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Celeste Rivas Death & Judge Mullins Murder: FBI Profiler Breaks Down Two Cases of Silence-WEEK IN REVIEW
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Exclusions and more terms apply. Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowes.com Terms subject to change. Hi guys.
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Here's my morning routine.
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First I drink olive oil.
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Next I take an ice bath. Ooh, feeling super healthy. If your health advice sounds strange coming from a kid, maybe it's just strange. Psygnos pairs AI with a biosensor so you can track your body's unique responses to food, movement and more in real time, helping you achieve your health goals. Get $10 off select plans@signos.com s I g n o s.com with with code Spark Signos hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and, well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy, but I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary.
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Needs, but they've just got it all, so farewell. Oatmeal.
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So long, you strange soggy.
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Break up with bland breakfast and taste.
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AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with K tree eggs, smoked bacon.
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And melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM P M. Too much Good stuff. This is Hidden Killers Week in Review.
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A look back at the most prolific.
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Stories of the week.
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This is Hidden Killers live with Tony Bruski, Stacy Cole and Todd Michaels. All right, today we are stepping into one of the most extraordinary and troubling cases I think that we've ever covered. And we still don't know most of the details. That's what makes it so damn elusive. It's the case that isn't just about one act of violence, but about what? Confess inside a justice system when power goes unchecked. In September 2024, inside the Lecter County Courthouse in Whitesburg, Kentucky, Sheriff Sean Mickey Steins walked into the chambers of District Judge Kevin Mullins. It opened fire. We all saw it on video. Judge Mullins died there in his own office. The entire shooting captured on courthouse surveillance. Stein surrendered immediately. He's now indicted for the murder of a public official and awaiting trial. But that single moment didn't happen in a vacuum. Three days earlier, Stein's had been deposed in a federal civil rights lawsuit Adkins vs Fields that alleges a pattern of sexual exploitation and coercion tied to the very courthouse where the shooting occurred. In that suit, a former home incarceration officer has already pled guilty for SA sodomy and tampering. Plaintiffs allege some of the misconduct took place inside Judge Mullins Chambers. Stein's was named in that lawsuit for alleged failures of supervision. Though not accused of any sort of SA wrongdoing himself after the shooting. Body cam footage shows Stein's distraught and paranoid, pleading not to be harmed. His lawyers have filed notice of an insanity or extreme emotional disturbance defense. Prosecutors are opposing bond and have not ruled out seeking the death penalty at the time. Women are now stepping forward publicly, some on the record, with journalists like Brian Anton describing how power, fear and retaliation kept them silent for years. They've alleged ask for favors arrangements, threats of losing their children, and a courthouse culture that blurred the line between justice and exploitation. These are allegations, not criminal convictions against Judge Mullens. But they frame the environment Stein's inhabited before he pulled the trigger. This isn't just a Kentucky story. It's a cautionary tale about what can happen when a small town justice system becomes a closed ecosystem and accountability collapses. How does an officer sworn to uphold the law reach the point of killing a judge? How do victims weigh speaking out when every official holds power over their freedom? And how can a community rebuild trust when the courthouse itself has become the crime scene? To help us untangle the behavior in this and the power dynamics at play, Robin Drake, retired FBI special Agent, former chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral analysis program. Robin, again, we. I just saw the interview recently Brian Enten did with another one of the individuals who's making claims of the, the ask for favors situation there in the courthouse. And then you got the sheriff who just days earlier was in that deposition, certainly had a good understanding of what the charges were at stake and what was going on. What kind of psychological profile do you think he had the sheriff had as he walked into that courthouse that day that he took the judge's life?
- [05:13]
B
Boy, I've gone full circle on this one a couple times, Tony, because we keep getting more data coming in and I'm boiling it down to this right now. With the more data coming in, we're starting to see a lot more smoke. When I first started seeing this, I was like, I was thinking we got a rare occur, very rare occurrence of a potential psychotic break because some data points are going in that direction because of patterns of his past behavior. And all Those things. But as we start, and as Brian Etten's doing a great job of seeing Smoke, we might not have quite the psychotic break I was originally thinking. Because if so psychotic breaks, typically if someone is having an episode, they're very random. Paranoia goes in there, which we're seeing some things with him wearing his vest and all those things that have been reported. But what's pulling me away from the psychotic break and, and we might have a pattern of really bad abhorrent behavior that led to this is the fact that all of his actions of apparently being paranoid were centered around the courthouse. And so I'm thinking we're going to find out a lot of dirty things in, in the days and weeks to come. And I think, I think he had a plan. I think he'd been playing it for a while because that's where I'm leaning to right now. I don't. I'm. I'm less on the side of the psychotic break thing. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it.
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A
Almost. The courthouse being a triggering factor.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:47]
A
And that's an interesting thing considering when you consider the chambers itself are at play in this conversation of the allegations that things were happening in the judge's chamber itself. How much do you think. I mean, obviously we are missing a big piece here because, well, Kevin Mullins is dead, the judge. And the allegations are that some of these things took place in his chambers. He is not listed in that civil suit, but obviously another individual is and there has been charges there. But the fact that his own office, his own chambers basically being listed as is a place where some of these things took place and there has been allegations. Again, Kevin's dead. How much are we missing here? Because. Because he's dead. Before I ask too many other questions.
- [07:39]
B
Yeah, I think he's going to be obviously a centerpiece of the puzzle because that's where the seat of power was in the power of control. You know, I started getting tinges of Alec Murdoch case on this.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Just because of that power, control and small town vibe, you know, kind of almost a little. A little like what you call it, Richard Allen and Delphi, small town. And so when you see again, as investigators, hopefully what they're doing is, and I don't have any reason not to believe it is when you see Smoke and you have allegations, you have to run all those allegations down. And even though you have a seat of power at the top which is controlling things, there's going to be people around them, especially since there was charges against someone else, one of the bailiffs, I think it was, you know, in this case. And so I, I'm hoping we're going to get some data leakage on this one because his behavior, the sheriff's behavior changed at a very certain point and it became very focused, even though the end that observed paranoia became very focused again around that courthouse, around a lot of boys, a lot of, a lot of crazy, unhealthy behavior isn't there that seem to pop up and spring up. I think again, if I'm throwing on my conjecture hat, which is all we have at this point is that he all of a sudden had an aha moment. And when his aha moment happened, he then put on his investigator hat and took a deeper dive and he didn't like what he found. And I think again, pure conjecture at this point. That leads me more to the, to the, to the plan rather than a psychotic break.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Robin?
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B
Yes, Stacey?
