← The Doula Darcy Podcast
The Doula Darcy Podcast
How Sleep Consulting Can Boost Your Doula Business with Jayne Havens of Center for Pediatric Sleep Management
00:35:15
In this episode of The Doula Darcy Podcast, host Darcy discusses the intersection of doula work and sleep consulting with her guest Jayne Havens. Jayne is the founder of Snooze Fest Sleep Consulting and the Center for Pediatric Sleep Management....
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to the Doula Darcy Podcast. I'm your host, Darcy, a business coach for doulas, and I love helping my fellow doulas master the art of marketing so that they can grow their businesses and help more families. On the podcast, I combine my decade of experience in Advertising with 14 years as a doula to empower other doulas with the marketing strategies and mindset shift gifts they need to attract more clients and create successful, fulfilling doula careers. Whether you're just starting out as a doula or you're looking to take your doula business to the next level, you're in the right place. Let's go. I'm thrilled today to welcome one of my business besties. I usually say doula besties, but she's not a doula. She's my biz bestie. This is Jane Havens of Snooze Fest, which is the name of her sleep consulting business. And then she's also the founder of the center for Pediatric Sleep Management. And we'll get more into your bio and all that later. But what I it hit me. I was at yoga today and I was like, I'm so excited to talk to Jane later. We talk all the time. A. But B, I realized today and what I really want to talk about is one of the biggest reasons. First of all, you're just an amazing person and I love picking your brain and I love just chatting with you. We were just talking about makeup before we what I One of the things I really admire about you and one of the things that why it's great for us to talk so frequently is that our businesses are very similar in that they're very simple and that it is just us over here. We've each built a pretty big business as just us. And yes, we I know we each hire out people for projects or little things like that, but we don't. Neither one of us has a team of people working for us, and neither one of us wants that. And I'm not saying at all that having a team is bad or a big business is bad, but I just don't want that. I have three kids. I have the busy life. Like, I want to earn enough money so that I can go skiing whenever the heck I want. And I want to help a lot of people. And I just, I want it to be simple and easy. And I know, Jane, that you do, too. So can you talk about that? Did you intentionally set out to build your business in this way, or did you just wing it like I did and then decide it was a great idea.
- [02:42]
B
Yeah. So, first of all, thank you for having me. I always love chatting with you. And for those of you who are wondering if you're watching on video, Darci and I were talking about makeup. Neither of us are wearing any. Oh, right, right. That's. That's the kicker to all of this. And I think that speaks to our businesses. Right, that we can run these successful businesses sitting at our kitchen table or in our living room and not put on a face of makeup and still get to do the work that we love and that helps to sustain our families. But also, like our hearts and our brains, it's all really good stuff. To answer your question about what I intended from the beginning, honestly, what my business looks like today is very different from my original intentions. I will say that I worked very hard to stay true to my original goals and dreams, which is really just to be able to, you use my brain, think critically and creatively and earn some income for my family while still being really present with my kids. That was my top priority, and it still remains a top priority today. As my business has grown, I have had to be really intentional about making sure that I continue to leave plenty of space for all of the things that are my top priority, which is caring for my kids and being present for my husband and playing tennis two to three times a week and meeting friends for lunch and mahjong. Like, I get to do all of that because I've built my business in a way that allows me to have what sounds. It's buzzwords, but it's also very true. The freedom and flexibility that I crave.
- [04:29]
A
I think that's the bottom of it, the core of it. Both of us, when we started, wanted to work. I loved how you say that like you wanted to use your brain. I just heard your podcast episode. Becoming a sleep consultant you were talking about. That's one of the reasons you started as a sleep consultant. You wanted. You were home with two kids and you wanted to use your brain a little bit. Same with me. I wanted to do something, but I did not want to go back to a corporate 9 to 5 cubicle. And this is another reason. I love having you on the podcast. You and I have done so many YouTube and Facebook lives. I'm. I think sleep consulting for doulas is such a great tool to give them that freedom back to have a little more time with their kids, to. And then another thing is like, maybe towards the. I don't want to say the end of your career, but later in your career as you're wanting to cut back on grueling in person work or overnight shifts, adding in some virtual sleep consulting is such a great way to still interact with families, do the work that we love, make a big impact, but not have that toll on your body or your family.
