732 - William Seabrook

Summary

The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds Episode 732: William Seabrook Release Date: May 5, 2026 Host: All Things Comedy

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Overview

On this episode of The Dollop, Dave Anthony recounts the bizarre and often unsettling life of William Seabrook to Gareth Reynolds. Seabrook, once a celebrated travel writer and journalist, is most infamous as the godfather of "zombie" lore in Western culture. The hosts delve into his privileged yet troubled upbringing, his fascination with occult practices and kink, his controversial travels, and the infamous dinner-party cannibalism. The episode combines history and humor, with the hosts riffing on the absurdity and awkwardness of Seabrook's life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

William Seabrook's Early Life

• Born in 1884 to a prominent family in Massachusetts ("fancy, fancy family" [04:22]) – grandfather was a lawyer, friend of Abraham Lincoln.
• Demonstrated a love of adventure from a young age; at 6, tried to run away to become a pirate ([04:47]).
• Family disruption: at 8, his father became a minister, leaving Seabrook with his grandparents ([06:06]). Left Seabrook feeling abandoned and resentful toward both parents ([06:13 - 07:20]).
• Best relationship was with his opium-addicted, mystic grandmother, "Piney," who influenced his imagination and desire to escape the mundane ([07:42 - 09:38]).

Formative Fantasies & Sexual Kinks

• Seabrook's lifelong obsession with "the girl in chains" stems from semi-erotic childhood visions influenced by myth and possibly drug-induced experiences ([10:12 - 11:55]).
• He continually sought out images and experiences related to bondage, impacting his adult relationships.

Education and Early Career

• Studied philosophy in Europe; returned to the U.S. to pursue "the fancy life"—married Katie, daughter of a Coca-Cola executive; became a businessman but felt unfulfilled ([12:00 - 13:15]).
• Attempted to recreate a pivotal moment he witnessed in Geneva with his own wife and friend, ultimately questioning his own happiness ([13:18 - 14:13]).
• Volunteered as an ambulance driver in World War I at age 31, experiencing trauma, near death, and fatigue ([14:22 - 16:10]).

Notable Quote

"He called the war, quote, the only adventure I've ever had that was not disappointing."
– Dave Anthony, [19:02]

Post-War Restlessness & Emerging Kinks

• Returned to the U.S. and tried to write. His chronic drinking and sexual preoccupations deepened. Started exploring kinky relationships openly, with his wife Katie being relatively permissive as their marriage became platonic ([23:04]).
• Initiated chains-and-locks kink sessions with a woman named Deborah (possibly a mistress of Aleister Crowley), openly buying props and recounting their usage ([21:29 - 23:04]).

Rise as a “Primitive” Culture Explorer

• Sought inspiration in travel, using “bringing aspirin” as a social favor to gain entrée into local circles in the Middle East ([27:43 - 28:34]).
• Claimed honorary membership in the Benny Shocker tribe and converted to Islam at his host’s request—it "didn’t mean anything" to him ([29:24 - 29:33]), showing his opportunism.

Notable Quote

"Bribed his way in... When I go anywhere weird, I bring Advil."
– Dave Anthony, [28:13, 28:20]

• Published sensational travel books: Adventures in Arabia and later The Magic Island.
• Formula: go somewhere “exotic,” do the forbidden, then write about it with melodramatic flair ([30:13]).

Appropriation and Racist Attitudes

• Seabrook perceived himself as “progressive,” but his journals express deeply patronizing and racist views, despite his assertions of anti-racism ([31:33 - 32:19]).
• The hosts critique his self-congratulatory ideas about cultural openness, mocking his urge to “go down to Haiti or somewhere and turn Negro if I can” ([32:00]).

Haitian Travels and the Birth of the Zombie Myth

• Seabrook arrives in Haiti post-US intervention; enjoys privileged status with house staff, servants, and leisure ([36:31 - 37:44]).
• Immerses himself in Vodou culture with the help of local contacts. Experiences rituals, including blood rites—at one point, he drinks blood from a goat killed during a ceremony ([45:16 - 46:54]).
• Publishes The Magic Island (1929), detailing stories of zombies and voodoo, popularizing the "corpses staggering down the road" idea ([48:00 - 52:07]).
• Hosts reflect on the cultural fallout, especially the creation of Hollywood’s "White Zombie," cementing these stereotypes.

Notable Quote

"His descriptions created the western idea of zombies and voodoo... The other types of zombies were never thought of—just the zombie cadaver."
– Dave Anthony, [52:04]

Increasing Eccentricities: Kink, Cannibalism, and the Decline

• Seabrook’s marriage dissolves as his public sexual eccentricities (chains, masks, domination) become more open ([53:14 - 54:45]).
• Begins affair with Marjorie Worthington; new sexual excitement, more elaborate kink rituals, and growing humiliations for his partner ([62:53 - 63:51]).
• Travels to Africa “to see the cannibals,” claims he eats human flesh and describes it as “like a good, fully developed veal” ([56:19 - 56:33]).

Wildest Anecdote

• Seabrook actually fails to eat human flesh in Africa but, eager to authenticate his book, convinces a Paris morgue worker to procure a human thigh. He cooks and serves it at a dinner party—without his guests’ knowledge ([59:03]).

Notable Quote

"He had a dinner party. Quote, I ate it in the presence of witnesses and liked it no more or less than any other edible meat."
– Dave Anthony, [59:36]

• Guests are not told what they've eaten; the hosts compare the reveal to stunts by Sacha Baron Cohen or, darkly, to Silicon Valley billionaires ([61:04]).

Late Life: Isolation and Madness

• Cycles through partners, further sexual experimentation, and alcoholism:
  • Moves to France, drinks heavily, becomes reclusive ([67:11 - 67:19]).
  • Self-admits to a psychiatric asylum for seven months; writes Asylum, the first celebrity rehab memoir ([68:00 - 69:34]).
• Upon release, relapses and brings women into his barn for "experiments," hanging them in bondage hoods in search of “slipping through a door of time” ([71:53 - 72:50]).
• Wife Marjorie ultimately leaves him after enduring years of misery ([78:26]).

Bizarre Final Chapter

• New partner, Constance Kerr, attempts to cure Seabrook’s alcoholism by dunking his arms in boiling water so he can’t bend his elbows to drink ([75:00 - 75:07]).
• After even more interpersonal chaos, Seabrook kills himself with sleeping pills in 1945, leaving behind a young son ([80:02]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On his sensibilities:
  "I have a warm feeling toward Negroes. They're perhaps less intelligent than whites...but maybe superior emotionally and spiritually"
  – Dave Anthony, reading from Seabrook, [31:33 - 32:19]

• On zombies:
  "The [Magic Island] book's description created the western idea of zombies...corpses staggering down the road. The other types of zombies were never thought of."
  – Dave Anthony, [52:04]

• On cannibalism:
  "It tasted like a good, fully developed veal."
  – William Seabrook, quoted by Dave Anthony, [56:21]

• On his rehabilitation:
  "I was locked up where I couldn't run away, either by boat or bottle. I had to stay with myself and look at myself. And it wasn't pleasant."
  – Dave Anthony, reading from Seabrook, [69:10 - 69:19]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 00:55 | Podcast start & banter | | 04:07 | William Seabrook’s birth and family background | | 06:06 | Parents’ separation and being raised by grandmother | | 08:08 | Grandmother Piney's opium/mystical influence | | 10:12 | Early sexual fantasies and “girl in chains” | | 12:00 | Education, first marriage, and advertising career | | 14:22 | World War I ambulance driver experience | | 19:26 | Writing focus after the war, drinking, obsession cycles | | 21:29 | First forays into kink with Debora, chains, locks | | 27:36 | Travels to Arabia, gaining favor with aspirin | | 31:33 | “Progressive” racism and appropriation discussion | | 36:31 | Seabrook’s time in Haiti, household setup | | 43:41 | Meeting Vodou priestess Maman Silly | | 45:16 | Participation in “blood rite,” goat incident | | 48:00 | Publication of The Magic Island; spread of zombie myth | | 52:07 | Hollywood adaptation: White Zombie | | 54:45 | Open marriages, new affairs, growing sexual extremity | | 56:21 | Cannibalism claim and the morgue dinner party | | 61:38 | Partner swap: Marjorie and William; Katie with ex-husband| | 67:11 | Alcoholism overtakes Seabrook; psychiatric stay | | 69:34 | Publication of Asylum and the aftermath | | 71:53 | “Experiments” with women in bondage hoods | | 75:00 | Constance Kerr & boiling water “cure” for alcoholism | | 78:26 | Marjorie’s final departure | | 80:02 | Seabrook’s suicide and legacy |

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Tone & Delivery

The hosts combine historical detail with irreverent, improvisational humor. They oscillate between incredulity at Seabrook’s actions and biting critique of his attitudes and the era’s context. Moments of gross-out humor, affectionate mockery, and dark one-liners keep the show lively, even when discussing uncomfortable topics.

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Conclusion

William Seabrook emerges as both a product and exploiter of his privileged context: a racist, opportunistic adventurer whose literary legacy (the zombie myth) is overshadowed by his obsessions, addiction, and abusive tendencies. Gareth and Dave deftly balance the darkness of the subject with comedic relief, making for both an informative and entertaining deep dive.

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Sources (as cited in-episode)

• The Writer Who Introduced Zombies to America by Emily Matcher (Atavist Magazine)
• The Age Newspaper, January 8, 1944

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[Gareth Reynolds]

AI this, AI that. I get it. I'm so sick of people telling me to just use AI. But weirdly enough, wix's new AI website builder really works for me. It's called WIX Harmony. And here's the thing. I get to choose how to use AI. I get everything I need to create a website. And I can either have Aria, my AI agent, design things for me, or I can edit things myself. Try it for [e-mail] Harmony My father's dead.