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C
So I've got a question, and obviously it's a very broad question. Do you think this is going on in other municipalities across the nation? Do you think this is a one off? Do you think that there are elements of this just based on what you've seen in your career? Do you think that this is something that's going on in other communities? That there's just this bubbling cauldron of something that's about to blow in another community?
- [09:44]
B
So I don't think it's systemic as a quick answer, because it's just not. But at the same time, the old rule of if you see one, there's probably 10 others. And so, and typically what we do in what we do here and what media does is we, it's, it's easier to kind of find and focus on the abhorrent behavior. And one of the reasons we do that is so we can prevent it in other areas too, because in each case that we look at and examine, there's red flags that led up to this. And one of the things we do as both opinion pieces that we do as well as investigative pieces that we try to, I think blend the two together here is bring light to it so we can prevent these things from happening in all the other cases. But that being said, I don't think systemic because why are these things not systemic? Because a lot of people have to know. And by and large as a species, we are good people. We want to do moral and ethical things. One of the reasons we have laws is to have accountability for each other. And you know, we are our brother's keeper. And so in these larger municipalities, it's harder to do these things. But are there smaller areas where there's family control for periods of time? There's an. A slow boiling frog, which a little bit of bad behavior here over a period of time, escalating becomes more acceptable and more. More and more acceptable until you have one person that finally says, I've had enough, or they move in from out of town and they're not part of that cult. And so. But again, long answer to. I don't think systemic, but I do. I think there's others. Yes, there's. It's hard not to imagine there isn't others.
- [11:19]
A
It makes you wonder just, you know, how much of it, you know. You know, they all kind of. When it happens, it comes to the surface at different times. It doesn't seem like this is coming to the surface because of any sort of other existential factors in society. I mean, more so other than, you know, this event exposed it. That there already was an event that exposed it. The initial lawsuit that was filed, and then others realizing, oh, God, gosh, we haven't heard a lot of anything from anybody within the law enforcement area, within the courthouse area, within anything of the legal judicial system, People who work in that building, basically. We've heard a lot from other people on the outside. A lot of women have come forward with these allegations of coercion tied to their legal outcomes. Why do you think it is that we haven't heard a lot of, I don't know, tampering that down? If it's not true? You would think that if some of these things were not really going on, you would hear a lot more. That's not how our courthouse works. No. We hear dead silence. It seems to be a lot of crickets about what actually goes on in this courthouse from anyone who's working the front desk to the judge.
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B
Yeah. What people don't say is most importantly.
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A
Yeah.
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Important is what people do say. You can learn a lot by what is said and what is not said, timing of all those things. And yeah, science can be deafening and can be very revealing as well. And again, you can't jump to a conclusion. But you can also say we need to take a deeper look, because why isn't that happening? What's the golden objective of not saying something? Is it because they're really well organized in their media releases and their public publicity people, or is because they're deathly afraid? You know, fear is always the greatest motivator of all of Us, and it's what keeps people from saying things is fear. And then we rationalize our behaviors. So it could always be going on. It's possible.
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A
And I want to talk about that, the rationalizing of the behaviors. And I'm not saying, like, everybody in this courthouse is doing something wrong, but there's a lot of people I'm going to assume in the courthouse who have some knowledge of the wrongdoing or at least the inkling of it. And it's like, well, what am I gonna do about it? I work over here at the mail room. As if that's even a position anymore. But other ancillary parts around the building where you're not. They weren't involved in these things. But, you know, rumors travel, and you go, oh, I think I know that that's going on. But there's nothing they could have done about it if they wanted to stay employed. And there's that pressure to be quiet because if you were to make a. An accusation and you can't prove it, well, then you're gonna get sued. And so there's a lot of reasons to be quiet. But at the same point, is it. I guess I'm wondering how much when you're living in an environment like that day after day, is it living in fear of exposing it, or is it just. It's so normalized. I'm wondering how people in that courthouse are feeling right now as all this goes on. On the outside. We look at this going, oh, my gosh, like, this is. This is twisted stuff here. And if we were to assume that others have some knowledge here and are, you know, doing exactly what I just said, are they living in fear or. I'm wondering if they're looking at this as, oh, come on, this happens everywhere. The. The. The rationalizing of the behavior. They. Yeah, it's not good, but I wonder how much of that goes on. That. That also further solidifies the thought that there's this level of unhealthy craziness around it. But we can't quite accept the level to which it is because it's so extreme. So we normalize it down to another place.
- [15:04]
B
It's probably a little bit of everything. So here's one of the laws of human nature is we're always going to act in our own best interest in terms of our safety, security, and prosperity from our own point of view, from whatever context and situation we're living in. And so all these individuals are acting in what they think is their best interest of. And comes down to fear. Fear of reprisal, fear of not being able to move. And what that looks like to that individual could be very different. So say you have one individual that is waiting that, hey, something was going on. So they're going to keep their mouth shut because they're fearful that someone's going to find out that they were involved. You can have others that had no idea anything's going on. But now they're hearing these allegations and they're fearful of being connected in some way. So they're going to keep their heads down. There's all kinds of reasons why people are taking the actions they're taking. And it's hard to predict exactly what's causing it. But we're getting data on all this and so the rationalizing of it. We rationalize things when we want to believe, we want to believe what we want to believe. And if we have a job, because remember, we're going to act in our own best interest, as I said, for ourselves and our families, those we care about. And if we don't feel we have other options, if we feel like we're trapped and we only get an inkling of this, this might be going on, isn't it going on? If I had an, if I had an option, if I don't have direct first hand knowledge, again, there's not going to be a lot of people that have very, very clear first hand knowledge. If anything was going on with the judge or anyone else, it's going to be a very, very small, tight circle. Now there's going to be leakage of other people that might think or might not think something was going on. What happens is, if you don't want to believe it, what do we do with our confirmation bias? We're going to look at and only take it in data. It's going to help us rationalize nothing was going on. So we can feel better about who we are. Because we don't want to be the type of person that allows abhorrent behavior to go on around us or even be associated with that as in a workplace, because that will destroy our own self image, it'll destroy our own being. And so that's how we as human beings will rationalize otherwise really, really important behavior. And then you cascade on top of it. Group. Well, if no one else is saying anything, it must be all right. And I like Billy Bob Joe, he's a great guy.
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A
Billy Bob Joe's great.
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C
I love Billy Bob Joe, you know.