- [05:44]
B
Yeah, I think that in person support for brand new parents is so important. The work that doulas do should not be undermined. It is so crucial for brand new parents to have in person support in those early stages of parenthood. Like we should never change that. That being said, I think that we have to doula ourselves sometimes too. And I really wonder if it is truly sustainable to work overnight shifts long term for years or even decades and really be also committed to taking care of yourself. And so that's why I think that providing at least some support virtually, if not eventually shifting entirely to virtual support is a really beautiful thing. And I think we as I may not be able to call myself a doula yet. It is my intention to get trained. It is my intention. I may not be a doula, but I do consider myself to be a postpartum professional. So I'll put myself in that category. I think it's really important that we as birth and postpartum professionals take care of ourselves in addition to taking care of the families that we support and the families that we serve. And leveraging virtual support I think really does position us to have longevity in this career because it's not the same wear and tear on your body. I work during the day, I put my phone on silent when I go to sleep. I sleep through the night. And I get to support sometimes 6, 8, 10, even 12 families at a time, which you could never do if you're doing in person support. While I think the work of in person doula doula work is so crucial and very much needed. I think that there has to be balance in order to sustain your career long term.
- [07:38]
A
I'm really glad you say that because that's not what I was trying to insinuate at all. That doula shouldn't be working in person, but it's impossible. It's impossible to work as a doula in person, as you said, for decades, at the pace that you need to do it to earn the income you need to earn. If you're doing it as a hobby, great. But going to six births a month is not sustainable. And so what I see is doulas burnout and then go to a different career. I think when I love helping doulas create digital courses or virtual coaching as doulas birth plan. There's a million opportunities. But I think training and certifying as a sleep consultant is like a fast track because it's a people. As much as people maybe haven't heard of sleep coaching, they understand it as opposed to be a virtual postpartum doula or offer all this great other stuff that you have to explain. The other thing is if people are tired they will pay to fix that problem. It I just think that between those two things like the way and the way you train people, you give them an exact business plan. It's not even like doula training where you learn to be a doula and then you're left to go figure the rest out on your own in your program. I know for a fact you do both things like you teach all the sleep science consulting, all that and the business stuff. So it gives. If you're not watching the video, I'm like signing that like Jane is like giving you the road map and the scaffolding to. I think the thing and about doulas is the best way to build this business is to have some kind of hybrid option where you're doing some in person support which is what doulas want to do. That's the part we love. And then offering some kind of virtual additional revenue stream. And if it's sleep consulting, that's amazing. So the other thing for doulas is whether you're a birth doula or a postpartum doula sleep once the baby's born and once you get through that postpartum period, the 12 weeks and our job as a doula is wrapping up parents number one concern after that is sleep and lack of sleep and how do I get my baby to sleep and oh my God, the four month sleep regression is coming and then the eight month and this and that. And as a postpartum doula I am always that first call when parents have questions about sleep. And wouldn't it be great if you were a trained certified sleep consultant that could say yes, let's hop on a call and let me help you with this problem. And then I'm just so passionate. I think sleep is just so vital. The whole entire world is sleep deprived. It's so important for physical and mental health that I'm just so passionate. I think doulas need to know how to help parents and babies get more sleep. Let's talk about how virtual sleep consulting can really help doulas fill in the cracks between their existing doula shifts. Existing doula Contracts like how does that work as a sleep consultant?