[Dave Anthony]

You killed him.

[Gareth Reynolds]

They think that I'm shiny.

[Dave Anthony]

I am a pie man.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm Pete Rose and I only go to Gold's Gym. This one specifically.

[Dave Anthony]

Rumor is that his penis is broken

[Gareth Reynolds]

and show up where the taco bar was.

[Dave Anthony]

His brain just fucking exploded.

[Gareth Reynolds]

River of cheese. You been drinking any gnome juice?

[Dave Anthony]

No, officer. My dad had a fart chair.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey, cover me.

[Dave Anthony]

You're listening to the Dollop on the All Things Compound Comedy Network. This is an American history podcast where each week I, Dave Anthony, read a story from American history to a goober,

[Gareth Reynolds]

Gareth Reynolds, who has no idea what the topic is going to be about.

[Dave Anthony]

You killed your semen.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't care for your terminology.

[Dave Anthony]

You. You made a dam.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I've had some stuff removed in the tubes, and now there will be no more me what comes out. I cannot imagine anyone supporting the fact that there will be no more me more than you.

[Dave Anthony]

Now, what comes out is essentially a death sauce.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't care to look at it like that. I call it ball aioli.

[Dave Anthony]

No, you don't.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, I do.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, let's not use it in a sentence.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I liked the sandwich. Could have done without the ball. Aoli.

[Dave Anthony]

Why would you have Bali on your sandwich? What are you planning on doing with this? Now that you've had your opening snipped,

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm gonna open an ikes.

[Dave Anthony]

You can now.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, I. I don't really know. I. Listen, as far as I know, I have three months until I fully know, so I could probably still.

[Dave Anthony]

There could be swimmers.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There could be a couple swimmers. We got a couple phelps left in the bag. See what happens.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, that's why you have your home lab with all your microscopes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, and they're loaded.

[Dave Anthony]

What does that mean?

[Gareth Reynolds]

They're loaded?

[Dave Anthony]

I feel like that's not the right wording.

[Gareth Reynolds]

The level. What do you call the. The slide? The slides. Is that what you put under a microsc? Yeah, I'm making tons of slides.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay. Maybe I would have waited a little while after the.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You got to wait a week and

[Dave Anthony]

you said there was smoke coming off your area, too?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's. Yeah, it's like there's a new pope.

[Dave Anthony]

Has this smoke stopped?

[Gareth Reynolds]

No smoke. But I am doing a lot of mask impressions, so I'm doing the Jim Carrey. Like, smoking.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. That's good.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But, no, it hasn't stopped. I love it, though.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, it's great down there.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Haven't had a look at it yet. Got the testicles, were dry. Shaved by a man named Edward.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, Eddie.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Eddie.

[Dave Anthony]

I know him.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Eddie was down there. Lifted the hood up and. And then we went to town. They tape your penis? Tape your penis to your body.

[Dave Anthony]

Sure.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And.

[Dave Anthony]

And so they can get at the balls.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, that's what he said. And I wiped.

[Dave Anthony]

I taped mine up when I go to the gym.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You should. Yeah, you should be ready to go. But. But, yeah, it's over. That's it.

[Dave Anthony]

That's it. No more babies?

[Gareth Reynolds]

No. None. Not even.

[Dave Anthony]

No more babies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There's not any.

[Dave Anthony]

We're gonna cut that off at 12.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There's none.

[Dave Anthony]

That you know of.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There'll be none. You must be sad, though.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't care. February 22, 1884. Year of our Lord J. Town. Who rips, by the way? Absolutely rips, bro. Rips. It's okay to admit it at this point. Like, you get it. You know what's going on.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'd rather get into the story.

[Dave Anthony]

He rips.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. So whatever.

[Dave Anthony]

William Seab.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You don't even know, by the way.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, I know. William Seabrook was born in Westminster, Massachusetts, to William L. Seok, a lawyer, and Mira, who was a rich girl.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

She was born from a prominent Pennsylvania family. William's paternal grandfather was a powerful local lawyer, Republican, and friend of Abraham Lincoln. So fancy, fancy family, sure. Young William loved adventure. At 6, he ran away from home to become a pirate.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Wow. That is a. That's good for six.

[Dave Anthony]

He didn't go very far. He didn't make it, but.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You ever run away from home?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Nobody noticed. And I came back.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's exactly what happened to me. I remember one time I wrote my mother a goodbye letter, and I hid in the closet, and I was in the closet for two hours, and then I finally came out, and I was like, have you seen my letter? And she was like, no. And I was like, you almost lost me back there.

[Dave Anthony]

I was gone for, like, eight hours.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, well, when I was in high school, I legitimately left home a lot.

[Dave Anthony]

You know, I think I was. I think I was 12 when I ran Away. But I really expected someone to look. But you know, that. That's very. Our generation.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, it was. It was really more. Yeah, it was. It was more about just. They'll feel bad.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

The level of trying to make people feel bad.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. But Gen X, they didn't care. We were raised and they were like, oh, you ran away for two days.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. You used to just. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

Gone. You just got away. Yeah. Pretty cool. So that obviously didn't work out. It came back. At 8, his dad suddenly decided to become a minister and entered a Lutheran seminary. He took William's mom and brother with him, but left behind William with his grandparents.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Wow.

[Dave Anthony]

That's a good feeling. That's just a good.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He wanted to be a pirate. Huh? There you go.

[Dave Anthony]

At 8, his. So at 8, his dad leaves William behind with his grandparents. Now, William would later say his dad had a mediocre mind and took his family into poverty to become a minister of a quote. Silly mythology.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I would guess the father did some up.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, I think you're right to just

[Gareth Reynolds]

all of a sudden be like, we've got to go to church.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, I think you're right. He was really pissed at his mom, who, after having his younger brother and sister, went from being a slender, laughing girl mother to a stout, bossy, always dissatisfied minister's wife.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But he was left behind.

[Dave Anthony]

I know, but he's still mad at his mom.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay. Because she's not a girl mom.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, because she. She had three kids and. And didn't have the same body, basically, is what it sounds like.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Is that really what he means? I thought that meant that he. She sounded more like a brood.

[Dave Anthony]

No, she went from a slender, laughing girl mother to a bossy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, but the attitude in there is what I picked up.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, but I think it's versus laughing. I think it's both. But also, like, you have three kids, you're not as fun anymore because you tell them to shut the up.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, you had one and you became a pain in the ass.

[Dave Anthony]

You had a cat and you did.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, well, I'm not having any kids because the fun's gonna stay here. I got rewired down yonder.

[Dave Anthony]

All this. All.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I let a doctor into my testicles.

[Dave Anthony]

All your sperm is not going to die inside of you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Good.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't want it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Let me tell you. I. Listen, I spent the first half of my life being controlled by those little guys. Now I'm in charge.

[Dave Anthony]

The only adult in his life that he actually liked was his grandmother, Piney Piney. Piney was said to have visions and powers since childhood.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Let's go, Piney.

[Dave Anthony]

I think that's how it works.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I would definitely hang out with Piney.

[Dave Anthony]

As a teen, she had been married off to a much older man who brought her to Westminster. And there she lives an unhappy life amongst the bourgeoisie.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

She became addicted to opium and magic. For you hit a bottle of laudanum in the crook of a tree in the backyard. Oh, God, the air.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Love a tree bar.

[Dave Anthony]

It's heroin. Tree is awesome.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's like. I mean, that is perfect to just go to a magic tree for your opium. Hell, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

It's the best way to do her.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Just like there used to be elves in here.

[Dave Anthony]

I'll be going out to the tree.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. Grandma's at the tree again. What is she doing out there?

[Dave Anthony]

She's sleeping on it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Grandma's nodding off in front of her bush again.

[Dave Anthony]

William thought Piney saw him as a kindred spirit.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Quote, but she was just on heroin.

[Dave Anthony]

She's on heroin.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You know, when she looks into. She looks at my eyes the way no one ever has before.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, another little soul which, like yourself, found normal, ordinary life unbearable. That's a weird dark. That's a weird thing to have as a kid.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Dark from a kid.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

When your best friend's a heroin addict.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. It's not an old heroin addict goes

[Gareth Reynolds]

to her junk tree. Man. I'm really not gonna be able to shake the fact that you could probably just put a little liquor cabinet in a tree.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Yeah, you could. Yes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You could go out there like. Yeah, I'm gonna go water the trees. Open your little tree.

[Dave Anthony]

They often would take walks together in the woods. He said one day the woods became strange in a clearing. The trees were not trees she gave Marijuin, but the legs of, quote, beautiful, bright plumaged roosters which were as tall as thousands. She gave him a lot of them. She absolutely gave him a lot.

[Gareth Reynolds]

100.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Awesome.

[Dave Anthony]

Look at the tree.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes. You like that red? Yeah. It's your last year a Piney. I was wondering around. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dave Anthony]

Another time they were on a hill with a rock tower on top. And William went into the tower and found a woman on a throne.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hello. Hi. You're on heroin.

[Dave Anthony]

I'm the tower lady at Westminster, Massachusetts.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This will be a friendlies one day.

[Dave Anthony]

She was wearing, quote, green robes, golden clogs and a. And had red gold braided hair. She had metal circlets around her wrists, ankles and waist which were joined by chains.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Jesus.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, I Went forward alone to sit by the leather foot stool and put my arms around the lady's knees.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hell yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

She led my hands down the soft silk folds to her chained feet and pressed them tightly there until my own hands held and drew the chains tighter. I was trembling with happiness. What the. Oh, yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

By the way, you could have just like I'm your dad, leaving you behind is. There's never been better abandonment.

[Dave Anthony]

I mean. I mean, what do you do with it? With a lady in a tower on a hill?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, look, I'll be honest. He's a kid. Yeah, but everything you've said so far was pretty erotic.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes, it was.