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B
He'S a half step above Schmuckatelli, you know, but These people, you know, they will look to others to gauge what their behavior and reaction should be. And if you have someone you respect in your life, you have someone that has time, a lot more time in a position than you do, and you see what they're doing and their behaviors are. And then you try to understand them and say, well, this is a really good family person. They have a really good standing, they're really good in their church or good morals and ethics. And if they're not saying anything here, it must be okay. And so I'll just look the other way because maybe there's no other way to look. That's how we as human beings do this. Because if we did anything other than this, we'd be invalidating ourselves. We don't like doing that. It hurts us psychologically.
- [18:10]
C
You know, Tony, you and I have worked in places and I'm nothing like this went on. But you and I have worked in similar places where there were things going on and people kind of looked the other way and it was a family organization. You just, you kind of get into this mode where it's self preservation. I need this job. I need to continue with what I'm doing. This is my career. And. But yet at some point, you do break. I mean, Robin, you're 100% correct. At one point you just. The volcano just blows and it, you gotta go, you gotta get out, you gotta figure out something different because you can't tolerate it. But it's amazing how humans can just do the status quo because it's just easier. It's just easier.
- [18:51]
B
And so, Stacy, to your point, this is exactly what you need to do. Not you, but people need to do. If you're going to be an investigator, but going to be an interviewer is, is what we just did here is we just did a very deep dive on empathy. Because now that you understand those people, again, if there's anything going on, but it doesn't matter regardless, they're going to be interviewing all these people in that courthouse. They're going to be interviewing people that are surrounding these allegations. And if you're going to go in and interview someone, you can't go in an interview thinking in your head, oh, if you let this go on, you're really, really a horrible individual and a horrible human being. And I'm going to sit here and judge a living hell out of you for this. Do you think the likelihood of you making a connection and them sharing with you all that was going on is higher? Low? It's extremely low. So so you have to go in with an understanding of what would compel someone to not say something. Or we just went through it, and then you can empathize with it. Don't. It doesn't mean you agree that it was the right or wrong thing to do. Understand the decision process. We walked a mile in their shoes and said, hey, this was a really tough situation you're in. You know, what can we do together? Maybe to move the ball forward a little bit. To right some wrongs that others did, you know, together. So that's how we do these interviews. This is how we get to the truth. Is always thinking in terms of what can I do to inspire someone to share the truth with me before they have an opportunity to deceive. And that's how you do it. You dive deep to understand them. And so that you don't do the worst thing in the world is take a look at some shame and say, hey, look at your shame. Now tell me everything. It never works.
- [20:27]
C
It doesn't work. They put up their walls even harder. Oh, sure, they reinforce those walls to keep you from getting the information you're looking for.
- [20:35]
A
I want to talk about the confirmation bias that could exist. If the trial does take place there in Lecter County. I know they're talking about possibly moving it. And I think you can look at it from both ways in some perspectives. But I want to look at it this way because I don't think a lot of people are seeing it. One could look at and go, oh, well, if this is happening in their town, then they're gonna find him guilty no matter what. Just because I don't know. What I'm wondering about in a confirmation bias here is in this kind of small knit community, you don't necessarily wanna believe these sort of things are going on. And a lot of the victims that you have here have criminal records, substance abuse issues, CPS involvement. You know, they're not clean slates. And in no way does that mean that these people are lying or making things up. No, these are oftentimes the victims of these sort of things. So. But again, that's asking human beings to understand, you know, psychology and think more than one thought ahead. That being said, you're going to have a lot of witnesses here that are, as you know. Again, I'm not trying to. To denigrate these people at all. But if you're on the jury and you're seeing them come in, you're gonna. Some are gonna go, oh, they're kind of icky. They're Kinda, you know, I wouldn't do that. I'm not. I wouldn't. I don't have a record. I didn't have this problem. I didn't have that problem. And people will go for that sort of a bias. And I could see in some cases then discrediting them mentally, whether they deserve it or not, or just automatically doing that because, again, they don't want to believe this is going on in. And preserving that image in their mind, whether, you know, even though it is going on in their own town and there is evidence for it, I wonder how much that kind of an angle. And that could be an issue here if they do keep this trial in Lecter County.
- [22:33]
B
It's definitely something that the lawyers deal with. And again, I'm not a lawyer. Defense prosecutor. But one way you counter that is, at least as a behavior guide, this is the way I counter that is how do you. I mean, so let's think about it. How would you overcome a negative confirmation bias with someone who's saying that this person did abhorrent things. We knew the judge is doing this, you know, sexual favors for lighter sentences or whatever it was. And this person's got a really shady, creepy background. But see, if you're painting it in that picture of right now of shady, creepy background and you're trying to discredit. What I do is. What we do here all the time is, well, let's take a deeper look at this life arc. You know, we'll go with Sally Jane on this one. Sally Jane, tell me about what it was like growing up for you. So, so in other words, what they do is you. You humanize the individual. And then when you start humanizing that individual, the words they say mean a lot more than just some subjective, you know, thing that is just a title and label of older drug addict, their own alcoholic. Well, that's, that's in. That's dehumanizing someone. If you humanize them, the words coming out of their mouth tend to mean a lot more. Because again, the, the, the. The. The defense attorney or whatever is going to walk them in the. In their shoes so you can understand them. And then the other key thing is to demonstrate that this is not someone with an ax to grind. This is someone who's actually making amends in their lives. They're just merely laying out facts and details. And here's how you do it. You have to trust them in the way you trust people is again, they have to show transparency, openness, and vulnerability. Those behaviors inspire someone to believe you so when you can actually own your behavior. Yes, I was this person. Here's the things I did wrong in my life, here's what I've gone in my life. And they don't try to sell you on anything. They allow you to make the choice on how you think they are now. Because I've seen some of these people have actually reformed their lives pretty well. A lot of people, when they go through some trauma, they reformed their lives well. So. And if you have a lot of allegations or enough allegations that you're going to have a couple of these individuals that have actually been on this journey of. All right, I started out a beautiful human being, like we all do. I went through some real good trauma that really destroyed me. And I hit my bottom. When I hit the bottom, I was in the jail system, in the court system and all these things. And then all these horrendous things happened to me. But I crawled myself up out of here. And here's just the facts, ma'. Am. Boom. And then the jury makes a decision. So instead of just saying a drug addict, we now have an arc of a human being that they have a lot more credibility now. Because who hasn't hit their own bottom?
- [25:06]
A
Yeah.
- [25:07]
B
Who hasn't done these things? So that's what I would do.
- [25:09]
A
Asking me the job of the, the attorneys to really, to sell it to the jury. No matter. Do you think something like this though needs to be moved out of that county no matter what? Just because it's just too close to home, it's too tight knit, it's too small. I mean, you're talking about literally having the, the trial in the place where there's allegations of all this corruption going on.
