The Dr. Hyman Show – "Land, Power, and the Plate: Ending Food Apartheid with Regenerative Justice"

Date: October 13, 2025
Host: Dr. Mark Hyman
Guests: Dr. Rupa Marya, Dr. Raj Patel, Dr. Susan Blum, Ms. Karen Washington

Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful episode, Dr. Mark Hyman leads a wide-ranging discussion on the intersections of food, health, power, race, land, and economic justice. The episode explores the concept of "food apartheid," systemic racism and inequality in food systems, the health impacts on marginalized communities, and the urgent need for regenerative and decolonized approaches to agriculture and public health. With powerful contributions from Dr. Rupa Marya, Dr. Raj Patel, Dr. Susan Blum, and food justice advocate Karen Washington, the episode outlines both the history and ongoing impact of food and land policies—and what real solutions can look like.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. From "Food Desert" to Food Apartheid (01:37 – 05:50)

• Redefining the Problem:

  • Dr. Hyman introduces the term "food apartheid" as a more accurate descriptor than "food desert," emphasizing intentional, systemic deprivation rather than “natural” scarcity.
  • Dr. Rupa Marya: "A food desert implies a natural ecosystem...but there's nothing natural about a system where certain people have access to food opulence and others food scares." (02:16)
  • Food apartheid is rooted in historical practices such as redlining and housing discrimination, creating racialized and economic barriers to healthy food.

• Health Disparities and Systemic Racism:

  • Chronic illnesses disproportionately impact marginalized communities due to lack of access, not lack of knowledge or motivation.
  • "If you have $3 in your pocket...you can get some hot Cheetos and blue colored drink, but you cannot get a burrito, a salad or anything like that." (Dr. Rupa Marya, 03:43)

2. Food as a Weapon and Structural Barriers (05:50 – 09:03)

• Food Policies as Tools of Control:

  • Food blockades have historically punished communities pushing for civil rights.
  • The modern food system and targeted processed food marketing perpetuate poor health, especially through programs like SNAP.
  • Environmental racism: Farmworkers (largely Black and brown) are exposed to pesticides and excluded from labor protections.

• Extractive Agriculture and Colonization:

  • Dr. Marya discusses the imposition of European norms on indigenous and Black foodways — monoculture, pesticide use, and land degradation.
  • The story of maize ("corn") illustrates how traditional indigenous, regenerative intercropping was replaced by extractive monoculture.

3. The Role of Soul Fire Farm and Community Solutions (11:10 – 14:38)

• Soul Fire Farm: A Case Study in Regenerative Justice:

  • Founded to address racism in the food system via:
    1. Regenerating land and distributing food to those in need.
    2. Training and mentoring Black and brown farmers.
    3. Policy advocacy and mobilization for reparations and land justice.
  • "We're dedicated to ending racism in the food system." (Dr. Marya, 12:10)
  • There’s a growing interest among Black and brown communities in returning to farming, countering the historical stigma associated with land work as a legacy of slavery.

• The Legacy of Broken Promises and Land Theft:

  • The unfulfilled "40 acres and a mule" promise is emblematic of systemic exclusion and theft.
  • Black farmers' numbers have dramatically declined due to violence, government policy, and discrimination.
  • The Pigford case (1999): $2 billion civil rights settlement for Black farmers—“a symbolic victory,” as the reparation came too late (Dr. Marya, 13:55).

4. Urban & Rural Food Justice: Overcoming Barriers (16:12 – 22:19)

• Community Models and Urban Farming:

  • Examples from Atlanta, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit show that when healthy food is accessible, communities embrace it.
  • Black churches are significant landholders and can drive food justice by establishing gardens and sourcing food from Black rural farmers.

• Barriers to Land and USDA Discrimination:

  • USDA resources disproportionately go to large, white-owned farms.
  • The need for land reform: "98% of the rural land is owned by white people right now." (Dr. Marya, 21:10)
  • "We really need to look at a patchwork of land trust and land link and land transfer..." (Dr. Marya, 21:13)
  • Reparations and new models of land ownership are necessary.

5. Regeneration—Health for People and Planet (21:15 – 24:09)

• Regenerative Agriculture’s Wide Ripple Effects:

  • Doing right by the land means doing right by human health, climate, biodiversity, water, and justice—“It seems too good to be true, but is that how you see it?” (Dr. Hyman, 21:15)
  • Reverence for the land is critical; stories from Ghana and indigenous elders described, highlighting the importance of treating earth as kin, not commodity.

• Historical Roots of Regeneration:

  • Dr. Marya credits Dr. George Washington Carver for advancing regenerative agriculture before it became mainstream.
  • His methods (compost, legume rotation) were rooted in African and Indigenous knowledge.

6. More than Food Security: Demanding Nutrition Security (24:09 – 25:45)

• From Empty Calories to Real Nourishment:

  • The difference between food security (enough calories) and nutrition security (enough health-promoting food).
  • Processed foods drive inflammation and cycles of social and health injustice.

• Anatomy of Injustice:

  • Dr. Patel explains how their book uses the anatomy metaphor to dissect injustice, showing how economic and social frameworks have created present health inequities.