[Gareth Reynolds]

If I went into that room and like, she was like, lower.

[Dave Anthony]

Are we going to do something else?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

No. Just touch my feet.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Get me out of the chains.

[Dave Anthony]

Through his childhood, he was obsessed with the girl in chains. He spent hours looking at art and mythology books in the library, fantasizing over pictures of Venus hanging by her wrist from a tree. He sent away for an ivory soap calendar of queen Zenobia because she. He. He heard she was pictured in chains.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, this is going to get strange.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean, yeah?

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's lazy and I don't know, I'm a little nervous.

[Dave Anthony]

What? It's fine. He went to Roanoke College and got a degree in philosophy and then an MA From Newberry College and he got a job as a reporter at the Augusta Chronicle. But he's not feeling it. He wanted to travel.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure.

[Dave Anthony]

So he goes to Europe and he ends up studying philosophy in Geneva. And one day he's in a park and he sees a really well dressed, fashionable couple. He dug the man's hip, pointy beard and velvet collared coat and the woman's slender ankles and golden hair. Sure. And he watched as they got into the car. And he loved the guy's car. Okay. And soon he was heading back to the U. S. To pursue that fancy life.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He just wants to be rich.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. With a hot. With a hot lady.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay, Sure. I like how he was like, wait a minute.

[Dave Anthony]

And he gets married to Kate Edmondson, who was Katie, who was the daughter of a Coca Cola executive.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

And then he founded an ad agency and joined the Rotary Club.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's different.

[Dave Anthony]

He's becoming a businessman.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure. It's a little different than what he first saw, but. Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, but something's off still.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. And a change.

[Dave Anthony]

So. Well, during a work day, he calls Katie and one of his friends, Ed, and he. He says, meet me at a park. And then he makes Them pose. Trying to recapture what he had felt at the park in Geneva when he saw the couple.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Quote, this is very strange.

[Dave Anthony]

No, it's normal. You never done this?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Nope.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, I kept saying to myself, I'm Ed there. I've got all that as Ed has. All that belongs to me, and I can keep it all my life if I want to.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What's he talking.

[Dave Anthony]

He's trying to convince himself that this is the life he wants.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, okay.

[Dave Anthony]

By having his wife walk around with another dude and going, like, okay, this is what I felt.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's, like, watching how he looks kind of.

[Dave Anthony]

He's trying to recreate the. The Geneva thing and going, okay, I got what I wanted.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But why doesn't it feel?

[Dave Anthony]

Why doesn't it feel? Yeah. Now World War I had started, so he joins up as an ambulance driver.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Like, great. That I didn't realize you could just do that.

[Dave Anthony]

He's 31. Yeah. They take anybody in World War I.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, but to just be an ambulance driver, I'll pick up the ones.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't know if he signed up for that, but that's what.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's what you got?

[Dave Anthony]

31. So he's older than most soldiers. Sure. In France, he picked up the wounded and drove them to a field hospital.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

German shells would fall all around him. He'd go days without sleep, and he saw just horrifying injuries and deaths. Once he forgot to take a wounded soldier off his ambulance before he fell asleep in his tent.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, my God.

[Dave Anthony]

That'll happen.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So that guy was like, hey, it's like when you.

[Dave Anthony]

It's like when you get. Get. You get in your car and you forget your purses on top or, like, your groceries. Groceries. Grab bag of groceries. Same guy who's dying.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hello.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hello.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, there's. Yeah, that's the difference. Hey, it's a man.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey.

[Dave Anthony]

These groceries are loud.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey.

[Dave Anthony]

So hard to sleep.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Don't go to sleep.

[Dave Anthony]

Hey, dude, I can sleep through anything now because it's a war.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm still in here.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, my God. Shut up. Trying to sleep.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So you know I'm in here.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't even know what that means. I think that's in my head.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm dying now. Okay. What do you mean, okay?

[Dave Anthony]

I don't know. I'm just trying to sleep, bro.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't know who you are. I know. I'm the guy that you were supposed to drive to the hospital.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't even know what that means.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You're an ambulance driver.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes. Good night.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, let's Catch some.

[Dave Anthony]

Shut up. Best thing for you right now is a little sleep.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I think it's the opposite.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. And you need to shut your eyes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Try to stay awake as long as possible.

[Dave Anthony]

Go. Go to sleep.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, no.

[Dave Anthony]

Best sleep of your life.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh.

[Dave Anthony]

Longest best sleep of your life. There you go. There you go. All right. Good night.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So I'm still alive. I just started thinking a little bit.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, stop doing that.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay. You just gonna come get me?

[Dave Anthony]

No.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Why would you say no?

[Dave Anthony]

I'm just laying down.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm laying down, too.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, well, then we're fine. Oh, God, we're totally fine. I'm going to take you back out there is what I'm going do. Let me take you back out to the battlefield if you keep it up. A lot of complaining.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, no. Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

No.

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right.

[Dave Anthony]

What are you doing?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm going keep myself up. Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't want to be here anymore.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Come get me.

[Dave Anthony]

I want a German shell to kill me.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Come get me, big boy. Oh.

[Dave Anthony]

So the guy dies. The guy dies on the.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hold on.

[Dave Anthony]

No, I'm killing him now because it's going on for a long time. So I'm stopping it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh.

[Dave Anthony]

What are you doing?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I need more gauze.

[Dave Anthony]

No, you don't.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, I got a new wound.

[Dave Anthony]

So the guy died while he slept,

[Gareth Reynolds]

but not for a while.

[Dave Anthony]

William told us a commander and doctor, but they said the man died in root and to just forget about it. Wow. What else are they going to do?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, I guess.

[Dave Anthony]

So William starts writing a war diary, and the Atlantic Monthly agreed to publish it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

And so he's thrilled. It's his first big break, right? Sure. But the field service decided.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Did he want to be a writer?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, okay.

[Dave Anthony]

But the field service decided to publish it as a booklet to raise funds.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay. So now that was good.

[Dave Anthony]

And now Williams live it, because that's not a big break.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Right.

[Dave Anthony]

Now, in 1916, he was off duty. He's playing cards with some guys in a cow shed.

[Gareth Reynolds]

In a cow shed?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Where are you gonna do it?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Casino.

[Dave Anthony]

And they were hit by a chlorine gas attack.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, my God.

[Dave Anthony]

Better than mustard gas, is it? Yeah, I think so.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Really? They really punched up the mustard gas name.

[Dave Anthony]

I think chlorine just affects your lungs, but mustard, I think, affects your lungs and your skin.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Why do they call it mustard gas?

[Dave Anthony]

Because it's yellow maybe. I don't know why they call it mustard gas. I really should have mustard. Guess I just. I recall it's the worst one, but now Someone's gonna be like, hi, I read all the military World War I books, and no, you're wrong.

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right? Leave. This person. This person just knows some stuff not come out of the woodwork yet.

[Dave Anthony]

He will.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I've got like a tea.

[Dave Anthony]

He said the chlorine g. I have ptsd. He said the chlorine gas attack was a quote, Dolos catching influenza. But he gets sent home.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's cool.

[Dave Anthony]

He called the war quote the only adventure I've ever had that was not disappointing.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, wow. That's weird too. That's weird. That is a red flag too. He likes chains and I like. He likes women being bound and war. And he likes the almost going.

[Dave Anthony]

I mean, not just war. It's like one of the worst battlefield.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And he likes that excitement.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He likes danger.

[Dave Anthony]

His father in law bought them a farm outside of Atlanta. And William focused on his writing. He wrote short stories, wore sketches, essays, outlines for novels. But he spent most of his time drinking with the caretaker.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hell yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

And he thought more and more about the girl in chains.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Don't like that.

[Dave Anthony]

Hell yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't like that. She keeps coming up.

[Dave Anthony]

Don't kink shame.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm not kink. Shaming. I love a. A fishnet on.

[Dave Anthony]

At a neighbor's mansion. Jesus Christ. That was the craziest thing anyone's ever said. At a mansion. At a neighbor's mansion. He was there. And he fixates on a Corinthian pillar in the house.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I got a Corinthian pillar for you.

[Dave Anthony]

And imagined how a woman would look chained to it. These are normal thoughts. When you see a pillar.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Now again, that's that kickstand. Because if you have a willing participant. I just don't like that he's.

[Dave Anthony]

It's very normal.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It feels like a man back then will go take that.

[Dave Anthony]

Very normal. On a trip to New York, he went to the studio of a famous puppeteer. As you do when you're.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Back then.

[Dave Anthony]

This was normal back then.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Puppeteer. Yeah. Puppeteers are just like, good. I'm swimming in it.

[Dave Anthony]

And he met a young woman who was there who was also a puppeteer.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

In writings, he would call her Deborah Loris. We don't know a real name. Okay. She may have been one of the mistresses of occultist Aleister Crowley, who was part of the Greenwich Village scene.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Right.

[Dave Anthony]

So women. William was really into Deborah's blunt sexuality and her quote, broad animal face. That's why I like you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What?

[Dave Anthony]

I like your broad animal face.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Thank you. What does that mean?

[Dave Anthony]

I Don't know. After he wrote and asked if she'd be up for doing some kink with him.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey, straightforward.

[Dave Anthony]

She wrote, quote. I mean, at that time, it's not really a thing. So he's basically like, hey, can I chain you up and. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Can we do weird stuff?

[Dave Anthony]

She wrote, quote. Sure, why not? Come on up. But why be so solemn and self conscious about it? It might be fun.

[Gareth Reynolds]

She said that?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay, great.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, great. All good.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Love it.

[Dave Anthony]

William goes and tells his wife.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Interesting. Oh, honey, I forgot to tell you.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That puppeteer lady is going to let me tie her up and be all sort of kinky with her, so.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This is great, Brett.