- [25:31]
B
I, I mean my humble opinion would probably help it because, because of those things, because fear, you know, you want people to not be fearful and, and waiting for confirmation bias one way or the other. Which is why we have a jury, you know, jury hopefully are mitigating all these things when they're doing jury selection because you cannot avoid. And if, and if you're like us all, we all have confirmation bias, it's okay. But why we have loving critics in our lives, why we have juries of peers, it's why we have prosecution defenses. It's to help us overcome our human failties of the confirmation bias. And. But yeah, I think moving the venue would probably help, but again, I'm not the expert in that area.
- [26:11]
A
Yeah, I would, I don't know how you couldn't move. You don't even have to. I would feel like in a case like this, if there's ever a case that calls for it, where the corruption is literally in the building, that you're going to try and get the case amongst pieces of the infrastructure that would have been in place for allowing some of this stuff to happen. And let's say they've cleaned house. Let's say it's all fresh and so clean, clean, clean. But it's still, you know, the optics, all of that it needs, you know, they have to think about that.
- [26:40]
B
I mean, just think about this. Not making the attempt would also be pretty telling too, would it?
- [26:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:46]
C
You know, but these people run into all of these people at church and the grocery store and, and even if they did clean house, everybody knows somebody in this community. So even though it's a jury of their peers, I think there's still that. That pressure from the community that you want to protect the infrastructure that's been there for probably a century. Everybody knows everybody. You know, I just.
- [27:10]
B
And the level of personalization, like we said, you know, if you have a personal relationship with someone and, you know, and you're going to rationalize how you. Because it all is going to take is. Is probable doubt, you know, in one person. It's, it's. It's a true. I think it's a very tricky situation, but I definitely think it helps move it away from there as much as possible to get a jury pool with less knowledge of this. Again, everyone's gonna know about. In that whole area, but just less per. I guess a better way to put it, less personal connection to this.
- [27:41]
A
What do you make of this? Several interviewees describe being warned not to report the misconduct. This is an allegation that has been made. And of course. Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, don't. Because, you know, we'll ruin your. It wasn't just we'll ruin your reputation or no one will believe you. The allegation is that some were told they'd be found dead over a mountain. That's kind of a. That is. That's a harsh one. That's a harsh thing to say to somebody after. Well, anything for any reason, but especially after you violated them in a horrible way. You talk about this, you'll be found dead somewhere.
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C
Seems like the Mafia, doesn't it?
- [28:21]
B
A little bit.
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A
And I'm wondering, okay, just threats or have they ever carried that out retrospectively? Looking on this, that kind of makes me want to look at suspicious deaths in the area over the last handful of years. Like over the however long these people have been there, or even longer. Because look, so usually things like this just don't happen in a vacuum. It's not always just one person that decides to completely change the way that this ecosystem works. Usually in these judicial type systems when there's systematic corruption or generational corruption, it's just that it's generational, it keeps going. Well, the former ones did it this way too. Look at the new perks of the job you have, Mr. Judge. That's a perk. I mean, yeah. I mean, in some horrible, horrible way, if you have a very sick mind, some of these things people are like, oh wow, I can get away with this. It makes me wonder, would you have, are you suspicious at all about if in fact that threat was made about. I wonder if they ever did carry that out at some point in time, if there's some legitimacy to that threat.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah, it's definitely something. I think they need to investigate that as well. Because in order for a threat to be effective, it has to have teeth. And how do threats have teeth? Well, they have to have a past example of it being just that. When I saw that death threat as well, and, and even so, even because this goes to the sheriff starting to wear the vest around and him making the claims that he feared for himself and his wife, his daughter, that seemed very odd to me. I think that's why people were. We're looking at that whole psychotic break in paranoia maybe. Unless, unless he's. He found out something about those threats being actually very tangible, very real, because that's what gives things teeth and legs. And again, but that happens if it is systemic over time. And it's a, it's a known established fact that if that threat is made, it has the ability to be carried out upon. And I have this example. Whether the example is factual in your own mind or it's just urban legend, it still has the same power over you. So urban legend could play a part in it, but it definitely needs to be flushed out. All these things. I mean, just think about every time I see cases like this. I just think about every time we're saying here, this, this needs to be looked at, this person needs to be interviewed. I'm just thinking about the bandwidth of individuals that need to be interviewed, processed, assimilated, and who's doing that and what's their objectivity.
- [30:49]
C
They'd have to call in outside people to do all of this. Just, you know, I mean, haul somebody in, put up a trailer outside, and they, I can't talk literally live there for like a year or two to interview people. There's no way that somebody inside this community can be doing the interviews. There's just no way.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah, I, it's. There's just. Yeah, it's just such a mess in that community. I want to go there and just hang out for a week and have coffee at the local diner and get.
- [31:16]
B
A vibe, you know, I think it's. And that's why I love you cited Brian Entn at the very beginning. You know, he does a really good job of getting the vibe on the ground because walking the ground, you know, as I used to say, touch it, taste it, feel it, because when you get the energy there and you actually do the interaction, it gives a lot of content context to the data we see from, you know, from 30, 000 miles. 30, 000 miles. That's a long way. You know, from 3, 000 miles away to that. But it's, that's why it's really, really important to walk the ground interaction to feel, you know, the, the, the. Just the tenor and tempo of the people around you. It goes a long way.
- [31:53]
A
Yeah, there's some very interesting interviews that he's done with some of the folks there. His channel is Brianton Investigates, if you want to check them out in their entirety. Let us know your thoughts in the comments to hear that. Let's move on now to the David story, the Celeste story, whatever you want to call it story. A teenage girl's dead in the front trunk of a Tesla the Frunk. And that vehicle registered to rising music star David. You see him listed as D4VD. No one reports her missing, though the car sits in plain view for weeks. And when her body is finally discovered, there's silence. No public statement, no arrest, no answers. As of right now, we're gonna be joined again. Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agent, former Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program to continue discussing this story. I know people are going, wait a second, she was reported missing. But let's go back to that for a second. She was a year earlier, and then she was back at home again. So it's appearing at this point in time that she came back. She was on her security camera at her family home. So somebody knew she was back. That just appears to be a factual piece of the story. Now, at this point, there wasn't necessarily a second report of being missing. So I'm wondering, was she ever missing? And let's talk about that for a little bit. The. When someone goes missing, we have this every single day. Only certain ones seem to get the attention or qualify for the Amber Alert or qualify for whatever alert they're gonna put out there. Let's talk about that in our system of what we have going on here, of people when they go missing. And is it effective in any way, shape or form for helping. Helping people be found when they are going missing, Especially in a situation like this.