- [10:56]
B
Sure. So I provide 100% virtual support. I don't go into any of my clients homes. Most of the families that I support actually don't even live local to me. And I bring that up because I really do think another challenge that doulas come up against is like their immediate vicinity. Right. Like most doulas, especially if you're working an 8 or 10 or a 12 hour shift, driving home on a crappy night of sleep, if you have a 45 minute drive or an hour and 15 minute drive, is not only undesirable, but it's also potentially unsafe. And so all of my work is virtual. And I'm not limited to supporting families in Baltimore, Maryland, which is where I live. My clients are in New York and New Jersey and Connecticut and they're in Paris and they're in the UK and they're in Canada. They literally can be anywhere, which is absolutely fantastic. What I will say is that if you're, whether you're in between jobs, if you're serving families as a postpartum doula or even as a birth doula, or not even in between jobs, but while you're working jobs, there's no reason for why you can't take on a virtual client. My work is all done. I give them, I give my families that I support a written sleep plan. I do a 30 to 40 minute phone call to go over the plan, answer their questions, make sure that they feel confident with the strategies outlined, and then I provide text message support over usually about a two week period. And then we do a wrap up phone call towards the end of our time. So this is absolutely something that can be done in the nooks and crannies of your existing contracts that you already have if you have a slow period. You absolutely can ramp up your marketing for virtual support if you have a couple weeks free on your calendar. But even if you don't have a couple of weeks free on your calendar, you still can provide this support while you're doing in person doula work. The other thing I want to bring up is that a lot of doulas, because they really do, they feel most comfortable supporting families in person. And the idea of providing virtual support is really uncomfortable. At least this is what I've experienced with the doulas who enroll in my program is I teach them how to do virtual support and then they're still drawn to like in person sleep consulting because it's just they're very hands on and that's what they're used to. What we've been talking about inside of our center for Pediatric Sleep Management community is that you actually can do a hybrid model where maybe if you have a break in your schedule between postpartum clients, maybe you can go and spend 2, 3, 4 nights in person doing the heavy lifting and getting everything going in person and then pivot to 10 days or two weeks of virtual support. And that's a great way to still feel like you're in control and you're hands on and you're there supporting moms and dads. But then you don't have to be there the entire time because once you really get them set up and you get them going and you show them what it all looks like, you don't have to be there for 14 nights. You can be there for three or four nights and then support them via text message and audio notes and an occasional phone call for the remaining 10.
- [14:09]
A
And that I love that because that's the thing. I was gonna have you walk through and you did like your two week virtual package with a family. But that doesn't mean that's how everybody has to do it. You can make your sleep consulting packages fit your life and fit your. What you want them to be. And I just remember when I was a postpartum doula, there was a time my kids were all in school, but I wanted to be home with them from 3:30 to on. And so I would work like 9 to 1 or 10 to 2 and I had, there was still time in the day where I didn't have my kids. I could be working, but it just didn't, it wasn't like I could go pop over and be someone's postpartum doula for an hour and a half before I went to school pickup. But I sure as heck could have written some sleep plans or done a, texted back with a few families. It's, it would have been. And I, I always, I remember those years like what could I do? Like how could I. The other thing was I wasn't earning enough income some weeks if I just didn't. If the babies didn't all get born in the exact scenario that I needed them to be born in. That's the thing. It's so unpredictable as a doula. And I think sleep consulting gives you this avenue to fill in those holes. And then like you said, create any kind of package. Maybe you go for an hour and teach in person and then teach it virtually for their friends and family that are spread out all over the world that after that they love you. The other thing is what you learn in your training they can use on their postpartum doula shifts.
- [15:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. Another sort of amazing reason, I think to add sleep consulting to your doula business is that it just makes you a better doula.
- [16:01]
A
I really firmly believe that 1 million percent.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah, it makes you a better doula because when parents are hiring postpartum doulas, all they care about is getting, I think not all, but like a big piece of what they care about is getting a full night of sleep. And not only knowing that they're going to get a full night of sleep, but in an ideal world once the contract has ended that they're not going to be left with like hot mess express to. Well, yeah, way of saying it right. I think that doulas who position themselves as leap based, sometimes we hear like sleep based ncs. Like an NCS that's job is literally to show up and implement sleep shaping and get the baby into a routine and a groove where maybe at that 12 week mark they're either sleeping through the night or maybe they're waking up once for a quick feed and then going back down. A lot of doulas come to me and they say, I just wish I knew how to do this. I wish I knew how to give my clients. I wish I could give them 12 weeks of my time and then leave them and know that by the end of our time together, this baby's going to be in a really good spot with regard to their sleep. And I think a lot of doulas, they're not getting that in their doula education.
- [17:16]
A
Oh God no.
- [17:17]
B
And, and so I just want to.
- [17:19]
A
Say it's such a gift to those parents to be able in those first 12 weeks to establish good sleep. And this is not cry it out and all that crap. This is just establishing, literally just establishing.
- [17:30]
B
Habits and routines and expectations. Babies are very moldable and they have their like, habits and behaviors. And for a baby who is used to sleeping on a caregiver's chest all day long, that is just like their preference, that is their habit. That's what they've been taught is how they should sleep. And babies who are put into their cribs or bassinets and swaddled and given maybe a little shush and jiggle and a stroke from the forehead down the nose, like those babies who are conditioned to sleep on their backs, which is the safest place for them to be from day one, they learn that that becomes actually their preference. My little niece, who's now seven months old. And this was true with my nephew, too. My brother was so regimented with his baby's sleep, probably partially because I'm his sister, and then also because he was so scared of sleep deprivation that he was willing to do anything to get it right from the beginning. These two babies, both of them never actually really slept well on somebody like they. They preferred to be on their backs in their crib, in a dark room with a sound machine. That was their preference because that's all they ever knew. My brother just put them down, and he did a little bedtime routine. He swaddled them up, put them down, and they learned. That's how I sleep. So that's how they slept. And.