[Dave Anthony]

Cool. Thank you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. So I'm probably gonna go up there and put her in a bunch of chains and stuff like that, and who knows?

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Bang the out of her. Wow.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I swear, I'm just chasing that woman in that weird tower made of rock that day that my grandma gave me heroin.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So she seems really down to clown, and I'm excited for that.

[Dave Anthony]

Huh.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Not gonna be a big square like you. Okay. Only thing you'll let me do is move your legs to the side a little bit. This lady's really gonna let me have a time. It's gonna be great.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'll probably try to wrap a bunch of chains around. Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

No, I don't need to hear more. Thanks. It's.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, it's gonna sound like Marley's coming to visit. Ebenezer.

[Dave Anthony]

They just not told me. I mean, that's one. That was an option.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Chain shaking. Oh, my pants are getting tight just thinking about it. Well, I probably shouldn't eat too much. I don't want to cramp up during the chain.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right.

[Dave Anthony]

No.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Clean up the dishes.

[Dave Anthony]

No. Well, they basically had a platonic relationship at this point, so Katie was okay with it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Cool. There you go.

[Dave Anthony]

So he bought locks and chains at Hammacher Schlemmer and took a train.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And I guarantee you that guy's like, what do you got going on?

[Dave Anthony]

I'm a chain up a lady. Oh, yeah, that's over at our Lady Chanup section.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Where are your lady locks?

[Dave Anthony]

What'll keep a lady really tied to a pole? Yeah, like that.

[Gareth Reynolds]

She's like, I want her to be able to get out, but barely.

[Dave Anthony]

So he spends a week in New York and he barely leaves Deborah's apartment. So soon after this, he gets a job as a reporter for William Randolph Hearst Empire and he and Katie move to New York.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

Now she opens a Coffee shop. And that becomes very popular with village artists and writers. While William is becoming more and more insecure about his writing, and he is introducing himself as a short story writer even though he just sold one short story.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

He became ridiculously eccentric. He would walk around the village in camois gloves with a walking stick.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Camois.

[Dave Anthony]

Camois.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What's that like?

[Dave Anthony]

It's that material, like now, I think the only thing I know it's used for is like to. To wipe off cars. Is like a. When you're cleaning a car, you get like a camo.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay. Camo gloves with what?

[Dave Anthony]

A walking stick.

[Gareth Reynolds]

A walking. Nice. Always strange.

[Dave Anthony]

So he's. Yeah, the walking stick guy in New York is a weirdo.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. So it's a gateway to a bird. It's there you're. You're knocking on the door of having a bird.

[Dave Anthony]

But they will cold call Birchalls or cold call you at that point.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And sir, do you have a cane?

[Dave Anthony]

I do.

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right. Are you interested in some birds or any birds?

[Dave Anthony]

I am.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Absolutely. We've got some of the best shoulder birds in town.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, my goodness, that's perfect.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And while we have you, sir, if you order two birds today, we'll give you a little sphere, a glass sphere.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, for the cane.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, just so you can hold in your hand and kind of.

[Dave Anthony]

Can I put it on the top of the cane?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure, sir, if you want to put on top of the cane. But you could also roll it around in your hand and make it seem like a crystal ball.

[Dave Anthony]

You can use it to hit one of the birds.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, why. My superior is saying, no, don't. Don't hit the bird with the ball.

[Dave Anthony]

What can I hit the bird with?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, we kind of don't want you to hit the bird. Oh, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

What's a bird for?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm sorry? Just to give you a look of a wise person, sort of like, oh, wizardy.

[Dave Anthony]

Do you look wise if you throw a bird against the wall? Closer. No, no, because it seems like that would be.

[Gareth Reynolds]

We're gonna go. We're gonna go.

[Dave Anthony]

I can get a bird anywhere.

[Gareth Reynolds]

We're going to. I hung up.

[Dave Anthony]

Hello, sir?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hang up so I can make another call.

[Dave Anthony]

So William doesn't want to be known as a hack writer, but he still started writing stories about lured and supernatural stuff.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

He ghostwrote a crime memoir by the bobbed haired bandit after she was robbing shops in Brooklyn.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

He was making money. More money than ever. Like, he's doing well. But if someone called out what he wrote, he. It Devastated him.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So he didn't like what he was writing.

[Dave Anthony]

He's embarrassed of his art.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Right.

[Dave Anthony]

But you got to make a living.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure.

[Dave Anthony]

So it's a thing. At a party, a hero of his writer, Theodore Dreiser, deliberately ignored William, and that humiliation spurred him to become a more serious writer. A Columbia University student from Lebanon hung out in the coffee shop and once said his father would welcome any friend of his to Beirut.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

So William took him up on it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So I. It was just. I'm going. It's a turn of phrase.

[Dave Anthony]

How do we do this?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm ready to go to Beirut.

[Dave Anthony]

I bought a ticket. Off we go.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I can't wait to meet your dad.

[Dave Anthony]

Now will you come with me or write a letter or should I wear your skin?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm gonna go meet your dad.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, I'm gonna meet your dad. So he jumps on a ship.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

He's got a. He's got a letter of introduction to a Bedouin chic.

[Gareth Reynolds]

To what?

[Dave Anthony]

A Bedouin chic.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

William has silk pajamas and a case of aspirin, which is super rare there.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's what he brings?

[Dave Anthony]

Yes. Well, to, like, other stuff. Like extra stuff to, like.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Right.

[Dave Anthony]

For people.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So aspirin's a big player to gain favor.

[Dave Anthony]

Sure.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's awesome.

[Dave Anthony]

And he gives it out to the wives of Bedwing warriors, and soon he becomes an honorary member of the Benny Shocker tribe.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay. Because he brought, he asked for and bribed his way into it. Right.

[Dave Anthony]

That's how you do it. It's great. I. When I go anywhere weird, I bring Advil. Yes,

[Gareth Reynolds]

I know you're full, but I got the two, et cetera. Hey, let this guy in. He's got Motrin.

[Dave Anthony]

You know, that guy went to that island for Sri Lanka and wasn't supposed to go there and they killed him. Yeah, I went there with Advil and they were like, get in here.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Just. He's gotta leave. What do you mean he's gotta leave? Why's he gotta go? Oh, no, we're not doing this.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes, we are.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's gonna leave. Let him in. How are we gonna let him in if he wants to leave? Because he has a leave. We're not doing this. Yeah, I tell you,

[Dave Anthony]

you're all alone

[Gareth Reynolds]

on account of all the Aleve.

[Dave Anthony]

You're all alone.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This is, by the way. You give me five minutes in a room alone, I'm coming back with a great Aleve. How can you leave if we took him on board? We took him on board on account of the aleve. How's he gonna leave?

[Dave Anthony]

I said Advil, by the way.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm doing.

[Dave Anthony]

I know. I'm trying to stop you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's not working. Idiot.

[Dave Anthony]

He was invited on their horse stealing raids and he converted to Islam at the request of a host.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

But he didn't mean anything to him. He didn't care.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure.

[Dave Anthony]

And then they offered him the services of a slave girl. I don't know what he did with that offer.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I am hoping he turned it down.

[Dave Anthony]

I bet he didn't.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okie dokie.

[Dave Anthony]

William's first book was published in 1927. Adventures in Arabia among the Bedouin Druzes and whirling dervishes and Yazidi devil worshipers.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So now he's living a life and he's able to actually write some stuff.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Because he's interest. His life's interesting.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Basically.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's like when. It's like when I got the vasectomy. One of the first things I thought was, this will be a bit. Not a good one.

[Dave Anthony]

The public loves the book.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

Critics, not as much. One critic called it melodramatic. The formula he had created was to go somewhere exotic, find the weird ritual thing or place, be told not to go there or do it, then do it or go there and then say it was actually awesome.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Great.

[Dave Anthony]

This was considered progressive at the time. William believed he was anti racist because he was from the south, but would hang out with and eat with the savages.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, there's a lot going on there. You know, I don't know if it. I don't know if it's right to consciously be thinking of how not racist you are.

[Dave Anthony]

I think that's really great. I go around saying I'm not racist all the time.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. No. And there's nothing that makes me happier than to say to someone who's not my race, how cool am I being about this? I'm not even thinking about it. How cool is this of me? I'm white.

[Dave Anthony]

It's not great.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, my p and my blood is the compulsion to take advantage of indigenous people in their. Their artifacts. And here I am talking.

[Dave Anthony]

Huh.

[Gareth Reynolds]

How good is this? Keep in mind, I'm real white.

[Dave Anthony]

Super white.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Ah.

[Dave Anthony]

So he's basically an adventure going into mysterious and troubling lands with an open mind. That's sure.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Which is rare.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, I have a warm feeling toward Negroes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey, don't care for it.

[Dave Anthony]

They're perhaps by and large less intelligent than white.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What I called this. This is exactly what I'm talking about. To have the conscious thought about how great you're being for doing that's basically what it is.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, I'm going there and not talking about this.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm hanging around with these stupid non whites. I'm barely bringing it up.

[Dave Anthony]

Or perhaps only less well educated, inferior intellectually in general if you choose. But I often think they're superior to us emotionally and spiritually. Perhaps superior in kindness and capacity for happiness. I'd like to go down to Haiti or somewhere and turn Negro if I can.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, is that weird?

[Dave Anthony]

Is that weird?

[Gareth Reynolds]

There were parts of the that that felt a little redemptive and then it really fell apart badly. Badly. What do you mean? I'm very nervous.

[Dave Anthony]

Why?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Because don't care for his cultural appropriation

[Dave Anthony]

on a level that's disturbing.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Pining to be what he called I don't think is a great thing. I don't think that's going to be a great turn for this character. I mean, I remember when Anthony Bourdain went to Asia and said my plan is to be Chinese soon. It's weird.