- [33:51]
B
Boy missing. What's the other term for it? That there's. You can claim someone's missing or they've been. There's two things. There was one that triggers an emergency, an immediate response. The other actually has to take time.
- [34:04]
A
There's different qualifiers.
- [34:06]
B
And so, yeah, just claiming someone's missing, it doesn't really trigger much at all, obviously. So because again, you. You get these confirmation. Again, we just talking about confirmation biases. So the people in someone's life, including the person themselves, that if they're aspiring to do X, Y and Z, they want to do these great things. So you're going to rationalize the behavior way that, hey, they're not really missing, they're just interacting with so and so they're making. They're making some. They're doing some networking over here. They're doing all these things. And so I think that muddles the entire reporting as well, as well as just being surrounded by unhealthy people doing stupid things. But yeah, missing people never, ever gets the attention it needs, especially when young and teenage. See, this is how people get trafficked.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah. Or not. Or not. White and blonde.
- [34:55]
B
That.
- [34:56]
A
That too. That doesn't seem to get the traction there either.
- [34:59]
B
No. And people get trafficked into these systems because of these. This problem with reporting and being able to lock people onto them right away and try to track them down. So.
- [35:10]
A
And it's just. Yeah, it's a weird thing that we don't seem to have a very. I don't know when it happens, the passion isn't there. The passion's there once, like they're dead. Or it gets like, oh, maybe this could be something really horrible. It's a weird thing in society that we don't have the urgency to do it when we could actually make a difference and find the person alive versus when they're not. But again, society would need to know about the person being missing as well. And if the family is not passionate, paying enough attention to their own human being, it's hard for anyone to really know if those red flags aren't being raised. And unfortunately, that's usually the starting point. The People who are supposed to care aren't caring.
- [35:55]
B
And look at this confirmation bias, too. So if you know that your person that is missing has a relationship with a celebrity, pseudo celebrity or something like that, what's their confirmation bias? Oh, they're just hanging out with them and they're being well taken care of, and so are they really missing. So I think that whole, you know, attention aspect of it and just think about them and do our thought experiment. So say we know our next door neighbor's daughter happens to be friends with. We've heard rumor, not necessarily confirmed. We heard rumor they're actually friends with some high. You know, say there's friends with Taylor Swift, and all of a sudden they go missing. Or you haven't seen them around for a couple weeks, but you heard other. They're friends with Taylor Swift. Oh, they're probably with Taylor Swift then. And, you know, she's so secretive. She doesn't really tell who her posse is at the time. So they're probably just. See how that rationalization goes.
- [36:48]
A
Yeah.
- [36:49]
B
As opposed to they're missing. We haven't seen them in two weeks. Holy f. We got to do something now. True. How that kind of plays into who their associates are and who they are, it messes with you messing with law enforcement, too, because then law enforcement will start rationalizing it away also. Yeah.
- [37:06]
A
And when you have. And you do have a lot that do come back. And that's the other part of this is when do you know if it. What level of seriousness do you take it at? In some cases, there's been some scuttlebutt. Cause I like to use terms of different eras over the weekend about David and about him. And as of right now, and I think this is important to state and contextually to state, not named as a murder suspect in Celeste Riviera's Hernandez case. Now not named as a suspect. That doesn't really mean much as of right now. There's a difference here. There's a big difference between being cleared and not being named as a suspect. No one has been cleared yet, and no one has been named a suspect. Obviously, there's gotta be a suspect at some point in time, you would think. And, you know, people do get cleared at some point, but he's neither been cleared. He's not been named a suspect, but neither has anyone else. Let's talk about that a little bit. And just the state as to where this is sitting. As of this recording, no charges, no clearance, no nothing. The fact that he hasn't been cleared as of right now, but not named a suspect. Does it mean anything now that we're however many weeks into this?
- [38:36]
B
Maybe, you know, you want to. So my mind immediately goes to. All right, so I always start with the baseline of everyone's doing the job the way they should be doing the job. And if they haven't been naming him yet, because they don't have either need to name him yet, or they're probably trying to run down all the associates and all the other people that are probably possibly connected to him, the event and the things that have happened. And they don't want anyone to go, go, you know, go silent, go dark, go and go missing as they're doing the investigation. Because as soon as you name one person, then everyone else might flee, everyone else might run, they might go dark. Or so you don't know what the effect has. And so it's. I'm. I'm going to assume that the glass is half full. And it's a very strategic move and a very purposeful move is why he hasn't been named yet, but definitely not written off. I. The fact they haven't written anyone off says that they got a lot of data coming in. I mean, how could you not. I mean, she was in his car. And I don't. And remember, I'm always looking at the age of people. First of all, we have never covered anyone who's smart. And I don't care. And I know we get. Right. And we get dinged on this sometimes, too, because people will keep referring to someone's degrees, they'll talk about their IQs, but. But I don't give a rat's ass about any of that because all these people lack complete emotional intelligence. Zero on the emotional intelligence side, which is the true measure of a human being and how we interact with society around us. You cascade low EQ emotional intelligence with the fact that you're 20 years old and younger. It says you're a complete moron when doing stupid things. And so putting those two things together, there's going to be a lot of leakage. I think there's a lot of data coming in and leads coming in from the surrounding posse of this individual that they're trying to run down. And they might just have limited bandwidth of the number of people that can do that, because we know that they. They're conducting searches. There is no doubt that they're conducting searches. They're doing a lot of analysis of that. That might be another thing that might be waiting on to DNA. You know, if you don't have, you know, Cash Patel flying across the country to run your DNA for you, you know, back in the, in the FBI jet. It might take a bit of time, you know, so.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah, true. And he's got to get his boots on and everything, too. He has to let.
- [40:57]
B
Just look at the reality and logistics of the notoriety of a case, you know. You know, these poor guys, you know, are doing the best they can, you know. You know, Cash Patel goes across country, Bongino, to get the. The assassin of Charlie Kirk's DNA, you know, personalized back to the FBI lab. These guys might be waiting in the queue for another three months.
- [41:16]
A
Isn't it great that they're personally doing it, though? Doesn't it make you feel much more safe?
- [41:19]
C
I feel very secure. Yep.
- [41:21]
B
It's literally, as I say, you just sit back and watch a show, man.
- [41:26]
A
Let them.
- [41:27]
C
There's not enough popcorn, honey.