- [18:51]
A
Well, that's my favorite thing to teach my clients is because it was my favorite thing to learn as a new mom is that I just thought, oh, you have a baby, and they just. They eat when they need to eat, and they sleep when they need to sleep. And as. No, as parents, we can do things to encourage them to sleep, and it's our job to watch and make sure they're not getting overtired. And so just that in those first few weeks. And back to what you were saying about people know about the sleep deprivation that's coming. This is another reason I think this is so great as a doula, to add this training on to your credentials is we always, as doulas, birth doulas and postpartum doulas, talk about the fact that parents don't know what they don't know. Like, they don't know. You don't know that you need a birth doula. You don't know that you need a postpartum doula to help you because you're gonna have stitches and this and that and the milk coming in, and you just don't know any of this stuff. You do know. Everybody knows. Everybody has heard that they're going to be tired. Oh, sleep now. Enjoy it now. Because when the baby comes, like, people know that. So if you show up to an interview and you're a certified doula and a certified sleep consultant, guess who's going to get hired over the doula? That's not because these parents know, right? Is that what you find? That.
- [20:15]
B
Absolutely. Not only are they going to get hired, they're going to get hired at a higher hourly rate than their competitors. If we want to use that word. I feel like that's a word that maybe People don't like to use in fields like doula work, but because we're all working together. But, but yes, I think that doulas who are also certified sleep consultants are commanding higher hourly rates. They're getting better jobs, they're working with families. I think that it's really valuable for the doula for your own physical and mental health to be working with families who value good sleep hygiene for their kids. Because if you're being hired with the expectation that you're going to work towards healthy sleep hygiene for this baby, then you're going to put in some hard work for the first four to six weeks and then you're going to start to see really long stretches of sleep overnight and you're going to have an easier time. Right. That's going to make your job easier. You're going to get to rest on the job more than if you have a baby that has no independent sleep skills, no habits, no routines. That's a harder job for you, right?
- [21:20]
A
Oh yeah.
- [21:21]
B
Why not set yourself up for success so that you can actually put that baby down, get a few hours of rest and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
- [21:29]
A
Yeah, that's so great. The other one more point I want to make about having the skill to be a sort of to be a sleep consultant, sleep coach is that as you're, I'm all about designing your business to fit your life as you go through different transitions. Whether it's like you just had a new baby and you want to stay home for a little while, you haven't taking care of, taking care of an aging parent, or you want to travel for a few months and not be like tied to your location. This is another thing, like you can dial down the doula support and ramp up the virtual sleep consulting, which I just think the freedom in that, especially as moms like, it's amazing.
- [22:16]
B
So yeah, why not? Darcy and I are always on the same page about this. I like, we're always on vacation at the same time, right?
- [22:22]
A
Because we both take a lot of vacation.
- [22:25]
B
You're on a mountain somewhere and I'm at my in laws lake house or whatever. It may be my favorite, but we're.
- [22:32]
A
Both usually still working. My favorite was the day we were both on a boat, but we were messaging each other about something.
- [22:38]
B
I saw a picture of you like posting a selfie of yourself on a.
- [22:41]
A
Boat and I was like, oh, I'm.
- [22:42]
B
Gonna send you a selfie. I'm on a boat too. And really like, you have to design that for yourself. Nobody's gonna hand that to you. Nobody's going to hand that to you. And you have to go out and get it. And it's not as hard as it feels it might. It's not as hard as it feels like. It's literally one step, one foot in front of the other, working towards your big goals. I talk a lot about this. Like, I like to set little micro goals and make tiny little shifts and transitions in my business that make my job easier, not harder. Actually, as my business has grown and my income has climbed, I actually work less.
- [23:21]
A
Yeah.