[Dave Anthony]

Agreed. So this is post war and the war had gassing and machine guns. So academic types were looking at non western cultures as like more spiritual, real, an antidote to the post war nightmare. We still, if you can imagine that happening, if you can imagine that we're

[Gareth Reynolds]

still looking for that.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, but that, but that's exactly what's going on now with a lot of things. Colonialism had been bringing tribal art back to Paris for decades and that led to tons of primitive themed art. Music, clothes, dance writing. Surrealists made art inspired by quote, negro art. Josephine Baker from Missouri was doing the banana dance. What? So by the 1920s. Yeah, by the 1920s, everyone is, is into it. Right. So this cultural appropriation, not enough though

[Gareth Reynolds]

we could like count on civil rights or anything like that. You know what? I think we figured it out. We'll take the good parts and make them ours.

[Dave Anthony]

We're gonna dance like them, but they still have to use different drinking.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Can we vote? No, but look at us. Do your dances. How cool is this? Everybody do the white.

[Dave Anthony]

This is the feeling I get when I, when I'm in Hawaii and I see the, the luau things where people go watch luau dancing and to l out things and eat the. And I'm just like, yeah, it's weird.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, and it's also. But it is like it's again, it's like financially a smart decision because white people are like, oh my God.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I, I tell you When I. The first time I flew to Hawaii, I. I got off the plane and I was walking through the airport and they were handing out lays and I put one on and I was like, yeah. And then they were like, are you part of the clarkson tour group? And I was like, no. They're like, that's not for you. I was like, oh, I thought, sorry. Just every movie I've seen in Kauai,

[Dave Anthony]

they always give you a lay. I don't know if they still do.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, they didn't. Wherever I flew into Maui and they did not.

[Dave Anthony]

So this is a big thing. And William's Haiti idea, which I said before, which if you want to repeat it, I'd like to go down to Haiti or somewhere and kill negro. If you want me to hear Williams Haiti idea, I do Haiti. The idea got him a fifteen thousand dollar book advance. That's two hundred thousand dollars.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'd like to see what you come back with.

[Dave Anthony]

I'd like to see you be black.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Ah, good luck out there. So why do Haitians hate us?

[Dave Anthony]

So many more reasons.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. You got rid of slavery. We're like, you're gonna regret that.

[Dave Anthony]

Hey, we'll bring it back. In 1928, he headed for the island. Now Haiti at this point is a disaster because of US Intervention.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. Can you imagine? It is the one country we up

[Dave Anthony]

and the only one. The one time we invaded in 1915 to protect our corporations after coups had destabilized the country. And then we installed the puppet leader and dissolved the legislature. We introduced segregation policies for light and dark skinned black blacks, which pissed off the creole elites. We initiated slavery to build new roads and infrastructure.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This is, it's.

[Dave Anthony]

We're good, we're good. Why are people saying we're not good, we're good. Who, who else would have done that? Roads got built. Right.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It. It's the one of the few bright spots of living under what we're living under now is where people are starting to go, wait, what did we do?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, no, no, we like, yeah, yeah. No, it's been real bad.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, real bad.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But Joe Biden was a yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

So by the time William arrived, those who had supported the u. S. Intervention now hated us. But William was super into going and he brought Katie and they rented a house in port au Prince. They had servants, a cook, a butler, a laundress, a houseboy named Lewis.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hello.

[Dave Anthony]

Hi. I'm the house boy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hello.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't think he was actually a boy, though.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Based on whether I'm really more of a house man.

[Dave Anthony]

Man. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

More syrup?

[Dave Anthony]

No.

[Gareth Reynolds]

A little more. Potentially.

[Dave Anthony]

Nope.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Maybe a touch more syrup.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There you are.

[Dave Anthony]

I'm having coffee.

[Gareth Reynolds]

A little more syrup in it. What about Katie? Would she care for some more syrup? Nope. Well, if neither of you want any more syrup, maybe I'll go away for the morning.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'll stand here until you're done with your coffee to make sure. No, I put a. I took the liberty of putting more syrup in your beds.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay. Thank you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So that's nice and sticky for you, too, now.

[Dave Anthony]

So have you been watching us?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I should put some syrups in your shoes.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, great. Thank you.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No problem.

[Dave Anthony]

I guess. Don't come back. It's more what I'm thinking.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What do we. What do we think with the syrup stuff?

[Dave Anthony]

Well, I think we don't need anymore.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Maybe a little bit more on your shoes.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There you are.

[Dave Anthony]

They're very sticky.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Perfect.

[Dave Anthony]

You're a very bad houseboy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm a man.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes. Worse. More uncomfortable.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, if there's nothing more, syrup wise.

[Dave Anthony]

No, there's not. Really.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

Thank you. Yeah. Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Little tip. Potentially.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess you work for me.

[Gareth Reynolds]

For those of us who are just

[Dave Anthony]

listening, you're literally my employee. So I don't. There you go. Yep.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't work for syrup.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, that's what we have. White the Dollop is brought to you by Squarespace, an all in one platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dave Anthony]

Which I think is what you've done.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dave Anthony]

You've succeeded.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Everything I have is from Squarespace. Nothing from the work of driving in vans back and forth across the country.

[Dave Anthony]

You have a really good website.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dave Anthony]

It's very nicely done. Squarespace has great templates.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dave Anthony]

Which is why I started using it in the first place. And. And then we've got all our other websites.

[Gareth Reynolds]

With Squarespace, every website, anytime a website, website or website is. It's time for one. It's Squarespace. Yeah, no doubt.

[Dave Anthony]

And there's a reason for that. It's the easiest to use. You don't have to upgrade anything.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Looks good.

[Dave Anthony]

Looks great. The best thing. Easy to use.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dave Anthony]

Like that is for me, the number one thing. Because it's hard out there with the interwebs.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's not easy, dude.

[Dave Anthony]

It's not easy easy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, everyone. It feels like the walls are closing in.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, this got weird.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So they're coming to get you. So you need a good website.

[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

That's right. Every website.

[Gareth Reynolds]

They're coming.

[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

I made a functioning iron man suit out of SEO tools.

[Dave Anthony]

All right, so we're just going to move forward. So check out squarespace.com for a free trial.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Get helium anymore and you're ready to launch.

[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

By the way, Squarespace uses Squarespace for

[Dave Anthony]

their website to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. I feel like that part was not

[Gareth Reynolds]

necessary, so that's validating. Also.

[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

Yes, Dave.

[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

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[Dave Anthony]

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[Gareth Reynolds]

He's a great audience for this stuff. Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Childhood.

[Dave Anthony]

William and Lewis started making trips into the mountains. In a small mountain village, he met Maman Silly, a spiritual leader.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I am quite silly.

[Dave Anthony]

He lived with her for weeks.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Whoa.

[Dave Anthony]

He said he was. She said he was her son. Quote, a black man with a white face.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You mean it? This is what I've been waiting for.

[Dave Anthony]

It is. She clearly knew what he wanted. Like, she. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I've been doing white face all these years.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, I mean, I wouldn't call it white face, but. You are a white face.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm a black man.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh. All the things that I can now do.

[Dave Anthony]

Nothing, really. There's less, actually. Less stuff that you can do. A lot less.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I knew I hated whitey.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, well, this is taking a turn that we.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well.

[Dave Anthony]

Huh?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm black.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay. Yes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay. I don't know why you're moving your body like that.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Because I've dropped the white.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. I'm black.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. No. Stop it, please. Oh, I'm begging you to stop it. Begging you to stop it. The sake of the podcast, for the sake of our careers. My mom made a bag of charms to protect him, which he prayed over.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

She let him See a blood, right. In which a bull was. The autocorrect. I don't know what it is. It says scarfed. Let's just go with scarfed. So they put scarves on it. Carved it. Might have been car. Yeah, but scarves is kind of cooler.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That is cool.

[Dave Anthony]

While villagers played drums and danced, then he watched as maman's daughter was turned into a goat.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Huh?

[Dave Anthony]

What?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Now, wait a minute. I get to be black, but she's a goat now.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes, but that's not the same thing, because goats are not oppressed.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I didn't know there were options.

[Dave Anthony]

There were. You could have been a goat.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I want to be the son.

[Dave Anthony]

No, you already are. Black guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Could have been.

[Dave Anthony]

Can't change you again. It's. We picked.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It could have been a Jim Brewer character.

[Dave Anthony]

The teen on her knees and the goat stared at each other. Her lips became goat like and she nibbled at leaves.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What the hell?

[Dave Anthony]

Her eyes were glassy. Quote, when a priest plunged a knife into the goat's neck, the girl bleated, leaped and self fell. Fell senseless to the ground. The goat was bled into a bowl. The blood used to draw a cross on Seabrook's forehead. The bowl was then held to his lips and Seabrook drank the clean, warm, salty blood. Go on.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, I don't know. It just seems like it's a lot. It's definitely a lot.

[Dave Anthony]

Why you say that?

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's just.

[Dave Anthony]

This is just a vacation. Like, this is what happens on a Caribbean cruise.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'd be. I find it troubling.

[Dave Anthony]

Why?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Just drinking the blood out of the bull's neck. Fresh.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, that's how you drink. How do you drink goats?

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, that's the whole. Or the goat's blood. Sorry, but. No, I would just. Really. All right. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to. Culturally. Yucky. Yummy.

[Dave Anthony]

You are yucking a yum.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But it is, you know, it's. I don't love it. I don't love any of that stuff. I never love watching any of that stuff. Or the, you know, the.

[Dave Anthony]

You know, I don't think you're fun. Like, I don't think it'd be fun to take a vacation with.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You've taken vacations with me?

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

We hung out for three days in Cairns together.

[Dave Anthony]

This is what I'm saying.

[Gareth Reynolds]

We saw the Great Barrier Reef.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, and you were a bummer.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Then I followed a turtle for so long that they told me to come back to the boat.