- [41:29]
B
Let them, you know, and so I, I, Because I always have such a pragmatic view of having been in executive management of the FBI as well as a street agent for so long, I really know how these organizations work for the good sometimes and for the not so good and slow sometimes. And so a very pragmatic Robin says the slowness of this could literally be they have DNA. They're waiting for a DNI DNA positive hit linking people together. They're doing the same thing. Cell phone data analysis also takes them roughly around the same amount of time. And so if you don't have, you know, the head of an organization running across country for you getting the necessary things or your cues so backed up because the Cash Mattels dropped in everyone else's. Everyone else's cases in front of you, it could back you up. I have literally have no idea. Now. I'm just saying the reality of the amount of time it takes for these super investigative things that we're used to seeing on criminal minds happen like this. We have the capabilities to do the investigations, but the time lapse between getting it, analyzing it, and coming to conclusions can be decades apart sometimes, unfortunately. So that might be playing into here.
- [42:42]
A
It's just like, you look at this case and you go, come on. I mean, couldn't we have something by now? But. So I know we're saying not smart human beings, but if these people manage to evade being caught on camera and nobody's arrested yet, I mean, I guess it's got to do. Unless it's just pure dumb luck or they're waiting and they got their eyes on them going, well, they're not Going anywhere. Like, we know where they're at, and they're waiting, you know, if they were to flee, they're ready to, you know, to stop them.
- [43:11]
B
So. So let's. I'm so sorry. Let's look at this. You know, you say, dumb luck. When was the last time we've covered any single case? And we said, oh, they were really smart.
- [43:21]
A
No, again, no. And that's the thing where I'm like, it's been this long. You got the. The most advanced vehicle in the world that has the body in it. You're in a very populated area. There's cameras everywhere. Where, how many weeks in. How the hell do we not have the person arrested who was driving the car and parked it there?
- [43:42]
B
So now we could actually have the case of. So, yeah, these people are stupid. The criminals and the murderers. At the same time, though, you know, you don't know what you're dealing with. On the law enforcement side, we've seen all over the spectrum. We got guys that can catch people in 37 hours, and we got people that are going to take 37 years.
- [43:59]
A
I mean, and I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just like, what the hell is going on? Like, why? I mean, and there might be a good reason for it. At the very beginning of the Coburger investigation, too, we were very critical about it, and rightfully so. In some ways, I think the PR management wasn't the wisest for that community in crisis at that moment in time.
- [44:19]
C
Look at Gilgo, too. I mean, why.
- [44:22]
A
Well, that's a whole other different level of corruption over there. That's like a different animal. That's like a different zoo. It's not even the same remote thing. But this is something where maybe there is a reason. Maybe there is. They really want to make sure they have the case as solid as they can before they go in and make.
- [44:42]
B
And also, you know, we don't know the reps. They have, you know, the local law enforcement, because that comes into, too. We saw it in the Co Burger case. You know, if you have a smaller police department that the last murder they did before Coburg, I think, was 14 years before that murder, that homicide. And they had a. Is a quadruple, and they'd only done a single.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah.
- [45:00]
B
So I don't know the resources of this investigation we're talking about.
- [45:05]
A
You know, this is Beverly. I don't know the house was what, in Beverly Hill? I don't know what the. It's. It's lapd. That's on It.
- [45:12]
B
So they got some reps here.
- [45:15]
A
You know, they have resources that are beyond, you know, reproach of most departments. So that's, again, I just, I don't know.
- [45:25]
B
So LAPD's got. I know, I know. I know a few people, like the top psychiatrist, psychologists. I mean, the criminal psychologists in there know him. He's, He's a really good guy. So, yeah, lapd. So here's. So now again, I'm sorry that my brain was fogging on who is actually doing it. So now that you weigh that data point in there, I'm, I'm thinking it's. Now, granted, I'm still going to go on the time to get these returns on all the investigative stuff because of not having people flying across the country for you. But that being said, that they do have their own crime lab. They do have their own resources. I mean, LAP is like nypd. They got a lot of. So silent to this point. I think it's calculated.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah. And people, I think, are chomping at the bit because everybody likes to bring up people and then tear them down. And I think there's a lot that people are, for whatever reason, you know, they're going, well, it must be, Must be. David, I don't know about that. I really, I have serious reservations thinking that this guy killed this person. And I have serious reservations about a lot of the accusations that are flying around online, too, about the relationship there. I, I, I don't know that it was a romantic relationship. I'd love to see some actual evidence that shows that it was. I don't think we've seen it. We've seen what, to me, looks like a, a male friend with a female friend. One is certainly younger, but if there is nothing sexual going on there, 15 and 20 is not that huge of a difference. You can be friends. You don't. Yeah.
- [47:03]
B
That is so perfect. I mean, I mean, you are saying everything exactly right. Let's go where the Levitans brings us. Right now, we don't have data that supports one thing. The other ends. And as dumb as we say the people are, it would be super dumb to dump a body in the trunk of your own car and abandon it. I mean, just. But again, dumb things happen.
- [47:24]
A
But dumb things happen.
- [47:26]
B
But that's what you do. I mean, really good job. Hey, here's what.
- [47:28]
A
He was on tour though, too, so, I mean, like, physically, he couldn't have even really done it from, you know. But it's not to say he couldn't have a hand in it. I Don't know. But that's what we don't know. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- [47:40]
B
But, hey, so now we can do our little thought experiment here, too. So since we don't have data supports that, it seems just to make sense it would. And it's LAPD handling it, and they got a lot of reps in doing this. Granted, they don't have the analysis back necessarily yet of doing the DNA tests and doing a cell phone triangulation. Especially in Beverly Hills when you got a lot of cell phones all over the place and potentially a lot of DNA. Especially if this is a social guy, there's gonna be a lot of DNA in that car to analyze, possibly. And so putting all those things together and a lack of data, there just might not be, you know, charges coming because. Yeah, what's it yet? And then they're. Maybe there's no charges against David yet because they're trying to figure out who that DNA does tie to, because maybe it doesn't tie to him. Him.
- [48:24]
A
Yeah. Who has act. I mean, he. If he's cooperating with police. And we have no reason to believe that he's not as of right now, from what we've understood, he is, you know, who has access to your car 100%.
- [48:35]
C
Right.
- [48:36]
A
And I think that would be. That's gonna give you a lot of answers right there. And I'm guessing they're trying to go down those roads. I mean, and could it. Again, we're just kind of in speculation land here, too, you know, could it be that maybe somebody who had access to his car is not exactly findable at this moment in time, and nobody knows where that person is. And that's why they're not really, you know, full throttle here saying, here's who we're going after to further prevent them from going deeper into wherever they're at if. If they're already not in the unknown.