7. Debt, Stress, and the Biology of Structural Violence (29:48 – 34:05)

• Capitalism, Stress, and Health:

  • Dr. Patel connects the dots between financial exploitation (e.g. payday loans), chronic stress, and direct health outcomes like suicides and overdoses.
  • "Unless medicine opens its eyes to...a good medical intervention here would be to ban payday loans, then we are...stopping short of how it is that we might heal one another." (Dr. Patel, 32:39)

• Limits of Modern Medicine:

  • Medicine can name health disparities but struggles to dismantle their root causes.
  • The medical model remains stuck in a colonial, one-on-one symptom-fixing mode.

8. Colonialism, Capitalism, and Food Monopolies (35:42 – 38:15)

• Unpacking the System:
  • Colonialism is power-and-land-grab; capitalism’s tendency is monopoly.
  • Food system monopolies—just a handful of companies control most of what Americans eat.
  • True free markets don’t exist; externalities (social, environmental, health) are offloaded onto the public and marginalized communities.

9. Deep Medicine and Decolonization (39:32 – 45:18)

• A New Framework:

  • Medicine and food systems must shift from anthropocentric, dominion-based thinking (humans above all) to a relational, kinship-oriented model (“deep medicine”).
  • Health is relational: "Health cannot be pursued on an individual level. Health can only be attained in proper relationship to each other and the entire web of life." (Dr. Susan Blum, 45:16)

• Rejecting Dichotomies:

  • Avoid pitting failed capitalism against failed communism; solutions are imaginative, hybrid, and relationship-based.

10. Community Voices: Ms. Karen Washington (46:08 – 64:59)

• On the Ground in the Bronx—Lived Experience of Food Apartheid:

  • Ms. Washington describes seeing a dramatic health shift in her community—elders who were healthy farmers now suffering from chronic diseases.
  • Food options in low-income, Black/brown neighborhoods are overwhelmingly unhealthy and cheap; healthy food is hard to find and expensive.
  • "If you gave people healthy food options, they would take it. But there's no healthy food options." (Ms. Washington, 50:33)

• Tackling Structural Problems:

  • Simply telling people to "eat healthy" without addressing systemic barriers is misguided.
  • Her initiatives—like farmers markets in the Bronx—prove the demand for healthy food is strong if barriers are removed.

• Food Apartheid vs. Food Deserts:

  • The term “food desert” hides the intentional, structural, and racial aspects of food system inequality.

• Restoring Land Relationships:

  • Youth are the key to changing the narrative; many are now reclaiming farming and land stewardship as sources of pride, identity, and health.
  • "[Farming] is in our DNA, this is our blood. We are people of land and food...Once you plant that seed...a light bulb goes off." (Ms. Washington, 62:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Rupa Marya:
  • "Food apartheid is the right term...there’s nothing natural about a system where certain people have access to food opulence and others food scares." (02:16)
  • "You treat the Earth like a commodity and not like a family member...that's why you're all sick." (21:42)
  • "98% of the rural land is owned by white people right now." (21:10)
• Dr. Mark Hyman:
  • “If you have $3 in your pocket and you live in a food apartheid zip code…you cannot get a burrito, a salad, or anything like that.” (03:43)
  • "Doing the right thing for the land, you do the right thing for humans, you do the right thing for climate, you do the right thing for biodiversity…" (21:15)
• Ms. Karen Washington:
  • “If you gave people healthy food options, they would take it. But there’s no healthy food options.” (50:33)
  • “The dialogue has shifted and the concentration has been on our youth…once you plant that seed in their head…a light bulb goes off.” (62:50)
• Dr. Susan Blum:
  • “Deep medicine is understanding that health cannot be pursued on an individual level. Health can only be attained in proper relationship to each other and the entire web of life.” (45:16)
• Dr. Raj Patel:
  • “The way that capitalism has worked in the food system has not been to generate competition and true costs…but exactly the opposite.” (35:50)
  • "Unless medicine opens its eyes to...a good medical intervention here would be to ban payday loans, then we are...stopping short of how we might heal one another." (32:39)

Key Timestamps

• 01:37 – The reality and personal experience of food apartheid
• 02:16 – Why "food apartheid" not "food desert" (Dr. Marya)
• 05:50 – Food as a weapon and historical context
• 10:41 – Colonization of the food system: Maize and monocultures
• 12:10 – Soul Fire Farm’s mission and methodology
• 13:51 – The historical theft of Black land and reparations
• 16:12 – Trends among Black farmers and USDA misreporting
• 21:10 – Land reform and racial disparities in land ownership
• 23:09 – George Washington Carver and regenerative ag’s roots
• 25:45 – Anatomy of Injustice: New framework for understanding health & food
• 32:39 – Debt, payday loans, and direct health outcomes
• 39:32 – Deep medicine and indigenous epistemologies
• 46:08 – Ms. Washington’s account of food apartheid in the Bronx
• 50:33 – What people really need: Access
• 62:50 – Youth reclaiming identity and land through farming

Takeaways / Action Points

• Food apartheid more accurately names the intentional, systemic deprivation of access to healthy food.
• Solutions require land reform, reparations, training, community ownership, and cultural change—not just education or personal responsibility narratives.
• Regenerative agriculture draws from and should honor historical Black and indigenous practices.
• Real progress means investing in community-based food systems, removing barriers, and restoring land and food sovereignty.
• Medicine and public health must move beyond treating individual symptoms to dismantling structural causes—deep medicine.

If you haven’t listened, this episode provides an unflinching, deeply human look at the roots of food injustice—and the powerful, hopeful movements forging a more just future for land, health, and communities.