. She believes becoming Catholic transformed her life, although it also meant leaving behind many friends and much of her former world. Now, you know, if they were listening to this now or today, if I went and interviewed them, the ones who are still practicing, they would say no. So so many people practice New Age religion all over the world and they're healthy and they're happy and they will attest to it, helping them in their lives to be better, happier, more successful people, more enlightened. And it works for them.
[25:25]
Rugile Dautite
That's how New Age convinces and seduces many people. It gives a lot of truth and even Vatican in second Vatican document it is said that Christianity accepts all that is good in other religions. There is a lot of good in many religions as well as a New Age. In New Age I was practicing virtues. Most of the people that I met are very good willed people. They are peaceful, they are gentle, they are sensitive people who end up in New Age. They want good. Another thing why I started doubting, you know, when I saw these people coming to us after a few years, I was working some years. After one year, after two years, the same people were coming to our ceremonies that they seemed worse and worse. So that was also a strange thing to me. Like we are giving them the sacred medicine of the soul. Why they are becoming worse? It was obvious. I feel peace, deep peace, deep joy, which is not loud like ha ha ha. It's deep, deep joy inside, you know, it's complete rest in God. It's knowing that he is omnipotent and I am not. It's knowledge of my imperfection. While before I was trying to get enlightened and I believed that I am Almost enlightened. Just maybe one more ceremony, maybe one more card reading and then that's it. I'm enlightened. You know? Now I. I came back to being human. Imperfectly human, you know?
[27:04]
Colm Flynn
How do you know it's right? How do you know the Catholic faith is the right one? What if you're wrong? Like you were wrong before? You believe? What if you're wrong this time? Again?
[27:13]
Rugile Dautite
Yeah. What if I am wrong? Well, faith is not knowing. That is the difference between faith and knowledge. Faith is faith. But God gave me enough of miracles to believe that he really is in God. I believed since my childhood. I just knew that he is. It was very strong faith. But now I found Jesus, through whom I have the access, the correct access to God without stupid things like taking drugs and believing. I'm getting enlightenment, enlightened.
[27:46]
Colm Flynn
And before I leave, she makes me some of her Lithuanian tea. Now you're smiling. And you've made this tea for me?
[27:53]
Rugile Dautite
Yes, I did. But it's all right with that safety? Yes, it is.
[27:57]
Colm Flynn
I trust you.
[27:58]
Rugile Dautite
Yes. If it's older than seven years, it is safe.
[28:10]
Colm Flynn
You've been listening to an interview with Rogile Daou Tite on Heart and Soul from the BBC World Service and from me, Colm Flynn and executive producer producer Rajiv Gupta. Thanks for listening and goodbye.
[28:26]
Rugile Dautite
No. Yes.