- [49:07]
B
Yeah. And so especially with no charges coming against David yet, the. The probability of. Again, they haven't written him off yet, but the probability that they're running everything down is really, really high. And especially if you're dealing with a couple of individuals that have a very big social networking footprint, there's a lot of people to run down. There's a lot of leads to run down. In other words, there's a lot of people. Because the first thing you're doing when you're investigating a homicide is. Is who is connected to the individual, because 95. I think it's 95 of the people that are murdered. They have. There's some sort of connection between the murderer and the victim. And so if you have, you know, the victim, the girl who's got so many of these social media connections, you're gonna have to run them all down. And especially if you can't link it solidly to one individual yet, you got to run all those down. And even if you can. So think about this. Even if you can link it to a certain degree with one individual, when it goes to court, you have to be able to say how you outruled everyone else.
- [50:05]
A
So it's a lot, it is a lot when you're trying to figure out who all this is. I mean, the fact that these people are so, you know, David has said his world, his people, I believe is the way that he phrased it, are online. He's of the online world. He was a gamer, he was a this, he was a that, and that's the ecosystem to which he operates and lives. That would tell me if there is anything, if he has anything to do with her disappearance or her murder or death or accident, whatever the hell it was. We don't even know if it was technically a homicide side yet. I would imagine that it'd be very hard. It'd be very. Would you be surprised if there's not anything in the digital sphere of a footprint on this guy if he has anything to do with it?
- [50:59]
B
Nothing surprises me anymore. I think the thing that's really thank God that the only thing we have is the vehicle. Because I mean, think about this. If she had been found by a tree in the woods or even buy on a street corner in a neighborhood, that'd be much harder because. Because now at least we can rule it into someone had to have access to that vehicle. And so, but yeah, the volume of people and connections that they're running down at this point, even if you can. As I was just thinking, as you were speaking, I was even thinking about this. You know, I'm on, I'm on discord for a couple of the online gaming things I do in, in the VR world. I play this stupid VR game with, with people all over and no one has any idea who anyone is yet. I have very close relationships, you know, with people online where you can have great people. And I was just thinking about this in this context.
- [51:45]
A
Yeah.
- [51:46]
B
Of, you know, there's a lot of people that are going to have close relationships that cops are trying to run down. Who is this? Yeah, all they got is an anonymous name through some meta account and they're trying to figure out who the hell that is, because there's a close relationship here and they don't know who it is. Is it this person? This person? So it's a world of challenges. There is no doubt people know who.
- [52:09]
C
You are in these chats. Do they know? I mean, so I'm assuming you're just like some player in there.
- [52:16]
B
Yep. They have no clue. And they listen to my voice and they have no idea I'm 57 years old.
- [52:22]
A
I don't want to. I was going to say we should do a game. Let's guess Robin's username now. Go with some very, very creative ideas onto what that could be.
- [52:33]
B
I've given hints a few times, but no one's ever guessed what I do.
- [52:38]
A
Give us some insight, though, into that world, into that community, because we've obviously, you know, we're. He's very much into this world that David is. We. We've, of course, the. The Charlie Kirk shooter we've seen there. There's another case I'm beginning to follow here of the teenager that ran over the two girls over the last week that he was stalking online. And he didn't like him because they were saying negative things about Charlie Kirk. So he thought, well, let's go run them over. Which he did. Um, but again, then bragged about it on an online forum of some sort for a video game he's playing. Give us some insight for those of us who are not in that world as to what that world is like. Are these extreme outliers when you have people like that that are doing things like that, or is there just questionable shit everywhere and you just don't know who's being serious or not?
- [53:37]
B
I can only give my optic.
- [53:39]
A
Yeah, give me your. Yeah.
- [53:40]
B
And I. And my son's on them all the time, too. I have two adult kids in that age group. You know, they're in their late 20s. I don't see anything toxic in the stuff I do. I mean, you hear toxic kids saying toxic things from Science Time, but never violent things. They'll just say inappropriate things is a better way to put it. And then.
- [53:58]
A
Sure.
- [53:58]
B
And. And to the credit towards the companies that the games that I play, they get voice banned. They'll be like, I logged on last night and there's this guy I play this one game with. He's actually. He's in his 30s. He's a roofer, Kentucky. I have no idea who he is. I know that much about him because that's much he shared. Yeah, he came on last Night. And he was already voice banned because he, he says this one thing online. It's not even a bad word or anything, but the, the algorithm thinks he's saying something else. And they voice band for like 30 minutes. And it's hilarious. He's doing these hand signals in the game, trying to articulate. Yeah, but no, I. So there's. And my son was telling me this because we talked about this a lot after Charlie Kirk shooting. And, you know, this online culture that they have, you can find toxicity anywhere you look for it. But by and large, you know, a lot of these companies are. I'll give the glass half full. A lot of these companies and gaming companies are doing a very good job of creating these filters and algorithms to keep that toxicity out because they don't want to have their company go out of business. You know, they make money by selling things that are positive that parents will allow their kids to buy that, that the government's not going to shut down or. And so, by and large, I do do a good job. But what happens is you have the gaming world and then you have the communication world that goes around the gaming world. And so I, I play both my computer game, my, my, my Echo, my Xbox downstairs S. And I also play on my VR headset. You know, I got an Oculus.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah.
- [55:25]
B
You know, and then with all those games, you have a Discord channel that will go along with that game. And so it's. So it's not the gaming systems themselves that are necessarily the ones that are bad. It's. It's the, it's the chat world that'll go around that'll start surrounding. So your, Your little. You'll have a group of people that can be completely anonymous that decide in the game, hey, here's an invite to my Discord channel. And so they give an invite to the person online, and then they go to that little. That's little. That little cult of people. And I'll say the culture as a collective, not as a bad thing, just a cult of people completely anonymous that starts out talking about this game. Now, if you have one individual or a couple individuals in there that starts spreading some toxicity about other things going on, society or anything else, well, then that can start festering, and that's where that starts. So it can start here, can start there, and that's why it's so hard to track it. All of it completely anonymous, unless you decide to disclose who you are.
- [56:23]
A
Is this stuff like kind of coming off of the dark web now and getting into more mainstream Platforms like Discord, like Reddits and things of that nature, where it used to be, you had to dig a little bit deeper to find a community where it gets pretty dark. You'd have other. Is it being harbored out in shallower waters than it used to be. And people are getting access to it in ways that. And falling into these, especially young men, being able to find and fall into these things in much easier ways than they would have in the past. Where in the past you would have had to been kind of like in a hackerish community or really know what the hell you were doing to go that deep on the web. Now, you know you're on a discord from a game you were playing and things can get pretty dark. Is it getting the shallow, getting too close to home? And do these companies like Discord and such that provide the platforms, do they need to be more responsible with what they're allowing to have conversation of on their platform?