- [23:21]
B
Because I have systems. Systems in place and I have optimized. And Darcy, I. You and I were talking about this before our. We started recording, but I really don't do that many things in my business. Like I only have two or three offerings and I just offer them over and over and over again. And my messaging is always the same. And the way I support my clients is always the same. And the way that I enroll students into CPSM is always the same. And I'm not throwing spaghetti at the wall. I'm not reinventing the wheel and I'm not always to find the new shiny object. I'm just continuing to like, I don't know, it's literally, here's what you're doing, but let's.
- [24:03]
A
Let me just tell everyone Jane's business plan. You're active on Facebook, you're social on Facebook. And then you have real conversations with people and then you help them and then.
- [24:16]
B
And I have an email list too. I, I'd like to give.
- [24:18]
A
Well, but you're not. I mean, you can. There's so it's not like you have this complicated Instagram.
- [24:25]
B
Yeah, I don't have funnels and opt ins and freebies and this and that. None of that. Like, I literally have one way to get onto my email list and you can read my emails and you can hang out with me in my Facebook group and I actually talk to people. Most of my students who enroll in cpsm, I actually know them personally before they enroll, and that's by design. And it's the same thing with my clients with Snooze Fest. I actually get to know them before they hire me. And that is very much by design because when you're supporting families through something stressful like establishing healthy sleep hygiene for your kiddo for the first time, that sometimes can be really stressful for parents. I want to make sure that we're all on the same page, that we're a good fit for working together. I want to make sure. That like our parenting philosophies align. And so I spend a lot of time just actually getting to know people and having conversations, which is actually one of the most enjoyable parts of my business. I love that. And even if they don't hire me, I've had a lot of people who get on calls with me and don't hire me, but then refer me to their friends. That's just like all a part of the work that I do. When you can create something that fits in your lifestyle, it works on your own schedule and your own timeline. And you can do it whether you're sitting at your kitchen table or you're sitting in carpool line or you're on a boat at your in laws lake house. That is, that's living the dream.
- [25:46]
A
It is. And I'm really glad that this conversation turned this way because there's so many of you. And if you start paying attention to the bro marketers that are like, you've got to build this big business with all these funnels and this automated this and digital virtual coaching this. It's. They're taking the human out of the business and making all this complicated stuff. And then the people that have businesses like that are stressed out and always trying to hack the system and hack their funnels and all that.
- [26:21]
B
And they're also just not as profitable. Right. Like when you have all these people working on your systems and all of these different moving parts, like all of that is expensive. Right. And I'm able to run a very sort of profitable business. It's very lean, but my expenses are very low. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:42]
A
It's simple and it's human and it's, you're providing a legit actual service that works, that helps people. And so that's the other thing of, you know, you've been doing it this long and yes, you've built a beautiful, simple, clean business. But also that's the other benefit of doing something for a while now you have all your raving clients and all the people that have taken your certification through center for Pediatric Sleep Management, they're all out in the world referring back to you. So that's another piece of sticking with this, keeping it simple, doing a good job and providing a really excellent service. I think I, I just love it because I see so many people and we talk about this in my doula village all the time like that you hear the people, the gurus saying, like to create these big complicated machines of business and you just don't have to do that if you don't want to. If you want to go for it. But. But Jane and I are over here not doing that, and I have to throw in. Speaking of designing your life, we're gonna. We get to hang out together in a few weeks in Florida at the birth worker retreat. So if you guys wanna come and meet both of us, go to thebirthworkerretreat.com and get your ticket.
- [27:59]
B
I was thinking about it. For doulas to sign up, to come to that, they really needed to plan in advance or they need to take a significant. They need to take time off. Right. Because you can't provide doula support and be in Tampa or in Clearwater at the same time. Right. And for me, I signed up to come to this retreat immediately. When I saw it, I was in right away. Because for me, there's no conflict, there's no schedule. I don't have to defer business to come meet with other birth professionals.
- [28:33]
A
Oh, I know. I don't even know if you remember, but you and I took a walk one day, which was awesome. It was beautiful. So we were out walking, talking, getting our exercise, but at one point, like, you were like, hold on, I just have to respond to this parent. And then at another point on the walk, I had to respond. I was helping a family. They were like triple feeding. And I could do that. We both could do that. We could pause five minutes, provide our clients with the feedback they needed, and then get back to being on a retreat. Yeah, it was. And it was just great to. That was where I finally met you in person last year, last January, after.
- [29:10]
B
Which is the craziest thing, because it felt. I don't want to say it felt anti climatic, but it felt like it wasn't the first time that we were meeting because we talk on Zoom all the time. We talk all the time.