[Dave Anthony]

So these and other stories were published in his book, the magic island in 1920.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This is gonna be a huge hit.

[Dave Anthony]

The part of the book that made the biggest splash was about zombies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh. Oh, dear.

[Dave Anthony]

So in the Caribbean, zombies had many forms. A disembodied soul trapped in a jar.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Wow.

[Dave Anthony]

A person turned into an animal. A tiny fairy like creature that hid under beds to scare naughty kids. And a corpse raised from the dead.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Why you went in the wrong order. That is from least threatening to most. Jar Jar Zombie.

[Dave Anthony]

Jar Zombie's awesome.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Just like an empty jar. Don't open that. No, no, that's not peanut butter. Scary under the bed. Not great, but.

[Dave Anthony]

But scary under the bed is like a standard kid story.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'll be honest, Dave. There are times where I still think there might be something under the bed.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, sometimes I'm under there. Lewis and Maman had told him stories, but this. This dude tax collector named Constant Paulance. Paulance said they were real and that he had actually seen them. He said. Years before, the Haitian American sugar company offered bonuses to employees who brought in new workers. One brought a group of rough looking men and women saying they didn't speak Creole and they were put to work. And they were actually zombies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So zombie workers. That really sucks. If you're a zombie and you just kind of get put to work, it's not a great. Like you're. You're supposed to. You're like, no, we're taking over the world. Hey, guys, plant within the strings, okay? Keep these crops kind of lined up eight inches apart. Okay. But we want brains. Quiet. No, get back to work.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay, well, great workers. They just worked all day and week after week without saying anything.

[Gareth Reynolds]

If Jeff Bezos ever listened to this podcast, he will be whacking it.

[Dave Anthony]

Absolutely.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

So William and Constance set out on.

[Gareth Reynolds]

My package was supposed to be here five hours ago.

[Dave Anthony]

So William and Constant set out on horses and rode hours to a sugar cane field. And then Constance spoke to a field boss who said, quote, negro affairs are not for whites.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

But William didn't give a. And Constant trapped award tapped a worker on the shoulder. Quote, the man stood and Seabrook looked into his eyes. He reached out and grabbed one of the man's dangling hands. He shook it and said, bonjour, compare. The man stared back without replying, his eyes fixed on some distant horizon. William said his eyes reminded him of a lobotomized dog that he had seen in a university lab.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hey.

[Dave Anthony]

What?

[Gareth Reynolds]

All right, so I'm gonna jump in here with some other thoughts real quick.

[Dave Anthony]

By the way, you can get a lobotomized dog at petco.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Lobotomized dog in a lab.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What did we prove? That it's a terrible thing to do to a dog. Look at this thing. Oh, me.

[Dave Anthony]

They were the eyes of a dead man.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He only knows sit.

[Dave Anthony]

They were the eyes of a dead man. Quote. Great God. Maybe this stuff is really true. And if it is true, it is rather awful for it upsets everything. Yeah. Because they were walking dead.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

His book, the Magic island was a huge hit, as you said. 500,000 copies sold. His description, his descriptions created the western idea of zombies and voodoos that created. Right. Corpses staggering down the road. The other types of zombies were never thought of. Just the zombie cadaver. Sure.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No. So the jar zombies. We just. Whatever.

[Dave Anthony]

Cuz. Why? How is that fun?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, that's what I'm saying.

[Dave Anthony]

It's like that's, you know, but that's the real zombie.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't know.

[Dave Anthony]

Zombie.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't know if I agree with that.

[Dave Anthony]

Zombie.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, Pew's Playhouse.

[Dave Anthony]

The magical island was sensational.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's nice that they're doing jiu jitsu

[Dave Anthony]

in the building right now. The magical I was sensational. Reviews were great. A New York literary journal called it, quote, a man's story written for adult minds. Sure. Those who knew Haitian culture, however, did not agree.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Ah, interesting.

[Dave Anthony]

A Hollywood movie called White Zombie was made starring Bela Lugosi. So William was now seen as the top white reporter of the world's primitive cultures.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't love.

[Dave Anthony]

It's great. It's gray.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's the best white reporter. Border on indigenous culture. The Bella Lugosi movie is called White Zombie.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, White Zombie. So Katie and William are still married, but over the years they realize they're just not a match sexually.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay, now that's the chains one.

[Dave Anthony]

That's. No, that's his wife. Oh, that's the OG So she's ignoring all of his running around at this point. As his fame increased, he became more and more open about his love of snf. Him.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

He's still doing kink with Deborah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's the one.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. So that's been going on for a while now. In 1929, he meets Marjorie Worthington at a card game.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

Marjorie was with her husband and William just stared straight at her all night, by the way. Great.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's the way to do it.

[Dave Anthony]

Don't say a word.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That does say a word. Look through. Look through her. Her. Yes, and look at her and lock on her. Make her cry and make her know it's all you're doing. They like that. They like that.

[Dave Anthony]

They like that a lot.

[Gareth Reynolds]

They like that a lot. And then the first thing you say is, can I tie you up? They love that.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Can I buy you a chain?

[Dave Anthony]

Can I change you to a water heater?

[Gareth Reynolds]

May I. May you be captive. In a good way.

[Dave Anthony]

In a good way.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You get stuck at bathtub.

[Dave Anthony]

The next day he sent her roses.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

An author said she was, quote, a stiff, gentle woman with a soft voice and an unhappy face.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What the kind of description is that?

[Dave Anthony]

I love it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

By the way. In this era, if a woman has an unhappy face, that's not genetic.

[Dave Anthony]

I think it is.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's societal.

[Dave Anthony]

What?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. What are they supposed to be like? This is awesome. We can't have bank accounts.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, you're a bummer. So they start having an affair.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

William now has to top the last book.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure. Yeah. Not gonna be by the way again. That's. This is the issue.

[Dave Anthony]

And there's a French writer who's traveled the world and he published a book called Black Magic. And he tells William that he should go to. To West Africa to see the cannibals.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, me.

[Dave Anthony]

And William is off. Oh, God. In Liberia, he met with witch doctors and. And tooth wearing tribesmen. Right? Sure. So sort of the classic thing we think of in our head, the look. He saw rituals in which babies seem to be impaled on swords but would later reappear. Fine. So it's magic, huh? It's magic, sure. William also was babies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

William.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, it's not a bad. It's the same baby. They're not putting a baby on a sword. Come on. William was also given a pet monkey.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Dave, I'm on record on this show, whenever a pet monkey gets involved, things are about. It's bad. It's a bad part of the things.

[Dave Anthony]

Really.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, things are going to go worse.

[Dave Anthony]

This is whatever.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Whenever someone is capable of having a monkey pet, that's too much power.

[Dave Anthony]

It's when you tame the spirit of the man.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No.

[Dave Anthony]

He also wrote that he had tasted human flesh.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Alrighty, let's. What do you want to do here?

[Dave Anthony]

Quote. It tasted like a good, fully developed veal. Really weird comparison.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Literally an Epstein email.

[Dave Anthony]

Really weird comparison.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Tasted like really well developed veal.

[Dave Anthony]

It tasted like really well developed. Not able to move. Young. Very young. Yeah. Cow.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It tasted like, by the way, well developed veal. It's like a beef.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, it's like a baby. It's like a. It's like a baby.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Imagine if a baby cow got big. It's like a baby animal, but bigger but better developed. Like an adult baby. What do you call those? Oh, adults eating human. But by the way, if you're in that situation, I mean, really think about this, all right? You're in this situation. You're doing your embed thing. No, I mean, I'm sure he's fudging reality or whatever, but the food's out, you know, it's human. You're really on your own here. You're not even gonna try it?

[Dave Anthony]

I'm gonna try it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You're gonna be like, I don't want to be rude. The I don't want to be rude voice is going to probably outdo the I can't eat human. Yeah, you're probably going to take a bite and go, I had a budget guy before I got here. Yeah, you're gonna do it. I Guy never agrees with me.

[Dave Anthony]

We got all the time back in.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, I love guy.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. New York. We're all eating guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, we. Oh, I'm from Jersey. We eat guy Rose.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, In the book, he said it was a 30 year old guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He was a 30 year old guy. His name was Clark. He was awesome.

[Dave Anthony]

The book was called Jungle Ways.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

The Campbellism chapter was scandalous. The Montgomery advisor wrote, quote, so repellent is the subject that we hesitate to speak of it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

William said the critics were just upset that he ate black people, not that he ate with people. That he ate with black people, not that he ate them. Ah, that's called a great argument.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You're racist.

[Dave Anthony]

You don't like that I ate with a black guy. I ate a black guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Right.

[Dave Anthony]

You don't care.

[Gareth Reynolds]

White people and black people sitting down to eat a black guy. You don't like that. What the actual is your argument, my friend?

[Dave Anthony]

You're racist.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's racist.

[Dave Anthony]

You won't even eat a black guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What? Of course I wouldn't. Bamboo owned.

[Dave Anthony]

But he never actually ate human flesh in Africa. The tribal chief wouldn't allow him to as an outsider.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Please. That's even sadder. May I please try, man.

[Dave Anthony]

But he still wanted to eat human for the book, so. So he went to Paris and got a friend who worked in a morgue.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh. To give him this is so much more the idea. Wow.

[Dave Anthony]

To give a piece.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's like, listen, these cultures, they're not like us. Meanwhile, he went to Paris to eat a black.

[Dave Anthony]

Black market thigh.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, just some dude.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, a little black market. Larry.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Are you sure you want to try him? This is lovely.

[Dave Anthony]

So he Had a dinner party.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, my God.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, I ate it in the presence of witnesses and liked it no more or less than any other edible eat meat.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh.

[Dave Anthony]

But I'm sure human tastes like any kind of.

[Gareth Reynolds]

The idea of having a party. And it's morg based.