- [57:26]
B
But the language used there is really good and accurate. Shallower waters, I think is a very accurate way to put. I haven't heard anyone or. Because I used to work, I used to be a board member on a group called Innocent Lives foundation, which we tracked and identified online predators and handed it over to law enforcement for investigation. And that. That took a lot of dark web work work. And if you're going to traffic in horrendous things that are already, you know, like Steven Sterns and the Maddie Soto case, that is dark web kind of stuff when you're dealing with.
- [57:57]
A
But when you're talking about just ideology doesn't have to.
- [58:01]
B
No, it doesn't. It gets very shallow. And the challenge with it, it's not even just a challenge of the companies and tracking it because you, the three of us and four, you know, with Todd, the way we communicate as a generation is very. It's much more transparent. But what happens is, is that these people will start talking in code. Code becomes jargon and lingo that an algorithm is not going to pick up on until it picks up on. Then they already moved on from it. And so, boy, it's a challenge. And so you're not. So my. This kind of goes back to some of the things we were talking about because of the Charlie Kirk assassination was I don't think you're going to be able to keep chasing people around social networking sites and find the bad actors. I'm not saying you're not going to. You'll be able to identify some that way, but you're in chasing mode. Mode. You'll never catch up to sprinters. If you're in chasing mode, the way to do it is really start looking earlier than that at the behaviors outside this world. Because if they're doing it inside the virtual world, there's tons of leakage on the outside. It's a self isolation. It's the dark thoughts, it's the vernacular they start using. So I constantly encourage parents to do this all the time. Keep a journal, keep a log and date it. So when you make observations, you know, just journaling about what you, your family and your kids are doing on a daily basis or even just make a weekly basis, just make notes on what you know. Let's get a couple of more fun names. But what your kids, you know, Jane and Bob are doing on a weekly basis and when you start tracking that over time, then you'll start seeing a pattern. Is the pattern staying healthy and normal or are we starting, start going down into self isolation? Because if we start seeing a fall off, he's like, here's an easy thing to do. Name your kids friends. And if you don't have the ability to name who your kids friends are, these are conversations have. But then as you just do a weekly check in with your kids, like my kids and I, we, our family does is we do a weekly FaceTime call, all four of us. My kids are grown week and we're just checking in. Here's what's going on. Here's what's going on in each other's lives. We talk about people in people's lives. Now we have a baseline. And so if we baseline what our kids and our interactions are going and the socializing they're doing, if we start seeing deviations because we're taking note of it, that's the change. And you don't have to start chasing it down online because you're never going to catch them.
- [60:27]
C
Well, and think about how isolated we are now. A lot of, I mean, I'll hold up my phone here. There are people in my phone that other people don't know about because they don't see them in real life. This is how we communicate. They're in other states. So the people who are in my actual real world don't know that these other people exist. My phone is locked. People don't have access to it. So there is this entire web that if those people are toxic, the people in my real life have no idea that they exist.
- [60:57]
B
But we're going to know from your behavior.
- [60:59]
C
Correct?
- [61:00]
B
You know, and so when I start seeing a change In Stacy, I'm going to say Stacy, I mean this is what I say to myself, you know, I say what's going on? What great challenge are you facing this week? Just what's going on.
- [61:13]
C
And if we don't have that check in with people like what you do with your family, we are absolutely lost in this world. So we've really stopped that communication with people around us. We don't do those check ins. And what you just shared is so valuable.
- [61:28]
B
Everybody, I know everyone's probably laughing that Robin does these gaming things. You know why I do gaming but you know why my kids do. And in order for me to, and, and we talk about under anything that I face as a behavior guy in the real world when we, we do these shows, I dive in, you know, just so I can understand that world a bit better. So I have that con, you know, like we're talking about Brian Endon, he goes on scene. Well if we're going to talk about the virtual world and gaming and discord and everything, I, I have an account, I do these things. Yeah, I could get at least a bit of a taste, taste in the flavor. I asked my kids about it because they're the source material for me about hey, you know you're doing this every day. What are you seeing? What are you hearing? What's, what's the reality from what we're seeing being propagated on the news cycles that are selling ad space compared to reality of just, you know, what is really going on?
- [62:19]
C
Well, it's curiosity.
- [62:20]
B
It is just deep, deep active curiosity. And then you know, I've enjoyed, I've actually enjoyed these games. Gets really annoying though. These kids get really good at these games. So my favorite line ever that I use when I get angry and I don't get angry because I say let them is would you go out and smell some grass?
- [62:43]
C
Wait, what kind of grass are we talking about here?
- [62:46]
A
Dad just installed Astroturf in the front yard.
- [62:49]
B
Yeah, green grass, man. And the other thing I'll do with some kids is take a breath because some of these kids just will not shut up.
- [62:57]
A
Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean it's good.
- [63:00]
B
I'm sorry, I'm digressing.
- [63:01]
C
No, no, no, our, our chat section here on YouTube. They freaking love you, Robin. So stop apologizing for going off because everybody here just loves your commentary. So please don't ever apologize.
- [63:16]
B
Doing real things.
- [63:17]
C
Exactly. And they love it.
- [63:19]
A
And you can get his book right now, Unbreakable Alliances. It's his latest wherever books are sold.
- [63:23]
B
So There you go.
- [63:25]
A
And audiobook wherever. So yeah, so if you want to go get more Robin after the show, there's other books too. I do highly recommend all of them.
- [63:33]
C
Yeah, me too.
- [63:33]
A
Robin Drake, retired FBI, Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. As always, thank you for coming on and giving us your insight into the lovely world that we currently do.
- [63:45]
B
Everything. You'll never know where it goes. Thanks.
- [63:47]
C
We love that.
- [63:49]
A
And let us know your thoughts in the comments section as well.
- [63:52]
B
Want more on this case and others?
- [63:55]
A
Then press subscribe now. And don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brewski and the Hidden Killers Podcast.
- [64:03]
B
Try a free sample of berry pie. Oh yeah, I do.
- [64:07]
C
Wait, will this send me spiraling out of my routine? Time to consult the online experts. One bite will destroy your metabolism. Drink butter coffee instead to kill cravings. What?
- [64:18]
B
Is it really that bad?
- [64:20]
C
I had protein this morning, right? Ugh.
- [64:23]
B
But it looks looks so good.
- [64:25]
C
Only eat after walking 10,000 steps. Pie is only two steps from here. Am I overthinking again?
- [64:32]
B
Fruit ruins.
- [64:34]
C
Never eat after 7pm One cheat day Cut carbs fast for 48 hours.
- [64:41]
B
Stop it.
- [64:42]
C
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