- [29:20]
A
Yeah.
- [29:20]
B
Yeah.
- [29:20]
A
Like you're like my best friend and you live in Baltimore and I'm up here in New Hampshire. So we have to get together on these retreats. We are running out of time. But I just want to say I know dozens and dozens of doulas, birth and postpartum doulas, that have gone through your center for Pediatric Sleep management certification program. They all rave about it. They all love that they have a lifetime access, like there's no renewing or recertifying, and that you are in touch with them forever. You have such an active Facebook group. Like, you don't leave people hanging. You help them with the business side. Everybody loves it. I want everybody. I just think it's a very clear roadmap for doulas who need to add in another revenue stream to their doula business. That just makes a lot of sense.
- [30:13]
B
Thank you. I appreciate it. I. I always say that I always thought that my favorite thing about my work was helping families teach their babies and toddlers to sleep through the night. But I think now in my career, the way that I would answer the question about what my favorite part is about my work work, it's actually supporting other women, specifically postpartum professionals, but supporting other women through the process of growing successful businesses of their own. And I think that's something you can relate to as well.
- [30:43]
A
Absolutely.
- [30:43]
B
There's no better feeling than taking somebody who's, like, shy and timid, nervous and perhaps insecure about starting something scary and new and turning them into, like, a badass business owner that is unstoppable. And every single time that happens inside of my CPSM community, like, it just literally never gets old. I could watch that happen over and over again. So, you know, if you're listening, of course I'd love to have you inside of my circle. And if you're listening, you're probably already inside of Darcy's circle, and she's just the same. Has the exact same value. So either way, you can't go wrong.
- [31:25]
A
I know. I love it. It is the best. I would say the same thing that's. I started, like, I wanted every family to have a doula, and I wanted to help doulas with their marketing. And now my favorite thing is, like, seeing women get all this freedom back to their life, and while they're still doing work that they love in a way that doesn't take them away from their family. It's just it, literally, it, like you said, it doesn't get old. It is the best, and I love it so much. So I will put all the links in the show notes. But your website is the cpsm.com yeah.
- [32:04]
B
And I would say, like, the best place to connect with me is in my foot group called Becoming a Sleep Consultant. And I have a podcast with the same name, Becoming a Sleep Consultant. If you're a doula and actually you have no intention of ever becoming a sleep consultant, I still think that Becoming a Sleep Consultant podcast is a great resource. It's really all about business building and entrepreneurship through the lens of sleep. But a lot of the topics that we talk about, overcoming fear of failure and imposter syndrome and how to market yourself, and whether it be on Instagram or Facebook or just in person, how to nail a discovery call how to support moms who are struggling with perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Like all of that is covered on our podcast, which is a completely free resource. So I encourage all of your listeners to.
- [32:51]
A
It's such a good podcast and that free Facebook group. Becoming a sleep consultant. I learned so much about sleep. That's like a treasure trove of information. That's such a great Facebook group for people to and again connect with you, send you a DM on Facebook. If you have more questions, well just reach out, find Jane on Facebook Jane Havens and send her a message. And also head over to my Doula Darcy YouTube channel. You can see other interviews where we've done, where we went a little more in depth about the program and just sleep consulting in general. The last thing I want to say before closing up is just another reason I love you is that you are your certification program is very doula minded in that you teach the people that take it everything about sleep. Every. What's the word? Every kind of sleep train. So that.
- [33:47]
B
And then so it's really, it's very much. I describe it as like, like completely comprehensive. So there's no bias, there's no agenda. We teach it all, we're committed, can.
- [33:57]
A
Work with parents where they're at and help them do what they want to do, which is just the doula way. And so I think it doves tails very nicely and I wanted to just make that clear that it's not like your graduates come out with a certain style or program or anything like that. It's education, it's evidence based and it's awesome. So follow Jane, come hang out with us in Florida and I hope you all have a great day. Thank you for tuning in to the Doula Darcy podcast. I hope you found this episode valuable and I'd love for you to join me on the next one. Let's keep the conversation going. Shoot me a date DM on Instagram Hedula Darcy or join my free Facebook community, the Doula Marketing Group, where we dive deeper into growing your doula business. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast on your favorite platform. Your feedback will help more doulas discover the show, which in turn helps more families find the doula support that they need. And I believe that that is how we save the.