[Dave Anthony]

It is weird. I'll give you that.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I expect to be given at least that. I gotta pee. Can I pee real quick? Yeah. All right. It's just having to put gauze back on your balls.

[Dave Anthony]

All right. So he does a dinner party and a guest later said he did not tell them they were eating human.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I hate it.

[Dave Anthony]

What's wrong with that?

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's not the order.

[Dave Anthony]

Surprise, surprise meal.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's terrible.

[Dave Anthony]

That's how you do it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, you remember that Sasha Baron Cohen show, this is America? Yeah, he did that. This prisoner character who was reformed and became like, was trying to do more refined things. And one of them was a foodie. And he got this actual New York, like city foodie guy to sit down with him and he told the guy it was human and the guy ate it. Okay, it's coming these rich. Do you don't think Peter Thiel and Elon Musk would eat a man?

[Dave Anthony]

It would not surprise me at all.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But that reveal is wild.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

By the way, how did you like the duck? I've got some updates. That was a morg, man.

[Dave Anthony]

Morgman.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Morgman.

[Dave Anthony]

Did you like your morgman?

[Gareth Reynolds]

How did you like your man?

[Dave Anthony]

So now William invites Marjorie to join him in Perry. She and her husband had an open marriage, which was pretty common in Greenwich Village at the time.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure.

[Dave Anthony]

So she went and they were there for a year, and when they came back a year later, they discovered that her husband and Katie were now an item.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, interesting. Swapsy poop.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah, a little swap. That's a straight up swap.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah, sure.

[Dave Anthony]

So they filed for divorces and they headed for Timbuktu.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Now filing for divorce. Seems strange. You've just opened your marriage up and then you're like YouTube been.

[Dave Anthony]

I think they were YouTube been, but I think they were both like, we like the other couple better.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Interesting. So that's why full on swap.

[Dave Anthony]

At one point, William left her alone when they're in Tibuktu and flew off to look for a missing French pilot. And she came down with dysentery.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, Christ.

[Dave Anthony]

So he's just treating the ladies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, good Lord.

[Dave Anthony]

Back into Paris, William threw a cocktail party where he had a call girl shackled by her wrist to a post. Marjorie tolerated it, but she was humiliated.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What? What the is going on.

[Dave Anthony]

He's becoming more.

[Gareth Reynolds]

He's pushing the bounds.

[Dave Anthony]

Yes, he is. He's pushing the bounds of.

[Gareth Reynolds]

So he has a call girl tied up.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. Chained.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And the wife is. Or not the white. But Marjorie's like, this is weird.

[Dave Anthony]

Well, she's now just like. Okay, now you're just making me look like an idiot.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Anyone wants some man nachos

[Dave Anthony]

or man,

[Gareth Reynolds]

how cool is my little world?

[Dave Anthony]

What's a man balls?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Look at how good this little zone I've got cooking is.

[Dave Anthony]

This guy had his semen soldered.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's a normal procedure. Come on, now.

[Dave Anthony]

So she did not like the, quote, business of chains and leather masks that were so important to him. Oh, so he's shaming. Well, he's into a lady who's not into his kink. Right. So that's not a great mix. No. So he commissioned studded Still. He commissioned a studded silver collar for Marjorie Civil.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Collar, silver. Oh, my God. I thought he said civil.

[Dave Anthony]

And she wore it in a photo. And she looks miserable in the photo.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. Hey, you know, your girls don't need to be chipped.

[Dave Anthony]

But I think he likes that more.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Of course. Yeah. It's a big part of it.

[Dave Anthony]

The photographer who took that photo. Photo later wrote of an evening in which William asked him to watch a sex worker he'd hired to be a sub. She was chained to the stairs in his duplex. I mean, so now he's just got. Now he's got chain. He's got chain up a sex worker money.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

So he's just got. He's got him chained up around his house all the time.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Some R. Kelly vibes cooking here.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, she was nude except for a soiled, ragged loincloth with her hands behind her back, chained to the post with a padlock. She was being paid to do this for a few days. Was very docile and willing. I was to order dinner from the dining room. Anything we liked. Wine, champagne. But under no circumstances have the girl eat with us. She was to be served on a plate with the food cut up and placed on the floor near her. As for a dog get down on her knees to eat.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I. I don't love it.

[Dave Anthony]

That. But this. This girl is being paid to do it and seems into it. So it's a different animal.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure, sure. By animal, I mean lady dog.

[Dave Anthony]

Lady dog.

[Gareth Reynolds]

And I still don't. Yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

He is finding. Besides Marjorie, it seems to be. He does seem to be finding willing participants. Sure. As soon as William left, he on the guy unlocked her and had her eat with them. No, you'll be not eating on the floor. I would like to eat on the floor.

[Gareth Reynolds]

May I feed you from the table? The scraps.

[Dave Anthony]

So now William and Marjorie start spending a lot of time in the south of France in this Bohemian town there that all these artists go to.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sure.

[Dave Anthony]

William there walked around dressed like a French fisherman.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Such a strange little call.

[Dave Anthony]

And of course, on a leash, his pet monkey.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, Jesus. Well, Garcon and I had an amazing day at sea. Oh, all the things were caught. Besides venereal diseases. How does everyone like ocean trout? Oh, man. Garcon and I had an amazing day. We caught a group air things of that nature. I'm just from around here. A real fisherman, by the way, if any of you have daughters who I could chain to a radiator and feed the shells of oysters, that. That could be cool.

[Dave Anthony]

He told Marjorie to dress like a local market girl, and the locals named her the Beautiful Slave.

[Gareth Reynolds]

This is a market girl. She's a slave. Look at the silver C.

[Dave Anthony]

They hung out with Aldous Hus Huxley, the writer and his wife.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I hope he doesn't bring that damn monkey.

[Dave Anthony]

William had his money and fame, but not. Not Huxley's talent, which ate at him. It was a party town. And so William really starts drinking. And at some point, he isolates and just starts drinking alone.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Good.

[Dave Anthony]

Good sign.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Good. Let him go psychotic. Let's see what this brain can do.

[Dave Anthony]

And then he just stopped talking to people.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Not a bad thing.

[Dave Anthony]

He drank. He would drink until he passed out. Sure, Margie would try to cheer him up, but nothing worked. William wrote, quote, I'm told I've become like one of my own zombies. He eventually cabled his publisher and friend and said he was now a habitual drunkard.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

And he wanted to sail back to the US and have his publisher take him straight to a psychiatric ward to lock him down to get sober.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay?

[Dave Anthony]

And that's what happened.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Good. Good.

[Dave Anthony]

He was taken straight to Bloomingdale Asylum in White Plains on the day Prohibition ended. Just.

[Gareth Reynolds]

But that is the.

[Dave Anthony]

Just.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You can't quit a day. You can't quit drinking on St. Patrick's Day.

[Dave Anthony]

This is the craziest thing that's happened in the whole story.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That is the craziest day to decide. You're done.

[Dave Anthony]

That is, it's just one more day.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, or imagine you don't know. When you go in, when you come out. Shouldn't be hard. I mean, drinking's illegal. What the hell is going on Jesus Christ. Is that guy losing rum out of another guy's ass?

[Dave Anthony]

So he stayed in the asylum for seven months.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's a drinking problem.

[Dave Anthony]

Meanwhile, Marjorie is alone in Paris, and now she's saying she feels like a zombie. So the asylum has clay and grass, tennis courts, a gymnasium, dinner with linens, Swedish massages, psychoanalysis, a woodshed, more.

[Gareth Reynolds]

It's good. I would, by the way.

[Dave Anthony]

I'd go there for seven months without question.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'd be like, I'm never going to be cured. May I have another Swedish massage? The clay courts really do a number on my calves.

[Dave Anthony]

When it was over, he wrote a book called Asylum. It's considered the first celebrity rehab memoir.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, I wish it was the last.

[Dave Anthony]

Quote, I was locked up where I couldn't run away, either by boat or bottle. I had to stay with myself and look at myself. And it wasn't pleasant.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, the hell I went through.

[Dave Anthony]

Savage.

[Gareth Reynolds]

The volleyball. I had to learn.

[Dave Anthony]

So after he moved to Rhinebeck, New York, which is an artsy little town, sure, Marjorie came and they finally got married.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, he puts the collar on her neck. Where's the collar bearer?

[Dave Anthony]

His book, Asylum Influence, it's like, do

[Gareth Reynolds]

you, Marjorie, take William to be your husband?

[Dave Anthony]

I do.

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, no, no. I mean, I don't.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, yes.

[Gareth Reynolds]

She don't want to do it.

[Dave Anthony]

And do you take Marjorie to be your dog? Oh, yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, yeah. She's a bad girl. Bad girl. Come with Daddy. Bad girl. Come with Daddy. Eat the rose petals.

[Dave Anthony]

His book, Asylum Influence. The co founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson. Early editions of the big book reference William by name. The asylum staff had told him to go another six months after release without drinking, which he did.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

And then someone brought out Sherry at dinner.

[Gareth Reynolds]

The idea that he's. Oh, dear, my Achilles booze.

[Dave Anthony]

Marjorie said he came apart when he published the book these Foreigners about immigrants in America.

[Gareth Reynolds]

There it is.

[Dave Anthony]

Critics called it boring.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I love critics. What do you think of this xenophobic rant?

[Dave Anthony]

They said he wrote better when he was a degenerate drinker.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Terrible for him to hear.

[Dave Anthony]

He was now in his 50s, but still couldn't take criticism. And one day he came home with several bottles of whiskey in a paper bag. Jesus Christ.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Here we go. Let's go. Time. Daddy's back. He became obsessed when Covid was. For. When we were first, like. Like, shutting down for Covid. I was like. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen to liquors and weed stores. I was like, I don't know. The Amount of vodka and pot I bought in those first four days. Like, the. The guy at the liquor store was genuinely like, this guy's the greatest. I would come in the big one, he was like, I know which one. Give me two of those. There you go, my man.

[Dave Anthony]

He. He became obsessed with alternate realities and wanted to show the metaverse. He wanted to show the places a human mind would wander.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What?

[Dave Anthony]

So he bought. So he brought young women in for experiments in his barn?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Nope.

[Dave Anthony]

What?

[Gareth Reynolds]

No, this is science.

[Dave Anthony]

No, it's not a drunk guy being crazy in a barn. It's science.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I mean, young women into a barn for experiments. Oh, no.

[Dave Anthony]

He put them in bondage hoods.

[Gareth Reynolds]

By the way, this guy ate human.

[Dave Anthony]

Yeah. For science. This guy ate for lit, for art, for books. Yeah. Sometimes someone's gotta. Some artist has to do it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, no, he just got married. Now he's like, well, I'm gonna go into the she. Barn.

[Dave Anthony]

Type a lady. He put them in bondage hoods, and then he hung them by their wrists for hours.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Jesus. This is Abu Ghraib watching to see

[Dave Anthony]

if they would, quote, slip through a door of time. Have you never done that? Like on a Friday night when you meet a girl. Hey, you want to see if you can go into another reality?

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, my God. Oh, say. What do you say? You want to go get some drinks and then you can come to my barn where I'll bind your hands and we can see if you fall through time holes.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sound good?

[Dave Anthony]

He wrote a book, Witchcraft, Its power in the world Today. And he put some of his experiments in there.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Experiments? Is such an air quoting.

[Dave Anthony]

Oh, yeah. Parts of it may have been written by ghostwriter, but readers.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I've seen it all before. I drowned as a boy.

[Dave Anthony]

But readers are done with him. Like his. His style and that. That whole thing, it's. Yeah, it's gone.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Shark jumper.

[Dave Anthony]

I mean, it's. It's 20 years on, you know? So he starts writing syndicated newspaper pieces again to pay the bills. Ghost ships, human sacrifice, sex murders.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Blah, blah, blah. Sex murders. Yeah, blah, blah, blah.

[Dave Anthony]

Cult rings. Yeah. So Marjorie is getting more upset by his quote. I tried keeping. To keep things running smoothly while knowing that in the barn studio, some rather nice girl had been persuaded to let herself be hung by a chain from the ceiling until she was so tired, she hardly knew what she was doing or saying.

[Gareth Reynolds]

That's called time travel. She's travel.

[Dave Anthony]

It's not pain.

[Gareth Reynolds]

She's in the future.

[Dave Anthony]

William brought home a girl named Constance Kerr, and Marjorie felt she was different. Than the others. Kerr was older and had ideas about how things should go. She moved in and decided to 91 1. Decided to cure William of alcoholism. I have no idea what you're talking about. Some of us don't live in a world where when you reference crazy reality shows, we don't know what they mean.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Well, sounds like you need a wife. Swap.

[Dave Anthony]

Disagree. So one day, Constance had William roll up his sleeves.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

And then she put his into a pot of boiling water. What?

[Gareth Reynolds]

So they fight.

[Dave Anthony]

Clubbed quote. If you can't bend your arms, you can't drink.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm trying to poke a hole, but I'm having a bit of trouble.

[Dave Anthony]

So she found. He found him and a lady.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. So she took away the elbows. Now he can't really. I mean, by the way, it does take eating, handshaking, gesturing, reading, writing, masturbating,

[Dave Anthony]

throwing a lot of stuff, exercising the

[Gareth Reynolds]

upper body, ass, wiping everything off the table. But including that. Drinking.

[Dave Anthony]

Not really, because I could just pick up a bottle with my mouth and you're an Anthony. When Marjorie came home and saw William, she cured me.

[Gareth Reynolds]

His hands are just withered and babies. Honey, good news. I can't drink anymore. We put my arms in boiling water.

[Dave Anthony]

These black things are my elbow.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm done with drinking.

[Dave Anthony]

Look at my scaps.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What about a straw? Oh, yeah. What about a straw? Well, we're gonna have to burn that mouth. I wanted to call you, but I figured you'd say yeah.

[Dave Anthony]

So William oded Constance gone. But William said maybe she. Marjorie, should go live in the property cottage until sitting down with your burned arm.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You know, can I be honest, hon? I'm not sure on Constance. I like a lot about her, but I don't know when she put my arms up to the elbow in boiling water and made it so they don't work. Tell if I like that or not. Maybe you two should go live together.

[Dave Anthony]

No. Oh, he sent Marjorie out to the cottage.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh.

[Dave Anthony]

Constance stays in the house.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Sorry, different conversation. Run it back.

[Dave Anthony]

Hey, honey,

[Gareth Reynolds]

I gotta be honest. Ever since Constance came here, it feels like solutions are just falling from the sky.

[Dave Anthony]

You can't move your arms to eat.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Honey, let me finish.

[Dave Anthony]

Okay?

[Gareth Reynolds]

I think the problem with this whole thing is you're kind of here with a little too much judgment. Maybe you should go live in a cottage alone so Constance and I could figure out some more problems.

[Dave Anthony]

I'm gonna cut your arms off and shove them up your ass.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'm not gonna feel it. I also think she cured my ability to not play Soccer. Well.

[Dave Anthony]

So, Marjorie, let me.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Can you imagine like the man, the man's world of that?

[Dave Anthony]

It's crazy. It's.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Honey, I think you gotta leave.

[Dave Anthony]

It's so crazy. He said eventually I'll tire of Constance and you can come back.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Look, eventually, whatever she's doing, I won't like anymore. But up until now, it's been awesome. You know? I guess in retrospect, giving a seven year old heroin on a forest walk wasn't an awesome idea.

[Dave Anthony]

So Marjorie moves out to the cottage and she cooks him stews. And she would send them to William in the barn.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What the.

[Dave Anthony]

I mean, at some point you gotta like write a list. Pros and cons.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. Honestly, this is like marrying Brett Ratner.

[Dave Anthony]

But she finally realizes, comes to her senses, she can't take it, and she files for divorce.

[Gareth Reynolds]

On what ground?

[Dave Anthony]

I don't know.

[Gareth Reynolds]

What is she.

[Dave Anthony]

What did you want? Okay. Because he has a disability now.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Hanging in there after the elbow, boiling water. Thing is, it's a shame.

[Dave Anthony]

William publishes another book, no Hiding Places, which is an autobiography written by Foot. Time called it the Weird Year's Weirdest Autobiography.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Oh, I won the award. Not an award.

[Dave Anthony]

It's not good.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Not an award.

[Dave Anthony]

There's tons of lies.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Time every year with the person of the year where they keep being like, it's not about who's the best person. Can you stop with your fucking bullshit?

[Dave Anthony]

What if you make it about the best person?

[Gareth Reynolds]

How about that? Do that. Because I'll tell you what, I'm a little sick of Elon Musk and Donald Trump framing your stupid magazine scene.

[Dave Anthony]

So the book's full of lying and bragging and name dropping and lots of sadism. He acknowledged that he would only be remembered for zombies. Like, he realizes, like, that's going to be his only social significance.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I'll be honest. I'm going to remember him as the guy who burned his arms so he couldn't drink.

[Dave Anthony]

I'm going to remember as the guy who ate a people and pranked a party. Yeah.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Had everyone enjoy the food.

[Dave Anthony]

Constance gets pregnant.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Okay.

[Dave Anthony]

They had a son named William. Oh, God. When the boy was two, on September 30, 1945, William took a bunch of sleeping pills and killed himself.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Dave. Perfect.

[Dave Anthony]

Should happen sooner. Let's be honest.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I don't know how he got the pills to his mouth.

[Dave Anthony]

Not, not, not a great life. I mean, so he is an extremely.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I feel like I took heroin.

[Dave Anthony]

He is the godfather of zombies. He is the guy who created western zombies. Like, he is that's it. That's our guy now. Romano. Well, I can't think of the guy.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Ray Romano.

[Dave Anthony]

Ray Romano. George Romero would reinvent zombies and make it more like a political thing, you know, like capitalism. So it's kind of like the modern day zombie ish thing now. They've been stripped of that, but they were that they were his thing until Romero came along and then he changed it a little bit.

[Gareth Reynolds]

I just, I don't care for this man's life.

[Dave Anthony]

I don't know why he hates.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Very, very, very strange. But he's right. He was the. His. He had one hit it.

[Dave Anthony]

That's it.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Yeah. And.

[Dave Anthony]

And being a little bit of a kink. A kinky weirdo. Sources. The writer introduced Zombies to America by Emily Matcher and Atavist magazine and then The Age newspaper. January 8, 1944.

[Gareth Reynolds]

Man, I. Yeah, okay. What? I. I did a, a show in Albuquerque like two weeks ago. I was just talking to this guy in the front row and his wife wasn't with him. And I go, I'm like, you know where, like what? He's like, I'm like, what does she do? He like, didn't want to tell me what she did. And then he's like, she's George R.R. martin's personal assistant. And I was like, he lives, he lives it does. Like out there. I won't say where. He does live out there. Yeah, he does live out there. And now they're like, by the way, we could do a show at his. The. I was like, I want to meet this guy. Yeah, so. But it was like one of the greatest reveals ever. I was trying to explain to people, like anyone who was there. This one woman was like, who is he?

[Dave Anthony]

I was like, miss this.

[Gareth Reynolds]

You see this guy and he, he looks like a guy who plays chess in the park. And then you just. Inside of his head is one of the most mind palaced environments of all time. Guys just sitting there just like, like. And then they will they. But glass, icy glass kills them. You're just like, just some dude. Anyway, Shout out to Laudanum.

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[Gareth Reynolds]

Ugh.

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[Gareth Reynolds]

What?

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[Gareth Reynolds]

What's that?

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